I thought at first it was some fun leftist lgbt place but quickly I ran into violent bloodthirsty comments that made my skin crawl. there are also many of my lovely fellow transfems over there ugh. it is really sad when people are lost into the void of extremism. But I don’t really blame them however I grieve them.
Itt: people who fancy themselves woke use the age-old fascist projection trick and also think everyone who thinks outside the propaganda paradigm the tiniest bit are bots with multiple accounts, and/or paid by the see see pee and eff ess bee. 🤭
A lot of people in the lemmy.world instance loves to spend time making threads about .ml or lemmygrad. Sounds like unnecessary drama at least for the lemmy.ml instance.
“Guys guys guys, lets federate so everyone can be connected everywhere!”
" Guys guys guys, why are you so occupied talking about these awful instances that we’re intrinsically linked too via federation? gawd, so much unnecessary drama"
Hi just migrated from Lemmy.ml. just wondering what a tankie actually is? I’ve heard it used a lot especially on Lemmy. My guess is some kind of pro CCP kind of communist but that’s my best guess
Edit: Nvm just googled it. Its pretty much what I wrote.
Depends on whether the person saying it is a fellow leftie or a rightwinger brainlet. To the first, it’s what you described - an anti-Marxist communist. To the second group, anyone left of Nixon.
IMO a tankie on the left is just a pure anti-west authoritarian cosplaying as a communist - the communism is largely window dressing and they are generally perfectly happy defending Russia (obviously not communist) or authoritarian nonsense from China and other communist countries.
Wtf is an anti-Marxist communist? Is that like a swimmer that can’t swim? Arizona just outlawed abortion, and have senators speaking in tongues while praying on the floor of the house. President Biden is fully endorsing a genocide in the Middle East. Trump might become the first dictator of America.
I’m a white, upper middle class boomer living in America who is registered independent, but consistently voted for Democrats for the past 28 years. I did vote for Ross Perot in ‘92, because I wanted a third party. I’m as far removed from a “tankie” as you can get.
Why is it wrong to think for yourself and form your own opinions? Ya’ll just want to hate on people to pretend you have some control in this chaotic world.
It makes me sad that so many want to spread hate instead of love.
That’s fair. I’m more worried about climate change than the pettiness of leftist infighting, so I will continue to apologize for any group that is anti-capitalist.
I’m pragmatic enough to understand that when a planned economy comes, and it will, we may not have the time and opportunities to choose which structures replace capitalism. It may be an amalgamation of many socialist strategies.
I find it pointless to bicker over socialism, when fascism is the bigger threat. But it is entertaining.
Neither are social democrats, but we take help where we can get it. If we exclude anyone anti-fascist, that division will be exploited. We can’t afford to lose sight of the true enemy, the billionaire ruling class.
Council communism is basically methadone therapy for Marxists, for those that can’t make the leap to Anarchism. Council Communism is essentially indistinguishable (in practice, theory is a bit different) from Syndicalism.
As to campism: Somehow it’s always the authoritarians calling for “left unity”, that of course meaning “follow Stalin”: Never, ever, do they sit down and actually consider the opinions of anti-auths. No, we don’t have the same goals: They want to rule, we don’t. And, no, we didn’t forget the Bolsheviks allying with fascists to stab Anarchists in the back.
“The anarchists point of view is the most disruptive element in the New Left and should be capitalized on in the most confusing ways,” the FBI wrote. Source
Why were the FBI okay with Anarchists, but not Marxists Leninist like the Black Panthers?
I can’t speak for the FBI but bullshit needs disruption, anyways, and confusion is the first step to enlightenment. Of course the FBI should’ve started by disrupting themselves but you can’t have everything in life.
Actually even the premise and also language used in that sentence makes me think we might be looking at a Discordian having infiltrated the FBI. What better place to author a zine than on Uncle Sam’s dime?
yeah you p much got it, (e: specifically they are v v chill with violence against innocents and authoritarianism to bring about their chosen regime. im already getting downvoted in this comment tho so yeah just go look at the wikipedia page 😭)
Oh yeah I forgot. Communism is bad, but mass killing brown Muslims is fine because they’re subhuman cannon fodder for furthering America’s Military Industrial Complex. Thanks for clearing that up.
Communism isn’t bad per se, authoritarianism is, but there are many authoritarian regimes going under the name ‘communist’, thus we have a term for that: tankie. Using different terms to describe the Israeli state (like fascist, ethno-nationalist, or Zionist) and its supporters does not mean it’s not bad. It really is! It’s just categorically different in the ideology espoused by them, and having language to describe that is not bad.
Intentionally missing the point of the irony behind Americans using words that allude to ignoring a genocide while actively ignoring a genocide they’re tax dollars are funding.
plenty of the people leveraging the word “tankie” against tankies are communists, or at least socialists, just less authoritarian ones. and i’d venture to guess that the vast majority of those people are anti-genocide, including the case of Gaza.
please take the smallest of measures to understand the positions at foot before stuffing straw men into everyone’s mouths. you look quite foolish here.
I block individuals. I think it can be good to expose myself to the eastern narrative a little since I’m only experiencing a western narrative. As well as eastern shitpost’s since I subscribe to 4chan
I find your innocence thinking the western narrative is not managed by CIA bots and shills, a bit cute. Just look at any discourse regarding Israel and Palestine and see how braindead liberals become bloodthirsty af when they realize many in the world don’t share their worldview.
An ideology and a political organization are obviously different. Just like republicanism and The Republican Party, democracy and The Democratic Party, socialism and The Socialist Party, etc.
destroying the state
That’s technically sedition, so, yes, illegal.
Capitalism
Nowhere in U.S. jurisprudence is “capitalism” (verbatim) explicitly protected as an economic system. The 14th Amendment’s Due Process Clause prevents the state from taking someone’s life, liberty, or property without a proper justification under the laws of the land. The Constitution protects individuals from the government. Freedom to contract is a principle that underpins the basis for a free-market economy.
After the Great Depression, the Court began to treat the freedom to contract as less than absolute, asserting that such freedom may be limited by the State’s interest to protect its citizens. Capitalism is a right guaranteed by the constitution but limited in scope to protect individuals against the dangers of laissez-faire capitalism.
class divides
There are no explicit laws in U.S. jurisprudence (that I know of or have turned up on brief internet searches) that enforce “class divides”.
money
Be it resources, precious metals, or legal tender, money is protected by the 14th Amendment’s Due Process Clause.
So we can conclude that the advocacy or practice of communism isn’t itself illegal. Forcing people to practice it or overthrowing the government and dissolving The Bill of Rights in order to force people to practice most certainly is.
I understand, however my non-pedantic point is that the US legal system works against Communism. The US is a firmly anti-Communist project both within and without.
Attempting to bring about Communism is impossible legally because it cannot be voted in, unless you believe it’s possible to simply ask a billionaire to not be.
One doesn’t have to ask; under the very same Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment, the legal argument would be, theoretically, that the vast accumulation of wealth and its legal and political ramifications violates the life, liberty, and property of other citizens.
The dissolution of the union and the United States government is also possible with the ratification of 2/3 majority of the states.
… literally anyone who thinks about it? The US Communist Party is one party, there are plenty of other parties that identify as communist. You don’t have to be called “The Communist Party” to be communist.
Laws are interpreted and wielded by those in power. The Democrats are already called Communists, what happens if a genuine Socialist party takes some amount of power?
That’s literally an argument against anything that exists at all. That’s kind of how laws work, linguistics is complicated so everyone’s interpretation is different, and many people in power intentionally misinterperet laws. But as it stands, communist parties are not banned. What you speak of is a big “what if”, and currently you saying communism as a whole is banned is simply wrong, even as an oversimplification.
It is a big stretch to turn “Parties other than the two largest ones in the country have considerable cultural, legal, and logistical obstacles to being able to participate in high-level American politics, and an unenforced law from 70 years ago banned one specific communist party before most of the provisions being repealed by congress and the law being overturned in state courts as unconstitutional” into “Communism is banned in the United States”. There is no legal way to criminally prosecute someone on the basis of them being a communist, or belonging to any specific communist party at all, in the modern day.
I’m not trying to be condescending or anything btw.
That’s very far from “banned”. That’s the point. Plenty of things are very disfavored legally, but it’s far-fetched to call them banned. Communism is one of them. There’s a whole list of openly socialist&/communist mayors in the US on Wikipedia, even. I can openly be extremely communist and the government won’t do anything about it. I can even attend a communist protest and that’s as legal as any other protest.
I could see “nearly banned” as a valid exaggeration though. And I definitely agree that the system is stacked against leftists in general, especially anyone identified as a “communist” or “socialist”, and hope for getting rid of the alt-right’s grasp on our country before most of us are destroyed by global warming is exponentially decreasing as time progresses. So I would totally say it’d make little difference in our fate if it were banned.
No but seriously it’s an unenforceable junk law that no one has bothered to take the time to repeal that was never even really used in the first place. I mean, the communist party runs candidates for office to this day. Someone finally tried to use it in 1972 to keep a communist candidate off the ballot and a federal district Court promptly ruled it unconstitutional.
Ah, fair, didn’t see that it got repealed. My original point was more to state that the legal system works against Communism, America is a thoroughly anti-Communist project both within and without.
I’d say more broadly the legal and political system works against any organizations that threaten the status quo, but yes America’s attitudes toward communism have been pretty obvious throughout the twentieth century. I just took issue with the idea that political parties or idealogies are illegal in and of themselves in the US, constitution still manages to protects some things.
In 1973, a federal district court in Arizona decided that the act was unconstitutional, and Arizona could not keep the party off the ballot in the 1972 general election (Blawis v. Bolin). In 1961, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that the act did not bar the party from participating in New York’s unemployment insurance system (Communist Party v. Catherwood).
So yes, the law passed during the the McCarthy era … and was afterwards declared unconstitutional.
Ah, fair, didn’t see that it got repealed. My original point was more to state that the legal system works against Communism, America is a thoroughly anti-Communist project both within and without.
I have literally never convinced someone of something by citing sources, and its a pain on mobile. Convince me or search it yourself. Sorry, a bit jaded on my end.
Yeah. Also, your instance is pretty well known for doing little about the vast numbers of hard right and alt right individuals on it who seek out and harass left leaning individuals, so it’s in both instances best interest to be separated.
Thanks for the heads up. Outside of a couple instances I see mentioned all the time, Im not really sure of the differences between them all and their reputations. Lemmy world was my first attempt, but two or three times the account creation did not work. I’m sure it was user error, but I’m not sure how exactly I messed up.
The decision to block the Lemmygrad instance was less a question of censorship, and more an issue of personal conviction. As a volunteer dedicating my personal resources and time to facilitating a space for users to create, discover, and discuss - not just on this instance, but across the Fediverse - I admit that this choice was made alone, selfishly, without the consent or thoroughly considering the collective opinion of the community. With the above said, sh.itjust.works has had the lemmygrad instance blocked from its first day.
Actually, there was a vote immediately after the defederation to see whether people wanted lemmygrad refederated, and about 80-90% of the votes were to stay defederated, so it seems the users of sh.itjust.works also don’t like grad.
edit: my mistake, turns out it was hexbear that was voted on, which has similar content
It’s worth noting about your edit: I’m pretty sure hexbear was the one that initiated defederation from shit over shit posters being transphobic and harassing users in dms.
You are correct, hexbear did defederate from sh.itjust.works about a week after federating with them, so the vote became moot.
The reason you gave is part of the reason hexbear admins gave, but I would take what they say with a grain of salt. I’ve seen people say things like “being trans in thoughts is a much different experiece than being trans in the way you dress, act, and look” and hexbear users will call that transphobic/uninclusive, as well as generally being vitriolic and unpleasant.
As an example, a post where someone says “Biden brings up minimum wage increase and asks other democrats to speak up” will have several comments from hexbear users saying “capitalist bootlickers defending Biden should be shot like the vermin they are.” Maybe some users harassed hexbear users for these comments? I personally didn’t see any but it’s definitely possible.
Lemmy.ml is still focused on FOSS and Privacy, Lemmygrad.ml is focused on Marxism-Leninism. As such, there are plenty of non-MLs on Lemmy.ml, including Anarchist communities, while this is banned on Lemmygrad.ml.
Very different instances, I wouldn’t call Lemmygrad.ml “mask off” Lemmy.ml.
Except lemmygrad users are realizing we all blocked their instance and are becoming more active in lemmy.ml to try and evade this, and so yeah, .ml is getting more and more like Lemmygrad
Can’t wait for this to become a systemic issue with Lemmy. Why does everything have to be ruined by tankies and conservatives? They know that nobody wants to talk to them, but they will evade and disrespect the rules just to make other people miserable.
Nah. Gig economy. Know anyone who can keep their shit down to one job these days?
It’s probably not, I think a lot of tankies are true believers (nobody pays for sponsored content in pillow talk. Yet. Yes ive made bad decisions.) but it could be.
If they don’t get talking points directly from a trollfarm, someone influential over there watches a lot of Russian propaganda.
On the other hand, they do love yelling at libs to stop supporting the Gaza genocide, so I like them until they also start bitching about fighting a fascist invasion.
They want to amplify the atrocities Israel is committing in Gaza because it increases the probability Trump gets elected, which would be a huge win for the Kremlin.
I’d guess there’s backroom deal making with Iran as well given the political dynamics there.
Could’ve run anyone other than biden. Could have offered us something, anything, that we actually want.
Biden could have proven he deserved two hours of my time in the past four years. Literally all he has to do, and theres still time, is “blockade against Cuba over. Blockade against Israel begin. All humanitarian aid must go through Palestine, Palestinian authorities must approve every shipment at the border, get right to loot at leisure”
Hell, they could even offer some of the accelerationist/unserious trump votes an actually good option to fucking engage them and take fascism off the table. They could do that. They don’t.
And when they do win with a good candidate, they still roll over and let the fascist have the seat (last time they ran a good candidate was 2000), so even if I did like someone and want to vote for them, if I see a D by their name, I know even if they win, they’ll never take office.
If you offer me a trolley problem, and I ask “why the fuck do you keep tying people to the other track, dude? What the fuck!?” And then after the fifth or six time just stop, I just stop signing off on your murders and step off the murder trolley, I’m not the monster here. … Actually, this is literally a description of a scene in ‘the good place’, and it’s a literal demon doing it to a terminally indecisive moral philosophy professor. Because its comically evil. Literally its a comedy and the audience is supposed to laugh at the absurdity of how pointlessly evil it is, and its the perfect metaphor for the democratic party.
Have any Conservative instances been de-federated, or are there any? I’ve noticed a HUGE influx of ‘Men’s Rights’ misogynists, wondering if they came from that happening.
Literally, the Bolsheviks were the reactionaries that suppressed and appropriated the Russian revolution, and said they were doing it at the time. ‘M-L’ is stalinism.
They’re just red star brand conservative reactionaries.
This is just a very braindead take. Not all types of authoritarian mindset are reactionary. Red fascism is an absurd take which was originated by CIA propaganda in the 50s.
Your critique of authoritarian states, does not make them equal. That is a centerist take that smells like a moral jerk off ritual.
Could argue that, and if you brought up Cuba I might lose, but it’s not the argument here.
Tankies, for historical reasons, with their Russia fetish, are reactionary. They fetishize a group of shitty reactionaries who killed all the communists (auth and otherwise). The origin of why we call them ‘tankies’ is a second wave of them being reactionaries who murdered all the communists.
Believe it or not, in the age those tankies lived, shit wasn’t easy. Trying to sabotage every meaningful conversation by hur dur tanky stuff is rather more braindead than being a conservative. Political change is messy, violent and fucked up in nature. Tankies committed atrocities and also provided some great shit to people who had nothing, like free healthcare and education, abortion rights and in 2 decades became an industrial nation.
Did they did a lot of wrongs? Yeah. Should we learn from them, yeah, did they also delivered, well they delivered, although with great price.
I’m typing this from a country so fucked up economically and politically, that you westerners won’t understand. But trying to magnify and dilute the conversation with weird moral optics does not make lives of us 3rd worlders easier. You want to ride your moral high horse while every political inaction will stump hundreds in a minute.
Why does everything have to be ruined by tankies and conservatives?
A lot of them are shills/bots. The Kremlin (maybe also the CCP, not sure) is supporting a bunch of political extremes, whether they agree with them or not.
Tbh, I’m not super worried, theres already been defederation with Hexbear and Lemmygrad. As they infect tanky safezones and cause more defederations because of it, non tankie specific federations are going to start becoming specifically anti Tankie in response. I mean, look at my comment calling them brain damaged, it hasnt been civility removed yet, which I feel is a good sign. So while they can always create new accounts on non Tankie federations, over time they are going to start having to hide their more violent revolution and dictator loving sides, which tbh, at that point I’ll tolerate their presence.
Edit: It’s kind of ironic how in a post where I called other people brain damaged, I wrote it like I was having a stroke. I’ve edited it to make it flow faaaaarrr better
I don’t know the story about a table. Which is surprising, because I grew up in a bright red community where delivering pithy metaphors about the futility of breaking bread with the opposition was sport. (For the record, I wouldn’t break bread with Nazis.)
This is the part I find hilarious. MLs think the reason people don’t like their outdated brand of communism is because they are brainwashed. The reality is that people don’t like their outdated brand of communism because tankies are insufferable, know-it-all autocrats who refuse to engage with any modern formulation of Marxist theory.
If MLs would be more academically engaged with contemporary political science, people would like their messaging much more. Of course then they’d probably realize that Lenin and Mao were just giant assholes, so I guess it’s a bit of a paradox.
I mean, their messaging IS shit, but I think one of the biggest flaws that cant be overcome even if they started acting less insufferably is that they are ok with and will defend tooth and nail any dictator that says they are communist. I do not for one second believe that Xi or Putin has ANY intention of furthering LGBTQ politics for instance. Tankies whole ideology isnt thought through and HEAVILY conflicting
Think of shitty kids who like to wreck everything they touch. Whenever they try to make their own clubhouse, it usually doesn’t last long because they wind up wrecking it themselves. And while they like to wreck things, they don’t actually like living in a wrecked clubhouse. They want to be able to wreck things and laugh as others suffer from their damage and have to fix it. So they invade other clubhouses because their own is always a fucking mess.
I have an account on lemmygrad and when I created it, I was asked about my politics. They formally accepted every left ideology but when you say anything remotely anti-authoritarian, you get downvoted into oblivion
Not doubting you, but what do you mean by “anti-authouritarian?” Presumably you’ve read Engels’ On Authority so you know what they are operating under the pretense of, I can see anti-Marxist takes getting removed or downvoted. It is Lemmygrad after all, not Lemmy EZLN or Lemmy Catalonia.
Lenin had some disagreements with Marx, i dont even like marx ans lenin is worse, and ‘marxist lenninist’ means ‘stalinist’. Which is even worse. You cannot call them ‘leftists’.
What is a leftist, if not someone advocating collective owmership of Capital? Leftist isn’t a syononym for “good,” of course, but I fail to see how Marxist-Leninists aren’t leftists.
In the USSR the serfs were still serfs even if they weren’t called that, the workers still didn’t own the means of production, and there was still a tiny room of delusional shit sticks making all the decisions, often wildly irrationally.
Better than one guy doing it, but no more, or not much more communist than the UK or France.
There were numerous struggles and issues with the USSR, of course. There was corruption, especially among the Politburo. The focus on heavy industry over light industry, though favorable during WWII, resulted in fewer luxury commodities, which resulted in liberalization and collapse.
Fundamentally, it is entirely silly to say that the USSR wasn’t leftist. It absolutely was, even if it was highly flawed and imperfect. In fact, it’s useful to analyze what went right (free eduaction, high home ownership, generous social safety net) and what went wrong (corruption, lack of luxury commodities, etc.) so as to come up with a better system.
That is, unless you think Marxism isn’t leftist, and think only Anarchism counts as leftist, in which case I really don’t know what to tell you.
That’s certainly a statement, backed up by nothing but posturing and not an ounce of analysis.
If you can meaningfully explain how Lenin and the Bolsheviks were not Marxists, I’d be very surprised, but I am willing to hear your case. What do you believe would have been the Marxist structure? The same as the USSR, just without the corruption? Is it just vibes and aesthetics?
Marx was, and I couldn’t stand reading that bastard because of how he talked about the ‘lumpenproletariat’, that shit made my blood boil, so maybe I’m missing something, pretty vague on specific structures of post revolutionary organization. More about what communism was and how to get it.
And its very cute to say the state is the workers, but when they have to switch to building impractical useless products to keep up with the irrational demands of the state, or be punished I think its pretty clearly unmasked as a lie, and blatantly insane to still claim.
I’m not claiming any one group or ideology owns the Russian revolution-it was a big tent, it was a big fight, and it took place over, at any given moment, at least half the day. Which is wild. I’m saying the Bolsheviks were reactionaries. They knew they were reactionaries. And they killed the communists.
What made you upset about the Lumpenproletariat? Either way, Marx describes a bit about what a Socialist state might look like in Critique of the Gotha Programme, but is careful not to actually decide anything or give a template.
I understand that you are saying the Bolsheviks were reactionaries. The Bolsheviks claimed the Anarchists were counter-revolutionaries. What evidence do you have that the Bolsheviks were against implementing Socialism and eventually Communism?
Reactionary is specifically used for enemies of the revolution, not the ones carrying it out.
I am not defending the killing of the Anarchists, but questioning the language of “reactionary” as used by you.
The justification for replacing the factory committees with the union system is because the factory committees were focusing competitively on local issues, rather than cooperatively at a national level. I don’t believe this makes it less leftist. This improved productivity in a time when the factories were more chaotic.
How would you propose the Bolsheviks could have handled the situation in a more thoroughly Communist manner, given what they had to work with at the time?
I am not defending it, I am asking what you would have done. I gave their justification for going with a different Socialist system, and you haven’t explained what you would have done, which is all I am asking for.
In what manner at all? Fascism is fucking horrible. I am recommending about Marx and Engels as examples of Leftists. Unless, of course, you think Communism is fascist, in which case I really don’t know what to tell you.
No, I’m not a Marxist. I agree with him in some points and agree with some libertarian Marxists but at the end, they say alot of stuff Bakunin, Kropotkin, Goldman, … said long before
I’m not surprised. If anything, I was surprised to be accepted into it at the first place. Sometimes I’m surprised by the low level of education some people have. You mentioned Catalonia. Some people don’t seem to know nor want to know anything about the Spanish civil war or the anything. I sometimes try to argue with people from different ideologies because I think it’s an opportunity for all to grow and sharpen their position but I’m not surprised to be downvoted. In no comment of this thread did I express surprise
I don’t even understand what that means. And some educated tankies will explain away why Stalin was right and Spain wasn’t ready for a revolution. But some people don’t know stuff.
it means that if you really believe that, you are gullible.
and I know “educated” tankies have put a lot of effort into some ham fisted explanations for why this and that bust have been the case, but, straight factually, with all the evidence we have, it shows that the USSR was a fascistic imperialist dictatorship using the aesthetic of communism, nowhere that the USSR intervened was spared from it trying to control the region.
infact that’s the entire reason we disparage them as tankies, because they support the use of tanks and military might to subjugate vassals and destroy any political group not preview to their control, political groups like workers not wanting to be controlled by some shareholder class (what, you think the Russian oligarchy came from nowhere over the last 30 years?) with little vested interest in the actual running of the workplace
That sounds like a big misunderstanding. I said that the bolsheviks were against the revolution in Spain and I thought you were the tankie disagreeing with me. What is your standpoint and what do you think mine is?
so, first off, my standpoint is that the Bolshevik were against both of the revolutions because they wanted to quasi annex the Iberian Peninsula as another soviet client state.
you, as far as i have understood, believe that the USSR supplied the spanish goverment under some noble “just help” goal instead of the backdoor annexation that the USSR has become famed for
Ok, I guess my reading comprehension sucks at the moment, sorry. It’s not my native language and I have other stuff occupying my mind right now.
I still don’t understand what you mean by “both of the revolutions” but my view is that there was an anarchist revolution going on and the Soviets were against it because it would undermine their legitimacy as only path toward liberation (which they were not, neither the only nor any path to liberation)
I thought they supported the republicans but I might be wrong. That would be even worse. I still don’t think it would have been realistic to annex the iberian peninsula. From all I know, they said that it’s not time for any revolution, not that a bolshevik revolution would work.
the soviet did support the republicans, as far as the republicans were the “original” Spanish government, they imposed a lot of stipulations to their aid tho, stipulations that would allow soviet influence and later annexation of the region as most of its military being soviet supplied and having a large contingent of soviet “volunteers”
Spain had 2 revolutions, the first fascist, the second anarchist, why do you think it had a bourgeois revolution? that requires some next level not knowing anything about Spain beforehand…
I didn’t think of the fascists as revolutionary so I was confused and asked. After you didn’t answer me the first time, I asked again. If that would have made sense to me, I wouldn’t have asked. Thanks anyway for using this opportunity to insult me.
You make claims about what happened during the Spanish Civil War, yet are upset when called out for not knowing who even participated? after having made claims as to the motives of a good deal of the people, somehow involved?
Also, since I didn’t actually insult you, but do want to live up to your expectations: “are you an idiot or do you just repeat everything you heard a tankie say without thinking”?
Mind boggling. Like seriously, I am as left wing as they come and for me that is defined by anti-authoritarian views. Fascists aren’t bad because they are the wrong kind of fascist.
I’ve recently come to the conclusion that they are the leftist version of Nazi Bronies, like, dude, you’re one of the first populations that your preferred rulers are going to purge.
I totally agree with you. That said, tankies will argue some shit why they are further left. You can go into that discussion about the semantics of left and distract from the fact that tankies are evil. Or stop “gatekeeping” leftness and argue why they are bad.
Other than just browsing the modlog (actually do it from .ml since they seem to selectively federate the logs these days) The asklemmy thread about fediverse trolls is pretty much a perfect example of the .ml mods/admins falling over themselves to ban any dissent as “incivility” while letting actual trolls get away with actual incivility.
That’s a straight lie. ML will quickly ban you for pointing out Russian astroturfing and Russian propaganda, but they barely give a shit about anything else.
Obfuscation. They know lemmygrad is too obviously tankie for most people, but lemmy.ml is not so obvious. The .ml is a dogwhistle that a lot of users won’t understand, so they can buy some measure of legitimacy that way. I guess they keep lemmygrad because they also want a place where they can go full mask-off.
If your theory is correct, then why would they also keep many of their users uninformed? Referring to Lemmy.ml, of course. You claim it’s for legitimacy, but doesn’t that cease to fulfill its purpose? Is the goal to make a generalist instance, but with slightly more MLs, but also divert the MLs to Lemmygrad?
I’m not sure your theory is correct, I think Lemmy.ml is just what it says it is: a generalist, FOSS and Privacy focused instance run by the devs, who are MLs.
If your theory is correct, then why would they also keep many of their users uninformed? Referring to Lemmy.ml, of course. You claim it’s for legitimacy, but doesn’t that cease to fulfill its purpose?
Because the users that don’t know what the instance is for are the ones that help lend legitimacy to it, because then people like you can believe that it’s just a general instance with no political undertones. You aren’t running cover for them, you are their cover.
Just think for a second about what you’re suggesting. They want to make an instance that is to lend legitimacy to a fringe political ideology, and they openly tell all of their users that that’s exactly what they’re doing? Then all anyone would need to do to destroy that legitimacy would be to publish whatever message the users receive explaining the true purpose of the instance. The cover only works if it’s deniable, and your idea would make it completely undeniable.
Is the goal to make a generalist instance, but with slightly more MLs, but also divert the MLs to Lemmygrad?
Sorry, I really think this is ridiculous. Is Lemmy.world a cover for Liberalism, because it’s run by liberals? Is db0 a cover for Anarchism and Libertarian Socialism, because db0 is a Libertarian Socialist? This is just red-scare style paranoia.
The very existance of Lemmygrad.ml should prove that there is an explicitly Marxist-Leninist space for MLs, and Lemmy.ml is a generalist instance for people who don’t care enough about that but want a server dedicated to FOSS and Privacy.
Is Lemmy.world a cover for Liberalism, because it’s run by liberals? Is db0 a cover for Anarchism and Libertarian Socialism, because db0 is a Libertarian Socialist?
Liberals and libertarian socialists are usually pretty open about what they believe, so there’s no cover needed. They’re not covert ideologies like tankies have.
However neoliberalism is a fairly hated ideology. If the people who ran lemmy.world were literally the same people running a neoliberalism sub on that instance and they also ran thatcher.love or whatever, and they banned people for saying neoliberalism was trash, then yeah, it would be a reasonable inference that lemmy.world was some sort of entryist ploy.
It is the existence of lemmygrad combined with the behaviour of the people running lemmy.ml that makes the case to defederate. If that happens and you don’t like it, you could always migrate your account, unless you like it there, in which case you’re probably not the normie you first appeared to be.
Lemmy.world regularly bans Marxist-Leninists, it is a two-way street there.
Again, I truly don’t see how Lemmygrad taking the marxist-leninists means Lemmy.ml is a cover for Marxism-Leninism, it’s a non-political community focused on FOSS and Privacy.
Anecdotally I have seen Marxist-Leninists calmly arguing in politics communities banned for being “tankies.” I will admit, I do not have any examples on-hand.
I do. I had a post removed from political memes because apparently people didn’t like the fact that a Nazi was made a chairman in NATO. Adolf Heusinger
That was never brought up in the post or the comments. The post was removed for “misinformation,” when it is completely factual. The commenters first countered that it wasn’t true. He wasn’t actually a Nazi. He wasn’t a chairman. When that failed, they focused on the pedantry of “a” chairman versus “the” chairman. And I guess it was reported and removed.
Just pointing out that the same exclusionary tribalism happens on .world as it happens on .ml and Lemmygrad.
And your vague-posting about it gives a fair and balanced account, I’m sure, but if you want to make your case, link the thread, if you think it will vindicate you.
I did. Any other way to give yourself the vindication that you don’t need? It’s a shame you don’t care about this because otherwise you’d keep replying.
Because it’s your post. It literally says “removed by mod” on that screenshot. Why do you think literally anybody else can see it?
Try logging out or going into private mode and seeing if you can view it.
Also, they didn’t go out of their way to ban you for having these opinions. They literally just removed a post. Boo hoo. The mod logs will be visible, and they should state a reason.
I thought I was the only one that could see it. But, I was so eager for vindication. Oh well. Sorry.
I never said I was banned, just that it was removed. And the mod gave misinformation as the reason, but it is 💯 factual. Thanks for your concern though.
This is bordering on schadenfreude. I’m sorry I can’t live up to your unavailable expectations. It’s unfortunate you have no other recourse but to belie my comments and intentions.
I don’t see the relevance of schadenfreude, but since you can see it, you realise you can just take screenshots, right? Like seriously, I would be fascinated to see them.
EDIT: At this point, you really should just stop replying. Replying with literally nothing is a blatant admission that you have nothing to say, which is to say that you know you were in the wrong and you don’t want to admit it.
Imagine if someone defended nazis with “they were calmly denying the Holocaust”. I’ve seen far too many tankies denying the Uyghur genocide every chance they get. Like you say, it doesn’t matter the tone; genocide denial is itself a line you don’t cross.
I can’t find a reputable international human rights organization that calls it a genocide. Human Rights violations, sure. Crimes against humanity, maybe, but not genocide.
The U.N. rights council on Thursday voted down a Western-led motion to hold a debate about alleged human rights abuses by China against Uyghurs and other Muslims in Xinjiang in a victory for Beijing as it seeks to avoid further scrutiny.
The defeat - 19 against, 17 for, 11 abstentions - is only the second time in the council’s 16-year history that a motion has been rejected and is seen by observers as a setback to both accountability efforts, the West’s moral authority on human rights and the credibility of the United Nations itself. Source
If it’s a genocide, why hasn’t it been taken to the International Court of Justice?
An alternative route is provided by the International Court of Justice, as highlightedby the Uyghur Tribunal, which stated: “It is unfortunate that no efforts have been made by those [countries who declared China to be perpetrating genocide in Xinjiang] or other countries to have the issue dealt with at the ICJ, as might happen if a country had the courage to take the matter there.” Source
A majority of the countries that voted with China on that attempt were/are extremely tied to China and heavily economically reliant on China, and upsetting China enough means a potential economic crisis.
(note that Venezuela actually imported more from China than the US in 2020 according to some sources)
It only makes sense for them to not vote against China, no matter their actual crimes, it would be biting the hand that feeds them. It’s a similar reason as to why almost no country officially recognizes Taiwan as its own country separate from PRC, despite continuing relations with Taiwan and even importing a lot from them.
Of course, EU/NATO/NATO-ish countries don’t exactly care as much because their thoughts on China have long been established, China economically relies on them to a large extent, and they don’t have as much to lose if China hypothetically did get a bit angry at them. The richer ones also have very low risk of actual “consequences” when criticizing the US so they tend to do it quite a lot, but here they seem to be in agreement.
It’s almost like it would be geopolitically in America and Europe’s interest to over exaggerate a humanitarian crisis in China. And for China to minimize the cultural impact it’s policies have on the Uyghurs.
Exactly. When the accused has paid off half the jury, you shouldn’t put much stock in the verdict.
The only thing I care about when determining whether something is a genocide is the facts of the case (which are overwhelmingly in favor of describing the Uyghur genocide as a genocide), not the outcome of a highly political vote by countries all with their own motives and interests.
“it’s a non-political community focused on FOSS and Privacy.” -moderated and controlled at least somewhat by tankies who will delete your comment and possibly ban you for saying things about their flavour of communism that they dont like
That’s a fair point, although I would say socialism is becoming less fringe, and it seems like the various types of libsoc are the main forms of socialism because people have seen the failures of state based solutions, even amongst demsocs/socdems.
That said, I kind of agree and the word “fringe” didn’t sit quite right. On reflection a better word would be “covert”, since ideologies that explicitly want to dominate people tend to hide what they are, since they know it’s not acceptable to state their aims up front. That’s really the idea I was getting at.
Or calling out russian and chinese talking points. And then they have the same 10 users popping up whenever the instances are criticized saying “akshally privacy and no tanks…” (see above)
Eta: its funny how often the threads they brigade start off with the common shill thoughts getting downvoted and actual leftist thought upvoted only for it to shift as the threads pick up steam. Im not convinced its possible to win this fight, if im honest.
Also, note the sheer absurd amount of comments in this thread for something with (atm) 338 points. They always do this and act like its not happening.
I mean. I block all the ones brave enough to actually post something. So up and downvoting is the only noticable way left they impact me. I consider that a win as it allows me to enjoy lemmy a whole lot more
Maybe because no human rights organizations, nor the United Nations have labeled it a genocide. Human rights violations, yes. Crimes against humanity, yes. Genocide, no.
When everyone dislikes your poorly thought out reactions and you respond to that disdain with calls for nuking entire hemispheres of the only planet we can live on, you kinda have to hide your identity/ideologies by way of obfuscation.
They seem proud and vocal in their echo chamber but these fools are weaker than a watery shit irl.
I don’t think that’s a good solution. If I personally block an instance they can still see my comments and posts and have full conversations alongside them that everybody except me can read. I reserve blocking for genuine harrasment, not horrible ideas in general. I’d rather be part of the discussion and use that to build a case for defederation if it’s really so bad I’d want to block them.
That’s fair. I’m a filthy casual and thus blocking instances works fine for me (3 so far). User comments from those instances are shown to me with a spoiler tag and when I click on them I can still see them and even comment on them. But I’m happy that posts from those instances don’t show up in my feed.
It’s not enough that you ignore views you don’t like, you must apparently stop everyone else on the same instance(s) as you from seeing these views. For our protection and safety, I assume?
I just don’t have the time or energy to deal with the toxic behaviour of those people. I don’t run an instance, the one I use doesn’t block others, but I block some instances for my personal account. Nothing wrong with that.
Nothing wrong with blocking instances yourself. My issue is with people who take it upon themselves to mount a campaign to block instances for all other users on an instance.
Or, more simply, if you don’t like the instance then you can block it yourself. That’s what the feature is for. It’s not concern trolling to point out that I don’t want people like you choosing which instances I get to see from which instances I use.
It’s much easier for you to use the block feature as intended instead of you screaming at instance maintainers to censor content for everyone on that instance you don’t like and making people create accounts all over different instances just because you can’t handle a different opinion. Why needlessly fracture the fediverse because of your personal preferences?
“Blocking is a band-aid that doesn’t remove the problem community from interacting with your community at large, which is how you limit the ability of that community to spread their harmful behaviour.”
Also, I don’t choose, the instance admins choose. Nothing I say will change that. If I successfully convince them, then they were convincable. If you don’t like that… change instances.
“Problem community”, huh? Now that’s concern trolling! You’re just concerned about others being exposed to a nebulous “problem community”?
Why do you think you get to decide for others what a “problem community” is? I’ve seen people like you rally together to scream at instance maintainers to block other instances because you don’t like their opinions. Stop being a fediverse karen and use the block function or, if you’re such a control freak, maintain your own instance.
I just got this comment about how some of these folks were vote manipulating: lemmy.cafe/comment/5417577
I have no idea exactly what that means but I am fascinated to learn more. It makes the concern trolling even more of a troll in that case. Like I seriously wonder what’s behind it if this is happening, because these “no defederate PLZZZZ!!1!” folks are so rabid and they keep recycling the same tired, vapid arguments that they don’teven bother to defend. Like are they just trying to sabotage the fediverse by spreading FUD about the main tool we have for preventing it from sliding into pure toxicity?
the paradox of tolerance applies to the intolerant. all leftists are tolerant people and the strawman that we use to describe a tankie is not a leftist.
Agreed, and I think defederation from Lemmy.ml is overdue.
They’re a toxic mouthpiece for authoritarian governments pretending to be communists, especially the CCP but also the Kremlin. They’re the reason I won’t even admit to anyone that I use Lemmy.
I had an old account I abandoned because they followed me around and downvoted everything I posted. Most of it was funny memes I was posting to help Lemmy grow.
They’re the same trashy people as Hexbear but with a nicer mask and surrounded by legitimate users who don’t realize what’s going on.
Also, “Marxism-Leninism” as a term was coined by Stalin, but there’s a reason people avoid the term “Stalinism”, because even these people understand that his horrific legacy can’t be revised.
So whenever you hear the term, you can understand that it’s basically Stalinism papered over with the names of dead men who couldn’t object to him puppeteering them and coopting their legacy to lend legitimacy to his reign of terror.
And not just Marxist Leninism, but revanchist Marxist Leninism which denies the wrongdoing of not only Stalin and Mao but also Putin and Xi entirely and blames anything that happened in history or present on the West.
ie. Tankies.
I wouldn’t really have much problem with them if they were Marxist Leninist and still acknowledged history and reality. Unfortunately that’s not the case.
We acknowledge history and reality. Calling all of us Tankies is such a cop out. Putin bad, Xi is pretty chill comparatively speaking to Putin. Lemmy.ml is a beacon of free speech and ideas compared to Lemmygrad and hexbear, where i have had multiple comments deleted when I wrote well thought put arguments around voting for the lesser of 2 evils to be the best course of action to protect the Prolitariat while forming the Class Conciousness necessary for any sort of true Marxist society to form. Yall calling anyone left of Democratic Socialist is reactionary af.
Beacon of free speech? That’s not only a huge stretch, I’m gonnq say thats bullshit altogether, go look at the modlog and you might change your mind. They delete and ban people for having different opinions, even when they have sources and evidence.
See a lot of us who frequently call out Tankies dont consider YOU a Tankie if what you state your opinions about Putin and Xi are true. A LOT of us are sick of people who supposedly care about oppressed classes sucking off dictators though.
In case you havent been here long enough to know what a Tankie is, on top of what everyone else has shared: A Tankie is a Communist who thinks Russia and China have done nothing wrong, they’ll try and make you think we call ALL communists/left leaning people Tankies, but no, the Tank part of Tankie comes from shit like Tiananmen Square where they used tanks to destroy their political opposition, and Tankies are perfectly fine with this/claim shit like Tiananmen Square is propoganda.
Tldr: Communist/Socialists/leftists who arent a fan of Russia and China’s dictatorial tendencies? Not a Tankie. Communist who’ll defend Russia and China to the point of thinking maybe Ukraine deserves to be invaded and that Taiwan should be absorbed by China? Tankie
Edit: Even more TL:Dr? They’re the leftist version of a Nazi Brony
Edit the third: Tankies, downvotes by you hold as much meaning as a downvote on youtube does… I saw the downvote count go from 1-6 in 15 minutes so you could make it look like as much people disagreed with me as agreed
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