Are you talking about Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, or Arab Israeli citizens with a Palestinian background? Because those are two very different legal categories. Arab Israelis have full legal rights. Palestinians don't, because they're not Israelis, which I'm pretty sure is something we all agree on. Israel doesn't claim them, and you'd be screaming ethnic cleansing if it did.
Now what's the exact issue you have? People who are not Israeli citizens and do not live in Israel cannot vote in Israeli elections. People who are citizens and who do live in Israel can vote. The housing discrimination that mentions is gross, I'll admit, but that's the main objectionable thing I see.
Do you want Israel to annex the West Bank or something?
I don't want it, but even in the case of gaza and the west bank they are de facto under israeli control or even under permanent military occupation, with no expectation of diminishing but the opposite, isn't this essentially an annexation but denying their rights?
gaza and the west bank they are de facto under israeli control or even under permanent military occupation,
Probably because they remain at war with Israel and have yet to stop attacking them or make a viable peace, choosing endless intifada and it's predictable consequences instead.
Repeating those words like a mantra only serves to dilute them because you're using them inappropriately.
Both Holocaust and apartheid generally refer to denying people rights or killing them because of their genetics and that's clearly not what's happening here. Israel is at war with Palestine because Palestine keeps trying to murder Israelis, not because of Palestinian genetics.
If you think anything happening is remotely comparable to the Holocaust, you don't know anything about the Holocaust. If Israel was trying to exterminate Palestinians the way the Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews, Gaza would be a sheet of right now.
I also don't have the right to vote in Israel, which makes sense, seeing as I don't live there and I'm not a citizen. I weirdly don't have the right to vote in Germany or Russian either.
I know that one time a holocaust survivor spoke of the thirst she felt during that time and how it was indescribable, and I think of all the missing Palestinians that had their bones crushed to rubble as they waited for hours to be rescued, and all those that didn’t survive. I think of how Israel dehumanized them and ethnically cleansed them, how they held back fuel and medical supplies that could save innocent lives, and I can’t help but draw comparison. The message of holocaust survivors was clear: Never again. Never again doesn’t mean denying it when it happens again. Never again means Palestinians too.
And that comparison is flawed, because there is a fundamental difference between a systematic effort to murder a population and a careless disregard for collateral damage during military operations.
Both are shameful; only one is a genocide. If you broaden the meaning of genocide to refer to any war operation that fails to sufficiently protect civilians, you've suddenly labeled most of military history as genocidal.
The bombing of Dresden was horrific, but it was not comparable to the literal Holocaust happening at the same time.
Indeed you can't, because if that Israel's aim, they've been doing an incredibly bad job given that the number of Palestinians has increased by a million in the last ten years.
Whereas I don't recall the Jewish population of Europe doubling during the second World War. But sure, these are basically the same thing.
Israel practically showed intentions and plans to ethnically cleanse Palestinians from Gaza. On top of that, they actually did lots of masacres and a fucking Nakba to prove it.
the days of “lol if Israel is doing genocide then why are there Palestinians left alive” are over, I’m afraid
You would never dare say that against Jewish people. But somehow Palestinians are not human enough.
Palestinians have kids, and people undergoing a genocide or war tend to have more kids to make up for the ones Israel kills. Get over it.
You are being intellectually dishonest. We are not taking about a German with voting rights in Russia. We are talking about a population being colonized by Israel, being tortured by Israel, being denied their land, their basic human rights, and their right to self determination. Gaza is not France, Israel is not Russia. This is more like Americans wiping out the native population, or apartheid south Africa. Gazans had their citizenhood stolen from them by Israel. And on top of that they treat Palestinian Israelis like shit…
The only democracy in the middle east my fucking ass…
If Israel actually gave all Palestinians Israeli citizenship, you'd be right. But, that's not going to happen. Why do you think the Nakba happened and Israel keeps rejecting Palestinian right of return? They want Israel to have a Jewish majority and they're willing to commit Apartheid and ethnic cleansing to get it.
Israel also cannot just give them citizenship as that would mean the election would end catastrophically considering the fact Hamas is quite popular amongst Palestinians.
Are you aware of the fact how easy democracy can be turned into a dictatorship? Just look at Germany from 1930s.
Majority of Palestinians are quite radicalized. Take Gaza inhabitants, for instance. For the past 18 years Hamas was governing there and you know what’s Hamas’s main goal? To remove all the Jews and Israel altogether. Many Palestinian citizens actually support this narrative.
Now let’s be realistic: how many % could Hamas get in the Israel+Palestine elections. Just look at this poll: thehill.com/…/4273883-mellman-do-palestinians-sup…This means Hamas would probably get anywhere from 15-25% if there were joint in Israel+Palestine. Do I have to keep on explaining why this would be a catastrophe? And also don’t forget to add some radical orthodox Jews who believe the entirety of the land was given by God to Jews…
For the same reason there aren’t joint elections between south and north korea…
This is unbelievable man. You are literally accusing me without proving one relevant argument whilst I in detail explained why at the moment it would have disastrous effects to let Palestinians vote in Israeli government. And I am rather ignoring the Hitler note cause it’s rather funny.
Have you ever been to Israel and Palestine? Cause to me it seems like you have no clue what’s happening there and acting like you’re the most knowledgeable in the world.
There is this weird thing called comment history. I took a peek and you are hands down one of the more bigoted assholes here.
Take a peek at mine and you will see how much I know, I’ll wait dipshit.
That you can’t see how you are acting like a modern day Nazi is an amazing skill you have. Take off your blinders and look at what you have said if you just switch out the names of countries and peoples for say “whites” and “blacks”. I know you won’t honestly do it because you are steeped in propaganda and the cognitive dissonance would cook your brain.
Oh and just to make sure I’m clear I don’t show courtesy to racist’s. With that in mind… Fuck off bigot.
I have genuinely no idea how my comments resemble Nazis’ rhetoric. My family almost died due to Nazi regime, so I truly hate this regime.
What I have said it that Palestinians should not be allowed to vote in joint Palestine+Israel elections. Same for Israelis. In fact, I believe that there should never be a joint Israel+Palestine election (at least not in near future) because one-state solution does not seem realistic to me. How do you imagine 2 nations that are fighting for the past 70 years to have a single shared state? Do you honestly believe that such a state would work? Do you think there would be any culture in such parliament?
Hence why I believe that more-realistic is a 2 state solution where both Israel and Palestine would have their own elections (ideally). However, even option will not happen very soon because currently the relations are worse than ever. Still, I believe this is more probable than a single-state solution.
And yes, I would definitely like to see what you know and what your view is because so far you have presented zero facts. So far now it seems like all you can do is insult people who do not have exactly the same opinion as you do.
You are resorting to name calling rather than having a substantive conversation. You invoked Godwin's law. I looked at their comment history and didn't see any racism at least in the first page or so. Yours, however is full of outrage trolling and insults hurled, accusing those who disagree of being chatbots or arguing in bad faith. I feel bad for your 8-year-old If you behave like this in real life.
Nah I just got tired of attempting to deprogram zionist bigots with essays explaining the reasons they were wrong. Go back further in my comment history and you will see me explaining apartheid, genocide, ethnic cleansing, history of the conflict, etc from the non-propaganda side of history (ie : not just instantly siding with Israel in ALL situations). For example (and I’m not sure if I have mentioned it here on Lemmy or elsewhere) UN resolution A/RES/77/25. Go read it : un.org/…/peaceful-settlement-of-the-question-of-p…
Wanna guess what 9 members voted against it while 153 voted in favor??
The PLO and Hamas both tried peaceful civil disobedience and were brutally gunned down.
Repeatedly.
What options are really left for an occupied people? And before you answer, tell me how many slave revolts happened in the US and if they should not have done it instead trying to peacefully negotiate with their oppressors.
As to my attitude towards the jackoff that you felt the need to white knight for… I have lost much of my desire to try to turn those bigots around. They are a lost cause and too deep in accepting the propaganda fed to them uncritically. So I just call them what they are and tell them to fuck off like I would to any other bigot or nazi.
I have and it still does not relate to Israel. Death of 15k whilst the number of Palestinians is 5 million is not genocide. Surely, it’s terrible but it’s not a genocide especially considering how many of them died due to lack of bunkers in Gaza.
Hamas initiated a war with a horrific military/terrorist attack on Israeli civilians on October 7. Sometimes when a belligerent starts a war, it ends up losing territory.
The Palestinian Authority only has exclusive security control of roughly 18% of the West Bank – Area A. However the IDF basically enters it whenever they deem it necessary anyway, so exclusive is a misnomer.
The PA has joint security control with Israel in 22% known as Area B. The rest of the West Bank – 60% in Area C – is under direct Israeli control. Area C is where all the illegal Israeli settlements are. Palestinians are also pretty much never granted building permits, etc in Area C. And it’s worth noting that Areas A and B are non-contiguous as dotted islands of control inside of Area C.
I’m not really sure what other outcome Hamas thought there would be when they launched their Oct. 7 attacks and then are continuing to hold hostages. Widespread killing and sexual violence launched from Gaza against Israel, killing ~1,400? Whether or not you agree with Israel’s actions since then, it should’ve been apparent to anybody that Israel was going to retaliate in a major way, they shoot kids who throw stones at them, like they weren’t going to respond with a massively disproportionate show of force. I guess they wanted to spark a greater war against Israel in the Middle East, that seems like the only other outcome that “makes sense”, but does the rest of the Middle East care that much about the Palestinians to get into another war with Israel? It sucks for the people caught in the middle just trying to live their lives.
Hamas didn’t have a plan beyond “shake the hornets nest and hope the other side puts us in a better position after the rubble is cleared.” They just wanted to cause a disturbance that would put them on the world stage again.
Gambling that Arab states actually give a shit about Palestinians beyond what domestic political advantage they can provide is a bet that hasn't generally paid off.
I think they’re still not entirely over the whole “Jordanian king visits Al-Aqsa and gets assassinated by Palestinian terrorist” business from way back in 1951.
Hamas took hostages so Israel would come after them of course. They’d been unsuccessful provoking them with small attacks prior.
Sadly for the Palestinians, Hamas is actively trying to use them as war propaganda by forcing a war and as much suffering as possible. Why? To isolate Israel and soften it up for the larger attack.
By this logic, Israel had already annexed all of Palestine before the 2005 withdrawal.
Not to mention, Israel has managed security in the West Bank forever. If Ramallah has actually been annexed, it's rather strange that you won't find any Jews there, and that it's actually illegal for Israelis to even visit this apparently annexed territory.
Perhaps the situation is slightly more complex than that.
Israel bans Israelis from visiting Ramallah because they don’t want Israelis interacting with Palestinians, and especially shopping in Palestinian businesses.
If I were Israel, I would also retain security controls there for some time. Though, I am quite afraid how “security controls by Netanyahu” will look like.
This article has been removed by AP - the URL links to the live update stream from Dec 6th, and links from other articles to this one are similarly broken.
The title of the linked article is “Israel moves into Gaza’s second-largest city and intensifies strikes in bloody new phase of the war”, which appears to have been appended to the post URL: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-12-05-2023-8f171da297b565e28156b88d1fc250b1 Israel moves into Gaza’s second-largest city and intensifies strikes in bloody new phase of the war
More like setting up checkpoints between cities. Actively hunting for terrorists and launch sites and the return of settlers and settlements to Gaza. Hamas did it!
yeah, but different words have different implications and connotations. We say settlers, and that word doesn’t hit as hard as colonizers or oppressors, even though they all pretty much mean the same thing.
Yea all they need are more checkpoints and a heavier police presence. 10/7 definitely won’t happen again. Those pesky Palestinians wanting human rights.
Well, you never saw an attack of this scale in the West Bank, where the IDF does have an extremely thorough presence. And you never saw this happen before the IDF withdrew from Gaza.
So, yes, you have sarcastically arrived at a true solution. Well done.
It’s amazing that people can see Apartheid and how it ended and never question Palestinian actions. Apartheid ended because there was a belief in a peaceful future. There’s no Mandela in Palestine that can convince the Israeli’s that giving up power would lead to peace. And after a 20 year experiment in self rule in Gaza failed; it’s hard to see the alternative.
Just fyi. Apartheid didn’t end because of peaceful protest.
The ANC had been peacefully opposing the Apartheid government. But that all ended after the Sharpeville massacre commited by the Apartheid government.
Then MK was formed ( uMkhonto we Sizwe). MK was the armed guerilla resistance that Mandela and the ANC saw was needed, because the Apartheid government wasn’t giving in to peaceful opposition of their government.
You’re probably confusing what people say was a ‘peaceful’ end to Apartheid because civil war was avoided.
And it was only truly avoided because the resistance had to make so many unfair concessions to the international liberal powers that be ( imf, the US etc.) and the Apartheid government. Otherwise the Apartheid government was gearing up to actually start mass murdering the non white population (aka genocide).
There truly are a lot of parallels between Apartheid south africa and israel
Exactly. People don’t want to accept it but i see a lot of parallels between MK and Qassam brigades as liberation armed struggle. When peaceful protest fails then violent opposition is inevitable.
And the PLA has rejected all 2 state solution offers, pays out a fund to the families of killed terrorists (including Hamas’ and is just as corrupt if not more corrupt than Hamas. Endorsed the 10/7 attacks. They’re not a potential partner for peace and have proven it over the last 40 years or so.
Like the other guy said, what ended Apartheid was the ANC's violent resistance and international pressure.
Also the "experiment" in Gaza failed because Israel has blockaded Gaza exactly as long as Gaza has had self-rule (both started in September 2005). The Gazan economy was dependent on using the income from agricultural exports to import food and other life necessities. Then Israel came and just said no you can't do that.
And two decades of indiscriminate rocket fire kept it going.
Then why wasn't it lifted in 2008 or 2013? Israel signed ceasefires with Hamas then that stipulated the blockade would be lifted, and even though Hamas followed their end of the ceasefire it wasn't lifted.
Also, then what was the "experiment" you were talking about? Whether a strip of land dependent on foreign trade can survive when cut off from the outside world?
During the initial week of the ceasefire, Islamic Jihad militants fired rockets on Israel. Under pressure from Hamas, Islamic Jihad had agreed to abide by the temporary truce, which was meant to apply only to Gaza, but had balked at the idea of not responding to Israeli military actions in the West Bank. The New York Times reported that the Islamic Jihad action broke the Hamas-Israeli Gaza truce.[3] During the next 5 months of the ceasefire, Gazan attacks decreased significantly for a total of 19 rocket and 18 mortar shell launchings,[3][4] compared to 1199 rockets and 1072 mortar shells in 2008 up to 19 June, a reduction of 98%.[5]
Pretty sure. A similar thing happened in 2013 too.
The ceasefire demanded that Hamas police other groups to prevent them from firing rockets. They did. Do you understand the numbers you're reading? 19 rockets is basically a rounding error, and could've been reduced further had Israel actually followed its end of the deal.
The agreement called on Israel to increase the level of goods entering Gaza by 30 percent over the pre-lull period within 72 hours and to open all border crossings and "allow the transfer of all goods that were banned and restricted to go into Gaza" within 13 days after the beginning of the ceasefire.
To my knowledge that didn't happen. Not even close.
The increase in supplies of food, water, medicine and fuel did improve, but the increase was only to an average of about 20 percent of normal levels,[91] compared to the Hamas compliance in reducing rocket fire by 98%.[88] Two months later the volume of goods arriving was too low to significantly improve living conditions,[92] preventing UNRWA from replenishing its stores.[93] Israel told U.S. officials in 2008 it would keep Gaza's economy "on the brink of collapse"
You have no right to land other people already live on, unless you buy it from them. Settlers have no rights. We’ve mixed past this since colonization.
Eh, some of it. I won't pretend to be an expert, but I'm pretty sure most American land was acquired by settlers simply marching in with guns and saying "We're here now". That's to say nothing of the countless treaties that were signed and broken.
I don't exactly think the Osage were contacted about the Louisiana Purchase.
No. I’m saying that when a conflict starts there is no “right” anymore in the colloquial sense. And while I can easily blame am aggressors in a conflict for removing the comfort of peace, it’s much harder to justify blaming the entity attacked for its response.
Well since 2004/2005 there have been zero Palestinian homes or land stolen by Israeli’s in Gaza. And as a result 100k+ rockets, the world’s largest suicide bombing campaign and endless militant attacks have come out of the territory. So from am Israeli perspective, if those things stop; even if it means that a few Palestinians get kicked out of their homes, it’s a win.
If your answer to that is to bomb hospitals killing children and innocent civilians because maybe it’ll hit a terrorist too, I have no sympathy, you’re a war criminal
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