@Veza85UE That's their way to softly remind folks that regardless of the EU Commission and the EU Parliament, the Council still has the last word and the ultimate decision-making power. I am NOT Council-skeptic, it works as intended: keeping a great part of the power to territorial representation not unlike the US Senate.
@pmroman@Veza85UE actually the CoEU was enough to represent Member states' governemnts in the EU, no need for the EUCO to have this role.
the transformation of the EUCO from an unofficial extraordinary meeting to an official regular council brought too much national politics at the EU level, slowing down regular EU activity AND stopping its role of finding new solutions to make the EU to work better.
@elCelio@Veza85UE The commission is an administrative body, unelected, able to put laws into regulations and to administrate and enforce those regulations. The council is made of folks elected by a certain territorial entity, and representing the interest of that entity, the Council is the Senate of the EU.
the EU Council is not the "Senate" of the EU: it is not a legislative body.
the EU Council represents the head of governments of the member states.
its role should be only to oversee and give a common political direction to the EU, and it should be considered more as a collective head of "state".
the body of the EU representing the interests of Member states is the Council of the EU, which works with much less noise, in cooperation with the Commission and the Parliament.
@pmroman@Veza85UE the EU council is made of the head of governments of member states: in most member states they are not elected.
and it is absolutely not a legislative body of the EU.
it is not similar to a Senate like the US Senate or the French Senate or the Indian Senate or the Brazilian Senate or the Australian Senate... I can't find a Senate similar to it.
Maybe the German Bundesrat, but not even that one.
@elCelio@Veza85UE FYI: Senators in France are not elected, but voted by the local elected officials of their circumscription. In the US Governors or state legislators, used to appoint the Senators and it took a long time to shift to an senate elected directly by voters.
@pmroman@Veza85UE well, you said, not me: "The council is made of folks elected by a certain territorial entity"
I repeat: the EuCo does not have legislative power like the various Senates, and it should not be its role.
before the establishment of the EuCo the Member states interests were already represented by the CoEU, which works much better because they prepare their work and they compromise with the Commission and Parliament, it is not a TV show for national politicans like the EuCo...
@elCelio@Veza85UE Ok, thanks, I wanted to be sure we spoke about the same thing. The treaty of Lisbon created the current Council, and while it isn't defined as a legislative body, it performs many legislative duties and can block, and kill, almost anything coming from the Commission and Parliament. Further more, it sets long term policies and the general direction.
@pmroman@Veza85UE exactly, the legislative power of the CoEU has been (de facto) given to a TV show for national politicians (the EuCo), who bring their political home problems into the EU legislative process.
at the same time, since 2009, there hasn't been any new big revision of the Treaties, at most we got the ESM and Brexit...
@elCelio I think any treaty changes could arrive by the end of 2029. The last couple of enlargements were poorly handled and evaluated by the Commission, a change now is not yet possible, even if extremely desirable.
@pmroman the Eastern enlargements were not poorly handled by the Commission, they were poorly handled by the Western public (French, Dutch, Irish, etc) who didn't want a "superstate" to get into conflict with their perceived "national interests" through establishing a common Constitution.
And now we have an #EU gridlocked for the personal interests of a few Eastern national politicians.
@pmroman instead of complaining of "too strong" EU institutions and creating new bigger EU Councils (like the ECP), they should choose the best people (EU commissioners are chosen by national governments!) and let them do their jobs!
If you don't like how they do their jobs, change the people or change their jobs, but do not DO their jobs. That's the real downfall of the EU as a working institution, and slowly becoming something like the UN...
@elCelio@pmroman
I agree that the majority have 0 interest in making the EU work better (it would be a perk, if only someone else did the work and the vision thingy and ONLY as long as it doesn't inconvenience them)... BUT. That might turn out for the better under the right circumstances (and with vastly improved personnel - but that's on us, the voters).
I think we NEED more, not less, politics. Not the way Orban does it, but these clashes of interests are normal.
@elCelio@pmroman
I think they started paying attention to the EU and fighting regularly about EU matters because the EU started to matter more and more. Sure, most of them have no interest in geopolitics (or anything past the next elections), for example, but just because they're not interested it doesn't mean that geopolitics isn't interested in them.
@Veza85UE@elCelio Right, exactly like in any other elected legislative territorial chamber, their next election. Now, want to improve things? Start with a functional parliament of no more than 425 members.
@pmroman@elCelio
Member states governments will not let them have power, you can cut it down to 45 or 27, the Council works as intended for an era in which is interesting to think of 2009 as its starting point... boy did they not cover themselves in glory with the financial crisis either. And they must have thought THAT was was hard. Hah. Welcome to the Accelerationist era. You won't have time for merkelling anymore.
@Veza85UE@elCelio It will get better, more integrated. Mr. Draghi is right, the current structure is at the end of its useful life, I believe there will be a fully functional structure by 2050-60, of course I won't be here to celebrate.
@pmroman It's a nice sentiment to have for a high-level discussion, I'm reveling in it. On the ground, the effects of getting it as wrong as they did for the financial crisis has devastating effects on entire generations and families who pay the price. I'm not surprised that many of my generation have not forgiven them. Except most aren't aware of who has the power, so the resentment transfers onto a nebulous "the EU" in Brussels.
@Veza85UE That's why it's very important to push for EU focused journalism and education. My generation suffered too, I know folks who bought into the private retirement schemes and have now a total value lower than the monthly pension they expected. Many have to sale their houses to survive after retirement. Their handling was catastrophic, and missed a chance for great infrastructural investments, the "no debt" obsession is irrational.
@Veza85UE An interesting French perspective, but a perception nevertheless. I don't agree with their analysis which appears focused on achieving a predetermined conclusion. Very french. Good read anyway.
@pmroman oh dear oh dear. I'm not a fan of this article at all. The German Constitutional court's rulings, while not ideal, are the least of Europe's problems.
The Conseil d'État deliberately misinterpreting CJEU rulings, however, is.
Moreover, the general attitude of France (my home country) is majorly problematic : essentially, it is their way or not at all.
We've seen this with Ukraine aid, where France has insisted the aid we provide should be made in the EU to boost fr defence industry.
@abolitionniste@jmaris@ashtime@OBabasch@pmroman
Whatever about the article (yes, it's very French, yes I laughed by the end when évidemment France is a total failure in the EU and the national navel stinks). I hadn't even read it, I was responding with it as a read I wasn't looking forward to to this:
"the "no debt" obsession is irrational."
No amount of whataboutism about France or Poland or Malta will ever make that statement (and the 1 consensus paragraph in the article) less true.
@jmaris We're less than 48 hours from the last ditch attempt Ecofin Zoom call for "SGP reform". As someone who tends to fall on the side of: "It really, really is the economy, stupid!" the article's description of the consensus paradox still feels true to me as I read in parallel SGP takes from long-suffering eurozone economists (some are Germans who are screaming into the consensus void) and whatever other countries' bad EU takes are of little consequence for this particular priority.
@jmaris@abolitionniste@ashtime@OBabasch@pmroman
OK, but you're still arguing with an LGC article that was a throwaway divagation in a different discussion. (There's a shorter, mean meme version of this post😄)
I've since rambled extensively to explain that I'm interested in euro brainworms born out of broad societal consensus and systemically damaging to the EU. In consensus that isn't overwhelmingly mercantilist (like DE's "Russia is our friendly gas station! 😊") but majority cultural.
To me, Schwartzernull is faith-based macroeconomics and passes all 3 tests.
I'm not talking about mere policy mistakes, which everyone makes. Starving the EU of investments in a 0 rates environment isn't a: "Who could have known it would turn out to be a disaster?" scenario.
None of Viktor Orban's BS compares. The damage he causes might be systemic, but his motivations are anything but irrational.
Does some French BS compare? Probably, idk (though the consensus one might be tricky to clear, ahem...) Was De Gaulle irrational? Maybe. Was the vote against de European Defence Community in 1954 irrational?
@jmaris@abolitionniste@ashtime@OBabasch@pmroman
(I'm more interested in 21st century examples, because hindsight skews 3).
Poland refusing coalexit doesn't compare.
Ireland's (and Luxembourg, Netherlands etc) fiscal piracy doesn't compare.
Some British examples come to mind, but luckily they're history and as irrelevant for the above as whatever is going on with the Platform Workers Directive.
@jmaris@abolitionniste@ashtime@OBabasch@pmroman
Which the MEP herself explains quite clearly: Council doing Council things as a result of lobbying in Member States, duh.
Which is also not a unanimity decision and involves the following countries (in alphabetical order, you're not special!): 🇨🇿 🇪🇪 🇫🇷 🇬🇷 🇭🇺 🇱🇻 🇱🇹
@Veza85UE@jmaris@abolitionniste@ashtime@OBabasch Back to the lobby issue, not as important as the failure to invest while rates are basically zero, but a constant impact in our daily lives too. Lobby is very opaque, and poorly regulated, in the EU. All proposals I've read so far will change nothing.
@jmaris@pmroman@abolitionniste@ashtime@OBabasch
True, plus as much as this aspect needs more transparency, at least it's not a black box legislating behind closed doors.
This is still the 🐐 EU lobbying meme:
Add comment