A third party signed up 15,000 voters in Arizona. Democrats worry that’s enough for a Biden spoiler

More than 15,000 people in Arizona have registered to join a new political party floating a possible bipartisan “unity ticket” against Joe Biden and Donald Trump.

While that’s less than the population of each of the state’s 40 largest cities, it’s still a number big enough to tip the presidential election in a critical swing state. And that is alarming people trying to stop Trump from winning the White House again.

The very existence of the No Labels group is fanning Democratic anxiety about Trump’s chances against an incumbent president facing questions about his age and record. While it hasn’t committed to running candidates for president and vice president, No Labels has already secured ballot access in Arizona and 10 other states. Its organizers say they are on track to reach 20 states by the end of this year and all 50 states by Election Day.

Hildegarde,

If a third party is enough to spoil your election, you should probably run a better candidate instead of complaining about it.

Pips,

The third party here is a spoiler to try to bleed people from the left to think there’s a legitimate other option when their motive is to get a Republican elected. People on the left may not be equally susceptible to bad faith arguments, but that doesn’t mean they’re immune.

rambaroo,

So fund the libertarian party then. I’m sick of wimpy ass Democrats whining about how unfair everything is instead of actually fighting back.

You are not going to win over third party voters, so stop trying. Invest in spoiler candidates and spend most of the party’s money on GOTV instead of blowing it on ads for the presidential candidate. It’s honestly shocking how incompetent the Democrats are compared to the GOP, who pay for their voters to throw literal GOTV parties with neighborhoods full of GOTV organizers and canvassers. There’s a reason they keep elections close despite being a minority.

Meanwhile Dems will just fucking blame voters if they lose again.

PickTheStick,

Uh, just to clarify, GOTV is gay-owned tv? Gothic onesies tv? Government objectives tv? grasping ostentatiously tv?

averyfalken,

Get out the vote apparently. The whole go vote thing people push round election time

PickTheStick,

Ah, thanks.

averyfalken,

Yw tbh I had to go duck duck go it

Hildegarde,

By your logic, every election was spoiled. There hasn’t been an US presidential election without any third party candidates as far as I have been able to find.

The way to win elections is by running candidates people want to vote for. Complaining that people are running for office in a representative democracy is not a good way to win votes.

Pips,

Let me be clear: this specific third party is most likely a GOP-led operation to bleed votes from the left. They do not have real policy goals that align with what people on the left actually want. Their goal is for a Republican to win, not someone from their party.

jhymesba,

This is valid logic in normal times. But these are not normal times. Let’s get real here.

The First Past the Post system means Third Parties are virtually unelectable. Add to that the US system of government (needing a majority of votes to elect a Speaker or Senate Majority Leader, Electoral College, Majority needed to avoid POTUS picked by the House, etc), and we’ve got our own unique challenges to Third Parties, and those problems are going to need a Constitutional Convention to fix. People who willingly ignore this are stupid, and only serve to damage their political side.

If you need this explained again to you, here we go. Suppose 50.1% of the nation leans Left, while 49.9% leans right. That’s a pretty narrow split. You really can’t afford to lose anyone. But then some doofus comes up with a Left2 party and claims the mainstream Left party isn’t doing enough, and if you just elect them, they’ll give everyone the shiny golden alicorn that farts rainbows they swear they are owed. It doesn’t take much. If 0.3% of the voters in the country believe that Left Party isn’t doing enough, and switch their vote to Left2 Party, suddenly it’s 49.9% Right, 49.8% Left, and 0.3% Left2, and now EVERYTHING Left and Left2 cherish is torn down by Right party, and you regress.

This is fine in most circumstances. You don’t always get what you want, and sometimes, Left2 voters need to be reminded of this harshly by the Right party, and maybe in the next election, they’ll figure out how voting works in the Not-So-United States of America, and they’ll turn out to vote for Left party despite not getting the shiny golden alicorn that farts rainbows because they realise they aren’t even getting a broken down old donkey from Team Right.

But these aren’t normal times. We don’t have Left and Right parties here in the USA today. We have Centre-Right and Fascist parties. You aren’t getting a shiny golden alicorn that farts rainbows. Your choices right now are a slightly used donkey from Team LeftCentre Right, and a jackboot on your face from Team RightFascist. Team Shiny Alicorn is there to suck your votes away, but when you lift the curtain JUST a little on Shiny Alicorn, you see one of Team Fascist’s goons operating the controls. We’re just trying to ask you to make the smart choice here, buddy. But I’m helping my wife get set up for school in New Zealand, because I don’t trust the rubes who will fall for the bait and switch with Team Shiny Alicorn…I half expect Trump to be POTUS and his goons to start looking for people like my Bisexual Black Pagan Goth Wife, and people like me who dare sully the White race by being with someone like her. Please prove me wrong…

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

The spoiler effect has been mathematically proven to be one of the defects of first-past-the-post elections by game theorists for quite some time. It doesn't really have anything to do with the candidates.

Hildegarde,

It is the job of elected officials to write and change laws. As this is a known issue of first past the post, democrats had every opportunity to push for amending elections to not use first past the post.

Its not right to complain about spoilers in elections when you have the power to do something about it, but chose not to.

starman2112, (edited )
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

Ah, I remember when I thought voting third party would matter. Hey kids. Take it from someone who voted for Johnson in 2016. I get that voting strategically fucking sucks, and you want to make your voice heard, but it is not worth getting Donald Trump elected just to be part of the 3% that said “I don’t like either of these people.” With any luck, third parties won’t give the presidency to republicans next year, and one or two supreme court justices will die or retire in the next five years, allowing us to start repairing our rights. Because justices nominated by Biden will suck, but justices nominated by Trump (or God forbid, Desantis) will suck in the same ways and much, much worse.

fubo, (edited )

Yes, exactly. Both of these things can be true at the same time:

  1. First-past-the-post plurality voting is a crappy system, devised before humanity discovered the math of voting systems. It has all kinds of predictably terrible results.
  2. It is currently the system we have. Because of this, if people who object to fascism fail to vote for a non-fascist candidate who can win, then the fascists will win.

Anyone who disregards point 2 because of point 1 thereby ends up materially supporting fascism. This is unfortunate but that doesn’t make it false.

“But I want to vote my principles!” Great! Is one of your principles “fascists should lose”? If so, then please make sure to take the steps that support that principle!

Currently in the US there are two parties that can credibly take the presidential election: the center-right party and the fascist party. This is unfortunate but that doesn’t make it false.

Vote third party in local elections. Elect a Socialist mayor or a Libertarian judge; a Green sheriff or a Communist dogcatcher. Build those local party networks. Support approval voting or other voting systems that actually make some mathematical sense. But please don’t let the fascists win because you’re pissed off at the voting system.

young_broccoli,

Implying biden/democrats arent fascists. They are just less agressive.

fubo,

No, I didn’t imply it. I fucking stated it.

MotoAsh,

If you cannot distinguish between a wannabe dictator and an authority figure using their authority, you might be too fucking stupid for politics.

Armen12,

And if that authority is unjust? What’s that called?

muse,
muse avatar

Dude, one side wants to eradicate my people. Shut the absolute fuck up

Armen12,

I’m a minority, so no, I won’t shut up, but thanks for showing me why you people are just as bad as republicans. You think it’s ok to demonize marginalized people and I don’t think that’s right.

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

Listen, I get where you're coming from: I don't think any branch of the US government has legitimate power, and their authority is as farcical as if some watery tart had lobbed a scimitar at them and declared them king of the Britons.

But regardless, lots of people believe in the intersubjective reality of "America" and while they're all collectively insane, they can use violence to get what they want. I'd rather they use violence to not kill my children.

Plus, Democrats are weak so if we kill the Republican party we'll have an easier time overthrowing the capitalist Democrats.

MotoAsh,

The authority being unjust is wholly different than a fucking despot attempting a coup… Again, if you cannot understand the difference, you are too stupid for politics.

DLSchichtl,

🤓

jhymesba,

They really aren’t Fascists. Hey, I did a 14 point analysis on the two parties! Here’s the summary: 1: Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: R***, D*. 2: Disregard for Human Rights: R***, D* 3: ID of Enemies as Unifying Cause: R***, D* 4: Supremacy of the Military: R**, D** 5: Widespread Sexism: R***, D 6: Controlled Mass Media: R***, D* 7: Obsession with National Security: R***, D* 8: Religion and Government Intertwined: R***, D 9: Corporate Power Protected: R***, D*** 10: Labour Power Suppressed: R***, D* 11: Disrespect of Arts and Intellectuals: R***, D* 12: Obsession with Crime and Punishment: R***, D* 13: Rampant Cronyism and Corruption: R***, D* 14: Fraudulent Elections: R***, D*

I go into lots of detail about why I award the stars (*) above. Zero Stars means I think the party is actually really damn good about this topic. One star means they have some problems but are otherwise fair. Two means they have a real problem with this, despite making some headway on righting it. And 3 stars means they aren’t even bothering to do anything about it and are in Hitler/Mussolini levels of devotion to Fascist ideals. As you can see, I ranked the Republicans 3 Stars on everything, with the Dems really only joining the Reps when it comes to protecting corporate interests.

What do you rank the Dems on this list, and more importantly, why? I mean, if you asked the Republicans, Dems hate the US and want to see it fail, so they’d not get any points for 1, 4, 7 or 8, and, according to Republicans, we’re all baby-eating, baby-f***ing Satan worshippers, so the only religion we want intertwined with government is Satanism, but we all hate Christians, so we can’t be guilty of 8. I’d be interested to see your take of how the Dems match the 14 characteristics of Fascism. Maybe we’ll learn something about you here.

starman2112,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

This is a hard comment to read on my end, because the asterisks are being used for italics and bolds, and the single line breaks don’t cause a line break in the displayed text

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/627a1744-0114-42b0-a226-3856fee80312.webp

Wakmrow,

I mean your own analysis proves that other posts point. The Dems are fascist as well, just not as overt.

NormandyEssex,

Yes it is

starman2112,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

I guess if you’re conservative, the stacking of the supreme court was worth it. Our Nine Godkings will fuck up our rights for decades to come thanks to Trump.

NormandyEssex,

I just don’t want to vote for two candidates and parties I don’t like. I’m voting the way everyone is supposed to.

muse,
muse avatar

That's nice. Explain that to your kids when you get the team elected that ends voting for more than a single party

NormandyEssex,

Hey I can’t help that your preferred party sucks, that’s on you

rayyyy,

Call it what it is the conservative capitalist corrupt court (CCCC)

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

On the other hand, Trump might destroy America. Try to focus on the silver linings!

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
Semi-Hemi-Demigod avatar

One thing I liked about living in a safely blue state is I could vote for whoever I wanted without risking the destruction of the planet.

But Fetterman's my senator so I guess that's cool

rambaroo,

I’m sure third party voters aren’t turned off at all by people condescending them and calling them children.

starman2112,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

I didn’t mean to call all third party voters kids, I was addressing people for whom '24 will be their first election. If it’s not your first election and you still haven’t figured out that third parties are a trap, I’m not even gonna try to convince you otherwise.

Delicious_Tomatoes,

It seems that you and your responders have all forgotten what the electoral college is.

I remember when I bought into “voting third party throws away your vote.” Hey kids, take it from someone who grew up in a blue state. I get that thinking strategically fucking sucks, and you want to go with the herd, but it is not worth keeping the establishment party established just so you can be part of the 80% of people who say, “The actually good candidate wasn’t electable.” With any luck, solid states that show growing support for third parties will start applying the pressure that any incumbent party needs. Because the Supreme Court sucks not just because of Trump, but also because of Obama’s milquetoast policies before that, and another Justice’s refusal to retire when she knew the level of risk.

(Using your format limited my response, but the most important thing I’ve been learning lately is that voting is the token the government gives us so that our politics start and stop with the ballot. You can say “Why not vote and be politically active?” and I’d agree. But I’m concerned about how most people just forget to do anything after they vote.)

Viking_Hippie,

Take it from someone who voted for Johnson in 2016

You mean a Republican who smokes weed? 🙄 If the libertarian party was your first choice, the GOP were your second, so by your own binary logic, that was a vote taken from Trump, not Hillary.

starman2112,
@starman2112@sh.itjust.works avatar

Nah, by the time November rolled around my choices were Johnson>Clinton>Trump

I was 18, not exactly the most politically intelligent kid

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Can’t wait for Democrats to blame everyone in America except for themselves if Biden loses.

Hylactor,

What I really wish they’d do is put forward candidate with some real life experience. Someone who’s been around for a while. If we elect Biden again he’s probably just going to blow the budget on candy and throw a bunch of sleep overs. We really need someone older and more mature.

FuglyDuck,
@FuglyDuck@lemmy.world avatar

You mean… like when trump lost? and he still refuses to accept that he lost. because that’s fucking impossible, right? obviously everyone else cheated- because he did. And would, and will always cheat.

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Except when Trump lost, Republicans stormed the capitol and killed a cop. Democrats won’t do that. They’ll just whine.

njm1314,

Fucking yeah. I would hope so. How is that not better than an attempted coup?

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

If Trump wins again we’re going to have bigger problems.

Pips,

*Multiple cops. More than one Capitol Police Officer died after and due to 1/6.

queermunist,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

lol

K1nsey6,
@K1nsey6@lemmy.world avatar

That sounds like a Biden problem. Dems need to decide if they really want to keep Republicans out or try to make sure their side wins. If it’s to keep Republicans out they need to all vote 3rd party because most of us won’t support your milquetoast conservatives again.

If it’s to make sure their party wins, they are gonna lose.

KingSlayer,

For everyone arguing about the validity of voting for a third party: contact your representatives and push them to support ranked choice voting initiatives. Maine and Alaska already have some form of RCV. RCV in the US

themeatbridge,

They won’t, of course, because then they couldn’t scare you with threats that the wrong lizard will get elected.

rayyyy,

The recent introduction of third party candidates is just another way fascists are attempting to continue the coup along with phony impeachments. Gerrymandering, voter suppression, lies, projection, deception, raising the voter age, removing polling stations, prohibiting food and water donations to voters in line and voter intimidation are other ways they are actively employing because fascists can't win on merit. Don't fall for it.
A true third party candidate will come from the grassroots, with grassroots support, not from the top.

Aghast,

Third party voting being a recent addition? Have you heard of Ross Perot? Have you heard of the Whig party? Third party voting has been around for centuries. The Democrats and Republicans just want you to think it’s not a thing.

The threshold for participation of a candidate unfairly keeps 3rd parties out so the Democrats and Republicans can keep power.

cbsnews.com/…/do-the-debates-unfairly-shut-out-th…

jordanlund,

No Labels? Isn’t that Andrew Yang’s deal?

In Arizona, 15,000 people is enough to swing an election.

In 2020 the final count was:

Biden - 1,672,143
Trump - 1,661,686

10,457 vote difference… but that belies the bigger picture:

Jo Jorgensen (Libertarian) - 1.5% - 51,465
Howie Hawkins (Write-in) - 0.0% - 1,557
Jade Simmons (Write-in) - 0.0% - 236
Gloria La Riva (Write-in) - 0.0% - 190
Daniel Clyde Cummings (Write-in) - 0.0% - 36
President Boddie (Unaffiliated) - 0.0% - 13

I think it’s less likely that a 3rd party would draw from Biden or Trump and more likely they’d draw from the other fringe candidates, esp. the Libertarians.

Viking_Hippie, (edited )

new political party

possible bipartisan

Ffs! Can you just put the tribal binary rhetoric away this one time where it makes no fucking sense?? 🤦

The very existence of the No Labels group is fanning Democratic anxiety

Yeah, the establishment doesn’t like to be challenged. Maybe the establishment should try actually representing the will of the people, just to see how it goes 🙄

Miqo, (edited )

No Labels is an astroturf group that aims to divide the dem vote. It is NOT a legitimate option for those who want to advance progressive policies. They do not disclose their funding and investigations have found that a large donor was Harlan Crowe; the billionaire who bought InJustice Thomace.

Maybe someone should challenge dem leadership, but splitting the vote with a party backed by far-right billionaires isn’t the answer. It’s the fucking problem.

Viking_Hippie,

I wasn’t talking about No Labels in particular, I was talking about the zeal that both parties but especially the Dems have for demonizing third parties in general and their comparative lack of effort to make them unnecessary by representing the policy positions of the majority

Maybe someone should challenge dem leadership, but splitting the vote with a party backed by far-right billionaires isn’t the answer. It’s the fucking problem.

I agree that No Labels isnot the answer, but the problem is the same as always: politicians from either major party don’t faithfully represent the interests of their constituents.

Miqo,

That’s actually a very good point, and I guess I misunderstood your position.

Viking_Hippie,

Thanks and no worries, these things happen 🙂

Zaktor,

Really wish the Democratic establishment would start treating centrist “Democrats”, who actually do get Republicans elected, as antagonistically as they do progressives. The people who jump in with “both sides” when one side is getting massively worse aren’t committed to centrism, they’re laundering conservatism and/or trying to blunt the damage from their party’s extremism. No Labels has been a transparent Republican op from the start.

Delicious_Tomatoes,

Considering the policies of No Labels are just libertarian finance with even more billionaire backing, we really have to consider the likelihood that the idiots who might fall for it really are gonna be the “centrists” Dems have been courting for decades.

2nsfw2furious,

If the Democrats are worried maybe run a candidate that isn’t 100 and make changes that matter. If both parties are right of center there’s gonna have to be a new one that’s left

andyburke,
andyburke avatar

Agree. However, if we get to the general and it's far right or democrat, I hope people choose the ancient democrat to the more fascism-friendly alternative.

invertedspear,

Yes, we need an actual left, but No Labels isn’t it. They preach centrism. But from what I’ve seen they’re just a way for right wingers to try to hide the fact that they’re right wingers.

MotoAsh,

Yes, when one side is saying, “fuck peaceful group X, they don’t deserve to live.” and the other, “hey, maybe don’t hate on people you don’t even fucking know?” only a fucking moron thinks there’s an acceptable middle ground.

Centrism is the ideology of the ignorant, gullible, and stupid. Nothing more.

Armen12,

I wish you people would actually apply that logic to ethnic minorities

MotoAsh,

The vast majority of minorities want nothing more than to never speak to your dumb ass. Stop demonizing them, you pathetic bigot.

Armen12,

I am a minority in America, you people need to stop being so disgusting towards ethnic minorities. I’m talking to democrats here who somehow think insulting ethnic minorities is somehow ok just because republicans do it

MotoAsh,

Oh look a bigoted minority!

Good thing I’m not a teenaged Democrat, or I’d refuse to believe you exist. I didn’t insult minorities, you moron.

jhymesba,

Yeah, with people like Lieberman and Manchin signing up for this nonsense, it’s not the hope for a better party. It’s an attempt to poach off from the rightest most extent of the Democratic coalition, while parties like the Green Party poach from the left-most extent. At least the Libertarians are poaching off ‘decent Republicans’ on the other side, but we’ve got to be smarter than the Republicans here and NOT split our coalition in a voting system that gives the nod to the party with the largest unified coalition.

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