Biggest mistake is the optics. I mean, when has fighting back against your oppressor ever gotten reported on positively in the news?
This reminds me of a useful tip: If you ever feel the need to apologize to someone you know was in the wrong; they were abusing you. The language they used in this is a textbook example of how someone acts when they feel like they need to apologize to their abuser.
Yes, yes, all the Israeli and foreign tourist teens who were raped and murdered on that day obviously were the real oppressors. It was about time someone „fought back“ against those partying teens in particular… that is what you’re implying.
How about we stop cheering for rape and murder for a moment? Just because Israel is overstepping hard doesn’t mean Hamas terror attack was rightful.
I took a stance against you people cheering for massacres. If you think that this is showing a lack of basic human compassion then all irony is lost on you.
[...] you disgusting liberal pig.
I will not respond in kind if that is what you were hoping for.
And I take a stand against liberals like you who think history started on Oct. 7th, 2023.
If you abuse someone to the point of taking their humanity away and they fight back and kill you, the principle blame is not on the one who killed you.
Every Israeli must face the fact that their country is a racist apartheid regime that it is in a state of constant fascist war, every Zionist must reckon with the fact that they will sacrifice their bodies to uphold racism. No Israeli was ever safe in Israel but their voices cannot be valued over the Palestinians. What you are doing is perverting the discussion because you are uncomfortable with the idea of the oppressed fighting back.
Let me put this in a language you can understand in your fragile view of the world, if Jewish prisoners escaped from a concentration camp in Nazi Germany and killed every single guard and kidnapped members of their family as hostages, what would you say to them? Be more civil? See how easily your “concern” falls apart.
Teen girls and tourists at a musical festival are not Nazi guards from a concentration camp. You forgot that little detail in your speech. I'm pretty certain most of the massacre victims never killed anyone. What you're suggesting is tribal guilt by association.
What you’re suggesting is tribal guilt by association.
Yes I do think that partying next to an open air concentration camp is grounds for being caught in the crossfire of war and getting killed. Israel is a militant country where mandatory military service is required for all of its citizens, not caring for the well being of Palestinians is a fundamental part of Israeli society, so much so that it led to a company hosting a festival next to Gaza.
If I wanted to party I wouldn’t do it next to fucking Auschwitz.
I mean, we’ve now had extensive evidence showing that Israel fired on Israeli civilians (e.g. Nova) and extensive evidence that Israel has no issue bombing hospitals (e.g. al-Ahli).
Edit: we also have extensive evidence showing that Israel has no issue firing up on and injuring thousands of innocent protestors.
As I've already said below: Thousands of murders from one side don't make hundreds of murders from the other side rightful. If you think that massacres are an okay tool to use in some circumstances then there is something deeply wrong with you.
Where’s the evidence that Hamas killed thousands of civilians? All we have evidence of is that thousands of Israelis died, but we also know that a good chunk of civilians were killed in friendly fire incidents. In fact, per Israel’s own admission, they had to revise down their casualty numbers because bodies they thought were Israeli civilians were actually Hamas. Civilian deaths are supposed to have commensurate military objectives. While that’s clearly not been true for Israel’s bombing of Gaza, it’s far less clear because of how little is known about what actually happened on October 7th.
Videos of Nova show armed personnel amongst civilians opening fire against Hamas. Reports from October 7th include that Israeli tanks fired at Israeli civilians, and that Israel created a blockade for cars escaping Nova. Video from helicopters in the area suggest that nondescript sedans were targeted fleeing the area. News reports at the time suggest that many Kibbutz were heavily armed because of fear of Hamas, and in fact a number of them (particularly those closest to the border) were made up of ex-IDF. These have all been reported on by Israeli and/or Western media.
How many of those “hundreds of murders” were caused by the IDF? How many from people caught in the crossfire? How many were “ex-IDF civilians with guns”? Hamas’ objective was pretty clear: take hostages, because that’s the only way they’ve seen that works to put pressure on the Israeli government. Do I have issues with taking civilian hostages? Of course! But that objective is diametrically opposed to going on a mass murder spree. Dead hostages aren’t hostages: they’re martyrs.
There’s no way of knowing what circumstances the hundreds of dead civilians died in because the Israeli government has been covering it up in order to spread propaganda like “40 beheaded babies” and whatnot. That, in itself, should raise red flags.
Am I denying that any civilians died purely at the hands of Hamas? Of course not. Shit happens during conflict, especially when the people you’re fighting just spent the past few decades shooting up children at your peaceful protests. You’re angry, adrenaline is pumping, and (by the numbers) you probably lost one of your parents to IDF action. What I am denying is that it was systematic behaviour and that Hamas was purely responsible for hundreds of murders.
Hamas, as an organization, does not have a problem with Israeli civilians. Hamas’ problem has always been with the Zionist state, the government, and the IDF in support of Zionism. If you’ve been listening to the interviews of hostages released early in the conflict, you’d see that they’re rather positive on the ordeal. Their professed goal was to claim hostages (which they did do, and which we’ve seen has successfully stirred up discontent with the Netanyahu government). You’re claiming that Hamas actually had a second goal, which was to go on a mass murder spree. This is not only diametrically opposed to their professed goal, but also serves to rile up Israeli support for the Netanyahu government. Unless you think Hamas is literally run by room-temperature IQ imbeciles, you should reconsider.
Nobody of us was there. Luckily. You honestly believe that Hamas indeed invaded Israel with the intent to take hostages and "get rid of the oppressors" (like they announced before they invaded) but somehow Israel itself was faster to murder off its own civilians? That's mental.
Do I have issues with taking civilian hostages? Of course! But that objective is diametrically opposed to going on a mass murder spree.
Let's talk about sick reasoning then. Do you think the 3,000 rockets (Hamas claims it was 5,000) they shot at Israel on that single day were meant to take hostages, too? Certainly not. Hamas has been, and still is, claiming responsibility for deadly rocket and suicide attacks on an almost weekly, now almost daily, basis. Mass murder is evidentially not beneath them. I doubt they would suddenly change their strategy when face to face with people they think of as oppressors. It's also not hard to imagine a sick reasoning behind it: "Fill up the car, kill the rest."
Edit: Just to be sure, before the next person responds without reading half the thread: What Israel does in the name of revenge right now can only be considered as war crimes and is clearly wrong. That still does not make any actions of Hamas rightful. There can be two bad actors in the same story.
In total, since 2004, rockets fired by Hamas have killed less than 50 people in Israel. For comparison, the Great March of Return (a peaceful protest by Palestinians in the Gaza Strip) led to the IDF killing more than 200 Palestinians.
In total, since 2004, rockets fired by Hamas have killed less than 50 people in Israel.
That is neither the official nor a realistic number, by order of magnitude. It is also in no way a counter argument against my point „Hamas has shown that it is capable of deadly violence“.
„IDF is worse“ is also not relevant here. One mass murder does not make another mass murder rightful.
The iof murdered hundreds of israelis on October 7th by dropping bombs and firing tanks on them. There is literally footage of this you can watch and see for yourself.
The accusation of mass rapes is another piece of shitty propaganda trotted out by israel to further try to discredit Palestinians and Hamas.
Why the fuck would people fighting for the freedom of their illegally imprisoned families, children and friends, detour to have a mass rape (and find 40 babies to behead at an outdoor rave), midway through their plan for aquiring folk for the hostage swap and taking them back to Gaza?
Do you also believe the terrorists called Monday and Tuesday hid their guns in working mri machines? Fucking zionist.
The iof murdered hundreds of israelis on October 7th by dropping bombs and firing tanks on them. There is literally footage of this you can watch and see for yourself.
Citation needed. Sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Why the fuck would people [...]
Religious fundamentalism.
Fucking zionist.
Massacres are wrong. Period. Stating that doesn't make me a Zionist. Thousands of murders from one side don't make hundreds of murders from the other side rightful. Massacres are never the right tool for any cause.
Mondoweiss was founded with the stated goal to create an anti-Zionist platform. Electronic Intifada literally has the word intifada in its name, which translated as "shake off/get rid of" [Israel] and has quite some ugly history to it. If you believe these to be remotely capable of being trustworthy sources for the topic at hand I have a bridge to sell you.
At least it solves the question of why you people have such a skewed world view that it's possible to imply that massacres of civilians are rightful. Fits right in with lemmy.ml, though.
Just gonna say that Mondoweiss was founded and is run by a Jew, so your accusation is... interesting.
It's not an accusation. It's literally the self-description of Philip Weiss. He proudly calls himself anti-Zionist. So maybe that's not the best source if you want an unbiased opinion on the topic of Israel.
Either way I know you don't care.
I do care or else I wouldn't be here. I do care that people that obviously are capable of using technology and speak English are still drawn towards these conspiracy theories and fundamentalist ideas. Even when presented with all the facts and the great knowledge of Wikipedia (which also has flaws, but it's still a valuable resource for learning history) at their finger tips, they still choose to believe in the rightfulness of "an eye for an eye - kill them all!". Why? Nothing was gained by any massacre except more violence.
but both clearly cite their sources
Citing sources is an important part of the scientific method. It's not the only part.
Do you believe that to be an insult? Israel and Palestine should both have the right to their own independent state. That's consensus among almost all members of the UN.
You see it in discussions about the situation as well. People want to negotiate the Palestinians/ Palestinian supporters down, even if they agree with them, because everyone knows Israel isn’t going to budge. A ceasefire is completely out of the question, obviously
It popped Israel’s iron wall illusion, and made all the collaborator Arab governments look stupid. Israel can’t defend itself how will it ever defend them against their own people?
The savagery and brutality by Israel is because they want to rebuild their iron wall image that was revealed to be an illusion. They want us to be afraid of it but all I can see is how much it needed western aid to survive. I and many like me are more convinced than ever that Israel can and will be defeated.
I might have been in the minority of Arabs who had the phantasy of coexistence with Zionist settlers. After they revealed that their hatred and racism is the default and not some fringe position, I realize that an open war is the only way and option. Either us or us, no place for them.
The demands seem to be reasonable, but this cought my eye: ‘We stress that the Palestinian people have the capacity to decide their future and to arrange their internal affairs, and thus no party in the world has the right to impose any form of guardianship on the Palestinian people or decide on their behalf’
If Hamas is advocating for that, why haven’t they held a single election since 2006 and have erected a de facto military dictatorship and destroyed any opposition by force?
If Hamas is advocating for that, why haven’t they held a single election since 2006
You have to ask Palestinian Authority (PA) for that, not Hamas. Hamas has won both Gaza and the West Bank, but PA refuse to relinquish it’s power and forcefully remain to govern the West Bank.
It was Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) that delayed and then cancel the election since that. Most probably because of his internal political struggle within Fatah itself, and he’s afraid that Hamas will win again and prove the irrelevance of Fatah amongst the Palestinians.
Anyway, the Israel is happy that Abu Mazen stay because they need a weak leader as puppet that govern the brittle West Bank. As long as the weak Fatah remains, Hamas will also remain to be (designated as) a terrorist org, so they won’t be able to bring about the cause of Palestinian people to the negotiation table.
If Hamas is advocating for that, why haven’t they held a single election since 2006
they only had an election in 2006 because the us and the west pushed the palestinian authority to do it, despite the pa warning the US about the possibility of hamas being brought to power.
Wikipedia link for people that don't feel comfortable visiting the website of an organization that is officially regarded as terrorists in their country:
Summary: They want the 1967 borders back for themselves but without legitimizing the existence of Israel. They did make an effort to make the document less antisemitic and more nuanced than the 1988 paper. PLO and PA are explicitly recognized but differences downplayed. It is regarded as controversial within Hamas because for many it's not radical enough.
It’s hilarious that we can make the exact same statement about Israel /:
Yeah both should go, Israeli government AND Hamas. Except Hamas actually agreed to new elections while Bibi is having fun delaying it all while he finishes off the genocide. It’s sad that his life’s dream is to be like Hitler. Didn’t expect that from a Jew, but certainly expected that from a Zionists.
Its frame of reference is Islam, which determines its principles, objectives and means.
This part isn’t going to sell many people on Hamas. There’s a lot of justification of violence in their text. (Although that could be said about a great number of religious texts).
However, their demands (page 15) don’t seem too difficult to meet…. As long as they know they aren’t getting any additional land—Israel will never go for that.
Then Israel must be destroyed completely. This is not a hyperbole, Israel does not deserve to exist. Israel is a paper tiger of US imperialism, it will die when the US is unable to prop up its corpse any longer.
This part isn’t going to sell many people on Hamas. There’s a lot of justification of violence in their text. (Although that could be said about a great number of religious texts).
Islamophobia rears its head once again. What’s the other side? A racist, ethno-supremacist apartheid state of barely indistinguishable neo-nazis that’s hellbent on being a US lapdog against the Arab world (and the Global South).
Willfully misinterpreting my words, Israel as a nation state is separate from Israelis.
Most of those people were just born there. Doing their thing. What do you propose happens to them?
Live in Palestine as equals or leave the country never to return. Many “Israelis” are settlers who saw the nation as a ripe spot to cozy up while displacing the indigenous Palestinians, they will be the first to flee back to their imperial core. The ones who were born into this mess will be citizens of Palestine rebuilding the country on top of the corpse of Zionists who tried to take it from them and their Palestinian brothers in arms.
There are Israelis resisting the occupation, unfortunately they are the exception not the rule as nearly all facets of Israeli life is consumed by hatred for Arabs since birth until death.
It’s hardly willful, you did say they should be destroyed completely. That’s pretty open for interpretation.
So, let’s say the current government of Israel steps down, and they hold a fair election between everyone to start a new democracy. Borders are gone, no more fighting. The new government rebuilds Gaza. All the citizens of Israel keep their lives under the new system. And religious discrimination and all acts of violence, no matter how you think god feels, becomes a crime — does that work? Did I miss anything?
Oh, and feel free to kill the former government. Don’t tell them until after haha.
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