If the most recent death toll wasn’t enough, here’s something else showing that they don’t really care about keeping an appearance, as well as another U.N. school, i don’t know what to say or do, everyone knows that they won’t destroy “Hamas” : https://i.postimg.cc/139jgD5v/Screenshot-2023-12-06-02-15-40-793-com-twitter-android-edit.jpg
If their goal was only to send a message, then there’s no point to be that extreme, the only reason left that i can see is that they want to keep the Gaza Strip, it’s always a bet but they considered that they’ll be allowed to(, in which case their security would indeed be increased by getting rid of all palestinians).
Their neighbours would have to be quite desperate to think that embracing Israel and the west is still their best option, but if they do it’d probably be for economic reasons, and/or perhaps fears of retaliations, i.d.k., we’ll see how it’ll evolve in the future, but i can’t believe that they would kill all of these people and destroy everything without a real goal, sending a pointless message isn’t one, nor is the unrealistic aim of destroying “Hamas”, i find it hard to imagine them simply going back to their side as if they accomplished something by pointlessly mass murdering thousands of childrens&humans on the other side of the wall, awful that this senseless option of a useless massacre is the most desirable.
i can’t believe that they would kill all of these people and destroy everything without a real goal
They say they're there to depose Hamas, I'm not sure why you say it's unrealistic. Game theory could support a harsh response, imposing a high cost should anyone consider future attacks against Israel's civilians. Netanyahu is very unpopular right now so it could also be a political move to appease voters who want some revenge/justice/catharsis.
imposing a high cost should anyone consider future attacks against Israel’s civilians.
Right now they’re giving gazans tens of thousands of reasons to want revenge against this bloodthirsty regime. They’re actually doing the opposite. Yes go devastate these people who have nothing left to lose, that’s definitely how you reduce extremism.
Pretend you are in charge of Israel, how would you have responded to the attack against your civilians? This was predictable, inevitable, and arguably the least bad choice.
Least bad choice… It’s sickening to me that you suggest there aren’t better ways to conduct war than to bomb hospitals, schools, and refugee camps. For a military that’s supposedly one of the best in the world to say 7000+ children needed to die is a joke. It’s incredibly obvious to any reasonable person.
Predictable? Yes, par for the course for this insanely violent and fascist regime.
It's par for the course for any nation that is attacked to counter-attack.
Inevitable? It’s well documented that the IOF ignored many warnings about the incoming Hamas resistance. Not only that, netanyahu funded Hamas to weaken the Palestinian cause weak and fractured.. Let’s start there.
I'm saying the response was inevitable, not the attack.
Least bad choice… It’s sickening to me that you suggest there aren’t better ways to conduct war than to bomb hospitals, schools, and refugee camps. For a military that’s supposedly one of the best in the world to say 7000+ children needed to die is a joke. It’s incredibly obvious to any reasonable person.
The alternative to going in with air support is sending in troops without it into a well prepared terrorist den where they would suffer high casualties. Yes, air strikes are the least bad choice for them. Israel essentially had to choose between the lives of its own people and the lives of people who live in a belligerent nation. That they didn't sacrifice their own for Palestinians, thereby making Israel less safe, should be unsurprising.
It's called war between nations, asymmetrical war but war nonetheless. They're not starving out Gaza and demanding civilians bring them hamas, they're going in there themselves.
If Gaza surrenders then terms like war crimes for collective punishment start making sense. Right now they have their own government which happens to be comprised of belligerent terrorists. Israel isn't leaving until that's no longer the case.
Yeah, it almost sounds like they've lost and they refused to concede, doesn't it? That's why they've resorted to Guerrilla warfare hiding among civilians.
They've been at war since 1948 and Palestine has yet to surrender, preferring instead intafada. We are seeing the consequences of that today.
Oh, look… the Fascist Apologetics Association is trying to blame Hamas for the actions of a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist state again.
What’s the matter? Have you run out of “human shields” to use as propaganda props?
I addressed elsewhere why calling Israel white supremacist and genocidal are not appropriate, but you're just going to repeat the same shit over and over again because you think it's shocking. I'm blocking you now because you're clearly not here in good faith, you're here to yell and scream and insult those who disagree. I hope you learn to be better one day
In my book bombing civilians is still called a war crime regardless of the supposed enemy you’re pretending to target. The excuse of collateral damage doesn’t even make sense, they shot artillery at the exact place they knew there would be civilians because they sent them there.
Also: Israel barely considers Palestine a country in the first place. How is this a “war between nations” and “actually not a warcrime at all” when one of the sides doing the warcrimes doesn’t even think their opponent has any sovereignty?
You're accusing them of intentionally targeting civilians, and I've yet to see any evidence of that. It's more accurate to say that Israel doesn't care much about collateral damage.
The excuse of collateral damage doesn’t even make sense, they shot artillery at the exact place they knew there would be civilians because they sent them there.
If Hamas was there too, it makes sense and it is in fact collateral damage. Israel will attack potential targets even if there's the slightest connection to Hamas. Evidently they built ai for this purpose, which gives them targets faster than they can bomb them.
Israel barely considers Palestine a country in the first place. How is this a “war between nations”
A nation is different than a country or a state. It just means a group of people with shared purpose. Israel disputes that Palestine is a state, not that it is a nation.
And they did have some limited sovereignty, they used it to attack Israeli civilians.
Well we don't know what would have happened on the other timeline where gaza didn't face consequences for electing Hamas.
Deterrence means there had to be reprisals even if you think things were brutal beforehand. They clearly got more brutal. Suggesting they should maintain the status quo after such an attack doesn't make sense to me.
Israel would have acted like the genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialism state it has been since it’s creation.
Israel has never been genocidal, for obvious reasons. If wiping out Palestinians were their goal, they certainly could do it more effectively, IDF is often warning people about incoming attacks, and publishing justifications for attacks.
The reason Palestine lost land was because they declared war on Israel and lost, refused to concede, declared war again, lost, refused to concede, then continued terrorist attacks against them for the next 60 years.
But sure just call it colonialism or genocide or whatever fucking buzzwords you think will get public opinion to give a shit about this group that absolutely caused their misery by remaining uncompromising, violent, and poking the bear every chance they get.
Significant percentages of Israelis are very non-white, but I know you're just doing mental backflips trying to inappropriately conflate Israel with their old enemies, the Nazis.
He’s the director of the World Health Organization, and many articles are talking about many U.N. schools, the most recent one has been linked to this video, and when you look at one of these schools, here, it’s not hard to imagine it being bombed in regard to the surrounding desolation. It’s more symbolic of their unwillingness to create safe zones than anything else, they even bombed refugee camps, and are used to kill innocent civilians in order to settle on their lands anyway.
You can’t depose Hamas, even if they managed to kill all of their leaders(, who don’t reside in the Gaza strip anyway), they’ll just elect new ones, i thought that this was obvious to everyone else. Even if Hitler was killed the third reich would have continued existing, the same goes for Israel if you kill Netanyahu, or the u.s.s.r. if you killed Stalin, there are a few modifications but the state doesn’t suddenly disappear, sry but i shouldn’t have to explain such obvious things and i’m afraid that a lot of other people think like you even if it’s so obviously delusional.
Game theory ? They were attacked because they stole these (holy )lands, and were continuing to steal more and more of them, committing atrocities almost every day(, or at least week,) in a complete silence from “the free world”. What’s the point, would killing 100 persons in retaliation deter palestinians from fighting back ? 1000 ? 3000 ? 5000 ? When does it stop ? I wouldn’t think that someone really say that the more Israel kills and the safer they’ll be, how could it make any sense, they’ll only be hated even more, do you think that they’re acting guided by their emotions when they’re expressing themselves so calmly ? Are palestinians allowed to “deter” israelis from acting like they do by killing even more of them ? Westerners had even more attacks on their territories once they wanted to “avenge” the first attacks by killing so much more people, in truth it’s obvious to almost everyone that vengeance wasn’t our goal, but our objectives were geopolitical, and were attained by burning everything held by the islamists, and torturing&killing the prisoners. I hope that they’re not thinking that their only way to prevent such attacks is to mass murder thousands of innocents, especially considering that their walls were effective for decades.
Netanyahu is already at the end of his political career, your explanation is awful if true, but i’ve already talked about the blinded desire for revenge without any aim, i can’t think that they’re only guided by emotions when acting so rationally, they’re head of states not teenagers in a video game, if they’re doing something like that it’s in order to gain something that couldn’t be obtained otherwise.
I don’t agree with you because i can’t see the point : is it really a blind/stupid desire of revenge ? Just killing innocents everywhere without any other goal than that ?
You can’t depose Hamas, even if they managed to kill all of their leaders(, who don’t reside in the Gaza strip anyway), they’ll just elect new ones
That has yet to be established, but it sounds like you're making a case for annexation. If they are unwilling to pacify themselves, that seems like the most humane remaining option that keeps Israel safe.
They were attacked because they stole these (holy )lands, and were continuing to steal more and more of them,
Those lands were annexed because Palestinians declared war on Israel and lost, funny how the anti-Israel crowd always conveniently forgets this and portrays the Palestinians as victims when they were absolutely the aggressors.
What’s the point, would killing 100 persons in retaliation deter palestinians from fighting back ? 1000 ? 3000 ? 5000 ?
If they are reasonable, yes it would. It would encourage them to find a path to peace. Perhaps they are not reasonable, their history of poking the bear, popular support of intifada and a one-state solution where they deny rights to Jews certainly seems to indicate an unwillingness to compromise, which led to their present situation.
I have much to learn by talking with a pro-israeli, my sincere thanks for engaging.
[The claim that “if you kill their leaders they’ll just elect new ones”] has yet to be established
As i said with Benjamin Netanyahu : killing him won’t destroy Israel, just as killing their leaders wouldn’t destroy Hamas.
We have to solve the root of the problem, because “Hamas”(palestinians) have the moral high ground here, « If israelis are unwilling to pacify themselves, the destruction of Israel seems like the most humane remaining option that keeps Palestine safe. », wouldn’t you agree ?
« Palestine was annexed because israelis declared war on Palestine and won, funny how the Anti-Palestine crowd always conveniently forgets this and portrays the israelis as victims when they were absolutely the aggressors. »
« If israelis are reasonable, yes [killing them would be enough to deter them from killing more palestinians and occupying (more&more of )their land]. It would encourage them to find a path to peace. Perhaps they are not reasonable, their history of poking the bear, popular support of settlers and a one-state solution where they deny rights to palestinians certainly seems to indicate an unwillingness to compromise, which led to their present situation. »
I can’t understand how you could paint the israelis as the victims here : they were the ones who stole the lands(, and are continuing to steal more of it), they’re killed way less than they’re killing, both before and after Oct.7, with less material destructions, yet i can’t wish for them to permanently excuse themselves for existing, even if they should. There’s a few solutions possible other than a two-state solution, i can only regret that public debates don’t turn around this research of solutions instead of simply supporting one side, the anger of palestinians is legitimate, but what’s the plan. Israel is asking for a lot and can’t offer much in exchange, if i was arab i could consider that such weird locations could have a weird civilization different from the rest there, after all the muslims have expanded so much that they could accept to ‘paint in another color’/~lose one of their heart, but not without consequences for israelis/westerners, it should result at the very least in a huge boost for the ummah, something deemed worthwhile by all of them, which won’t happen since we(sterners) won’t give any of our “hearts”.
A crazy idea would be to plan for all countries to ally together in order to colonize and terraform Mars(, with commitments to certain realizations), from 2070 to 2177 for instance(, or longer if necessary), and our collective effort will be entirely done in order to give the whole planet Mars to countries claiming to be islamic. It’s a good situation in the solar system, and despite many problems and uncertainties could be deemed a huge gain without being more than a financial loss for other countries. Other possibilities exist even if this one may seem/be far-fetched.
the aggressors ... they’re killed way less than they’re killing, both before and after Oct.7,
Casualties inflicted is not necessarily indicative of aggression. I say that Palestine is the aggressor not because they have a higher body count, but because they literally started the conflict, both by instigating the earliest massacres against Jews in mandatory Palestine, making a one state solution impossible, by declaring war on Israel with their Arab allies in '48, and later trying it again unsuccessfully in the 6-day war. They also instigated this latest reprisal even though their attack wasn't as effective as Israel's response.
Just because Israel's self-defense is way more effective than Palestine's constant attacks against them does not mean they are the aggressors. They didn't start this fight, but they consistently respond to attacks and threats quite effectively as they are on the winning side of asymmetrical combat.
they were the ones who stole the lands(, and are continuing to steal more of it),
Jews started out legally buying lands in Mandatory Palestine until they were massacred and had war waged on them on when they declared statehood. Any lands annexed is a result of this.
There’s a few solutions possible other than a two-state solution
No doubt, I wish their appreciation for realpolitik was as great as their anger, because that's how one finds a path out of this situation; rationality and compromise and diplomacy and logic. Anger will not change their situation, it has led to things being this way.
Israel is asking for a lot and can’t offer much in exchange
They are asking for security and a return of hostages, and they have a lot of freedoms and land they can offer if Palestine is willing and able to deliver it. Because they are bargaining from a position of strength Israel probably won't have to make as many diplomatic concessions for a viable peace. The alternative, of course, is that they remain belligerent, continue intafada, settlements continue and Palestine is eventually annexed entirely. Palestine should really be trying to make a viable peace lest they end up with nothing.
it should result at the very least in a huge boost for the ummah, something deemed worthwhile by all of them
If ummah were a factor here I suspect Egypt wouldn't be keeping Rafah closed, they clearly care more about using them as pawns with claims to land than they do the lives of Gazans stuck there. While there is only one Jewish state there are many Arab/Islamic ones in the area and none of them seem willing to help Palestine, probably because those who did historically suffered for it with military losses, coups, and terrorist organizations operating within their borders.
our collective effort will be entirely done in order to give the whole planet Mars to countries claiming to be islamic.
This is the first time I've heard, "send Muslims to Mars," pitched as a solution. Somehow I don't think they'll go for it.
Jews started out legally buying lands in Mandatory Palestine until they were massacred and had war waged on them on when they declared statehood. Any lands annexed was a result of this.
The Ottoman Empire forbade them to buy these lands during the XIXth century, and would never have accepted the british decisions, were the arabs just supposed to let them declare statehood ?
Polling indicates Palestinians want intifada and a one-state solution where Jews are denied equal rights, and they outnumber Israelis.
And what do israelis want ? A two-states solution ? Why won’t they put an end to the settlements then, and why is it anything else than a net gain for them and a loss for palestinians ?
What are the compromises that we(sterners) are making ?
Anger will not change their situation, it has led to it being this way.
The anger of israelis led to them killing thousands of people, no ?
But yeah, you’re probably right, i don’t really know what they expected, some kind of victory perhaps, they’re at war as well, and seized an occasion.
If ummah were a factor here I suspect Egypt wouldn’t be keeping Rafah closed, they clearly care more about using them as pawns with claims to land than they do the lives of Gazans stuck there.
If Egypt cared about palestinians they would help Israel in deporting them ?
While there is only one Jewish state there are many Arab/Islamic ones in the area and none of them seem willing to help Palestine, probably because those who did suffered for it with coups and terrorist organizations within their borders.
Most of them are still suffering because of their support/principles. Every single one of them is willing to help Palestine, but the more you’re trying to put pressure and the more you’re exposing your citizens for reprisals, so the extent of their actions may vary, i still think that they could win but what do i know really.
(And realpolitik don’t look at morals, it is machiavelism, looking for what’s fair/right/virtuous and then the realist ways to do this seems a better practice)
The Ottoman Empire forbade them to buy these lands during the XIXth century, and would never have accepted the british decisions, were the arabs just supposed to let them declare statehood ?
Yes. You skipped a few steps in there though, the Ottomans were deposed, the British allowed them to buy land, Arab nationalists started massacring Jews because they didn't like them legally buying land, a 2-state solution became impossible, the UN divided them into countries because of this, Israel declared themselves a country with the borders the UN drew, Palestinian Arabs declared war on them and tried to destroy their state, they lost, and those were were belligerent or left had lands annexed (Nakba.) Not murdering your peaceful neighbors for legally buying seems like a low bar to clear, as does letting them have their own home where you can't murder them. If they had remained peaceful the levant might be one multiethnic country today. Heck, if they had stopped trying to murder the Jews at any time for the past 70 years Palestine might not be in this situation.
And what do israelis want ? A two-states solution ?
Good question, I'd be interested to see polling on this matter if you've read any.
Why won’t they put an end to the settlements then
Probably because:
It puts pressure on Palestine to negotiate for viable peace because if they don't they will lose everything.
If Palestine is unwilling to pacify themselves, the distance created from slow annexation via settlers will eventually create safety for Israel via distance from belligerent nations hostile to them.
Dismantling the settlements in Gaza as part of their 2005 unilateral withdrawal didn't work out so well for Israel in hindsight.
why is it anything else than a net gain for them and a loss for palestinians ?
These nations are at war, which is arguably a zero-sum game. Israel is negotiating from a place of strength, which means they can further their own interests far more effectively than Palestine can.
What are the compromises that we(sterners) are making ?
I don't follow. Why should westerners make any compromises, and for whom?
The anger of israelis led to them killing thousands of people, no ?
They were able to do that because of a modern military, not because of anger.
But yeah, you’re probably right, i don’t really know what they expected, some kind of victory perhaps, they’re at war as well, and seized an occasion.
A Pyrrhic victory at best, given the destruction the attack has caused their nation.
If Egypt cared about palestinians they would help Israel in deporting them ?
If Egypt cared more about Palestinian lives than land claims and putting pressure on Israel, they would let Gazans voluntarily leave en masse, (even if Egypt were not their final destination;) deportation implies they are forced to leave.
Most of them are still suffering because of their support/principles. Every single one of them is willing to help Palestine, but the more you’re trying to put pressure and the more you’re exposing your citizens for reprisals, so the extent of their actions may vary, i still think that they could win but what do i know really.
The kinds of "help" they are offering are very limited, diplomatic stuff mostly. Many of the surrounding countries that let Palestinians stay have to deal with terror groups launching attacks on Israel from within their borders and reprisals, like Hezbollah in Lebanon who are now part of the government. The PLO caused civil war in Jordan when too many Palestinians settled there.
Every Arab nation that went to war with Israel on behalf of Palestine got their asses handed to them, and many lost territory for it. That's how Egypt lost Gaza (which they no longer want back, refusing it in the Camp David accords.)
(And realpolitik don’t look at morals, it is machiavelism, looking for what’s fair/right/virtuous and then the realist ways to do this seems a better practice)
It's good to have morals, but morals don't win wars, nor does righteousness. Acknowledging the reality of one's political and military situation is nessicary if one is to improve the situation of their nation.
Your answer for the past is that Israel should have been allowed to take “back” these (holy )lands, important for all the “children” of Abraham, perhaps that the arabs are also attached to these lands and would prefer to see them ruled by arabs/muslims, and not israelis/jews, they also had/have an importance for christians(, crusades). If they ever agree to lose one of their “hearts”, then fairness would require to give one of our “hearts” in exchange to palestinians(, with a lot of money, e.g. 0.1% of the g.d.p. of every country for a year, as well as the promise to leave the Middle-East alone, to lift sanctions, to ensure the security&’total separation’ of both Israel and this state, etc.)
I think that it is the root of our disagreement, you’re starting from their right to take these lands to explain that the sins done by Israel were necessary(, if so are they still sins ?,) since they had hostile neighbours who wanted their destruction. Destroying Israel would be awful, but destroying Palestine is justified because they didn’t accepted Israel in the first place. Perhaps, i think that their desire to expand their borders is more important than their desire for security, but to get back to the “root” of our disagreement, you’ve seen that i’m not among those who want israelis to g.t.f.o., but i can’t blame those who do(, would you have accepted if they took one of our “hearts” by force ? It’s not Mecca or Medina but still).
You may think that it’s not such a big deal to take/keep these lands, perhaps you’re right, everything is relative, then perhaps that in the same sense it wouldn’t be such a big deal to give them a territory as well(, it could be the occasion to seal an alliance).
If you’d like a one sentence summary : You probably wouldn’t have accepted it either if islamists took a portion in the heart of our lands, not by might at least, but possibly if you/we were given something which would ‘be satisfying’/‘made it acceptable’.
Now that i think about it, i can’t resolve myself to say that they don’t have any legitimate right to revive their culture on their ancient lands(, still don’t agree with their refusal to be christian or muslim as well though, John and Muhammad ﷺ were prophets, the disagreements aren’t worth such profound schism, we follow Abraham, and more importantly (virtues and )God, christianity and judaism could be considered as sects of islam, or all of them sects of abrahamism(, that’s diversity without unity here)), but i know that we(sterners) wouldn’t owe arabs anything in exchange if it was totally just/fair to take these lands, so i’ll stay with my conclusion : the problem isn’t that Israel’s existence isn’t accepted by palestinians&muslims, but that we didn’t made its existence acceptable, in other words it’s up to us to make this right.
You’ll probably say that we won’t make their loss acceptable, then i don’t see why they should accept it, or why they should care if Israel disappears, if it’s the law of the strongest then they have a chance to win( for all i know).
I appreciate your tone and demeanor, it's nice to have a civil discussion with someone who disagrees, especially in this domain where emotions can run so hot.
Your answer for the past is that Israel should have been allowed to take “back” these (holy )lands, ... perhaps that the arabs are also attached to these lands and would prefer to see them ruled by arabs/muslims, and not israelis/jews, they also had/have an importance for christians(, crusades). ... You may think that it’s not such a big deal to take/keep these lands, perhaps you’re right, everything is relative,
I know that's the motivation for many Jews and Muslims, I don't personally care about ancient claims nor do I believe they are very relevant to the present conflict. What matters more is who controls it now, and fighting over holy cities just ensures that this will never end because it's hard to compromise with people who believe God is on their side and granted them access to specific lands. On some level I think the world would be better off if neither party had Jerusalem and it was independent, like the original partition plan called for, but now that ship has sailed and Israel controls it. I don't see this changing any time soon.
If they ever agree to lose one of their “hearts”, then fairness would require to give one of our “hearts” in exchange to palestinians(, with a lot of money, e.g. 0.1% of the g.d.p. of every country for a year, as well as the promise to leave the Middle-East alone, to lift sanctions, to ensure the security&’total separation’ of both Israel and this state, etc.)
Unfortunately I don't think any of that is viable except perhaps for the security and separation part, it would be hard for the losing side to get the winning side to agree to such terms and pay war reparations for a war they didn't start and won.
I think that it is the root of our disagreement, you’re starting from their right to take these lands to explain that the sins done by Israel were necessary(, if so are they still sins ?,) since they had hostile neighbours who wanted their destruction.
I'm not sure they have the right, legally speaking annexation hasn't been legal internationally since WWII although it still happens, but it's certainly justifiable in the name of self-defense. Returning territories while their enemy remains belligerent seems like a bad strategy. The problem is that war is not a transitory state in this part of the world like the UN assumes are their nature, it is a permanent condition. Palestine refuses to concede despite being defeated time and time again. From the polling I've seen, most Palestinians don't want to compromise for anything less than the '48 lands back with a one-state solution they control, which is a non-starter. International laws regarding war seem to be written with the idea that wars end when peace is sued for, and this conflict doesn't fit into that mold because of a desire for endless resistance regardless of realpolitik.
Destroying Israel would be awful, but destroying Palestine is justified because they didn’t accepted Israel in the first place. ... then perhaps ... it wouldn’t be such a big deal to give them a territory as well(, it could be the occasion to seal an alliance).
I don't think either should be destroyed, but that's probably what will happen if Palestine doesn't surrender and pacify itself. Endless intifada will just push Israel to keep responding to violence with harsh responses and annexations, and they hold all the cards militarily speaking. If I were in charge, I think the best solution would be to eventually make the entire west bank the state of Palestine, contiguous and autonomous, provided it remains peaceful. This is not possible while the population wants revenge more than viable peace.
Perhaps, i think that their desire to expand their borders is more important than their desire for security,
Strive for peace based on a two-state solution: 36%
Strive to annex the West Bank and establish a single state with privileged status for Jews: 28%
Strive to annex the West Bank and establish one state with full equal rights for all: 11%
Don't know: 25%
You probably wouldn’t have accepted it either if islamists took a portion in the heart of our lands, not by might at least, but possibly if you/we were given something which would ‘be satisfying’/‘made it acceptable’.
Certainly I can understand their outrage, but how to logically respond would depend upon a nation's ability to change that situation. I'm reminded of the saying, "give me strength to change what I cannot accept and wisdom to accept what I cannot change."
Certainly I can understand their outrage, but how to logically respond would depend upon a nation’s ability to change that situation.
We’re arriving at the end of the discussion then, because we can argue about their chances but in the end none of us (can pretend to )know.s the future. Here’s why i think that the law of the strongest doesn’t necessarily work against them :
Afghanistan is the best modern example of people who won against impossible odds.
Since you mentioned “realpolitik”, and while you may have heard of it before, you could have heard it again recently with John Mearsheimer and others during the war in Ukraine, it is linked to Afghanistan in that, if all ukrainians were (traitors )like those in eastern Galicia, i doubt that Russia could have kept these territories : they would have had to face constant “terrorism” by more numerous inhabitants.
In the same spirit, wars for decolonization could also count as other examples of successful fights against overwhelming odds.
Yet when i’m thinking of such examples it’s about locals united in their perception of foreign armies as the enemy, and couldn’t be applied for Israel(, not occupied by a majority of locals/palestinians).
Even without that, they can win(, i.d.k. if they will,) if the ummah was united.
If it wasn’t enough of a weight(, i doubt it), they would certainly change the scale by uniting with Africa, the rest of Asia, Russia, and also South America. That’d mean even more coups by the west in order to keep control, and then by the rest, we(sterners) are lucky that they’re still closer to us.
(What interest me more is whether they should win(, and on what terms), the law of the strongest shouldn’t matter, but even through that lens, )Here’s a (naive )picture of how it could happen :
they’ll throw a lot of propaganda to make their citizens f*cking hate to death israelis, painting them as monsters by recycling their war crimes and implying that they’re doing so because they’re evils, not because they want to survive, antisemitism could also help in that ;
they’ll progressively cut all economic ties with the west as long as we dont accept their request, and have prepared beforehand as much as they can to withstand sanctions/‘economic war’ ;
they’ll strengthen their link and, this is important, pledge publicly and repeatedly that they’ll invade each other if(when) someone is elected(, or placed after a coup,) that intend to break this oath ;
they’ll regularly make military threats to Israel, but without acting upon it unless they know how to get rid of the bomb, so mostly to mark a point before diplomatic meetings and eventually take a habit of strengthening popular support like that, rejoicing in the fear that they think it may bring israelis, and of the coming day when they’ll conquer back their lands, as well as enact laws against israelis or even perhaps westerners ;
…
If ‘fairness is excluded’/‘might makes right’/‘the only factor is strength’, then they’re not weak.
Only God would know how to solve this situation in the most perfect manner(, ideally if we were perfect/‘never doing anything that another being would consider bad for h.er.im’ then we wouldn’t rely on states, laws, borders, …, for protection, just freely join and leave communities with their own rules and paradise would come unto Earth, lands wouldn’t belong to anyone and we wouldn’t possess anything else, only living to do good to each other, but since we’re not perfect it’s useless to point that out(, Israel would be destroyed if they acted like that, and Palestine wouldn’t be recovered, and more generally societies would collapse, Christ is/shows the Way but if the other don’t also believe that he’s one with you it obviously quickly becomes useless, sry for the unproductive rambling).
Afghanistan is the best modern example of people who won against impossible odds.
Israel is literally fighting for its existence and has nowhere to retreat to should they lose. Afghanistan, like Vietnam, was not an existential threat to the US. It's not really comparable because of this.
Since you mentioned “realpolitik”, and while you may have heard of it before, you could have heard it again recently with John Mearsheimer and others during the war in Ukraine, it is linked to Afghanistan in that, if all ukrainians were (traitors )like those in eastern Galicia, i doubt that Russia could have kept these territories : they would have had to face constant “terrorism” by more numerous inhabitants.
Ukraine is also fighting for its existence.
Realpolitik just means acknowledging the political realities of their situation. Political realism.
Guerilla warfare can sometimes be effective, however I do not believe this approach will lead to victory against Israel. They have been dealing with terrorism/intifada relatively effectively for the past 70 years and have built a sophisticated system that insulates them from Palestinian belligerents. While it failed spectacularly on Oct7, I don't suspect that will happen again. The only domain where Palestinians seem to be able to gain territory is in the court of public opinion.
In the same spirit, wars for decolonization could also count as other examples of successful fights against overwhelming odds.
Even without that, they can win(, i.d.k. if they will,) if the ummah was united.
Wasn't that what happened in '48 and '67? It didn't work out well for other nations who went to war on their behalf. Israel is much stronger now than it was then.
If it wasn’t enough of a weight(, i doubt it), they would certainly change the scale by uniting with Africa, the rest of Asia, Russia, and also South America. That’d mean even more coups by the west in order to keep control, and then by the rest, we(sterners) are lucky that they’re still closer to us.
Interesting
I believe you are overestimating both international support for Palestine and the military capabilities of most African and South American nations.
Palestinian resistance groups are getting support from Iran, who is using them as a proxy, but most of their Arabic neighbors recognize that making an ally of the United States and the EU is far more strategically valuable than backing this group that wants endless war and seeking unreasonable demands. Hamas launched this attack because Saudi Arabia was about to recognize Israel, after all, and SA is dependent upon the US for security. If they alienate the US they have Iran to contend with.
Russia has its own issues right now and cannot afford another front, and there are many Russian Jews in Israel. Given their behaviors in Chechnya, they do not seem to be sympathetic to Muslims.
If ‘fairness is excluded’/‘might makes right’/‘the only factor is strength’, then they’re not weak.
It is not the only factor but it is the most relevant one in this conflict, because it's so very asymmetrical.
Only God would know how to solve this situation in the most perfect manner
If such creatures exist, they haven't weighed in, which is curious given that Allah/Yahweh supposedly care so much about their followers and who controls their holy cities. Funny how gods are always concerned with the same things that their followers and the men who claim to speak for them are, rather than what I'd expect from omnipotent creatures beyond our understanding. It would be like humans trying to control ant societies in our backyards, why would we care?
freely join and leave communities with their own rules and paradise would come unto Earth
I hope we get there one day, albeit through secular means.
Israel is literally fighting for its existence and has nowhere to retreat to should they lose. Afghanistan, like Vietnam, was not an existential threat to the US. It’s not really comparable because of this.
Really? ? A bunch of half starved poorly armed guerrillas are an “existential threat” to Israel? Get the fuck outta here with that bullshit.
Come on, if you are gonna try to be the one calling for rational discourse you have got to at least try not to be so intellectually dishonest.
A bunch of half starved poorly armed guerrillas are an “existential threat” to Israel?
They are unlikely to win but if they did, yes, the consequences would be existential. It wasn't long ago that Israel was the underdog in this conflict.
One of the most modern and well funded militaries in the world backed by the world superpower VS guys with ak-47s of vietnam era vintage. You cannot be serious.
If you really think this is true that Israel would be defeated by hamas you are beyond rational discussion and of in some fantasy world of victimhood.
Spare me your insults.
How bout you spare me your inane fictions and we can talk. If you cannot manage that then just piss off.
Because they don’t have the means to fight back and win. Because if they insist on intifada they will end up with nothing. --DarkGamer
They are unlikely to win but if they did, yes, the consequences would be existential. It wasn’t long ago that Israel was the underdog in this conflict. --DarkGamer
So they are both weak and strong. Hrm right out of the fascists handbook.
Keep telling us who you are when you get back from your goose-stepping practice.
I noticed the zionists seem to like saying that gaza isn’t being carpet bombed and such so how do you explain :
“Dresden, Hamburg, Cologne — some of the world’s heaviest-ever bombings are remembered by their place names,” said Robert Pape, a US military historian and author of Bombing to Win, a landmark survey of 20th century bombing campaigns. “Gaza will also go down as a place name denoting one of history’s heaviest conventional bombing campaigns.” from the financial times (non paywalled no excuses link archive.ph/DSZ1b/ )
They even have pretty graphs showing how it is worse.
Oh and since you seem to think TIME is an issue for me tell me how fast was WW2 vs everything since Oct 7?? Nevermind I’ll just tell you since your propaganda addled brain (yea that’s an insult you dipshit) will try to block it out. “By contrast, over the space of two years, between 1943 and 1945, the Allied bombing of 61 major German cities razed an estimated 50 per cent of their urban areas, according to Pape.”
Odd how these things seem bad even in the light of history, maybe Israel can get all the way to # 1 on the charts!!!
Hi,
I was thinking about what you said.
In a word, you were saying that if Israel’s enemies take every necessary step to ensure Israel’s safety in a permanent manner, then a two-states solution(, including giving back the “illegal” settlements,) could be envisioned, that’s a unilateral loss enabled by the law of the strongest. An inversed unilateral loss, in favor of the pro-palestinians, would see them taking back the holy lands. And a balanced exchange would have those who take(, western countries,) give something back(, of equal value,) in exchange.
At least expressed like that the first unilateral loss doesn’t seem more moral than the second one, but it is true that this loss can be more or less important(, e.g., disparition of Palestine, or a two-state solution, or only a jewish territory in a small part of the current israeli territory). Yet the second choice could(should?) also be seen as the most moral of the three, when it takes the year 1900 as a baseline for saying that Israel’s destruction is a neutral gain/loss for both sides(, instead of a unilateral gain/loss for one of them if we take the year 1960 as a baseline).
I’m in favor of making a trade by giving something worthwhile in exchange of the holy lands, but as you pointed out this is unrealistic, so let the strongest prevail i guess.
“I do agree that palestinians could get back the new settlements of the last decades and end any future palestinian persecution if they&‘their allies’ recognise Israel” is what i wanted to add, not sure that we would have followed the path of least resistance if the roles were reversed, but as you said giving them something of equal value in exchange is out of question
It’s just an addition, please don’t feel any obligation to answer, and thanks for the chat
Afghanistan, like Vietnam, was not an existential threat to the US. It’s not really comparable because of this.
It’s not comparable because the disparition of Israel would be an existential threat to the u.s. ?
Realpolitik just means acknowledging the political realities of their situation. Political realism.
Without discussing what should be, only how to do it(, and usually without considering the morality of the path taken, only its assumed effectiveness, there’re reasons to believe that Machiavel wrote The Prince as a criticism and not a support b.t.w.).
If i remember correctly J.Mearsheimer liked realism for its predictive power.
Guerilla warfare can sometimes be effective, however I do not believe this approach will lead to victory against Israel
Only because Israel’s territory isn’t populated by palestinians, which is why i mentionned Ukraine, whose annexed/liberated territories aren’t anti-russians like in eastern Galicia, perhaps because they believe that Russia is large enough to become a.n ‘future continent’/‘original culture’ by itself, and want to believe in this idea, and/or perhaps for other reasons. But w/e.
For Israel this isn’t a fight to colonize, it’s a fight to exist. There are many Arab nations that could take in Palestinians, not so for Jews.
They can go in “the first&free world” if that’s your argument.
And they’re colonizing more territories because it’s a fight to exist ?
As this comment pointed out : palestinians are at most a threat in the future, but aren’t strong enough currently to be deemed a serious threat, a fight for survival implies an enemy strong enough to kill you, and as you previously recognised, if we’re only talking about palestinians, then they’re not there( yet).
Israelis were relatively safe all these decades(, compared to their neighbours), and i could only imagine that Palestine’s destruction would enhance their security if arabs/muslims accept it and refuse to stand for palestinians, and if israelis stop there, because they would still have to invade/coup such countries as Iran or political movements such as Hezbollah, and would continue as long as they’re not accepted.
If you presented Israel’s survival as ‘a moral argument’/‘what should be’, which would probably not be “realist” to do so, then i could return the same argument for palestinians, and ask you why you don’t support the intifada on these same moral grounds, but you more likely said that to explain their motivation and give an estimation of their strength/resolve.
I believe you are overestimating both international support for Palestine and the military capabilities of most African and South American nations
As you saw afterwards, i wasn’t talking of a military fight, but of a.n economic&diplomatic one(, even if coups generally imply a military role, sometimes bloodless but very often not).
most of their Arabic neighbors recognize that making an ally of the United States and the EU is far more strategically valuable than backing this group that wants endless war and seeking unreasonable demands.
Unreasonable because they won’t ever win ? Well, who knows ?
I don’t see them supporting Israel and abandoning palestinians(, only Morocco’s gains would be significant, yet they’re still seemingly hesitant), i’ll agree that they still have a margin of retaliation/pressure towards the west though, perhaps are they forced to wait for a more opportune time to act or, as you said, have accepted such unconditional loss, not sure that we would have if the roles were reversed. As previously mentioned, they wouldn’t win anything by complying, and i don’t see clearly the extent of what they’d lose by resisting(, some could include their honor or other immaterial examples).
Hamas launched this attack because Saudi Arabia was about to recognize Israel, after all, and SA is dependent upon the US for security. If they alienate the US they have Iran to contend with.
In my opinion Saudi Arabia has more reasons to be afraid of the u.s.a.&co than of Iran, since, except for the Gulf monarchies, every single one of their neighbours ‘has been’/‘is being’ destroyed : the color revolutions, Mohamed Morsi, Lybia, Sudan, Eritrea, Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Syria, and even Lebanon is in an economic crisis(, and kinda Türkiye as well), you just have to open a map and list every country. If we’re going a bit further then we have Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nagorno-Karabakh, almost all countries destroyed by the west, and i haven’t counted kurd separatists or the islamic state, it’s not a stretch to think that they desire stability, but what a f*cking world, we don’t understand that, Ethiopia, Somalia, Kenya, Congo, Chad, Niger, central asian republics, Georgia, …, these countries seems far away, if the realist choice is just to always follow the strongest regardless of what’s right/fair, then i don’t want to be a realist.
Russia has its own issues right now and cannot afford another front
Is there a single non-western country more active than them around the world currently ?
Given their behaviors in Chechnya, they do not seem to be sympathetic to Muslims.
As if they didn’t lose enough historical territory in 1991, V.Putin’s party isn’t called United Russia for nothing, of course we(sterners) supported the separatists terrorists(, but hated them when these “orks” fought on the side of Russia&’south-eastern ukrainians’ recently).
The first hostage released by Hamas was an israeli who also had a russian nationality, and there were other gestures if this kind of things matter, the timing of the l.g.b.t. ban may perhaps also be linked in some way, i.d.k.(, they also have their own muslim republics in the russian federation, Chechnya is apparently very homophobic, and it’s not only inside their borders or in the Middle-East, but in Africa as well), just to say that i wouldn’t count on their islamophobia.
If such creatures exist, they haven’t weighed in
The (uncaused )Cause is the only being which isn’t a creature(, and the only to be the Being), i don’t think a direct visible interference would be that desirable, everything would just be solved and there wouldn’t be anything else to do, i prefer to feel free, but in any case there’s always determinism and God as the Cause for this kind of interrogation.
It would be like humans trying to control ant societies in our backyards, why would we care?
Not sure that despite our imperfection we wouldn’t be a part of the All/One, and there’s always the law of karma among other laws of our reality, parts of the All do care, and if we look/seek the Greatest we/ants do care.
I hope we get there one day, albeit through secular means.
You didn’t wrote that to imply that we should only get there through secular means(, by fighting other paths), but i find interesting that we fight communism and islamism : apart from these two, and royalism, do you know of a single large ideology that survived the colonization and isn’t the western one of a constitutional capitalist secular republic ?
I wrote about these communities with their own rules because i feel that we’re unfortunately looking for unity at the expense of diversity, instead of looking for a permanent peace in harmony, ensuring both our unity and our diversity, we’re not looking towards this direction, and there’s even this selfish nationalism saying that it’s not our role to help each other, i can’t like it, we should aim to live together.
ah yes, game theory, the every man’s justification for the flavor of foreign policy made popular by the literal Nazis, yes Realpolitik (in this context) was heavily pushed by Nazis and war criminals the world over, after all it thrives on homogenizing any groups, justifies collateral punishments, along with expansionist empires, and oppressing minority populations.
Game theory & realpolitik = Nazis? Also absurd. You don't seem to have a good understanding of what defined the Nazis, because you keep invoking them for ridiculous comparisons. Hitler liked puppies, liking puppies does not make one meaningfully Hitler-like.
I'm talking about acknowledging the reality of their situation and the likely behaviors and reactions of each actor. Game theory & realpolitik. Something every nation should do.
game theory in the realm of international relations is just an attempt to quantify realpolitik, and should have little if no place in advising the actions of moral society.
And other than of course the fact that Realpolitik is heavily influenced by and influenced the works of prominent Nazi thinkers such as Rosenberg, it justifies the imperialistic conquest and even genocide of one’s neighbor should they not align with your political will, it is a failed ideology that spawns only evil, literally.
Realpolitik is the approach of conducting diplomatic or political policies based primarily on considerations of given circumstances and factors, rather than strictly following ideological, moral, or ethical premises. In this respect, it shares aspects of its philosophical approach with those of realism and pragmatism. It is often simply referred to as pragmatism in politics, e.g. "pursuing pragmatic policies" or "realistic policies". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik
Acknowledging political realities isn't owned by nor generally associated with Nazism. In fact their downfall can be attributed to not acknowledging political realities due to batshit racial theories. Even in Germany, realpolitik predates them and is generally associated with Otto Von Bismarck. You're reaching, obviously incorrect, and unwilling to admit it. Maybe next time don't be so quick to invoke Godwin's law.
Their neighbours would have to be quite desperate to think that embracing Israel and the west is still their best option, but if they do it’d probably be for economic reasons, and/or perhaps fears of retaliation
Not quite. Israel managed to get the Arab states on their side, and the US is helping using aid (this is why Egypt is helping Israel in its blockade of Gaza, for instance). Arab leaders aren't victims of an oppressive international order; they're willing traitors.
When you look at the amount of suffering other countries in the region, all anti-zionists, had/have to go through, i won’t blame some of them to conclude that it’d be better for everyone to just draw a line on the past and accept Israel.
They may think that they’re entitled to something in exchange, but that they’re not united/strong enough to impose their will or ‘reject their alliance with’/‘put more&more pressure on’ the west. So be it then if it’s a sacrifice worth making.
I don’t get what happens in this comment section. Do we now support terrorists that was bombing Israel for years? If yes, do we also support nazi cause they also genocide jews? I’m so confuse :c
Is that hard? I mean sure the world might be more complicated but regardless of that the above seems like a very consistent and simple starting point of an opinion? It seems easier to start with “don’t bomb people” as a starting point than “don’t bomb some people” as a starting point.
That basically one thing. You can’t just “stop”, cause Palestinian civilians = Hamas. There a cult of people that supports killing jews, called islam, and most “civilians” into it. The one who was disagree - flee to nearby countries or died from hands of Hamas. How simple is that? You can’t just leave Hamas “as is”, cause they will simply start over again, by bombing jews, so, what your proposal? Kill all jews instead or help Hamas by gatekeeping Israel? There is no simple solution. Also, when russia started genocide in Ukraine, everyone was against that, but when Hamas attacked Israel and did genocide of jews, everyone supports that. Fuck is that trickery?
Things that should be relatively non controversial:
There’s no simple solution.
Palestinian civilians is not equal to Hamas.
Hamas is a terror organisation
Israel army is currently exercising too much violence on Palestinians
Israel clearly has the military advantage.
More vague points:
That puts most of the responsibility of how the situation develops in Israel hands. They can’t change the minds of the Palestinians. But they have the power to minimise total harm. They should be able to keep a lower rate of casualties on the Palestinian side without significantly increasing casualties on the Israeli side? No?
the IDF has probable intel that there may or may not be a member of Hamas in that crowd, thus they are human shields and the IDF is clean of all wrong doing
Hmm, reminds me of several middle eastern countries where the Jewish population now sits at 0% because literally every single one was either murdered or expelled.
Probably had something to do with them declaring war on Israel. Some were driven out, some left voluntarily. Those who stayed and were not belligerent seem to be fairing much better than those who keep trying to kill Israelis.
Jordan did the same shit in the West Bank when they won, funny how they have different rules I guess.
Oh look… another one of Ben Shapiro’s copium clients.
Buying en masse, too?
Why don’t you go ahead and explain to the rest of us why the person you are defending is running interference for a white supremacist settler-colonialist state, then?
This is literally an extermination program being done with missiles instead of gas chambers, there’s no other reason to lie about safe areas to civilians and use it to collect them in the same place to kill as many as possible. This is literally how the germans used the death showers in concentration camps.
Israel has been very clear that they will attack Hamas targets no matter where they are, inside or outside the evacuation area. If they wanted to just kill all the Palestinians they could have by now but they haven't. They built sophisticated AI to select their targets so that they can claim their targets are valid military ones.
I mean there's a real legitimate case to be made that they need to select their military targets more carefully or that the amount of civilian collateral damages too high, and I feel like that all gets overlooked when instead It gets replaced with the ridiculous claim that israel is trying to genocide all the civilians, which is obviously wrong.(Israel is comprised of many of the same ethnic groups you claim they are genociding.)
Israel has been very clear that they will attack Hamas targets no matter where they are, inside or outside the evacuation area
So…unless Israel is lying then Hamas is everywhere. If Hamas is in every place the IDF dropped bombs they are, by far, the biggest army in the world. No wonder Israel is so trigger happy.
Look if they were actually trying to avoid civilian casualties the amount of kids killed would not be nearly so high. There wouldn’t be bombed ambulances.
This isnt war this is slaughter of civilians. Just because they’re using different technology to do it doesn’t mean its a sparkling war instead of a genocide.
Palestine is mostly kids, Gazans have a high fertility rate, they decided to have lots of kids in a war zone. Although tragic, it should be unsurprising that they end up being many/most collateral damage casualties. This terrible consequence for slaughtering Israeli civilians should have been totally predictable, yet only Israel seems to be blamed for the violence these children experience, not the ones murdering Israeli civilians while hiding among them.
Israel was attacked by the government of Gaza, and they are counter attacking their infrastructure and their leadership, who hides among civilians. This is war. Civilians almost always suffer and die in war.
They don’t have a high fertility rate. They have a high death rate. If you look at the demographic breakdown, the number of people over the age of 30 or so drops off precipitously.
I mean you might be right that it’s currently quite a lot worse, but in the recent past, their fertility rate has been way above death rate, every year since 1970:
high fertility rate bullshit? does supporting Israel make you just turn straight up Nazi? any more race realism takes? maybe you also share the view of the Israeli government that Palestinians are below animals as well?
oh sorry, the anti-Nazi group is well known for their race realism, like the assumption that different groups of humans have different fucking fertility rates, who were they again?
That's not an assumption, that's a fucking fact. It seems like you're looking for outrage wherever you can, even where there should be none. Invoking Gottlieb's law doesn't reflect well on you.
I mean, yes we get it, you are a Nazi, literally the only people who believe shit like this are Nazis, it’s literally great replacement bullshit.
If you are upset about being called a Nazi, maybe don’t spout the foreign policy of the Nazis as a basis for invasion, nor, pull the scientific racism of the Nazis, nor even the casual disregard of the “non-master race” deaths.
You clearly love inappropriately calling other people Nazis. Does it make you feel like you are correct, righteous? To me, it makes you seem juvenile and unwilling to honestly engage. Blocked so don't waste my time with someone who behaves this way. I hope one day you learn to be better.
You seem sensitive about people comparing Israel’s actions to the Nazis. But Israel is the one that constantly drags the holocaust into every comparison as a cudgel to excuse anything (should a different country have done it) morally abhorrent.
Israel brings the Nazis into the conversation it is not our fault that when we look at what is being done we see them doing the same sorts of things as the Nazis, instead of seeing the shield to any criticism that you might wish it to be. Actions speak louder than words. And Israel is acting a lot lately.
I'm not blaming them for the "murders." I'm pointing out they are responsible for the conditions there, and chose to have children in that terrible situation. Causality exists even if you don't like it.
Such comments only serve to dilute the seriousness of Nazi atrocities because you want to make shocking but inappropriate comparisons. It's not a good look, and it's going to make a lot of people not take you seriously.
70% of casualties are women and children, this doesn’t mean that 30% are Hamas, after all most men also aren’t part of Hamas, just that they are actively targeting civilians
IDF terrorists just claim every civilian male they kill is Hamas.
Ironically Hamas’s civilian casualty rate on Oct 7 is actually close to 2/3 which indicates their attacks were actually very targeted towards military targets.
Unlike Israel which has an actual estimated 99/100 civilian casualty rate.
That doesn't prove they target civilians, it just proves they are okay with collateral damage. The above is a claim about intent.
IDF terrorists just claim every civilian male they kill is Hamas.
Meanwhile Hamas just murders men, women, and children and doesn't even pretend they are trying to hit military targets, blindly firing rockets or sending out violent hordes.
Actually only 29 children died on Oct7 of all the 1200 dead. Including Israeli friendly fire on the Kibbutzes. This shows Hamas did their best to avoid killing children.
There is not a single video from the Hamas gopros of Hamas shooting children. There are plenty of gopro videos of Hamas shooting the dad but sparing children.
In sheer numbers Hamas has done like 40 times better to avoid killing children than israel which knowingly bombs entire refugee camps full of little kids.
I’m not gonna pretend they’re angels but their moral compass is far better than the IDF’s which indiscriminately murders children.
In sheer numbers Hamas has done like 40 times better to avoid killing children than israel which knowingly bombs entire refugee camps full of little kids.
It's easier to make the case deaths of children are collateral damage with targeted bombs against military targets than with guns used against unarmed civilians at close range, or blindly fired rockets.
Actually only 29 children died on Oct7 of all the 1200 dead. Including Israeli friendly fire on the Kibbutzes. This shows Hamas did their best to avoid killing children. ... There is not a single video from the Hamas gopros of Hamas shooting children. There are plenty of gopro videos of Hamas shooting the dad but sparing children.
Perhaps. It's unsurprising that Hamas wouldn't release propaganda of such things. I watched a lot of the horrible footage from that day, it certainly didn't give me the impression that they were showing restraint.
I’m not gonna pretend they’re angels but their moral compass is far better than the IDF’s which indiscriminately murders children.
Then your moral compass evidently does not distinguish intent from effectiveness. There's a lot more to it than body count, like who started this conflict, who provoked the latest escalation, and who the intended targets are. I blame Hamas for these deaths by provoking a predictable attack from a superior foe while hiding among Gazan children, I don't blame Israel for using strategies that minimize their own losses even if it means more collateral damage in a nation they are at war with.
Yeah it’s really hard to not make civilian casualties when you throw a JDAM on a refugee camp. If only they could count the amount of children they’re gonna kill in advance from their Reaper drone and throw it right in the middle of them. Surely they wouldn’t kill all those kids if they knew they existed. That would make the IDF genocidal terrorists!
Your claim about rifles is true. The coward IDF should dare to go in with rifles and risk their lives like Hamas did on oct7. But the IDF would rather kill a hundred thousand babies than risk their own lives. They have barely entered Gaza and are just bombing it down with airplanes.
Some anonymous sources in articles I've read say there is an acceptable number of acceptable civilian casualties per Hamas target that is set by IDF, and this figure went up significantly after the last attack on Israel.
Surely they wouldn’t kill all those kids if they knew they existed. That would make the IDF genocidal terrorists!
Killing of children as collateral damage is terrible, but it does not a genocide make.
The coward IDF should dare to go in with rifles and risk their lives like Hamas did on oct7.
That sounds like a terrible strategy that would only serve to help their opponents, for the purpose of what, risking their lives to not be, "cowards," in your eyes? If Hamas had air strike capabilities I suspect they would use them on civilians with no hesitation and far less restraint. Their stated goal is genocide, after all, while Israel vehemently denies that they are committing one or intend to commit one.
Did you watch that video? It says that an 8-year-old was killed in a shootout with militants during a raid. Not exactly the same as, "intentionally shooting and killing little children." Collateral damage. Why are you misrepresenting this clip?
“If they wanted to just kill all the Palestinians they could have by now but they haven’t.”
If this Israeli government wanted to kill all the Palestinians without looking like that was their plan they would bomb them slowly over an extended period of time while making a human shield argument.
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