I have stereotypical vegan friends (Somehow squeeze their veganism into conversation every time!) I have slowly tried to adjust my diet for doctor mandated health reasons for the better, never been healthier but I dare not mention it, I don’t want to give them the satisfaction, one of them will try to take credit, I just know it. :P
food is a big part of every culture and it is something everyone has to deal with several times a day. That already brings in a lot of opportunities where someone’s diet is relevant to conversation. And, veganism goes beyond diet. I don’t think they necessarily do it on purpose, you probably don’t notice how often you bring up specifically the opposite of veganism.
As a vegan myself I notice the opposite a lot. Veganism becomes the topic of conversation IRL more because of everyone around me asking questions like “don’t you miss bacon” and “how long have you been vegan now?” And “would you ever eat meat again”.
And when it’s not about veganism specifically they often bring up meat when talking about food they had and then instead of contributing to the conversation, since that feels disingenuous to my ethics and I’m not a fan of lying in general, I’ll tell them “sorry I’m vegan”.
Also a lot of the stereotypical vegans that end up bringing up veganism on their own all the time is mostly just due to them likely being activists and quite honestly having to deal with the worst of the worst trying to ruin their day every day. And that shit takes it’s toll, not to mention directly staring a lot of what makes them physically sick and upset right in front of them day in and day out. Constantly being reminded of what to them is genuinely horrific. That can change a person and make them very jaded and cynical in life. And in that case, tact no longer becomes an issue to them because to them it’s a matter of life and death, and they mostly see death and this becomes desperate to make a change, even if it’s a little one.
Sorry if this made me look like a stereotypical one, I’m not trying to preach. Just trying to share what it can be like on the other side.
Also they totally would take credit. We would call it “planting the seed”. Making you conscious of the choice and hope you come to your own decision on how to and when to make it. ;)
I mean, there exists many options between the extremes of veganism and rampant factory farming. This isn’t a dichotomy; we can have meat consumption without the need for industrialized meat production.
We may have to eat less meat though, I will concede.
What is an extreme is relative. Are we in an extreme because we don't tolerate slavery? Is having only one slave less extreme then? In the current context I guess you can see veganism as one end of the spectrum, but calling it an extreme has the connotation that it is an unreasonable position.
We can have meat consumption without the industrialized part, sure. But ethical veganism claims eating animals is wrong, regardless of how you kill them. Just like we now consider slavery to be wrong, regardless of how good the slave is treated.
If lab-grown meat becomes even half as good (and cheap) as slaughtered meat then I’d make the switch in a heartbeat. Not to mention, imagine being able to try out all sorts of exotic meats guilt-free, or being able to eat raw meat without risk of food-borne illness and parasites? Gimme some of that cruelty-free giant tortoise meat, lemme see what that gluttonous bitch Charles Darwin was on about.
Plant based meats have been way more than half as good for a while (iirc some of them have even won blind tests), I don’t get why people are so obsessed with lab grown versions.
But also, liking how someone tastes isn’t a good justification for killing them, regardless of how good or bad the alternatives are. Fortunately there are tons of delicious vegan foods so it’s a moot point
vegans have noble intentions but they are fighting the wrong battle: the root evil is not meat consumption per se but capitalism and the resource exploitation that it implies
The root evil is your meat consumption. If theres nothing wrong, then go to your local slaughter house and stand in line. If you dont like to do that you know what they feel. The feel the same fucking way about it as you do. And they dont get any sedation as they get during an execution. They get the first row experience to fucked up death.
Fuck your dumb ideas and go eat some fucking beans and shut the fuck up.
Slaves mined the metals used to make the device you typed that on. You cannot get the moral high ground when your (and my) entire privileged world exists due to the exploitation of everyone that doesn’t exist in it.
animal ag is far more inefficient in terms of calories, and if you think vegan food isn’t tasty, expand your diet beyond chicken nuggets (or try vegan nuggets which are also tasty)
You like to pretend that you care about what the animal feels, but you clearly just want to feel good about yourself by feeling superior to others. Why otherwise would you be this rude and obnoxious for no good reason? Do you think this behavior is likely to make people think “hmm, maybe he’s right and I should just eat beans and shut the fuck up”? Of course not, you’re just looking to feel superior. You have no actual interest in convincing others about the feeling of animals facing death.
The OP is not wrong, the capitalist system of exploitation is the root of the issue, and you’re the obvious example of a misguided vegan.
I don’t think they’re misguided, I just think that even if we solved the capitalist exploitation driving the meat industry they would still care about animal suffering on a micro scale. I also feel like you’re making a lot of assumptions about them based on that singular focus. Your view of the issue as a whole is just as myopic as his.
Killing animals to eat them is wrong, plain and simple
See, it’s these kinds of fanatical black-and-white statements that makes it hard to sympathize with vegan ideology, even as I agree with many of its tenets. Feeling sad for animals that die to be consumed is not a strong argument for it being wrong. Humans are animals just as any other, and if it is wrong inherently to kill something to sustain oneself, then we should kill off all carnivorous and insectivorous animals, so that they cannot kill and eat their prey.
Humans are not animals just like any other. We have the capacity for self-reflection and change. We are also not obligate carnivores - we have the choice to eat plant-only diets without health risks unlike a lot of animals
Nor is vegan eating consequence free for life. Factory farming, much like factory meat in some ways, obliterates vast amounts and variety of life that previously resided in that given field. It is also contributing to rapid worldwide top soil decline, something no one seems to give a shit about. Ecological cattle raising could be a mitigation to both issues but some people have too much soy clogging up the brain to do their own thinking.
So cattle eat things that humans cannot and convert them into things we can. They poop and urinate to fertilise the place, graze in places not suitable for crops, churn the soil as they move about and it turns out plants needs to be grazed. All this is easily searchable information. Bear in mind I am not talking about factory cattle, which is a cruel and awful practice that probably should be banned.
This article lays out the argument pretty well for example.
suggesting that animals eating other animals is bad does not imply that killing all carnivores is the correct solution to that problem. there is no solution to that problem which would save the lives of every animal alive today, so any solution to this problem must include the death of some animals. “continue letting animals eat other animals until we can find a real solution that won’t destroy the biosphere or genocide billions of living creatures” is a valid solution even under the strict idea that killing animals to eat them is always wrong
I do think we are not aligning in communication, and I think you’re misreading my tone. I did read your comment with the intention that you clarified here, and I saw that you were not vegan, but it’s hard to deny that Killing animals to eat them is wrong, plain and simple is a very hard-line stance that would typically be touted by vegan activists. I was more replying to that point itself than you as an individual in making that statement.
I disagree with the point that one cannot ethically kill an animal, and I also agree wholeheartedly that our consumption habits around meat are abysmal for the environment. I am in hardcore corn and dairy country, so I am well-aware of the consequences of our mass production of meat and grain. The Midwestern ecosystem is practically gone. Illinois at one point boasted over 20,000,000 acres of prairie, and today that total is less than 10,000.
Regarding the quotation, I was not saying that you felt that way. My reply is to the ardent severity of the claim that all killing of animals is wrong, and trying to arrive at a conclusion to that worldview that I think is in line with that thinking. I’m sorry if you thought I was trying to put that opinion on you, that was just me wording myself poorly.
Of course the root of evil is capitalism, but you have to understand that we would need to greatly reduce meat consuption to have the “ethical” way of breeding that most people expect. The reason why the animal exploitation is so bad is that it has to satisfy a demand that keeps growing. People expect to continue their eating habits and that companies should just be held accountable, change their ways and still produce the same quantities of meat/diaries/eggs.
I find it always irritating how people constantly say “vegans are annoying”. Being Vegan would be waaaay easier if meat eaters wouldn’t be so damn annoying about their meat consumption. Just say the word “vegan” and some will lose their shit.
I’ve never met a vegan in real life who is annoying (about veganism. Maybe about other things…) Most of them it even takes a while to find out they’re vegan. Several bosses I only found out because a team lunch. Several others I only found out because I befriended them at work and after months of talking to them it finally came up one way or another. Never even be criticized by them, and likewise, I’ve never criticized them (in general I have very few issues with veganism. Maybe I disagree with them on honey bees, and not even sure that’s all vegans. Oh, and perhaps the belief that one cannot love any animal if they eat meat, but its not a topic i wish to agrue so I dont bother engaging anyway.)
Online you may have someone being more abolitionist or mutant about veganism, but even them it’s hardly an issue unless you go into vegan spaces or are commenting about certain things like that dolphin shooting, and even then it’s not really mostly on the level of whataboutism and being really extreme and preachy.
I’ve seen a lot more hate coming from non vegans, both unprompted (like this post) and in reaction to casual posts about a recipe or something on social media.
How nice for you. I lived in Montreal. the amount of vegans that won’t yell at you with a bunch of assumptions about your lifestyle and you haven’t even ordered any food yet is minimal.
On the other hand I’ve ran into far too many ‘red meat eaters with trucks’ in English speaking culture who will never hesitate to impromptu continue a dont-tread-on-me argument with randos as if we are aware what they are going the fuck on about which just makes them seem some of the most irrational, fragile, whiney, pissants I’ve ever met in my life.
Self absorbed fuckheads will come from anywhere. It’s hard to pick who to hate just based on argument. I don’t even care for their argument. I just hate them as a person.
20 years ago, when veganism was getting traction in modern culture and it was all they could do to spread the idea that we might be able to not consume meat.
“Buying meat is unethical because of how the animals are treated” ~ sent from my iPhone made by child slave labor
I’m not saying veganism is bad. What I am saying is that people who think veganism is a moral high ground are wrong. I also think that veganism is a luxury to be even able to follow.
Edit after downvotes into the negative and shitty asshole responses:
Here comes the self-righteous assholes who don’t want to have a discussion and instead throw around blame and shame at me. Congrats. Y’all are the reason people hate vegans which hurts your cause by pushing people away from reducing reliance on meat. Every downvote is proof that self-righteous vegans are assholes.
It’s pretty ethical to grow and hunt your own food. Hunting even benefits the eco-system and animals haunted since the natural predators that used to keep deer, turkey, elk, and other game animals population in check are no longer prevalent.
Lots of people don’t agree, but we have data to support the benefits, and the legislation to ensure it is enforced. Yes, in an ideal world we’d all be vegans, and nature would balance itself. Maybe some day that will be the world we have, but it is not the world we have now.
Also if we’re to speak of cruelty and environment shit why don’t vegans speak of the animals farmers need to kill in order to protect crops? Or the fuel spent by importing vegetables and fruits?
Now I’m not saying that meat is better since tastes are subjective and animals do get treated badly and raised in bad conditions but some of them live in titanium bubbles
Lol. The vast majority of vegans don’t do anything like that, including the guy in the video linked, but the ones who do are the only ones you hear about.
If certain activists discredit veganism in your mind, would you say that climate activists who do similar things also discredit environmentalism as a whole?
Yeah? If someone suddenly showed up and they took your phone smashed it saying that Chinese kids made it and we need to protect them and so on, would it help their case or make you wanna hear none of their shit and create a need for a new phone? If part of your community acts like that it’ll drag the whole community down and put a bad light over you
Sorry, how is it a luxury? Vegetables, grains, and legumes are far cheaper and healthier sources of calories and nutrition than meat, despite the government subsidies. This perception that you should eat McDonalds and rotisserie chicken every day if you don’t have money to buy groceries is so strange to me.
Yea meat is being heavily subsidised to bring the cost down, but in reality you pay with your tax money. Also plant based stuff is differently taxed (at least here in germany). Cow milk has a 7% tax and soy milk 19%. There is so much groing wrong because of lobbying by the meat companies.
Meat is just an extra costly step to produce the food we consume. Instead you could just skip that part and it would be less expensive.
Meat industry is also a big player in climate change. Another issue if you need more :) I don’t really know what your priorities are but maybe this is important to you.
Well meat consumption is linked to many health issue, include the higher risk of cancer. But of course it also depends on the dosis but really not many people think about how much meat they consume.
The amount of mental gymnastics you have to go through here is insane. I feel sorry for your two overworked brain cells being forced to type all these comments lmao
What a truly sad and pathetic existence you must have to find joy in trying to insult people on the internet. I hope you find the help you clearly desperately need.
“I’m still right about you” lmao okay buddy. You’re literally a person who finds joy from trying to be needlessly mean on the internet. Life doesn’t get more pathetic than that.
You could have just googled the doctor’s name and found the study yourself. Somehow I doubt ‘your own analysis’ is as unbiased as you think. www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.1523119113
You can be opposed to unethical treatment of animals and child slave labor. If someone tells me they are against slave labor, my response isn’t ““buying products made by slaves is unethical” ~said by someone who eats factory farmed meat”. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
I don’t think people go vegan because they want a moral high ground, at least I know I didn’t. People do it because they genuinely believe it’s the right choice to make. And yes, having that choice is a luxury not afforded to everyone, but vegans are no more entitled than the people around them who also have the luxury of being able to choose not to support animal agriculture, but do so anyway.
You say people don’t want to have a discussion while at the same time calling people who might actually engage in a discussion “self-righteous assholes”. This leads me to believe you may not actually be looking for a good faith conversation.
At a high level, I have no control over your actions, you have no control over mine. We can argue until we’re blue in the face, but when someone walks away after that argument, they’re free to do as they please.
Physically, you don’t need to eat meat. I’d recommend a good dietician if you want to go vegetarian or vegan, at least until you figure enough out that you can maintain the intake of all your required vitamins and nutrients as you transition. There are more than a few of them that are typically provided by meat products for most people’s eating habits, you’ll want advice on how to suppliment that without relying on pills. Suppliment pills can be helpful, but you probably don’t want to have to take them all the time.
Eating meat can certainly be healthy too, speaking mainly for ones nutritional needs. The nutrients in meat are, in some cases, fairly rare in plants, so it can vastly simplify the job of meeting your nutritional needs.
For vegans, on a social and societal level, I agree with the concepts surrounding factory farming and the unethical treatment of the animals that become meat. No argument from me. However, thinking that any meat consumption is tantamount to murder, is not a view I share. Animals, and their meat, are eaten by other animals (including humans - separate from farming… I’m talking about actual hunting here). In nature, there’s no hesitation about this, no remorse, and no known sorrow from the animals who “lost someone” to being food. Sadness over the passing of an individual is almost (but not entirely) a human phenomenon. Same with morals and ethics… To name a few. Ethically, I don’t personally have a problem with animals dying for food. I do however have a problem with the abuse and maltreatment of animals that will become food. While alive, animals should be given some measure of dignity and respect. They should not be forced into living their lives in small cages and jammed together with hundreds of their kin in a confined space the way factory farming often does.
Eating meat does not and should not imply that a person is complicit nor agrees with the concept of factory farms or anything they do. Some people do not have the time, effort, money or focus to dedicate to finding alternatives. You don’t know their life and you should not judge based on their eating habits alone. It’s presumptive and arrogant to think that people have the bandwidth to even grok the concept of changing their entire lifestyle because of factory farms. In the same manner, vegans and vegetarians should not be negatively judged for their decisions either.
The only points of contention I have in the whole debate is that eating meat, in and of itself, whether you bought it off a shelf or obtained it through hunting, does not make one a murderer; and, while it’s fine to share ideas, demanding that others change their ways because you have an opinion, is unacceptable. If someone is curious and willing to listen, sure, chat all you want. However, telling them that their choices are wrong and that they must do something differently, isn’t a practice I can support.
At the end of the day, as most people learned from the lion king, there’s a circle of life. Things will die so other things can live. Plants will absorb the minerals and nutrients from the rotting corpses of so-called “higher” life forms, and those “higher” life forms will eat the plants to live. Those plant eaters will be eaten by other animals, who will eventually die and become fertilizer for the plants. The cycle continues. Eating animals is something that animals do all the time, and it’s not condemned. News flash, humans are also animals. We have the ability to eat and gain strength from meat. You have the free choice to either partake in that activity or not, but make no mistake, that’s your personal choice.
IMO, we should all eat more vegetables. Meats have become so prevalent that there’s basically meat included in every meal of the day. That’s a bit much. Eat a salad. Everyone should reduce their meat intake, at the very least. If you want to go all the way to being vegetarian or vegan, go for it. It’s your choice, your life, your body, and you’re free to use it, and/or abuse it, in whatever way you wish.
For me, the ethical problems of factory farms are definitely an issue. Personally, I’d rather see a regulatory solution for the treatment of animals, since it would improve the life of all of those animals (at least for the duration they’re alive), and improve their situation when they are slaughtered, so it is more humane. After they have been slaughtered, my level of care about how they’re treated, pretty much disappears. As long as the resultant product is safe and not harmful, I couldn’t care less. I’m only concerned with their life from birth to death. After that, meh. Regulatory changes would be simple and more effective than trying to change the hearts and minds of everyone in an effort to have the pubic at large, stop eating meat; bluntly, trying to convince an entire society to do anything for it’s own good, is pretty much impossible. I’m not sure what the “annoying vegans” (not all vegans, just the ones who get in people’s faces about it), are trying to prove. They won’t convince everyone, it’s basically impossible. It’s like they’ve taken on this impossible task and it’s not going well, and they’re steaming mad about it… Bro, you did this to yourself. I believe the only way to put an end to the animal abuse in factory farms, is to regulate it. I don’t know what that regulation looks like, I’m not a lawyer, nor do I have any ties to nor interest in becoming a politician/government decision making person. I know change is needed and I have no ability to enact that change, but I would vote for anyone who did.
I don’t consider death, in and if itself to be inhumane. I consider torture to be inhumane. I consider forced imprisonment in a small space to be inhumane. I even consider suffering to death, it be inhumane. Euthanizing something, can absolutely be humane. I don’t believe that factory farms are being humane by my standards.
I don’t think that asking them to be humane to their flock is too much to ask. Our food deserves it. They’re giving their life for your ongoing existence and enjoyment, the least we can and should do, is ensure they’re not spending that life in pain.
Hey, edgelord case against veganism: meat is absolutely murder, but we treat workers poorly enough that literally everything you ever buy is probably murder, including corn. We are drowning in a river of innocent blood, and there are no clean hands. Trying to clean them before we get to shore is absurd.
And it’s corollary: meat is extra murder, because those animals don’t kill and butcher themselves.
Decent arguments. Little bit of what about-isms there. We could get into a whole, long, discussion about how people aren’t treated much better in society, though we have the “freedom” to “choose” between equally terrible options to work for less than we need to survive, to “decide” what essential items we can afford and which we must do without, and to “earn” a living because we are not deserving of a life unless we work to get one.
But IMO, that would be more what about-isms.
This is also very contingent on the definition of what constitutes “murder”. Where the generally accepted definition, according to the Oxford dictionary, is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. Since the animals which are food are not humans, no murder has occurred. This is in line with the legal terms as well, as far as I understand, but legal terms will vary from location to location. I won’t dwell on it too much. The fact is that many people, apparently including yourself, seem to conflate “the intentional act of killing something” with the term “murder”, whether it applies or not, but the dictionary definition of the term is why I started this reply the way I did, indirectly, capitalism, and specifically the corporations that facilitate capitalism, are indirectly responsible for the suffering and death of more than a few humans. I would argue that they’re responsible for a lot of it. Firing people who are otherwise doing acceptable work for reasons unrelated to their position or the work that needs to be done, such as for interpersonal issues or simply to “trim the fat” by reducing labor costs (firing long-term, highly paid workers to replace them with low paid, new workers) is one such example. A nontrivial number of those fired for reasons such as this may fall into depression and commit suicide, and the corporation is directly responsible for the circumstances leading to their death and therefore has committed murder; alternatively, they may terminate someone who has fallen ill, since they cannot do the job sufficiently anymore (does not meet expectations, kind of thing), and due to the illness, and now being unable to financially pay for the help they desperately need, they die. The corporation is again responsible for that death and therefore has committed murder.
I’m not sure that line of reasoning would stand up in court, and bluntly, IANAL, so I don’t care to find out. Obviously there’s more circumstances, I only described two. I’ll let you imagine the rest.
The question of “is killing an animal for food, considered murder” is far more philosophical in nature. It’s certainly a valid consideration, but legally, animals are not humans. Humans are also animals, but not all animals are humans, and certainly, the animals we eat (mainly chickens, cows, pigs, and lambs), are definitely and distinctly, not humans. Therefore the definition of murder, in the context that it is understood under the law, does not apply. Certainly we are, in some manner, whether directly or indirectly, responsible for the death of those animals, but murderers, we are not (unless you’ve actually committed the act of murder).
QED: eating meat is not, and should not be considered to be, in any way, shape, or form, committing, or otherwise endorsing, abeding, or having any role in anything that is, by definition, murder.
The phrasing of that kinda got away from me.
Moving on.
Certainly farmland accidents happen, and in those cases, the people who die, could be considered murdered, by the people who eat the product which they were farming at the time. Certainly that has happened, and will happen. Albeit indirectly, the people who demand the food that the person was farming at the time, could be considered ambiguously an accessory to the murder, at least. I don’t think the court would agree with that line of logic at all, but, it is nevertheless, something that can be considered to be the case in a philosophical way. In those cases, where does the responsibility for that pertains death lay? With the company that employed them to death? With the consumers that demanded the product? Or is it nobody’s fault and simply an accident. The courts, I believe, would either side with blaming the company, or ruling that it was an accident, never the customers fault. Philosophically, everyone is at fault.
As you can see, regardless of whether the product being farmed is grain, corn, or livestock like cattle or chickens (etc), those deaths are technically on all of our hands. Meat cannot be extra murder, unless the meat is human, in which case there’s probably a lot of other crimes happening. It can’t be extra murder because no humans have died in the creation of the meat; at least, no more than with any other product of farming.
Certainly, we, the consumers, are responsible for the deaths/killing, of animals for food (at least those of us who are not vegans), but we can certainly be held to account for the suffering of the animals we consume, when they were raised for the purposes of becoming food.
It’s a small but important distinction. One only humans could make. What does that mean for ethics? That’s going to be a very personal issue. Everyone’s ethics vary slightly. If you consider that the product that is “meat” is akin to “murder” because you believe that murder isn’t just a human on human killing, then it would be highly unethical to partake in such products. That is a personal moral and ethical choice, both to believe that, and resign yourself to never consuming the meat of an animal.
For me, whenever these things come into question, I always consider two things: the legal definitions and guidelines of it, and I attribute the philosophy of “do unto others” (I think everyone knows this one).
In the former, murder is bad, but murder is human vs human, so, no help on this from there. It’s completely legal. In the latter case, I wouldn’t want to be tortured while alive only to be killed for my meat. However, personally, I could not give any fewer fucks about what happens to my body after I’m dead. Eat me, for all I care. So, in that context, the suffering of the animals matters to me. However, eating meat after the fact is irrelevant. Therefore, I give all the shits I can give about the quality of life those animals have, but I could not care less whether they are eaten by humans, other animals, or if they simply decompose, afterwards.
This leads me back to my original reply. I want to see better conditions for these living animals. I feel we should accomplish that through legislation and regulation.
‘Other things are bad too’ is not an argument I personally find convincing. Though I absolutely agree with you that we are all partaking in a horrible system where our standard of living is built on mountains of suffering.
I highly recommend you check out a book called “A Bold Return to Giving a Damn”. It’s about a cattle rancher who turned his ranch into a form of regenerate agriculture. One of his main point is that the current meat industry provides cheap meat that is subsidized by the environment. His ranch is called White Oak Pastures. Fascinating book and definitely changed the way I look at meat consumption. I still eat meat but my extended family raises a cow every year so I think its a little but better than the industrial food system currently at work.
Eh. I lived in a place that has a lot of vegans and know a lot of them. In reality I think only a small percentage of vegans do this. But the ones who do are the most vocal, and the most likely to have negative interactions with non-vegans.
People eating less cows would drastically reduce the cow population. I’m sure they would be culled, with entire plants electing to kill the cows rather than sustain them unprofitably.
Okay, I’ll be serious for a moment because logical consistency is important to me.
I am responding to the image above. The image above is making the suggestion that higher rates of veganism means that cows will get to live. I am not arguing here in any capacity that we should only care about cows, I am making the statement that the premise suggested in the image, that there are cows that would be alive if there were more vegans is flawed at best.
If the image showed a fox, you’d be saying they think you eat foxes. It’s not a good faith interpretation of the argument being presented - you might as well infer that they’re only talking about men in suits, too.
This is very true. Look at pigeons, for example. Used to value pigeons as a tool for communication and they even saved lives, but when technology advanced with things like the telegram, we abandoned pigeons. Cows have been domesticated for tens of thousands of years, meaning they are dependent on us for survival, and even if we don’t use then for food, we will still have to take care of them as cows have many things wrong with they’re biology such as the fact that they will die if not milked, and no, the calf can’t keep up with that as the modern cow produces far more milk than they did in the wild so long ago. In essence, cows would either become white elephants or go extinct if we didn’t care for them.
“They have to suffer or else they would be extinct” is a very easy argument to make about other beings when you’re not the one doing the suffering. Personally, I would rather not exist than have a few short years of abysmal suffering and no chance to have a meaningful life.
Most farm animals have been selectively bred for traits that fit human needs, at the expense of the animal’s own quality of life. For example, chickens being bred to produce so many eggs that they become calcium deficient and their bones break under the weight of their own bodies. Sanctuaries provide safe spaces for these animals to live out the rest of their lives in the most comfort possible, while going vegan is important for a future where we’re no longer breeding these poor beings into an inherently hellish existence.
Wild animal suffering is a hot debate in the vegan communities these days. There is no cut and dry answer for that. However, whatever we do or don’t do to alleviate or eliminate wild animal suffering says nothing about whether we also create and maintain our own system of animal suffering. We can end the human exploitation of animals, and doing so can teach us a lot about ending our exploitation of each other as well.
I’m not really concerned with whether animals are being exploited by humans anymore than I am the same of plants or fungi. I do think animals shouldn’t suffer because I consider pain to be of negative utility even when experienced by non-persons. With that said, I don’t think the goal of reducing or eliminating animal suffering is better-served by the total elimination of livestock than by ensuring humane farming practice. On the off-chance it wasn’t obvious, I don’t think the utility calculation is clear-cut because of the aforementioned problem of wild animals suffering.
Maybe you should look into why it’s bad to be ableist, asshole. I’m autistic, not psychopathic; I use logic when approaching abstract ethical problems. Fuck you.
Would you rather live a normal life and at some point be mauled to death, or live your entire life in a prison and at some point be killed more painlessly?
Yes, animals suffer and die in the wild. They also suffer and die in captivity, just in different measures, but I would argue they suffer more as farm animals.
If by “normal life” you mean a life riddled with far more anxiety and danger than I currently have, then I guess it would depend on the prison, but I’m leaning towards prison. This is particularly true if I were to lack boredom and the overbearing curiosity that humans have. Turns out, most animals (especially herbivores) don’t get bored and don’t experience curiosity in the same way humans do. It’s almost like we’re different species with different brains.
Also, most animals aren’t people, and my answer doesn’t actually change the utility values.
I’m in the same boat with a lot of commenters here, of trying to reduce my consumption for ethical reasons. Throughout my life I’ve tried being vegan and I’ve tried being vegetarian and always failed and now am just minimizing and it’s working very well for me.
Nonetheless, that picture gave me a chuckle. Life’s a ride, might as well have as good a time as possible and that usually coincides with being uptight as little as possible.
I’ve posted more in depth responses to ‘reducitarianism’ elsewhere. In one comment I made an analogy to quitting smoking, and how ‘reducing’ my cigarette count only led to a rebound where I smoked even more than before.
It’s well known in the scientific literature that people are so inaccurate at self-reporting what, and how much of what, they eat, that questionnaire-based studies are specifically designed to compensate for these inaccuracies. So anecdotal claims of people reducing their animal consumption mean very little, particularly when data seems to indicate the opposite.
And like Ed Winter’s post gets into, you need to put the concept of reduction within the concept of justice. Fewer animals being bred and slaughtered sounds nice, but what about for the animals still being abused and murdered? Do you find it acceptable when corporations promise only to reduce carbon emissions by about 10% by 2035? Or how would you feel if police unions claimed they would disproportionately arrest black people 20% less than they used to?
Sorry but ‘reduction’ is nothing but a self-soothe to make people feel like they’re doing something good, when in reality they are just continuing their injustice while assuaging their own guilt. Just another form of cognitive dissonance.
I agree. Militant meat eaters are just as annoying as cliché vegans but there seem to be more of the former.
Reducing meat consumption is probably the best way to go for most people (I’ve reduced mine because of my vegetarian wife and don’t feel like I miss anything) but eating strictly vegan doesn’t seem right to me. Anything that requires supplementation in the long run cannot be the final answer.
They do in my experience. I’ve never once criticized someone else for eating meat, but I get made fun of a lot for looking for vegetarian/vegan options.
If you just order food without going all “am actually vegan” just to let everyone know and people still make fun of you… then those people are assholes. No one should be judged on their own choices.
Unfortunately, it’s super common. When it comes to my family, they stopped rubbing my face in it once I stood up for myself, which is nice. I had to publicly call out my brother for behaving towards me the way he imagines vegans do before he fully stopped. I have friends who I enjoy the company of, I play board games and tabletop RPGs with them. If I’m round at their place and they’re cooking, sometimes they go into a tirade about how being a vegan is terrible and I have to politely ask them to stop because I’m there to enjoy their company, not defend my eating practices.
It’s thankfully gotten less common, but I honestly think that the whole “angry vegan” stereotype caused them to get on the offensive immediately, expecting a big verbal showdown. I think it’s also this perception of “you think you’re better than me, huh?”.
Now that people know what to expect, sometimes they have questions about why not dairy, or why not eggs. I’m happy to answer those questions, but I’ve never gone into the topic of my own accord.
They are just assholes. It’s not that difficult to make vegan food, they just don’t want to go out of their way to make some for you. I have bunch of vegan and vegetarian friends. Vegans are definitely harder to make food for, but if we are making some food, they better help out if with nothing else with advice or recipes. But I’ve never found it difficult to prepare extra meal or two. It’s just them being lazy.
they just don’t want to go out of their way to make some for you
But that’s the thing, they do. They just also supplement that with a healthy dose of their opinion. These people aren’t assholes (specifically my friends, there are of course assholes in every group), they just naturally get very defensive because I’m a walking contradiction to a few of their deeply held beliefs.
Well, black sheep always get that treatment and not only because of food. Doing anything different than what crowd expects will give you weird gazes. Though, I don’t understand the part where you need to get the lecture every time if they don’t mind making food for you. Either do it or don’t.
They absolutely do. Endless repetitions of the same tired jokes, unprompted self justifications, odd assumptions. Happens all the time. They take offense at the sheer mention you are a vegetarian or vegan, you dont even have to try to convert them. Just be there, rejecting meat on your plate during dinner.
If you are not preaching and you get those reactions, like I said elsewhere those people are then assholes. It goes both directions of course. You have the right to make your own choices, but telling others what they should do while acting smug then it’s a different matter.
Yeah I am the only vegan I know and I don’t get shit about it from anyone. In fact, my friends and family are very supportive. If people are going after someone for being vegetarian/vegan, they are exceptionally rude and by no means represent meat-eaters in general.
I am sympathetic to the commentors who are being given a hard time for their diet but that is not a universal experience and pretending otherwise is not going to help anyone.
I try to be very tolerant of the unprompted self-justifications and maybe just ask a couple questions about it. At some level they feel a change is warranted, and humans change their minds messily over years, not instantly during arguments.
Yeah, I mean they are not fooling anyone, if they bring the topic up on their own trying to tell me why they eat meat it is quite obvious they have a guilty conscience and are trying to justify it to themselves more than me.
Your approach is a lot more conciliatory though, I am usually so annoyed that I just question why they are so defensive they are telling me those things unprompted.
Anything that requires supplementation in the long run cannot be the final answer.
Not trying to start an argument with you, you do you, but are you aware that most factory farmed animals are supplemented with B12? Meat and dairy consumers are taking supplements, just indirectly.
Also, anybody living in cloudy areas (North Europe, North US, Canada, etc) should be taking vitamin D supplements anyway, meat eater or vegan.
Not sure what’s worse though: cheap meat or ultra-processed vegan meat alternatives
There was a big news story in the UK last year about “the end of veganism”, which was pretty funny. Basically they were watching the cheap vegan processed shit drop heavily in sales. As people get more comfortable with the diet, they tend to get more whole foods and cook tofu/seitan/peas/etc for their protein, which led to a drop in sales of trash.
Militant meat eaters are just as annoying as cliché vegans but there seem to be more of the former.
I eat meat from time to time, so definitely not even vegetarian, but I’ve absolutely run into more offended meat eaters than vegans IRL, but meat at dinner is a big part of my home country’s culture.
I remember my sisters’ boyfriend fuming, thinking we were trolling him by not having meat at a family dinner. The meat eating mind cannot comprehend.
Literally the only strictly necessary supplement for vegans is b12, and if you understand the science of b12, then you know that you either should be supplementing it anyway, or you’re just rolling the dice.
By contrast there are entire whole-food plant-based communities who routinely report the near-miraculous benefits they gain after adopting the diet, such as cholesterol levels that aren’t deadly.
there are entire whole-food plant-based communities who routinely report the near-miraculous benefits they gain after adopting the diet, such as cholesterol levels that aren’t deadly.
That is a far more complex topic than just meat consumption though. People don’t just go vegan but completely change their diet and actually look at what they consume.
I’ve never had high cholesterol even back when I ate meat daily. Always ate lots of salads and veggies though and didn’t snack sugary shit all day.
My MIL went full plant based (vegan but also only raw or minimally processed foods, doesn’t even eat tofu or olive oil if she can avoid it) after watching some documentary on Netflix and it is her entire personality now, including trying to force it on my wife I who already eat vegetarian 95% of the time (everything at home is vegetarian, occasionally eat meat out if none of the vegetarian options sound good) primarily for environmental and health reasons. Every time we visit her she makes some snide and not even veiled remarks about us still occasionally eating meat and still eating dairy, her favorite is referring to any sort of cheese as “congealed cow puss”.
She also 100% believes it can cure diabetes, Alzheimers, dementia, and cancer in a matter of months and that meat and dairy cause autism.
I’m working my way towards it! Did a one month trial run, now I am back to my previous diet but increasing my vegan meals and decreasing my meals with animal products.
Same. I use the Forks over Knives app to find new recipes. But, with picky eating kids, it’s difficult to maintain a diet. Lots of black bean burgers. 🍔
Not who you replied to originally, but since you said you welcome tips:
Learn to cook tofu. There’s different levels of firmness, and an infinite number of ways to prepare and cook it. Try them all. Not everyone’s texture preference is the same. So the way I cook it and the way you cook it can vary drastically.
I hated tofu for ages until I found a way to cook it that yielded the outcome I liked.
Once you figure out the best way to achieve the texture you’re after, you can start worrying about seasoning it. Then you’re golden.
A fair amount of vegans might say that their experiences made them change overnight. I was not one of those people, as addiction is significant in me. When I was transitioning, I would go all in and keep abstaining from animal products as long as I could. Then I would mess up, and fall back into bad habits for a while. But the key thing that made the difference is that I never gave up. I’d track how many days I went without animal products and count that as my high score. Then when I tried again I would gamify it by being determined to get an even higher score.
As time went on I became more skilled at cooking plant-based, which helped keep me going since the food I was eating was beginning to taste better. Likewise my palette was growing more accustomed to plant-based foods. Eventually I messed up one last time by eating some pepperoni, but the experience was different. Because I had gotten so used to eating more wholesome meals, the pepperoni was such an intense salt bomb that I found it inedible (and that’s coming from a salt-fiend).
But the other thing that changed was in my mind. Consciously I was already well aware that vegan diets are entirely adequate nutritionally. But a lifetime of unconscious carnist societal conditioning gave me this constant feeling as if I could not survive on plants alone. That was one of the things that always got in the way - this strange feeling like I was missing something and had to eat the stuff that was missing or I would die.
But when I bit into that pepperoni I suddenly had this calm recognition: “I don’t need this. In fact this isn’t food.”
And things have only gotten easier over time. Hopefully this helps?
It does! The bits on reframing how you view food resonates. Burgers are still delicious to me, but I now feel more guilt and reach for plant-based equivalents more frequently. I no longer feel the necessity of meat, if that makes sense, so it is getting easier over time.
Burgers are something I missed a lot too! Fortunately plant-based options are becoming more common in fast food places and grocery stores. It usually does come at an upcharge though, so I don’t get them too much. Other people have mixed opinions on meat substitutes, but they have been great for me.
There is a universal type of “recipe” that covers a ton of basic dishes around the world:
Fry hard veggies in oil until soft - can be onions, leeks, carrots, celery, potatoes etc.
Add spices, soft veggies, and/or pastes and stir to form a sauce - tomatoes, peppers, garlic, ginger, etc.
Stir in your beans/chickpeas/lentils/peas. Most beans should be cooked, lentils and peas usually can be dry/raw.
Add water, bring to a boil, and simmer. Amount and time depends on if you want a soup, stew, or just some sauce.
Add leafy greens and anything that should be dissolved - spinach, kale, lemon, vinegar, sugar, cilantro etc.
This can make lentil soup, Mediterranean or South American style bean dishes, chana masala, coconut curry, and lots of other stuff. Most can be made with a single pot.
Well milk is easy. Just get soy milk or almond milk as a drop-in replacement. There’s even weird ones like cashew milk. Depending on where you are at though that might be too expensive compared to dairy milk.
They don’t sell milk or soy milk in gallons. The soy milk I got was 936 mL. 936 mL is 0.2472 gallons, which just so happens to be close to a quarter gallon. A quarter gallon is closer to 946 mL.
When I wrote the previous comment, I actually thought that 936 mL was exactly 1/4 gallons, and it kind of surprised me. The tool I used to convert units rounded the result to 2 decimal places.
I tried to look it up, but I couldn’t find any convincing answers. I did find one answer saying it has to do with the milk’s density, but the density is about 1.03 (both dairy and soy milk) and when you run the numbers you get that 936 mL is only 0.964 kg.
There is also no pre-metric units for volume, so that isn’t it either. Also, some other milk brands sell their milk in 930 mL, 1857 mL, 1858 mL or some other really arbitrary number.
My guess is that it’s close enough to a full liter so that the customers buy this thinking they got a liter of milk.
Over here all vegan cheese is violife or similar. It is not bad but lacks the cheesiness and the flavor is frankly a little weird - I suspect the coconut oil to be behind it but can’t verify as all I have available is cockonut oil based :(
Honestly, I’ve stopped chasing substitutes a while ago. Giving up meat and dairy is going to be a lifestyle change, that’s why people struggle so much with it. You can’t expect to just sub in imitations and keep eating the same foods. They’re not close enough to fool anyone, and they’re usually expensive and unhealthy.
The best way eat vegan is to fill your diet with minimally processed legumes, grains, fruits, and vegetables. Learn to cook a few staple meals from cultural cuisines where animal products are expensive (most cultures outside US/Canada and Western Europe) and you’ll realize how much great food you can make with a few simple ingredients and one or two pots. A huge number of them fall into the same basic formula, so if you learn one, you can easily make them all. Plus, it’s much, much cheaper than eating meat.
I’m not vegan but I do eat 95% vegan because my wife is and I agreed to buy and cook solely vegan in the house. I come from a culture with plenty of (accidentally) vegan home cooking already, so it wasn’t hard at all. But those substitutes are gross to me. Apologies to those who like them.
Could you share some suggestions for the 1-2 pot recipes with a variation or two to demonstrate? I’ve started stocking up on oatmeal and frozen fruit, then frozen veggies that I season in the air fryer. Outside of that things like hummus, green bean casserole and chili are my go-tos. I’m not exactly a great cook but I’m trying to experiment more slowly replacing other simple shit like pizza rolls, bacon and eggs, etc. Especially if I can do large quantities to freeze and save leftovers
Fry hard veggies in oil until soft - can be onions, leeks, carrots, celery, potatoes etc.
Add spices, soft veggies, and/or pastes and stir to form a sauce - tomatoes, peppers, garlic, ginger, etc.
Stir in your beans/chickpeas/lentils/peas. Most beans should be cooked, lentils and peas usually can be dry/raw.
Add water, bring to a boil, and simmer. Amount and time depends on if you want a soup, stew, or just some sauce.
Add leafy greens and anything that should be dissolved - spinach, kale, lemon, vinegar, sugar, cilantro etc.
So here is a really simple one I make at least once a week, as you can eat it hot or cold, with or without rice. It makes a great packed lunch. You can make the beans or chickpeas ahead of time or use a 30 oz can, but cooking them is much cheaper. Either way, make sure you rinse them off. I put in 1 cup dry beans/chickpeas (makes 3 cups cooked) in my Instant Pot with 4 cups water for 25 minutes for beans, 35 for chickpeas, instant release. Then I use the pot to cook the meal.
Also, you can chop and freeze most hard veggies (carrots, leeks, onions, celery, ginger, garlic). They aren’t as good as fresh, but it’s a lot more convenient if you have to cook after work.
This recipe is really flexible so I’ll just tell you what I do, but the ratios are all preference:
1 large onion, finely chopped
Equivalent amount of carrot, quarter slices
3 cups cooked pinto beans or chickpeas
1-2 cloves garlic, chopped or crushed
3 tablespoons tomato or red pepper paste (I use half of each but red pepper paste can be hard to find in US grocery stores)
Juice of 1 lemon or white vinegar
1.5 tablespoon sugar
Extra virgin olive oil
Salt and pepper
Optionally, bay leaves, paprika, and parsley
Step 1: frying hard veggies. Heat up a medium or large pot (stainless is best but any material will do) and add enough olive oil to fully cover the bottom and a bit more. It might be more oil than you think you’ll need. Fry your onions until soft.
Side note about onions: you can cook them quickly in 5-10 minutes at medium-high heat. They are ready when soft and translucent. But if you have the time and want a complex flavor in your dish, you can cook them for up to 20-30 minutes at low heat. Always salt them to help draw out the water.
Either way, add the carrots when the onions are almost done (2-3 minutes left).
Step 2: make the sauce. Add your garlic and let it cook a bit until fragrant. Add black pepper and optionally a couple of bay leaves and paprika. Stir for 30 seconds to let the spices bloom and then add your tomato/pepper paste and stir continuously until a sauce forms. About 1-2 minutes. The oil should be reddish.
Step 3: add the beans. Just stir them in and make sure they are covered in the sauce.
Step 4: water. Add 3 cups water (less if you’re in a hurry) and bring to a boil, then reduce to a simmer.
Step 5: anything that should be added to the water. Add the sugar and lemon/vinegar. This is really to taste, so you can add more when it’s almost done if it needs it. It should be just a little sweet and tangy. You can also add leafy greens like kale or spinach, but I don’t add them if I plan on eating it cold later.
Let it simmer until it’s a very beany stew (not a soup), but at the very least 10 minutes. It should be a little watery. Check the flavor and add salt, pepper, sugar, lemon/vinegar, or olive oil as needed. Parsley makes a great garnish.
This can be eaten hot or cold, with or without rice. Will keep about a week in the fridge.
I’ll reply below with a lentil soup recipe that’s more or less the same thing.
As much chopped leeks as you can handle. Should cover the bottom of the pot at least. Leeks are huge, cheap, delicious, and freeze really well chopped, so I always keep them stocked. You can use onions instead, but I think leeks are much better for soup.
2-3 medium carrots, quarter slices
2-3 celery, sliced
2-3 cloves garlic
2 cups dry/raw green or brown lentils or split green peas
2 tablespoons tomato paste
1/2 cup pearled barley or orzo pasta (or other pasta/grain, or just use more lentils)
Half bunch kale leaves in bite size pieces
Extra virgin olive oil
Juice of 1/2 lemon or white vinegar
Salt, pepper, paprika
Optionally, bay leaves and turmeric
Step 1: heat a pot with oil and cook your leeks, carrots, and celery until soft. Leeks cook a bit longer.
Step 2: add the spices and let them bloom. Add tomato paste and stir until sauce forms.
Step 3: stir in lentils/peas and barley/orzo.
Step 4: add 7 cups water (adjust to preference) and bring to a boil, then let simmer. Cook for 30-45 minutes (or 15-20 in pressure cooker) depending on the lentils/peas you picked. Lentils are done when they are just about bursting.
Step 5: add lemon and kale
Obviously, a lot of this is to taste. If you don’t have good fresh veggies, the broth can be a little flavorless. You can add a bit more lemon and salt, or bullion if it’s really bland. If you know the veggies aren’t great, just use more of them in the first step. You can also use less water.
You can broil the kale with a bit of olive oil and salt for 3-4 minutes until it’s crispy before adding to the soup. This will give it a less fibrous, more crunchy character.
Not the same person, but I’m in a similar position, just further along. Getting meat out of my diet was actually really trivial. Cheese is the big problem.
Fully vegan when I cook at home, but vegan options in restaurants and fast food are non-existent where I live, so I have cheese whenever I eat out. I’ve also come to terms with the fact I can never be fully vegan because I have 2 cats who need their cat food.
Dairy contains a morphine-like substance so baby calves are drawn to it. Cheese is literally addictive.
While many scientists believe cats to be obligate carnivores, one study attempted to show that many of the studies conducted in plant-based diets to not show any detrimental effects, when the test wasn’t conducted poorly or there was already a selection bias in place.
I’m aware, but I don’t eat cheese out of choice. The times I do eat cheese are because I’m in a restaurant with family/friends and my options are being hungry the whole night, eating meat, or eating a salad with cheese in it. With those options, I take the cheese. Again, I don’t eat cheese at home.
This doesn’t cement veganism for domestic felines, but it does show that better studies need to be conducted
Fair enough. I’ll keep an eye out, but I’m immediately skeptical because unlike us humans, cats are naturally carnivorous.
Yep. I’m a vegetarian for environmental reasons. There’s a huge amount of will behind ending humanity’s reliance on fossil fuels, but very few care about ending our reliance on meat, the most inefficient source of food.
I agree with you to an extent, but, like, what about my local farm that pasture raised pigs and cows and, yes, eventually slaughters them, how do they compare to what I think everyone agrees are terrible, the meat processing plants of the Midwest?
Nothing is black and white, of course, but slaughtering animals for consumption is animal exploitation and worse for the environment. The impact is much smaller, but still fundamentsl.
Ultimately, it comes down to how we see animals, life, and the environment.
Carnivores have just as much right to live as their prey, as unfortunate as the cost of life is.
We, as humans, are in a rather unique position, being omnivores with many of us in the developed world having easy access to food. And those of us can make a choice to not cause the death of other sentient beings in order to have food.
At least for the public at large such methods aren’t practical (not enough space to raise enough meat) and not able to produce meat at a cost the general public could afford.
It’s also still horrible to butcher the animals, I don’t consider any such killing to be humane. They are also killed at a rather young age, barely even adult just max size. You also have the forced pregnancy of the animals and odds are the pigs are still crated after giving birth, the cow calves separated from their mothers, etc.
I haven’t gone full vegetarian or vegan. I should for the health of our world though. I have however cut my meat consumption down to about 1# a week, usually chicken. For whatever that’s worth.
I didn’t realize I was straight up addicted to meat in my diet till I tried cutting it out. I think that’s why people get angry with vegans, cause then they gotta look inward, and then that’s gonna be this whole other thing. Oofta
I wonder how bad eggs are for the environment though?
To be fair there was a large amount of time (2010s at least) where vegans weren’t even trying to be appealling. It was either. Stereotypical vegan dishes but even more limited or extremely bad vegetarian meat. Vegetarian meat has improved a lot and more importantly vegan food is represented as less one note.
Don’t think I’m strong enough to give up dairy but respect to those who can do so without being elitist
I didn’t care for the “beyond meat” so much. I don’t mind the old school bocca burgers. Throw it on a bun and dress tf outta that burger you’ll be alright. I’ve been big into beans. Making hummus. Bean salads. Enchiladas. They really are the magical fruit. Cheese is tough I hear ya.
And they’re not all elitists. Some are just really good environmentalists who maybe aren’t so good at communicating and have maybe been burned in the past. But ya some just like the smell of their own farts.
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