What really stands out with these incidents is that all the handwringing against the protests themselves and how they should be ‘doing it the right way’ is total bullshit.
Turns out direct action (up to and including violence) is justified… If you’re delayed getting somewhere in your car by 15 mins. However, nonviolent direct action about our own government dithering on the biggest crisis humanity has ever faced is too much.
It’s a bit late now, but what are people’s thoughts on whether this is the right community for this? It seems pretty political, even if it’s not about a political party.
That’s the question 😆. For this one, because they are directly campaigning the government to do something, it seemed political to me. But that’s what I’m seeking opinions on.
This one seems a lot more politically focused than say the article about the company intentionally damaging archeological sites that was posted earlier today.
Personally I don’t think it should have to go in politics, but then I don’t really mind political posts (even party political stuff, although already a bit over the election campaign!)
I didn’t see anyone doing jack fucking shit about Brian cult leader Tamaki blocking the motorway, so as far as I can tell, anyone can block the roads and it’s totally fine.
I totally understand people getting angry at this sort of thing… I’m 100% behind their cause, not so sure on their tactics.
But it’s just a shame that people are not as angry about the inaction on climate change. The inconvenience caused by the protesters is a micro-fraction of the pain that climate change is already causing and will continue to cause.
A lot of people don’t, no. And that’s the problem… which is why I was saying it’s a shame. We are in for far more grief than almost anyone realises… the scale of the effects is well outside what most people can really imagine. And it can be avoided if we take concerted action… even at this late stage. But we’re not.
Article literally says started just before 8, taken into custody at 815.
And yes, they got delayed 15 min. A well paid trade makes what - 60-80 and hour? Assault charges are now worth what… $15-20??? Can I now throw some around for a little less than dinner? For making roadworks? Because a meeting runs over by 15 min? There is no way to justify assault for a 15 min wait.
How much should we hate people who do road works or bicyclists or people who break down and cause delays. I am presuming you would support beating the shit out of them because you are a tradie and they cost you money and anybody who causes a tradie to lose money should be violently assaulted right?
Im sorry, opportunity cost? You mean what they gave up in exchange for that 15 minute wait? Literally the potential to make a portion of that $15-20 as profit? The happiness loss of a 15 minute delay? That is what you use to justify vehicular and physical assault.
So, let me go through this as I literally tutor opportunity cost - easiest way is to compare is divide what you give up vs what you get. I cant put happiness as a unit, so let’s go time.
Assaulting a person with a vehicle. Got you through a protest at best 15 minutes early - after the argument possibly closer to 8 or so, but let’s go instant result at say they were the first one and it got them through at the instant the protest started. You can argue plenty on the happiness gained from not being delayed, satisfaction of bullying someone, bragging stories over smoko, ego boost, but as I say no unit. They gained, at best, 15 minutes.
Now, looking at the summary of offenses act 1981 (113) S9 common assault, the maximum fine is 6 months imprisonment or a fine not exceeding $4000. Lets go half way, they got 3 months (12 weeks) prison, 12,960 minutes. They potentially gave up 12,960 minutes, and then have to go into the happiness discussion around missing kids and partners, loss of job, potentially loss of vehicle, standing in community, all that.
Gave up (12960 min) divided by what they got (15 minutes) - opportunity cost of 8064 what the got back from it.
It is worth noting that obstruction of public way is also covered in s22 - maximum fine of 1000 per person if not done for a good reason, and any good lawyer could argue climate change in real and possibly call self defense… if not, assault carried a higher financial cost that the three protests combined.
Now, because you clearly threw out a word that sounded good but you have no idea what it actually is, ill analyse the result in context for you. This is what is known as a no-win scenario, and the best strategy forward its to pick the one that costs you the least. Best case is to sit the fuck down, keep your fucking hands to yourself like we teach kids, let the cops do the job we pay them for, and maybe consider for one second these people are doing what they are doing because those with the money, big tradie cars and no education don’t give a flying fuck.
The whole purpose of protest is to be disruptive. Protests that don’t disrupt don’t get anything done because you will never hear about it and you won’t know about it. Who is going to report a protest that’s indistinguishable from everyday life?
I’m pretty sure they have specific demands, asking for better inter-city passenger trains. It says in the article the protesters are from the “Restore Passenger Rail climate action group”.
I don’t know their strategy, but if their intention is to get publicity for the cause then the term “it doesn’t matter what they are saying about you, as long as they’re talking about you” comes to mind.
I have heard anecdotally that when these sorts of protests are going on, the “mainstream” environmental organisations get a lot more interest. So it could be that it is actually working, even though most people don’t like the tactics.
They actually are quite specific in what they want, they want a restoration of all our intercity rail services, to a level of service that existed back in the nineties. It’s not about commuter rail, as many commenters here seem to think.
In other words, they want the government to spend a few hundred mill on rolling stock, and still more on other subsidies, on a service that would take nearly twice as long to go between Auckland and Wellington as a bus. They’ve completely lost touch with reality.
This is also ignoring the fact that diesel rail isn’t that much better than road transport, and can even be worse.
This is also ignoring the fact that diesel rail isn’t that much better than road transport, and can even be worse.
Huh? I mean sure, we should electrify all our rail. But moving hundreds of people in one diesel train produces way less emissions than hundreds of cars.
Bus is always going to be limited to whatever the road network can support, and face problems like traffic.
Rail can be improved way above what it is in NZ currently. It could be much faster than taking a car, as it is in many parts of the world. e.g. see: www.greaterauckland.org.nz/regional-rapid-rail/
Yes, indeed, diesel trains emit lower emissions when more than 1/3 full. See also #10here
And, diesel is not the final solution, but it’s a first step. If the protesters would ask for 100% electrified rail it would be shut down as well by opponents that it’s too hard. So I think it’s a very good option to switch to diesel rail for now.
In other words, they want the government to spend a few hundred mill on rolling stock, and still more on other subsidies, on a service that would take nearly twice as long to go between Auckland and Wellington as a bus.
Driving time WLG <=> AKL is about 7.5 hours. Assuming a 15 minute break every 2 hours, that’s about 8.5 hours. It’s 650km, so that’s about 76km/hour on average. I’m sure a train can go as fast / faster than that; definitely not <40km/hour like you suggest.
Yep as right now it’s a scenic route, so no focus on speed. I agree, right now it’s not a very good alternative to driving. That’s the point, that should be improved; it should be faster than driving.
Unfortunately it’s also only a matter of time before climate change gets worse - we’ve already seen what’s happening in the northern hemisphere. Regardless of who is in the road or what work you need to get to, hitting and carrying a person on the front of your car or assault deserves charges, especially as the cops cleared it in ~15 minutes anyway.
Saying that - protesting is also meant to get people on your side rather than just raise awareness. This one didn’t.
So you believe 15 minutes of delay justifies assault?
I mean, if you want to go that path carbon emissions is fucking with most of our livelihoods and its also a known, direct correction. Does that mean I can deck every tradie in a ranger?
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