@gruber@counternotions Gray’s Anatomy, the gold standard anatomy textbook, comes to 1562 pages in hardcover. Mac OS X Internals runs 1641 pages. Complicated systems, like life sciences, software, and laws, can be overly burdensome to describe precisely. If you want a fair comparison to the US Constitution you’ll need to include all the laws through which it is manifested.
@Gte@counternotions I'm arguing the opposite. That Apple's 12-page summary took work to compile, does a favor to the reader, and that Microsoft and Google's book-length proposals are purposefully obfuscated.
Or as Blaise Pascal put it: “I have made this longer than usual because I have not had time to make it shorter.”
@gruber@counternotions The brevity of legal documents doesn’t necessarily reflect their quality. I think we agree there. Then you compared it to the US Constitution which is famously open to very broad interpretation. Arguably a few more words there would be better. You’ve brought a writing class to a law school and I don’t think they’re comparable. Certainly, great lawyers are often great writers. But a product of a lawyer has requirements beyond being succinct.
@Gte@counternotions Well, by the same token, Apple has published (I suspect -- I haven't counted) hundreds of pages of developer documentation related to new APIs created for DMA compliance. The argument that Apple's 12-page summary is unserious compared to the 200–400-page submissions from Microsoft and Google, based solely on length, ignores that, and would have a casual reader walk away with the impression that Apple's entire proposal was merely 12 pages long.
@gruber@DonSqueak Never thought I’d see @gruber quote Paul Ryan with a highly contestable assertion 😉The US is “the oldest existing nation with a constitutional government in which the people elect their own government and representatives.” But “living democracy” hmm Iceland, NZ, Britain, Isle of Man, Switzerland, even the Native People of the Six Nations have better claims in the broader sense of democracy and suffrage.
@gruber@brucelawson and there are millions of words of constitutional wall Supreme Court decisions, trying to explain it, apply it, fill in the gaps, and just generally makes sense of it.
@gruber You can make various arguments about regulatory overreach and bloating the definition of consumer harm without delving into the “but the US Constitution makes us great” weirdness.
With amendments, which are rather critical, it’s 7,591 words.
@janbiernacki I'm saying length isn't a measure of quality. I'd wager, without having read them, that Google and Microsoft's DMA compliance plans (200+ and 400+ pages respectively) are opaque, obfuscated by the language of bureaucrats. Apple's 12-page document obviously is controversial, but it's written in very clear succinct easily-understood language.
@gruber fair point, thought you were making it a US-EU thing. Should have thought of the length thing considering the gobbledygook memo. Still, I think you could see how me and others could read your comment the wrong way 😅
I think it’s worth nothing that the compliance plans being so vastly different is also a bit of traditional Apple bridging of ideas. It being well-written and concise is probably also part of a PR strategy. Microsoft and Google just let the lawyers do a lawyer thing.
@Gte@gruber if we’re all equally responsible for the actions of a powerful minority, regardless of our own stances, I’ve got some very bad news for you about nuance, Guy.
@gruber And famously clear leading to no long running arguments about any amendments nor creating any opportunities for differing interpretations nor creating any, shall we say, “elastic” loopholes. A true testament to the expressive power of brevity.
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