concern trolling for voter apathy isn't radical it's boring

claim 1: “voting doesn’t change anything”Never forget the recent case of Kris Mayes, who refuses to uphold the Arizona supreme court’s sweeping ban of abortion. Kris Mayes only won her 2022 election by 280 votes. Voting changes things.

claim 2: “but genocide joe”Yep. Hold that fucker’s feet to the fire. He has blood on his hands But trump has promised to be indisputably worse.

I won’t tell you how to vote. I just encourage you to vote. You’re not radical for ditching the only miniscule right the state has granted you to do some small aid for your neighbors.

Jeanschyso,

In Quebec, we have a saying that I would like to share with you. It comes from our love for complaining. We are completely addicted to complaining about everything. It’s our third national sport after Hockey and curling.

“If you don’t vote, you can’t complain”

If you vote for a person and they don’t do the promised thing, you can complain. You have an excuse reason.

If you vote for a person and someone else gets elected, you can complain that the person you voted for would have done a better job.

If you do NOT vote, you didn’t do shit. You didn’t do the strict minimum. You have no excuse to complain about any of it, because you did not participate in the decision.

spujb, (edited )

but what if i want to have my cake and eat it too! i want to avoid doing the strict minimum and complain i feel like you are ignoring my emotional needs in all of this /s :)

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

I won’t tell you how to vote. I just encourage you to vote.

I genuinely hate this shit, because its so nakedly dishonest.

We played the game back in 2000 with Ralph Nader and “I don’t care who you vote for, so long as you vote” collapsed into “Ralph Nader helped George Bush Jr steal the election” minutes after the polls closed in Florida. Then we played it again in 2016, when Jill Stein was accused of being a Putin shill. The Republicans played it in 1992 when (not entirely unfairly, Perot reviled Bush Sr for taking a foreign policy position of reconciliation towards Vietnam) Ross was blamed for George’s abysmal poll numbers following Desert Storm.

Anyone who says this, while expressing any serious degree of interest in the outcome of the election, is simply lying.

Ultragigagigantic,
@Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

Sounds like you’re suffering a serious case of “First Past The Post voting”.

I’m surprised you’ve let this condition go untreated for so long.

whoreticulture,

Um, his comment is about how other people reacted to their choice of a third party.

spujb,

yeah this user has a habit of typing out the same (valid) talking points, even copy pasting sometimes, in response to comments without actually engaging with the other user. like i agree with their takes but they have a bad tendency to shove them where they don’t belong and take no questions after.

i would block them but it’s kind of entertaining to see lol

whoreticulture,

Hm nice to have some context I guess lol

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

It even says on the documentation that if your condition lasts more than a generation, consultant a revolutionary.

spujb,

this post is specifically me confronting the position that elections are useless and should be avoided.

check through my comments in this post and you will find no instance of me telling someone who to vote for.

and yet you are the one coming into my comment section and calling me a liar. kindly stop it with the attacks, this is asshole behavior you are exhibiting.

whoreticulture,

the making fun of the “voting makes you complicit” fish is you confronting third parties. Most of the leftists not voting for Biden are going to choose third parties. You’re being disingenuous, and getting weirdly defensive when called out.

spujb,

potentially nsfw meme (nothing crazy promise)https://lemmy.cafe/pictrs/image/a0128c21-d397-4c08-a5e0-1d53e56055f2.webp

whoreticulture,

This commenter is pointing out that people will say “just vote!” but then if someone brings up third party, people will say “omg just vote for Biden aren’t you afraid of a Trump presidency?, voting for Biden doesn’t make you complicit”.

You can’t see that your meme is pushing that same argument by disassociating your vote from your values?

spujb,

I guess the way I model it in my head has layers.

The base layer 1 is just that voting is to be taken seriously. Women and people of color have lived and died for this right and it shouldn’t be flaunted as extraneous in the face of that effort. Human rights have been preserved by recent voting, and that reality should not be scorned. This is a core belief and principle I have when it comes to voting.

On an altogether different layer 2, yeah sure I guess personally I fear the damage that vote splitting can have? But I recognize that this is a layer that has a lot more nuance than the first. For example, it highly depends on if it’s general vs primary, local vs state vs federal, whether you are in a swing state or not, whether your state has RCV, etc. While I have concerns, being anti-third-party is not a deeply held belief I have in comparison to the first layer, for these reasons.

This post is exclusively about layer 1 because voter apathy is the far more fearful element (to me) at this point. (Now, that’s not to say other people won’t butt in with their third-party concerns, but welcome to the internet lol). Hope this helps.

AppleTea,

Not voting is a valid choice in an election though. In part the US has Trump as a political figure because the Tea Party movement wasn’t afraid to tank the 2012 midterms and hand Obama’s administration the legislature. If your representatives have to choose between loosing and meeting your demands, eventually they get the message and meet your demands.

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

If your representatives have to choose between loosing and meeting your demands

If you’re not voting you’re indistinguishable from someone who doesn’t care about the outcome. The representatives are going to chase after the people who vote, not the people who don’t care enough to vote.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

If you’re not voting you’re indistinguishable from someone who doesn’t care about the outcome

But that’s a real possibility, especially in an election in which both candidates are intolerable

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

So: if people on the left refuse to vote because both candidates are terrible, and people on the right are going to come out in droves for God King Trump, where do you think the Democrats are going to go chasing votes? Are they going to try to chase the non voters who wouldn’t vote for Trump anyway? Or are they going to try to steal votes from Republicans by shifting further to the right?

Convincing someone who isn’t going to vote to vote for you is 1 vote, convincing someone who would have voted for your opponent to vote for you is 2 votes. Not voting just means both parties ignore you.

AppleTea,

Do you really think there are republicans left to be convinced? Especially with the rising costs of everyday goods? (Remember, it doesn’t matter if the president isn’t directly responsible, it’s happening under Biden’s watch, so the administration gets the blame - either out of ignorance, or out of a frustration that the problems have not been sufficiently addressed)

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

If shifting right convinces 50 “centrist” voters to vote for them instead, and shifting left convinces 99 people who wouldn’t have voted to vote for them, they’re going to shift right.

Politicians are all too happy to have people not vote, so they have fewer people to try to convince.

AppleTea,

The DNC has been shifting right for the last fifty years, don’t you think the strategy is hitting up against diminishing returns?

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

If the people on the left aren’t voting then it doesn’t matter. If shifting to the right causes one more centrist to vote for them and one more leftist to not vote at all that’s still better for them than doing the opposite.

I believe primaries are the place to be pushing Democrats to have more progressive candidates, not the general election once the candidate is already chosen.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

if people on the left refuse to vote because both candidates are terrible, and people on the right are going to come out in droves for God King Trump

You don’t even need that much. With the proper electoral split, Trump could win with an little as 42% of the popular vote.

But that’s a structural problem. And it’s a proven perpetuated by those centrist voters happy to see elections break whichever way they lean.

Convincing someone who isn’t going to vote to vote for you is 1 vote, convincing someone who would have voted for your opponent to vote for you is 2 votes.

Not by the math of the electoral college.

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

None of that changes the fact that convincing someone voting for your opponent to vote for you instead is more valuable than convincing someone who isn’t voting to vote for you.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

convincing someone voting for your opponent to vote for you instead is more valuable

You do not add any value by convincing an Alabama Republican to vote for a Democrat, unless that Alabama Republican is part of the electoral college slate.

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

That’s irrelevant to the discussion at hand of “is not voting effective?”

In places where Democrats are going to chase votes: if shifting right will get them 50 votes from people who would have voted Republican, and shifting left would get them 99 votes from people who wouldn’t have voted, they’re going to shift right. Not voting makes your voice less important.

In places where Democrats aren’t chasing votes (such as Alabama), not voting doesn’t get you more say in politics. In fact, it very much can get you less when Democrats ignore that state. In 2020 Trump won 60% of the vote in Alabama, but only 40% of eligible voters voted for him. How many Democrats didn’t vote because “it doesn’t matter anyway” sending the message to both Democrats and Republicans that their opinion doesn’t matter because they aren’t going to vote anyway?

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

In places where Democrats are going to chase votes

In 2018, Democrats spent north of $250M in Tennessee and South Carolina to lose Senate seats by double digits.

Nevermind the billions Hillary vaporized by going all in on Iowa.

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Okay, cool story. I fail to see the relevance to the topic at hand.

AppleTea,

If you’re not voting you’re indistinguishable from someone who doesn’t care about the outcome.

Only if you aren’t messaging. A write in campaign for “nobody” would be a clear indicator that there are people willing and able to go to the polls, fill out the form, just not for the candidates given. Then, in future, you have hard numbers to point to; “look at this block of voters that wrote in nobody, maybe we should target them”.

spujb,

others have taken a valid attack against this argument, but also worth noting that the Tea Party was backed by ultra wealthy and corporate interests. that sheer mass of capital has insane messaging power that the left either doesn’t have or is refusing to wield.

AppleTea,

Yeah, it was a Koch brother’s project backed by big bank accounts – but that doesn’t mean the tactics aren’t valid. Left wing policies poll especially well with Americans, especially when they’re described clearly and without buzzwords. What we lack in funds, we potentially make up for in sheer numbers of people.

Obviously that requires a hell of a lot of coordination, but I think it’s achievable.

spujb,

the key flaw to your position:

Obviously that requires a hell of a lot of coordination, but I think it’s achievable.

yes. coordination. coordination, which, like it or not, cannot be done without cash. the tea party was able to gain its astroturfed support by coordnation, messaging, which took think tanks, writers and publishers. not free.

you are getting it absolutely correct with the caveat “when they’re described clearly and without buzzwords.” and what does it take to generate that clear communication? research, analysis, understanding, writing, marketing, canvassing, publishing, broadcasting. all of those are job descriptions that can be done remarkably well, for the cost of hiring people to do it. you are counting on a supermassive bulk of labor to reach millions of Americans that can’t and won’t appear for free, as much as i wish it would.

the problem, of course, is the Democratic party. if it would just be better and stop being a neoliberal protoconservative capitalist genocide supporting clownshow, and put a bit of cash toward doing some actual leftist groundwork, we would be fine, but of course we cannot hope for things to magically be better, only to work with things as they actually are.

AppleTea,

How is it supposed to Become Better without pressure? Organizations are like organisms; they minimize energy expenditure - whether in the form of cash, calories, or labor. As long as being the lesser of two evils is a successful strategy, the DNC will not change. There’s no pressure to change.

As it stands, it’s in the organization’s best interest to maintain the threat of Republican domestic policies. It’s why there was no legislative attempt to codify abortion rights in the national legislature - the party benefits from the continued uncertainty. If they had pushed a vote, then individual members would have to answer to the public for how they voted – worse still, it might have passed; then they’d have to find something new to campaign on.

spujb,

I don’t disagree; you just bypass my main point.

How is it supposed to Become Better without pressure?

There is no pressure without money. That’s literally all I am saying.

Right now, millions of Americans could skip the vote out of protest and go utterly unnoticed because there is no messaging backing them. They are indistinguishable from the majority of Americans that don’t vote anyway, and can be treated by Democrats as such.

Thus hilighting the key distinction between a leftist ditch-the-vote movement versus what the Tea Party was.

As soon as there is significant capital backing pro-Palestine views, my point will be moot. This has not happened yet though I pray it does.

AppleTea,

There is no pressure without money

Maybe if we were talking about a private business, sure. But a political party has pressure points outside of the financial - there is some minimum of voters required to keep the institution viable. If they can’t hold office, they can’t deliver to their donors.

Yes, that requires actually talking to people and organizing outside of the party structure itself. But that seems a damn sight more likely than an economy built around arms-manufacture and investment bubbles suddenly developing a conscious and deciding not to continue this very lucrative status quo.

spujb,

Good thing boycotts, divestments and sanctions exist and are effective.

A lot of this discussion is overly voting centric, as you yourself know I’m sure. You’re asking the election to do everything, while I am simply asking the election to hold the overton window away from a total fascist government (look up Project 2025 if you haven’t).

There are other forms of activism than voting/abstaining. Voting is simply a last ditch measure to hold shit stable after everything else is said and done to the best of our ability. I just encourage you to understand that you are putting far too much emphasis on that one facet of democracy, in a way that puts much more risk on the shoulders of your neighbors.

AppleTea,

I’m not sure fascism is a useful word here. We’re talking about a country with a global navel presence, military installations on every continent; a country that accounts for half of all incarcerated people in the world, that has for decades ignored unanimous motions in the UN, who’s economy and politics revolve around the central productive pole of weapons manufacture. The tipping point between “stable US” and “fascist US” seems like an arbitrary distinction at this moment in history.

I’m not asking elections to do everything, I’m asking people to stop treating federal elections like some bulwark against evil. It’s not a useful way to think about it. It’s a hoop to jump through. The electorate decides, mostly by incident and the collective sum of vague gut feelings, where the hoop is and how high is required to jump. What power exists there is the ability to say, too bad, not you! Beyond that, it’s a rubber stamp - about as significant to the running of things as the King of England is to Downing Street.

spujb,

If you think I am treating voting as a bulwark against evil you misunderstand my position from the first place. Never my intention. Simply here to say that calling for a non-vote is misplacing risk onto the most vulnerable people groups when better avenues are available.

AppleTea,

oh, uh, if i didn’t make it clear, I’m just talking at the federal level here. Local elections are far and away more important for keeping regional laws and policies somewhat in check.

spujb,

Makes no difference. Calling for a non-vote without a viable alternative or backing at any level, local, state or federal, is placing undue risk on the backs of the most vulnerable.

AppleTea,

Let me put it this way: Biden is not going to win the electoral collage. That’s forgone at this point. He did not win by a particularly large margin last election, and that was with the added pressures of both Covid and everyone being sick and tired of hearing about Trump on the news.

Now, people are either angry about the price of groceries, the genocide in Palestine, or both. The democrats do not have the will to flip enough swing states to secure the presidency. Unpopular candidate, unhappy electorate. 2016 all over again. They will loose.

…so, why not use that inevitable failure to make demands of the party? The DNC has done more to put vulnerable people in danger than anyone – they’ve floundered the two years when they had both the legislature and the presidency. Are you going to let this party hide behind our vulnerable populations, like human shields? Or are you going to hold them accountable in the only way that they will listen?

Blackmist,

It is rather convenient that 2024 is the year everyone is choosing to be upset about dead Palestinians, but double tap drone strikes are definitely a war crime.

www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/…/Rome-Statute.pdf

https://feddit.uk/pictrs/image/a785b86e-629c-4623-9dbe-19a732da307d.png

Ensign_Crab,

It is rather convenient that 2024 is the year everyone is choosing to be upset about dead Palestinians,

Not everyone. You obviously aren’t.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

It is rather convenient that 2024 is the year everyone is choosing to be upset about dead Palestinians

Talk about your daring takes.

spujb,

i mean the title genuinely. obama did war crimes. that is a true unironic statement.

let me see about editing the title it seems to be causing confusion.

edit: okay fixed. i do want to push back on your statement tho. everyone is NOT suddenly getting mad about dead palestinians. people have been pissed about the apartheid regime in israel for decades. be careful with your assertions here.

Blackmist,

I’m happy to accept that there’s people who have been concerned for a long time about Israel. I’ve seen protests about 15 years ago in my own city in the UK, for about an afternoon. Never saw it again. Never saw any protests about any other genocides happening around the world, like Darfur, only this one.

But what’s new is linking it to a sitting US president, in an election year. Israel’s genocide has been supported by everyone since Truman recognised it a day after it was set up. The USA is a genocidal country literally built on genocide.

Ultragigagigantic,
@Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

Fuck the USA. Throughout its entire history. Hopefully in the future things can get better but I seriously doubt it.

Happy? I know I’m not.

whoreticulture,

When I was in college ten years ago, there were Palestine protesters out every year. At one point they made an artificial wall of cardboard informational posters around a main throughway, with a narrow passageway, to make a point about the checkpoints.

Maybe leftists are tired of being told to vote for the lesser evil as the genocide continues to escalate? Maybe we have realized that it’s not doing much good?

mlg,
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

votes 3rd party

and now we let the copium roll in

Ultragigagigantic,
@Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

Can we try out Ranked Choice voting (or something similar) first? We don’t have to pass federal reform, it can be passed on a per state basis. In fact, there is little stopping democrats from passing it in states they control.

Whats the hold up blue states?

pjwestin,

According to Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the UN, the Obama administration absolutely committed war crimes. Voting matters, and no matter what you think of Biden he is infinitely better than Trump, but don’t roll your eyes and pretend that the people complaining about extrajudicial murder-robots are crazy. Credible institutions believe Obama violated international law with his drone program, you don’t get to pretend that’s fake because you don’t like it.

whoreticulture,

Yes voting matters!! Biden and Trump aren’t the only ones running!

spujb,

fully agree! but your qualms about eye rolling absolutely do not apply to me, perhaps you misread some of my tone? :) see some of the body text where i note that he has blood on his hands.

my use of the “but genocide joe” phrase was a (perhaps lackluster) dig against concern-trolling; the disturbing mincing of absolutely valid criticism of Biden into a “skip-the-vote cuz it doesn’t matter” platform that is essentially thinly veiled maga propaganda.

i do see your concern with how i phrased this, as again im totally with you in condemning Genocide Joe. if you have ideas of how to better phrase this meme i’m totally down to modify the text of it. :)

PS i fully believe that obama committed war crimes. the title of this post was not ironic, i believe that statement genuinely. bro committed attrocities that are not fake. again, not sure if you were misreading the tone there.

pjwestin,

OK, yeah, I read this as claiming people who say, “voting doesn’t matter,” “genocide joe,” and, “Obama is a war criminal,” are all just stupid leftists. It sounds like we agree and I would have gotten more context from the post body of the post, not just the image and title. My bad. :/

spujb,

no hard feelings :) your response was totally valid to a different kind of post, fortunately i’m not that !

bradorsomething,

Lemmy is so kind and rational, I have trouble adapting to the reasonable conversations here.

spujb,

it’s really like three or four other people who are consistently kind and good faith. there is still a wealth of toxicity here too. :(

kamenoko,

One person is a politician, and one is a rapist con artist. I’ll take the politician please.

Hegar,
Hegar avatar

I'll have a voting against trump is important with a side of fuck you genocide joe.

spujb,

based

magnusrufus,

That’s good as long as it’s acknowledged what the only viable method of voting against Trump is.

problematicPanther,
@problematicPanther@lemmy.world avatar

fuck joe biden. but at the same time, fuck dolan more. I’d rather have 4 more years of relative calm with a shithead that nobody likes than to be subjected to another 4 years (at a minimum) of the crazy shit which is a trump presidency.

Ultragigagigantic,
@Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

Okay, but holding your nose and voting without a meaningful push to do away with First Past The Post voting after the election is like wrapping a severed limb with a tourniquet and then cleaning your hands and calling it a day.

Yes the patient didn’t die, but rot is setting in the mortal wound as we speak.

So, let’s start the process now so we are free to vote for who best represents us in the future.

problematicPanther,
@problematicPanther@lemmy.world avatar

absolutely. I’m tired of having to put on the tourniquet every four years. But if I don’t want to immediately die, I have to.

nytrixus,

“Voting doesn’t change anything” is a thinktank tactic of saying “Don’t vote unless you’re gonna vote who I discreetly like”

Empricorn,

People who say that usually don’t vote.

AnalogyAddict,

I vote, even though I know it changes nothing.

Dreizehn,
Dreizehn avatar

I'll take the lesser of the two evils and I will vote Blue, but I wish the Dems would have found a younger candidate. At least the Democrats are not crying about suspending the US Constitution. If you vote for Putin's Sock Puppet, you're voting for a dictator.

Woozythebear,

And voting for Biden is a vote for Genocide

ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

Voting for Trump is also a vote for Genocide (capital ‘G’ for some reason).

Voting for a third party is similar to not voting.

So, are helping trump win, or are you not helping trump lose?

Dreizehn,
Dreizehn avatar

Wrong, the GOP would given Israel a blank check too.

Lemmy_Cook,

I think you are in the meme

Jeanschyso,

Every option you have is a vote for Genocide. Encouraging genocide is a bipartisan act. Ignore every bipartisan issues to select who you will vote for, otherwise you won’t be allowed to complain about the results for 4 whole years.

You wouldn’t want to not have an excuse to complain, would you?

Eldritch, (edited )

Beyond regularly voting in solidarity. We need to start running these younger better candidates ourselves. Republicans run unopposed in many places on state ballots. And Democrats have spent roughly the last decade ignoring these positions. We might not win all or even a large chunk of them. But we could by accident when a few and start building new coalitions from there. Making inroads into places that had given up on getting better. Voting is only the first step.

Ensign_Crab,

And Democrats have spent roughly the last decade ignoring these positions.

Michelle Vallejo is 32. Democrats cut her funding in her election against Monica De La Cruz in the crucial last month, during an election cycle in which the party did ad buys for MAGA candidates.

Younger, better candidates run. Party leadership prefers a maga chud to a progressive in any given position.

Vallejo is running again. I hope she has alternate funding this time.

grue,

Yeah, that’s the real issue here: neoliberals are more comfortable with fascism than progressivism or socialism, but most of the younger generation is (justifiably) disillusioned with liberalism, so of course the neoliberals Democratic Party is having a hard time finding candidates it wants to support.

The solution, of course, is to kick out the fucking neolibs that have a stranglehold on the party, but that’s easier said than done.

Woozythebear,

That will never happen if neo libs can support a genocide and still be voted in. Why would they change if they can support a genocide and still win?

assassin_aragorn,

Here’s the problem – if that happens, conservative fascists can support genocides and still be voted in. In addition to all of their other appalling beliefs. And the thing is, when Republicans win, they swing the entire country to the right. It’s happened every time since Obama.

Consider too, what happened in 2020 after Clinton lost in 2016? Did the party swing hard left? Not at all. Bernie’s team helped adjust the rules for the primary to be fairer and did away with superdelegates. Still, in a head to head against Biden, he couldn’t win. And all primaries eventually winnow down to 2-3 candidates. In a ranked choice primary, Bernie wouldn’t have won even if everyone stayed in the whole time.

To swing left, you have to build continuously and gradually.

Ensign_Crab,

The solution, of course, is to kick out the fucking neolibs that have a stranglehold on the party, but that’s easier said than done.

Very much so. It’s why I only donate to candidates and never the party. I only trust the party to spend it on ads for maga chuds.

Eldritch,

The party leadership is allowed to decide where their funding will go and where it won’t. And them not putting it towards a particular candidate does not mean they support the opposition. That they gave her funding in the first place even points to the opposite of that. And your conclusion is extremely disingenuous.

Make no mistake I have no love for neoliberals, democrats, or the party leadership. And it’s great that this one person ran. But up and down the ballot in my state and city there are Republicans running unopposed. We need to be able to point to many more than one single instance. And as you said we need to be prepared to help with alternate funding. Because the Democratic party cannot be relied on to any grrat extent. Which is the whole point of us getting people younger and better to run ourselves and not waiting for them to do it. Because we know their judgment is flawed. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make but you only really supported my point.

Krono,

The Democratic Party gets to choose, and they consistantly choose conservatives over progressives.

We, the voters, dont get to choose. We are forced to Vote Blue No Matter Who.

Woozythebear,

No one is forcing you to vote blue no matter who. Democracy is withholding your vote if your voice isn’t being heard.

Krono,

Maybe I’m an idealist, but I think democracy is when your views are represented and government is responsive to the needs of the people.

“Democracy is when you don’t vote” just doesn’t make sense to me.

Eldritch,

That’s why it’s equally as important as voting. To replace the candidates the current Democratic batch prefer and fun with ones that we prefer. If we do it and keep at it eventually enough of the establishment will be replaced that they will have to rely on the support of the candidates we like. Who will then move up in the party ranks till eventually they’re in control of the party. Need to remind you that in the middle of the 20th century the Democratic Party was a fairly large League bigoted racist party. The Republican party was and still is. But the point is the Democrats changed. And they can be changed again. But we need to push candidates on them.

That’s something that really hasn’t been done in the last half century.

Krono,

What do you mean it hasn’t been done? There have been many progressive challengers to DNC-backed neoliberals. I can tell you about my experience volunteering for a few of these campaigns and all the structural hurdles the DNC uses to crush the progressive wing of the party.

But I think the bigger issue is urgency. We can’t afford to wait a generation before taking serious action on climate change. Our current path leads directly to the end of human civilization.

And for the families in North Gaza eating grass to survive, they cannot wait until the next election cycle.

Eldritch,

There are vasts swaths of offices here in red states where republicans run unopposed. Yeah if you primary democrats chosen candidates they will do everything they can to support them. To counter that. You need good name recognition, reputation and pedigree. From holding these lower often seen as less important offices democrats ignore and progressive candidates don’t run for.

The problem is everyone tends to try to primary for higher level offices. Federal level etc. And that’s the problem. Replace the base and the top will eventually follow. Go for the empty offices. I vote on almost every ballot that comes up here. I leave a bunch of it blank because my only options are open republican fascists or closeted right wing libertarian fascists. I would love to see DSA candidates, green Party Candidates etc. I’m happy you’re primarying them for some of the few offices they decide to pursue. That is unfortunately largely a waste of resources and effort. But still important. But there are thousands of offices they don’t run for actively. That instead of clashing with a chosen candidate and causing both parties to waste more resources. Could probably find you being amicably supported by the larger party for having the initiative.

Krono,

From my experience the problem isn’t reputation or pedigree, its DNC-created problems. Progressive challengers have a hard time doing basic things like printing flyers, because print shops know that if they work with a progressive challenger once theny they end up on the DNC blacklist. Its official DNC policy and it’s super effective.

I too would love to see more DSA backed candidates running for lower offices, but from what I’ve seen it’s not a question of tactics, it’s a question of resources. Most modern politics is funded by corporate donors, and since the DSA does not accept this corruption, they simply dont have the money to run a candidate for dogcatcher in your flyover town.

Where I live in a populous blue state, there is no such thing as a republican running unopposed. If that’s different where you live, then you should sign up to be the next DSA candidate running for one of those seats.

Ensign_Crab,

The party leadership is allowed to decide where their funding will go and where it won’t.

And they decided to spend their money on ad buys for maga candidates and to pull the rug out from under progressives. Which is why the party can get all the way fucked when it asks for my money. They’ll just waste it on maga chuds.

And them not putting it towards a particular candidate does not mean they support the opposition.

Their funding of the opposition indicates that.

And it’s great that this one person ran.

Yeah, she makes a great object lesson for what happens when you run and aren’t MAGA-adjacent enough for the party’s liking.

But up and down the ballot in my state and city there are Republicans running unopposed.

Wonder if that has anything to do with progressives not being able to count on support of the Democratic Party.

Because we know their judgment is flawed.

Their judgement is sound; they just prefer maga candidates to progressives.

Eldritch,

And they decided to spend their money on ad buys for maga candidates and to pull the rug out from under progressives. Which is why the party can get all the way fucked when it asks for my money. They’ll just waste it on maga chuds.

There’s no proof of that. That is a hyperbolic and absurd claim. Have they strategically propped up and pushed for bad Republican candidates before? Yes. Not because they support them. But because they are generally so weak they think it’s some sort of viable strategy to defeat Republicans. It’s backfired soundly on them and they haven’t learned. Claiming that they actually “support” them is absurd however. You’re literally claiming that they wanted Trump to win in 2016 over hillary. Because they prompt him up early on. When clearly that isn’t the case.

Wonder if that has anything to do with progressives not being able to count on support of the Democratic Party.

No. It’s another bad Democrat strategy where they focus almost solely on the national level. And largely ignore state offices and legislatures. Its been that way at least 20 years. If you’re old enough to remember.

Their judgement is sound; they just prefer maga candidates to progressives.

No. It’s still an absurd, hyperbolic, and unsupported claim. I’m not arguing that the Democrat leadership hasn’t behaved stupidly. There’s more evidence that they have than of most other things in life. But they’re not trying to get the magats in office. They’ve always intended to beat them. But the morons legitimately don’t know how to do that reliably.

Ensign_Crab,

We’re looking at the same set of events. You’re calling it incompetence. I’m calling it malice. If it were just incompetence, you’d think at least once the party would bumble into looking like they had their thumbs on the scale for progressives.

Eldritch,

They have multiple times. Whether it’s the chips act, the NLRB decision or some of the more recent ones. Some of the stuff in this list is pretty specious but it’s a pretty decent list. And it’s not as long as it should be. But it’s definitely not nothing.

Democrats are absolutely incompetent. There’s no question. But if you think they’re actively pushing to get magats elected. You make the people thinking there was a child sex dungeon in the basement of a pizza parlor with no basement seem slightly more sane.

Ensign_Crab,

Some of the stuff in this list is pretty specious but it’s a pretty decent list.

Oh cool. The list that counts changing the color scheme on a plane as an accomplishment.

Democrats are absolutely incompetent. There’s no question. But if you think they’re actively pushing to get magats elected.

They’re paying for their ads and starving progressives of funds.

Eldritch,

Oh cool. The list that counts changing the color scheme on a plane as an accomplishment.

I literally told you that some of them weren’t really valid. And that’s your best reply. The Chips act, NLRB decision, the debt relief, and recent FTC decisions. They’re HUGE. And the fact you can’t engage and act maturely like an adult. Just shows how disingenuous you’re being.

They’re paying for their ads and starving progressives of funds.

And? Lay out the conspiracy gymnastics to go from that to literally supporting Republican candidates with intent of getting them elected. Is this being orchestrated by the Bilderbergs, the lizard people, maybe the greys? Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained with incompetence. Though in your case it may be both.

Ensign_Crab,

And? Lay out the conspiracy gymnastics to go from that to literally supporting Republican candidates with intent of getting them elected.

You want me to prove intent?

Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained with incompetence.

I do not believe that this can be adequately explained by incompetence. Democrats’ “incompetence” only benefits candidates to the right of progressives.

Eldritch, (edited )

I do not believe that this can be adequately explained by incompetence. Democrats’ “incompetence” only benefits candidates to the right of progressives.

That’s a consequence of a century of encroaching fascism and heavy right-wing framing. From the 1950s Red Scare all the way through today. Including Reagan’s terrorist assaults. It’s easily explained by Propaganda and incompetence.

You’re young passionate and uninformed. I’m not going to hold that against you. Because that’s how we all tend to start out. And the first two are solid assets. However a failure to engage with the facts. An employee reasoning and understanding to learn. Could be something that people will hold against you in the future.

Take it from someone who’s old enough to remember when drills telling you to hide under your desk to Shield you from an atomic blast were commonplace. Ignorance, incompetence and propaganda ran rampant. And you aren’t immune.

Ensign_Crab,

Take it from someone who’s old enough to remember when drills telling you to hide under your desk to Shield you from an atomic blast were commonplace.

So I guessed right when I guessed boomer. As though the condescension wasn’t a dead giveaway.

Eldritch,

Wrong as always. And I gave you more complements ironically than criticism or condescension. But you gotta be you. And you gotta be the victim just like the Magats. GL with that.

Ensign_Crab,

You support the party because it opposes progressives.

Ensign_Crab,

I’ll take the lesser of the two evils and I will vote Blue, but I wish the Dems would have found a younger candidate.

I’ll vote for the lesser of two evils and don’t care one bit about his age. But I consider his support for genocide to be morally repugnant, and bitterly resent being manipulated into a position where my vote renders me monstrous.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

I wish the Dems would have found a younger candidate

monkey’s paw curls

Meet 2028 presidential nominee Eric Adams

Prunebutt, (edited )

Vote, or don’t.

The important thing is that electoralism won’t solve our problems and is a waste of time for the working class.

Edit: Downvote me all you like. But I’d be interested if any of you have a plan of voting capitalism away. I’m all ears.

Ultragigagigantic,
@Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

3rd parties can be made viable by passing electoral reform at the state level.

We aren’t Russia (yet), we can still change things if we change how we vote! Look up a video on First Past the Post voting for more information on how and why the spoiler effect exists.

Prunebutt,

I live in Europe, so I know about other votino systems (and I know the game theory behind fptp voting, thanks).

Even in Europe, where you have a more broad spectrum of parties in parliament, you can’t vote away capitalism.

spujb,

huge news you’ll be happy to hear: you can do both voting and direct action. those aren’t somehow mutually exclusive. i do both. 👍 hope this helps

Prunebutt,

Never claimed otherwise. I critizised the whole practice of trusting in electoralism.

All that discourse surrounding electoralism distracts from proper political action. How many people vote every soandso years and think that this was the vital act of a democratic society?

TransplantedSconie,

If your vote doesn’t matter so much, why are so many people telling us not to vote?

^^because ^^it ^^does ^^matter

Vote!

spujb,

AMEN 💯💯💯

all this dialogue is also such a huge spit in the face to the women and POC who FOUGHT for the right to vote. yes, it’s a right with limited scope and fraught with corruption. but to discount it altogether on the public stage is so fucking disingenuous.

assassin_aragorn,

“Voting doesn’t change anything, it’s pointless and things won’t get better”

Woman’s suffragists, civil rights protestors, and gay rights protestors: “Are we a fucking joke to you?”

blazera,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

who’s saying voting doesnt change anything?

Theprogressivist,
@Theprogressivist@lemmy.world avatar

A bunch of assholes, not limited to Lemmy. You’ll see them pop up soon.

heavy,

Russian state trolls

Dreizehn,
Dreizehn avatar

...mixing in with the shit stain MAGATs.

Bipta,

And Republicans who know better and want you to stay home. They're the same ones who lie about the date of the elections.

Cryophilia,

It’s fucking nuts to me that we went through this EXACT SAME PROPAGANDA in 2016. Literally. Russians and Republicans invading leftist spaces with their faux “As a lifelong Democrat” bullshit. We didn’t learn.

FreudianCafe,

Yeah, voting in the right person will solve deindustrialization, homelessness, decadent academia, drugs, inflation etc etc

AnalogyAddict,

People living in a very biased state.

Speculater,

The people who don’t want you to vote.

blazera,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

I feel like you and OP are talking about people like me who aren’t voting for your candidate

spujb, (edited )

lol, false. don’t brigade or stir up shit but check out my comment history for examples of individuals who advocate for voter abstention.

do like, the bare minimum of research before implying im a liar. 👍

edit: since u pedants refuse to actually read, here is a recent user openly campaigning for voter abstention. not third party, full poll skipping, and stating voting does nothing. do not brigade this user im not trying to be an ass here, just proving that i am not lying. and another popular article that calls for not voting.

blazera,
@blazera@lemmy.world avatar

I see you commenting on a post criticizing specifically voting for Biden.

spujb,

see the edit to my comment for proof

Rustmilian, (edited )
@Rustmilian@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t see where they’re calling you a liar.

.lemmy.world/comment/9715963

spujb,

deleted_by_author

    •
    Rustmilian,
    @Rustmilian@lemmy.world avatar

    There’s a big difference between “I feel like you” and “you are” dude. Calm down, it’s not that deep.

    spujb,

    edited to the word implied, thanks for your input.

    sadly it is that deep tho lol human rights are at stake and when the first reaction is to say “no one is doing that thing that’s gonna take rights away” i am gonna take offense. just how it is.

    Rustmilian, (edited )
    @Rustmilian@lemmy.world avatar

    You have every right to defend yourself from their arbitrary assumption against your character, but I don’t believe anyone is straight up calling you a liar. They’re just showing that they don’t actually know anything about you rather than directly accusing you of lying. Like for example, “I feel like my sister likes corn dogs”, do I know that as fact? Nope, I’ve never once seen her eat a corn dog in my life, it’s an arbitrary guess that ultimately means nothing, then she’d probably respond with something like “I don’t because I’m Jewish, stupid” and I’d look like a clown. I feel like that’s what’s happening here.

    Edit : small typo.

    spujb,

    i hear you. again, i changed my wording based on your input. lot of hot feelings here and im used to people doing straight up attacks so i do apologize if i overresponded to anyone in defense of myself.

    Rustmilian,
    @Rustmilian@lemmy.world avatar

    There’s no need to apologize, you’re well within your right to defend yourself.

    Melkath,

    Not voting and abstaining from voting, while similar, are not the same thing.

    Watching football and ignoring politics is not voting.

    Rejecting both genocidal fascist candidates and abstaining is different.

    Eldritch,

    Not voting means you don’t care and are okay with whomever wins. Sometimes you have to make hard decisions and compromise for the best possible outcomes. It’s way easier to virtue signal and not actually do anything though.

    Melkath,

    No, in this specific case, its that I don't support genocide or fascism.

    If you are cool supporting genocide and fascism, you are a horrible person, but I cant stop you.

    Cryophilia,

    So what you’re saying is it doesn’t matter to you whether it’s a little genocide or a lot of genocide, either is equally acceptable to you?

    It’s funny, all you purity testers, once someone crosses your “I refuse to support” line, then everything beyond that is equally bad to you. I think you guys have a fundamental inability to understand scale.

    It’s a classic trolley problem. Throw the lever, one person dies. Don’t throw the lever, ten people die. You’d rather have 9 extra people die so you can pretend your conscience is clean.

    Melkath,

    "A little genocide" is fine as long as it's your guy doing it.

    Because it's all about picking your flavor of fascism and getting that dub.

    Jesus you people are disgusting.

    Cryophilia,

    Isn’t that better than a lot of genocide? Because those are your options.

    Melkath,

    You boot licking fascist.

    You are not forced to contribute to the ethos of a genocide.

    What is not clear about that?

    feddylemmy,

    By not voting you are contributing to the ethos of a worse genocide. What’s not clear about that?

    Melkath,

    No.

    I'm not.

    I am devaluing the ethos of both fascist movements.

    Stop "following orders" and licking fascist boots.

    ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

    Yes, you are. Stop being in denile.

    Eldritch,

    You really are a child aren’t you. Everyone who doesn’t agree with you supports genocide. News flash is going to happen no matter what you do. All we can try to the people responsible over time. And it’s not just biden. It’s the entire Democratic and Republican establishment. And you got to start replacing the bottom up not top down. Maybe someday when you grow up you’ll be useful and actually help someone.

    Melkath,

    Everyone who votes for a man committing genocide does support genocide. Yes.

    You are getting a little senile and all that Red Scare programming is really flaring up, huh?

    Stop licking boots because "it's the only option."

    It's not.

    Eldritch,

    Grow up he’s not committing genocide. He’s enabling it yes. But for the love of God grow up.

    Kiddo I literally am the red. And I love to love to scare them.

    You are literally the only one here to mention licking boots. I’m not here to kink shame. If that’s your thing more power to you. Just stop accusing others of it. We’re trying to actually make a difference unlike you.

    spujb, (edited )

    see my edit to my comment. i understand the difference between those terms and am not equivocating. kindly stop implying im a liar now that i have provided evidence.

    Melkath,

    user openly campaigning for voter abstention.

    ... which isn't simply not voting. It's refusing to vote for fascist tyrants and genocide and challenging the system to do better.

    What isn't clear about that?

    Melkath,

    Spot on.

    I'm one of "those guys" championing voting third party or abstaining.

    Still gonna vote on the measures, but the 2 party system has 2 fascist parties, so I won't vote for them.

    That gets constant "So YoUrE vOtInG fOr TrUmP! SaMe ThInG!".

    Same guys calling the anti-zionism/pro-Palestine protests anti-semetic/pro-hamas.

    That can't think 2 inches past their fascist's asshole. Trump and Biden followers equally.

    jumjummy,

    Russian troll is going to troll. “Both sides are the same” is about the most uninformed, naive, and idiotic thing I see.

    Melkath,

    American fascist throwing tankie/russian/chinese at an actual responsible American because their feefees are hurt I wont vote for their fascist.

    jumjummy,

    “Responsible American” lol

    Naive, delusional, and malignant is a more apt description of “both sides” people.

    Melkath,

    43% of the country is currently registered independant.

    You are the minority.

    Third party is completely viable, fascists like you just clog up the discussion with your froth mouthed boot licking.

    spujb,

    not spot on. with full respect, this post is not about you. i really love to hear that you are voting on the ballot measures. that is a good thing.

    others however are calling for non-voting altogether. this post is about them and not you, i apologize if you feel called out here that was not my intent.

    Melkath,

    Again, you keep saying "not voting" like they are just playing Call of Duty and cant be bothered.

    They are abstaining. There is a difference. When no viable candidate is presented, you abstain. That is the correct thing to do.

    Voting for fascism and genocide because that's all that's available is the wrong way to go about it.

    Cryophilia,

    There is a difference

    Literally, mathematically, there is not.

    Melkath,

    Mathematically, the sweeping majority of Americans are registered Independent, so why are the "only options" Republican or Democrat?

    Oh ya, fascism. Enabled by people feeling bullied to vote for people they do not actually endorse.

    Cryophilia,

    so why are the “only options” Republican or Democrat?

    The first past the post voting system.

    All of you “literally every bad thing is fascism” people are a) morons in need of a civics class, and b) providing cover for the actual, real fascism that’s attempting to overthrow our democracy.

    spujb,

    https://lemmy.cafe/pictrs/image/af937093-bc21-42f9-9390-173ec760a830.webp

    should i post this

    ASeriesOfPoorChoices,

    third party or not voting means you don’t want to help stop Trump being elected and you approve of his blank check support of genocide.

    I’m not saying you want to vote for Trump, but you have no intention of doing anything to try and stop it, and all the worse outcomes that come along with it.

    Until you get preferential voting / ranked voting, that’s how it is in the USA. Grow up and deal with it.

    NeptuneOrbit,

    The fish in the meme

    spujb,

    enough to be scary for someone who doesn’t like seeing human rights stripped

    jeffw,

    I’ve seen elections tied that had to go to a coin toss. This flipped the government of a nearby town. Every vote matters.

    FreudianCafe,

    The shoe that was thrown at Bush matters more than all the voting youre gonna do in your life. Dont fool yourself

    WamGams,

    Okay, buddy.

    I’m sure you are more politically relevant than we are.

    rbesfe,

    What exactly did that shoe accomplish?

    daltotron,

    it was pretty funny, I liked it

    Jeanschyso,

    It got an MNA in hot water for his involvement in a protest in Montreal where people went out at -24C and threw their shoes at a picture of Bush.

    FreudianCafe,

    Showing disgust for the genocidal ghouls that rule the USA.

    Jeanschyso,

    It certainly mattered to Canadian politics. One of our politicians participated in a shoe throwing event at -24 in Montreal where ppl threw their shoes at a picture of Bush to protest US involvement in that incident and Harper 's willingness to engage Canada in a meaningless war. One of the protesters was a provincial left-leaning party co-leader and MNA (Amir Khadir).

    However, voting matters more than one successful protest on one issue. You would need to throw thousands of shoes to get shit done if that’s how you want to go about it.

    FreudianCafe,

    I can only hope for people in there to go from shoes to bricks really fast

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