Keeponstalin

@Keeponstalin@lemmy.world

Say no to authoritarianism, say yes to socialism

This profile is from a federated server and may be incomplete. Browse more on the original instance.

Keeponstalin, (edited )

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/23d7cfeb-e4bf-4337-a7fb-264900049df5.jpeghttps://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/eab5735d-6842-44f5-a905-24ae2024c574.jpeghttps://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/891b10a4-7342-4ffb-9f9d-7dda055753ca.jpeghttps://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/c6441beb-8744-4185-9ea3-65c97d6e4396.jpeg

awrad.org/…/Public Opinion Poll - Gaza War 2023.p…

pcpsr.org/…/Poll 79 English fulltext March 2021.p…

Keeponstalin, (edited )

Maybe it’s because it was reported by Israel public broadcaster KAN. They also admitted fault when they shot those unarmed civilians holding makeshift white flags which ended up being hostages.

We do know half the bombs dropped are precision and half are ‘dumb bombs.’ I don’t know of any comprehensive report on it but it seems to me that they admit fault when there’s no possible plausible deniability.

I don’t really see how that weakens the case that they target civilians when they have been repeatedly bombing schools, hospitals, refugee camps, residential areas, and self-proclaimed safe zones for months; justifying it by claiming Hamas combatants were in the area. And that’s compounded onto cutting off the food, water, aid, and electricity for Gaza that they already controlled. Why else would you cut those off if not to target civilians?

Keeponstalin,

I’ll retract that these bombs were precision, that doesn’t really help the argument since many civilians die when they do use precision bombs on civilian locations.

Israel claims they only target Hamas, in practice the vast majority of who they kill are civilians (mostly women and children). I’ve only found evidence of Hamas using civilian infrastructure twice in the 2014 war, which I can link if you want, can you share the evidence you’ve found?

The disengagement was not an end to the occupation, in many cases it became a more brutal form of it. It also highlights that the settlements never ended in West Jerusalem or the West Bank, only Gaza. I’ll share sources for why international organizations regard the blockade as a continued form of occupation, it boils down to Gaza still being under Israeli military control with Israel controlling its imports, exports, food, water, electricity, sea access, air space, etc.

www.btselem.org/gaza_strip

atlanticcouncil.org/…/gaza-israel-occupied-intern…

hrw.org/…/israel-disengagement-will-not-end-gaza-…

amnesty.org/…/israel-opt-israel-must-lift-illegal…

books.google.com/books?id=hYiIWVlpFzEC&pg=PA4…

Keeponstalin,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/3c679b60-39dd-4b30-987f-ff162bed7c97.png

Keeponstalin,

Maybe not as official military doctrine, but idk the rhetoric seems clear to me

“The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy,” Israel Defense Forces official Daniel Hagari said, according to Haaretz.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Sunday that Palestinian civilians being killed en masse are simply “collateral damage” in his military’s destruction of Gaza.

“Gaza will eventually turn into a city of tents. There will be no buildings. The ground maneuver will surprise Hamas,” the official said in a stark warning to the terrorist group behind the weekend assault that killed more than 1,200 Israelis.

Keeponstalin, (edited )

A few things about the civilian casualty statistics: the statistic that 90% of casualties in wars are civilians don’t seem to be supported from what I can tell. It varies a lot but for example the civilian casualty ratio for WWII was like 67%. For the 2008 Gaza war the civilian casualty ratio was more like 74% (noncombatants) and 64% for the 2014 war (unless you only look at IDF sources, then it’s more like 40%). I can’t really get details on the 61%, are they counting all males 14+ as combatants? Even then it comes to 69% civilian casualties. I don’t see how they got to 61%, which is still very high for modern conflicts as stated in the article you linked.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio

gwern.net/doc/politics/2010-roberts.pdf

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_War

en.wikipedia.org/…/List_of_Israeli_strikes_and_Pa…

You find collective punishment reasonable? You seem to believe Gaza is somehow its own nation despite being an occupied territory. Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem have always been under Israeli military control since 1967, when Israel aimed to take those territories by initiating the six-day war. Previously, Israel ethnically cleansed Palestine during the civil war and war for independence in 1947-48 with Plan Dalet and its previous iterations. After independence, the remaining Palestinians within now Israel were subject to harsh military law, until eased to 2nd class citizens they are today. Meanwhile, those military practices have been implemented on the West Bank, Gaza, and east Jerusalem since 1967. Except Gaza with the unilateral disengagement and blockade, which in many respects is harsher than the brutal martial law ongoing in east Jerusalem and the west bank. Palestinians have had no civil or human rights under Israeli military control. This is an apartheid state. Popular resistance began as nonviolent with the 1st intifada, until violence escalated after the IDF responded with lethal force. Violent resistance to the apartheid did not come out of nowhere. Before 1948, while early Zionists like Ben Guerion were advocating for partition, Palestinian officials were advocating for a unitary state instead of partition. Israel has never been interested in peace because they covet the Palestinian land but without the Palestinians. Keep in mind Israel as it exists today, is an apartheid state for the Palestinians. Not only do you ignore the 2017 Hamas charter, but that article doesn’t represent the 1988 charter quite right. Yeah of course the 1988 charter is super terrible, it was created by a fundamentalist resistance group under occupation and had no popular support. That doesn’t reflect the will of Palestinians at all. The two most popular goals are sovereignty and right to return, not genocide. This has been a cycle of violence between the Colonizer/Occupier and Colonized/Occupied. A one state solution with equal rights for all is what needs to happen with international pressure for this cycle of violence to end.

imeu.org/article/plan-dalet

forward.com/…/israel-land-conquest-1967-occupatio…

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law#Israel

en.wikipedia.org/…/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israe…

en.wikipedia.org/…/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests

hrw.org/…/israels-use-draconian-military-orders-r…

amnesty.org/…/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispo…

…wikisource.org/…/Cablegram_from_the_Secretary-Ge…

encyclopedia.com/…/palestinian-arab-congresses

avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

foreignaffairs.com/…/israel-palestine-one-state-s…

mondoweiss.net/2018/01/examining-myths-israel/

theintercept.com/…/israel-palestine-history-peace

Keeponstalin,

Hamas and the PA don’t control countries. They control internally occupied territories under military control of Israel (different degrees in Gaza and the West Bank), which controls all imports, exports, food, water, travel, etc of the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Gaza is literally undergoing famine extreme water scarcity, with extremely limited medical aid by the design of Israel. Israel has been in complete control, either internally or externally, of Gaza and the West Bank since 1967

International pressure is how this ends, like it did with South Africa

Keeponstalin, (edited )

The siege has led to shortages of basic items such as food and fuel. It has also stymied Gaza’s potential for long-term economic development. Chronic problems, such as access to education, healthcare and clean water, have become more pronounced.

Since the beginning of the siege, Israel has launched four protracted military assaults on Gaza: in 2008, 2012, 2014 and 2021. Each of these attacks has exacerbated Gaza’s already dire situation. Thousands of Palestinians have been killed, including many children, and tens of thousands of homes, schools and office buildings have been destroyed.

Rebuilding has been next to impossible because the siege prevents construction materials, such as steel and cement, from reaching Gaza.

Over the years, Israeli missile attacks and ground incursions have also damaged Gaza’s pipelines and sewage treatment infrastructure. As a result, sewage often seeps into drinking water, which has resulted in a sharp increase in waterborne disease.

More than 95 percent of Gaza’s water has been rendered unsafe for drinking, according to the UN.

Plans to improve Gaza’s water quality have been thwarted by the ongoing power crisis. Water projects are among the largest consumers of electricity. Without enough power to maintain existing water and sanitation systems, it is impossible to build new ones.

Many homes in Gaza rely on electric pumps to push water to the top of the building. No electricity for them means no water.

www.aljazeera.com/…/a-guide-to-the-gaza-strip

Keeponstalin,

amnesty.org/…/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-tort…

www.btselem.org/torture

Yeah dude, totally no evidence Israel uses brutal torture techniques

Keeponstalin,

I agree, baked Mac n Cheese reigns supreme

Keeponstalin,

If Israel decided to end the apartheid, that 14% support Hamas has in Gaza would go away. Hamas is bad and does terrible things, obviously. Hamas is also a reactionary response to life under permanent Israeli Occupation since 1967. It’s been a one state reality. International pressure should make Israel/Palestine an equal state for all. Both Hamas and Israel officials Should be brought to an international court to hold them accountable for their war crimes

Keeponstalin,

“On 19 December 2023, between 2000 and 2300 hours, IDF reportedly surrounded and raided Al Awda building, also known as the “Annan building”, in Al Remal neighborhood, Gaza City, where three related families were sheltering in addition to Annan family. According to witness accounts circulated by media sources and Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor, while in control of the building and the civilians sheltering there, the IDF allegedly separated the men from the women and children, and then shot and killed at least 11 of the men, mostly aged in their late 20’s and early 30’s, in front of their family members. The IDF then allegedly ordered the women and children into a room, and either shot at them or threw a grenade into the room, reportedly seriously injuring some of them, including an infant and a child. OHCHR has confirmed the killings at Al Awdabuilding, although the details and circumstances of the killings are still under verification. IDF has not released any information on the incident.”

That’s some 1948 shit right there

Keeponstalin,

“As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows,” writes Pappe, “historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict…The Zionist historical account of how the disputed land became the state of Israel is based on a cluster of myths that subtly cast doubt on the Palestinians’ moral right to the land…This book challenges these myths, which appear in the public domain as indisputable truths. These statements are, to my eyes, distortions and fabrications that can—and must—be refuted through a closer examination of the historical record.”

mondoweiss.net/2018/01/examining-myths-israel/

Keeponstalin,

That’s a completely revisionist version of the creation of the state of Israel. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine was planned. And no, Palestinians do not want to genocide all the Jews. That stance has never remotely been popular in any respect, before or after 1948.

Suggested reading:

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. By Ilan Pappe

HISTORY OF MODERN PALESTINE: ONE LAND, TWO PEOPLES. by Ilan Pappe

Free on Library Genesis or your local library

Excerpt of Ten Myths of Israel. By Ilan Pappe:

None of this, Pappe argues, was unique because “Zionism was a settler colonial movement, similar to the movements of Europeans who had colonized the two Americas, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand… Settler colonialism is motivated by a desire to take over land in a foreign country, while classical colonialism covets the natural resources in its new geographic possession… The problem was that the new ‘homelands’ were already inhabited by other people. In response, the settler communities argued that the new land was theirs by divine or moral right, even if, in cases other than Zionism, they did not claim to have lived there thousands of years ago. In many cases, the accepted method for overcoming such obstacles was the genocide of the indigenous locals.”

From the beginning, Palestinian resistance was depicted as motivated by hate for Jews. The diaries of the early Zionists tell a different story, They are filled with anecdotes revealing how the settlers were well received by the Palestinians, who offered them shelter and in many cases taught them how to cultivate the land. “Only when it became clear that the settlers had not come to live alongside the native population, but in place of it, did the Palestinian resistance begin,” writes Pappe. “And when that resistance started, it quickly took the form of every other anti-colonialist struggle.”

Keeponstalin,

Hey, I’m glad you went out of your way to check for criticism. Holding skepticism and looking for verification is a great habit to have. However, I think it’s just as important to go farther and look into the criticisms to find out how credible they are. I have already looked into both the criticisms and their counters when it comes to Ilan Pappe. I was completely skeptical about what he writes considering what I thought I knew about the conflict. It was only after checking the criticisms, their counters, and seeking independent verification that I came to trust Pappe as a reputable source.

Here’s Pappe’s response to Benny Morris, where he debunks Morris’ claims

electronicintifada.net/content/…/5040

Make your own conclusions, to me it’s clear Morris is the one with myopic sources as he uses only the Israeli archives while Pappe and others cross reference them with Arab sources and oral history.

The CAMERA criticisms are easily debunked

www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/42571

mondoweiss.net/…/we-must-expel-arabs-and-take-the…

“Ben-Gurion’s 5 October 1937 letter thoroughly vindicates Ilan Pappé’s reading; indeed, the Pappé quotes to which CAMERA objects seem almost mild when compared to the actual words Ben-Gurion penned to his son. The more literal translation of the Ben-Gurion direct quote (“We must expel Arabs and take their place”) is actually stronger than Pappé’s freer rendering (“The Arabs must go”), although the meaning is basically the same. As for Pappé’s paraphrase, it is as accurate and comprehensive as any so succinct a sentence could possibly be.”

I don’t know why you’d take a reddit thread as evidence when there’s plenty of actually reputable historians praising Pappe’s work and credibility. You can find links to them in his wiki page.

Yeah, he openly admits his bias unlike others like Benny Morris. That doesn’t make what he’s talking about any less true, he’s just not hiding his bias. It’s an “alternate narrative” because the conventional narrative is a revisionist form of history. That’s what differentiates “new historians” compared to the old Historians of Israel, once the Israeli gov archives became declassified in the 1990’s.

Keeponstalin,

“The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy,” Israel Defense Forces official Daniel Hagari said, according to Haaretz.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Sunday that Palestinian civilians being killed en masse are simply “collateral damage” in his military’s destruction of Gaza.

“Gaza will eventually turn into a city of tents. There will be no buildings. The ground maneuver will surprise Hamas,” the official said in a stark warning to the terrorist group behind the weekend assault that killed more than 1,200 Israelis.

Keeponstalin, (edited )

Palestinians who are charged with an offense are subjected to Israeli military courts that have been condemned by human rights organizations. According to Amnesty International: “Virtually all cases of Palestinians brought before Israeli military courts end in convictions. Most convictions are the result of plea bargains. This is because Palestinian defendants know the entire system is so unfair that if they go on trial, they will be convicted and given a longer sentence.”

Not that they have any civil rights back in gaza and the west bank under the occupying force anyway. I wonder how many prisoners they’ll choose to collect during the ceasefire this time

Keeponstalin, (edited )

thenation.com/…/why-the-us-really-bombed-hiroshim…

www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-05/…/6672616

Here’s a few

libcom.org/…/1945-us-responses-atomic-bombing-hir…

"Certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

  • U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey’s 1946 Study

"It always appeared to us that, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse."

  • General Henry H. “Hap” Arnold Commanding General of the U.S. Army Air Forces Under President Truman

"Careful scholarly treatment of the records and manuscripts opened over the past few years has greatly enhanced our understanding of why Truman administration used atomic weapons against Japan. Experts continue to disagree on some issues, but critical questions have been answered. The consensus among scholars is the that the bomb was not needed to avoid an invasion of Japan. It is clear that alternatives to the bomb existed and that Truman and his advisers knew it."

  • J. Samuel Walker Chief Historian U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission
Keeponstalin,

Personally, hearing that the actual generals that took part in that theater did not think it was necessary and that victory was assured as soon as a blockade was possible. That’s enough for me to believe the bombs being dropped were for other reasons other than for a surrender. Like a show of strength to the rest of the world. But that’s my own conclusion. It’s always important to hold some skepticism and seek out more sources imo

Keeponstalin,

truthout.org/…/ilan-pappe-israel-s-goal-is-to-hav…

Keeponstalin,

“As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows,” writes Pappe, “historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict…The Zionist historical account of how the disputed land became the state of Israel is based on a cluster of myths that subtly cast doubt on the Palestinians’ moral right to the land…This book challenges these myths, which appear in the public domain as indisputable truths. These statements are, to my eyes, distortions and fabrications that can—and must—be refuted through a closer examination of the historical record.”

mondoweiss.net/2018/01/examining-myths-israel/

Keeponstalin,

Everything has bias, and it’s important to be aware of that. What’s more important is the substance of what’s being reported. It’s good to look for other independent reporting and cross reference multiple sources when available

In an opinion piece like this, I’d look at the sources cited within the article and also look for other sources to cross reference

Israel criminalized a human rights group following report of a sexually assaulted Palestinian child (electronicintifada.net)

Israel designated a human rights group as a terrorist organization shortly after the US State Department inquired about a report detailing the rape of a Palestinian child by Israeli prison authorities....

Keeponstalin, (edited )

Defense for Children International-Palestine

It’s mentioned multiple times if you click on and read the article

dci-palestine.org/israeli_interrogator_sexually_a…

Israel and US are at odds over conflicting visions for postwar Gaza (apnews.com)

Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, this week announced that Israel would retain an open-ended security presence in Gaza. Israeli officials talk of imposing a buffer zone to keep Palestinians away from the Israeli border. They rule out any role for the Palestinian Authority, which was ousted from Gaza by Hamas in 2007...

Keeponstalin,

theintercept.com/…/israel-palestine-history-peace

Keeponstalin,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/aaa06ac1-0e63-49ce-a5e0-f5ef977f2a69.jpeg

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • provamag3
  • thenastyranch
  • magazineikmin
  • ethstaker
  • GTA5RPClips
  • InstantRegret
  • rosin
  • love
  • Youngstown
  • slotface
  • khanakhh
  • kavyap
  • everett
  • DreamBathrooms
  • megavids
  • osvaldo12
  • tester
  • cisconetworking
  • tacticalgear
  • ngwrru68w68
  • Durango
  • cubers
  • mdbf
  • normalnudes
  • anitta
  • modclub
  • Leos
  • JUstTest
  • All magazines
    •