Whenever someone posts a meme like this all the “vote harder” people come out of the woodwork to get mad at the OP. I’ve never told people not to vote, but I do 1000% believe that voting is the absolute least you can do to progress society.
Edit: don’t bother reporting OP for this meme because I’m not gonna take it down.
Meh - this perfectly captures the micro-conditions in targeted areas. It’s a reality of global politics spanning 7000 years and involving hundreds of wars and billions of people. If that sounds callous it’s because I don’t know those people; they are outside of my monkey space and - as a human - I deal with them as non-persons, no matter how empathetic I think I am. I know it’s fucking terrible buti also know that (a) I don’t have control over it and (b) I have a hundred other things to worry about, like if my daughter might die due to something stupid like not getting her medical treatment because some religious nut says those meds might be used by someone to induce an abortion or to prevent pregnancy, or that the local coal mine is about to foul the water supply if our entire valley because they’ve paid a politician to look the other way while they dump heavy metals into our primary drinking water source.
If I have a beef it’s only that “the next one” is no longer relevant because Biden’s (well, the US Government, but some directly authorized I’m sure) been bombing places for 3.5 years now, and 15.5 out of the last 19.5 if you connect him with the Obama administration. Otherwise it’s completely legitimate hyperbole/satire which recognizes the realty of decisions half way around the world. I think I’d be pissed if you took it down.
What leads you to believe the needs of you and your daughter are more important than those of Hispanic immigrants or Palestinians? This is peak dehumanization.
Also, yes it really is Biden. He signed off on this shit and put the weight of his administration behind it.
This seems like a very bad faith take on what they said.
They said they are their daughter and more important to themselves. That’s not dehumanization. That’s pretty normal. For most people, they, and their family and friends are more important to themselves than others.
If that’s normal for most people, then I can’t wait until our human race perishes. If lacking so much empathy is normal, then we’re a blight on the earth as well as each other.
No, this is peak human. If someone were to make me choose between my wife dying and someone else’s wife dying in [insert state or country I’ve never been to], someone else’s wife is going to die. If I get those two choices individually, I choose to save both. Where are the Jews who see Netanyahu as the Fascist aggressor with no regard for human life or territorial sovereignty and cast him out for a pacifist leader. Where are the Palestinians who want a joint government and will cast out Hamas? They both exist, but the leadership is out of their control. As individual humans We. Don’t. Get. That. Choice.
That’s the complication of (in this meme) electing a single person who will influence 1000 decisions. No matter how I choose, some of those 1000 will hurt someone. It’s a guarantee. No matter how empathetic I am, I cannot correct a century of political meddling (in Latin America or in the Middle East) no can I correct two thousand years of religious hatred. And those are just two of a hundred active problems.
I Think your meme offers a rational perspective and is excellent satire about people who just want to protect their families from harm. Please don’t call me inhuman for recognizing I cannot meaningfully change political conditions in the world which are the result of centuries of conflict.
Same. I’ve literally said I’d vote for Biden, but I still get accused of supporting Trump by conservative and centrist Democrats. They’re willing to hand-wave atrocities for the sake of a campaign. I’m not willing to overlook the suffering caused by our current administration, nor to deflect blame onto others.
Well I’m not voting for Biden, I’ve never voted for a democrat presidential candidate as they are indistinguishable from republicans, at minimum, a decade ago.
Therefore with whatever God or enthropic void entity out in the cosmos, or whoever is reading this comment more realistically, as my witness - I will never vote for evil.
Though I have pushed back against the idea of sitting out this presidential election or voting 3rd party I am 100% on board with your approach. Definitely call out this sickening support of genocide, protest, write letters, and whatever else one can do. Longer term, also work on getting something better than first past the post and this stupid electrical college BS. And come Nov, don’t let Trump in.
I’m only voting for Biden if we’re actually allowed to put him on blast for his atrocities. It’s appalling how cultlike and defensive the Dems have become.
I’m saying the entire system is rotten, and it can’t be fixed by voting for the lesser of two evils, when the lesser of two evils is still a genocidal maniac
I’m all for protesting and fighting for active change. My fear is it turning into a bunch of progressive voters protesting with their vote and the destruction that could create in the advancement of progressive views say ten to twenty years from now. If somehow trump is reelected the results will be disastrous. That’s not an excuse for Biden and certainly shouldn’t be a platform for him or any other Democrat. Showing the electorate that their is a strong reliable voting block of progressives through support of policy and candidates will promote a progressive shift over time. While not nearly perfect that has been on display for years now. Candidates are going to continue to try to secure votes, it’s what they do. Republicans are in crazy fascist mode because their is a reliable voting base that loves the narcissistic hate and racism. Young and old progressives, but especially young, voter’s showing they are reliable voters will provide a foundation in which the party is incentivized to put up more and more progressive candidates. The reliance on republicans who are never trumpers and racist bigoted independents prevents true progressive candidates from being successful politicians. The only fix available in the current day climate is to show a stronger and growing progressive voter base. I am of the belief Nikki Haley is positioning her self as the defecto candidate come next election cycle and she’s nearly as concerning as trump. I am really hoping that Biden is able to secure the election and progressive’s show engagement not only on the primary but also down year elections and these same social protests outside of election years so a more progressive candidate can come forward. A shift has to happen, no party is going to put up a candidate that hasn’t shown their is a reliable pool of voters for.
I’m all for protesting and fighting for active change. My fear is it turning into a bunch of progressive voters protesting with their vote and the destruction that could create in the advancement of progressive views say ten to twenty years from now. If somehow trump is reelected the results will be disastrous.
Oh my gods, a comment actually worth engaging with! Thank you! I want to hug you so much right now lol
I understand this fear, but conversely I have the fear that in the process of trying to avoid this scenario, centrist Democrats are pushing progressive and leftist voters away from the polls by doubling down and dismissing our concerns every time that their raised, and by accusing us of hurting the campaign when we criticize the sitting president for putting the weight of his administration behind things like ICE, the border policy, mass surveillance of citizens, arming genocidal states, failing to introduce adequate healthcare and housing to our citizens, etc., etc. In 2020, all we heard was a chorus of liberals proudly proclaiming that they’re not as cultlike as Republicans, but as soon as Biden took office … this all changed. It was like a switch flipped, and as soon as he started opening more concentration camps and we were like “WTF,” we got the defensive response … like, “Oh he’s only doing this to satisfy conservative voters” – well guess what? Using human lives like that for political gain is not acceptable. Anyone with the slightest bit of empathy and perspective can tell you that.
And it’s only gotten worse since then, with us being summarily dismissed as “Russian bots” on every forum, and “Trump supporters” like wtf bro.
The only fix available in the current day climate is to show a stronger and growing progressive voter base.
Okay, but as I’ve said, every time we try to show this and express this, we’re silenced, so can that shit like … cease? That would sure be nice! But even for this pretty moderate, vanilla post my instance admin/mod received multiple reports from users trying to get it removed. Why? Because they are status quo warriors who don’t want to engage with progressives and leftists openly and in good faith. Simple as that. (Or they’re simply brainwashed and don’t really think things through, or some of them are actually closet conservatives – I’ve encountered a lot of Democrats like that in my community).
A shift has to happen, no party is going to put up a candidate that hasn’t shown their is a reliable pool of voters for.
And after decades of observing and experiencing, including volunteering and passionately campaigning for Obama in 08, thinking finally we had a progressive candidate, only for the bait-and-switch to happen yet again – I’ve concluded that the system will never provide this. It cannot be fixed from within. I still vote in every election, including local elections, but I have zero faith in the efficacy of my vote, and maybe the day will come to actually boycott the vote, though I don’t think that time is now.
Meanwhile, I try to practice my anarchist principles as much as I can in South Dafuckingkota and do my best to help my friends, relatives, and neighbors. We’ve managed to help people evade deportation, given people a roof when they’ve been evicted, helped my LGBTQ+ community when they’ve been kicked out by their parents, and try to have conversations with my local reps to hopefully push things to a better place.
But again, I have zero faith in our system. If you take a look at our nation historically, we’ve always been a colonial, imperialist, and genocidal state, and none of this has ever changed, and never will by voting, in my opinion.
So now, do you understand my perspective? Let me know if you have any questions, because I’d be happy to answer them.
Remember when the Jews tried to to destroy Germany, started murdering their neighbors for legally buying land, then launched 70 years of brutal terror attacks against them? Oh wait, none of that happened. Your analogy is terrible. Pre-war Gaza was nothing like Warsaw ghettos, they were marketing it as a tourist destination, they had a fucking zoo.
Have you ever heard the opinions of people who’ve actually worked in Gaza about the conditions Gazans were living under prior to October 7th, or did history just start when our allies and our government say it started?
I’d say you’re just being disingenuous but I’ve come to learn some people really are just this stupid.
More like in the middle of having their land stolen, their people dying and kept under poverty for decades, and the few that resist getting killed, tortured and worse, all with the benediction - or at best lip-service against it - of the West
“Israel” is a colonialist racist project that will be destroyed
Lmao I don’t think anyone’s arguing that trump isn’t a shithead.
Point is both are genocidal imperialist parties. The US political system only exists to protect capital and imperialism after all, since its government has been the de facto leader of the imperial core since WW2.
Unfortunately, the only US president who tried to do something half-decent, JFK for wanting to abolish the CIA and giving an anti-imperialist speech titled “Imperialism: the Enemy of Freedom” to seemingly curtail the US’s invasions in foreign countries, made himself an enemy of both the political parties, and was thus assassinated by the CIA.
Like I said, political systems in the imperial core, specially in the US, only really exist to protect capital, while giving a thin veneer of “democracy”.
Seeing how the US gov has gone so far that it’s committing a(nother) genocide, I personally expect any actual change to come from mass organization, pressure and agitation from organizations outside it forcing change, perhaps aided by existing ones like the FRSO or PSL. Ideally they’d overthrow this imperialist government altogether but hoping for that in the imperial core is probably being too wishful.
You’d be surprised. Seen so many arguing that they should be protesting him too, because it’s totally possible trump the deranged sociopath could be swayed.
This is a fallacy. You find one area in which the two presidents are the same, and you extrapolate that into saying they’re exactly the same in all areas. It’s not a bad faith attack or trolling. It’s just the result of someone whose thoughts are too simple to grasp the fact that people are similar in some ways and different in other ways. It’s the thought process of someone who just doesn’t get nuance.
Look, me and my partner are trans, and it lives in the US. We’re terrified it’s going to be killed by the Republican party during their next presidency. Conditions are eerily similar to 1920s Germany and we know our history. It’s a refugee. I’m trying to get enough money to move it to my country, but I’m broke. I need more time. I want a progressive US president as much as anyone, I want to avert this shit. But if Biden wins the primary, that’s 4 more years I have to save my partner’s life. This is a matter of immediate life or death to me. That’s 4 more years every trans person has to get out before it gets worse. I feel bad for people in the middle east, but my views on which president to elect don’t affect them. It affects my partner. I don’t agree with this view of “let’s ignore trans people and focus on the middle east”. The lesser evil means I don’t have to grieve my love.
You might not understand this election actually mattering if you don’t have any trans loved ones.
Okay, well if we agree that Biden and Trump are different in other areas, then what is even the point of this comic?
Let’s imagine that Anna and Peter are competing for the Vancouver regional tapdancing championship. They both had really good performances, and now the judges have to make a decision. Is Anna’s flawless execution of traditional tap integrated with the forgotten styles of the past worthy of winning, or does Peter’s bold new interpretation of an electronic tap genre deserve to take the gold?
No matter who the judges pick to win the regional tap championship, people in the middle east will still be bombed by US drones. Are you going to make a comic about how the tap championship is meaningless because it won’t make a difference in the middle east?
The tap contest is like the US election because, as you argue, they both have no bearing on outcomes in the middle east. Therefore, they’re irrelevant. If a tap contest won’t change the situation in the middle east, don’t make comics complaining about the tap contest’s effect on the middle east. If an election won’t change the situation in the middle east, don’t make comics complaining about the election’s effect on the middle east. It’s not relevant to the discussion. It should be relevant, I agree with you there, but as you point out, this election it simply isn’t. If we want to improve the situation in the middle east, we need to do more direct action ourselves, not vote for it. So stop bringing voting into the conversation about the middle east.
This is a comic opposed to those who claim that The Best System in The World™ is that we must perpetually vote for the lesser of two evils, when both choices are still unacceptably and horrifically evil. Maybe your party and your system … kinda suck? Dontcha think?
It’s also a comic opposed to centrist and conservative Democrats and other status quo warriors who rail against leftists and progressives while silencing us and calling us russian bots and trolls, instead of actually listening to what we have to say. I’ve talked to a lot of other anarchists and socialists on a regular basis, and we’re fucking sick of it. If we’re not even allowed to pressure the sitting president to do better, then what even is the point? You centrists kept repeating the lie that you’re not as cultlike as Republicans in 2020 to get our votes – and then every time a post like this is made or an issue is raised, you get defensive of your genocidal maniac and come out with guns blazing. Many of you even reported me to my moderator/instance admin. Thankfully, this is a leftist instance where your shit isn’t tolerated, unlike right-wing neoliberal instances like lemm.ee or lemmy.world.
If we’re not even allowed to pressure the sitting president to do better, then what even is the point?
that’s not what this comic is doing, this comic is equivocating voting for Trump and Biden…
at least with biden it’s possible to pressure him to do something, with dictator trump we get a genocide in Ukraine, Palestine, and america…
I’m an anarcho-communist who does direct action. I’m so far to the left, Hexbear banned me thinking I was a troll, because they couldn’t imagine someone with views as left as me. I’m a soulist, I want to destroy consensus reality because it’s white supremacist. If you want to have a pissing contest about who’s more leftist, fine. I bet you don’t even want to abolish consensus reality. Yeah, you criticise Joe Biden (as I do), but I struggle to believe that you’ve criticised the actual systems of realism that perpetuate capitalism and genocide.
You’re so full of yourself, it’s pathetic. I bet you believe your own bullshit. You’re the first person I’m blocking in this thread because you’re such a foolish liar.
Note to mods or anyone who thinks this is too harsh: Please look up exocrinous in the lemmy.dbzer0.com modlog. They’re a known transphobe and troll, and if they are being honest about being an ancom, then I don’t know of any anarchists who would welcome them into our community, and that’s the truth. You can’t oppress and exclude entire swaths of LGBTQ+ people and still remain anarchist.
I do believe they’re being honest about being banned from hexbear, though. They’re also banned from blahaj and many other instances. I’d recommend pre-emptively blocking this user.
I’m not a transphobe. You’re repeating accusations that it’s transphobic of me to identify as a xenogender, because xenogenders “make light of real trans people’s struggles”.
And yes, it is pathetic that I’m so full of myself. I know. I have narcissistic personality disorder. People tell me all day that I’m pathetic for having this mental disorder. You’re just one more person insulting me for my mental health.
Note to mods or anyone who thinks this is too harsh: Please look up exocrinous in the lemmy.dbzer0.com modlog.
So I looked at the modlog, and it says I was banned from gay@lemmy.world for being a “narcissistic psychopath”. Can you confirm you’re asking the mods to attack me for having NPD and being a “psychopath”?
Lol funny seeing the modlogs. Seems like you evaded bans with alt accounts like “DroneRights” and have been banned by startrek.website, hexbear.net, lemmy.blahaj.zone, lemmy.dbzer0.com, lemmy.world etc for transphobia, enbyphobia, right wing takes, harrassment among others.
Weird lemmy unity. I can’t see what’s been banned but judging by your takes here it’s probably reasonable.
Nah, the startrek.website admins are cool with me. We had a misunderstanding 6 months ago but we worked it all out. That’s why I’m commenting from a startrek.website account.
Lmao that’s not even remotely true. Your lemm.ee account got banned yesterday so you made this one. You even made a post trying to get sympathy for your toxic behaviour.
Congratulations on devaluing the word genocide until it is meaningless. It doesn't mean a lot of civilians died, it means destroying a protected group, which is not happening. Collateral damage does not a genocide make.
Nuance is very important even during a genocide. For example, you chose not to see nuance, and you didn’t notice that I’m not american. You saw what you wanted to see because you were angry. Anyone who disagrees is the enemy and must hold the identity of the enemy, in your mind. You’re thinking just like the kinds of people who commit genocides. They don’t believe in nuance, they attack because they see the enemy everywhere.
This is the most successful republican presidency since George Bush and you want to throw it all away for the republicans to win. We’ve declared war on the entire middle east, we’re doing the most egregious genocide since the holocaust, we declared SARS-CoV over and the economy fixed purely through the power of pretending. We’re this close to enacting the entire republican border policy, if only the republicans would vote for it but they won’t tie that to funding our genocide or our Nazi Mujaheddin currently replaying how the Nazis lost WW2. We need to enshrine our fossil fuel production and expand it wherever we can, to put a right-wing Christian man in charge of handling abortion rights, and to ensure a senile husk is in charge of every major decision for however long he lives into his term. That’s the only way Kamala Harris can run unopposed as an incumbent president in 2028 to save democracy.
And means-tested to a point of absurdity that’s on par with Kamala Harris saying you deserved student loan forgiveness if you’re a pell grant recipient who runs a business in a ghetto for three years. It’s like them inventing new kinds of mathematics to explain why your COVID stimulus payment is actually what you were supposed to get instead of what your lying tankie eyes see. Liberals are smiling foxes.
We’re this close to enacting the entire republican border policy
Except it looks like the border policy is shared by both parties. More people are being imprisoned and deported under Biden than were under Trump, but anyone with a modicum of empathy is told to stfu for the sake of a campaign.
Ruh roh, looks like I’m a rUsSiAn BoT because I criticized our genocidal president ¯_(⊙︿⊙)_/¯
Arming a genocidal regime and imprisoning and murdering innocent refugees at the southern border is just normal after all, and I just need to be rEaLiStIc becuase it’s so hard simply not to commit multiple human rights violations
I believe so called democracies around the world are a farce but the US' "democracy" is so shameless about how they do it that Im surprised most people doesnt seem to realize.
It’s a horrible system, yeah. When people tell me I “have no choice” but to vote for a candidate like Biden, I don’t think they have a shred of self awareness. They’re basically admitting that this is a blatantly undemocratic system. I start to think that they just don’t really care about using people like immigrants or Palestinians as political pawns, and then it makes me feel like maybe the entire human race is simply awful.
I’m middle aged. My perspective is based on decades of being lied to by Democrats and being marginalized by both parties for being LGBT+ with a family of immigrants. Your opinion sounds like the childish one here, chief – mindlessly parroting tired capitalist propaganda.
We need to dismantle the system. It’s never been good, it only harms, and it cannot be fixed from within.
So you’re just stupid and willfully ignorant then, huh. Must be all the lead in your brain.
Being upset about how the big parties treat LGBT people (how have the democrats marginalized you again?) is not a reason to burn down the government you petulant child.
We have more than two seconds, and what does this have to do with criticizing a sitting president? Explain. I’m not allowed to highlight the atrocities his administration commits?
Edit: You have to kill the person, and you aren’t allowed to complain about it either. One way is “murder the people” and the other choice is “murder the innocent person #Pride#BLM” – we’re not allowed to talk about how colossally shitty it was to establish this trolley system in the first place?
Not in the trolley scenario you don’t. But in the situation it represents, how do you, personally, plan to “burn the trolley and rip up the tracks” before November?
what does this have to do with criticizing a sitting president?
Fomenting electoral apathy in the conscientious portion of the population just before a close election empowers the candidate preferred by the non-conscientious portion of the population. I’m all for criticisms, but leftist infighting, and refusing to “big-tent” with neo-liberals in election years, only benefits the right.
The opposition learned how to play the game and move things incrementally towards their goals. Letting idealism obstruct pragmatism is only making things worse, even when your ideals are right. Play the game or lose.
So what you’re saying is we have a terrible undemocratic system that was founded on the ideals of oppression and genocide, and that there’s no hope of fixing it. Got it.
Never said that, but smugly refusing to participate because it’s flawed is not an effective path toward fixing it. Conservatives have been gutting civil liberties by patiently toeing the line and playing by the rules of the game to develop their position over decades. Progressives have been splitting vote (or just straight up not voting) because they let their ideals prevent them from compromising on winning strategies.
Ideals and principles are great guiding stars to aim toward, and I desperately hope to live to see fully automated luxury gay space communism, but refusing to vote for the lesser evil isn’t getting us any closer. It’s just bringing us closer to an actualfascist United States.
Lol okay, but this so-called “why should I vote” brigade is STILL not here. Sounds like a strawman to me, because zero 1 (one) users in this thread are saying not to vote.
Update: One user referenced not voting as a strategy to affect change, but then said that now is not the time for such a strategy
I did, sorry. But it has to be done in big enough numbers, which would not be possible right now. So, vote and start organizing for the next elections.
I made that comment before you showed up, though. I think there is an argument to be made not to vote, but I agree that now isn’t the time.
Regardless, that’s not what this post was about, but conservative and centrist Democrats will literally argue against anything except the points I’m trying to make, because they know that it is accurate to criticize our sitting president of multiple atrocities, including supporting a genocidal regime.
It’s appalling that any criticism leveled at an actual sitting president gets summarily dismissed by so many people. Sometimes interacting with such people genuinely makes me feel like not voting, because what even is the point, if we can’t so much as pressure our sitting president to do better? It’s absurd to me.
I can literally admit that I intend to vote for Biden, but that doesn’t matter. These people demand COMPLETE dedication to their sports team party, including holding any party member immune from criticism. Their “lesser of two evils” schtick is wearing thin. I’ve been around since the 80s, and it’s been the same routine my whole life.
Absolutelly agree, I guess thats the power of indoctrination :c
I made that comment before you showed up
Yes I only replied that so you wouldnt get a "gotcha" reply from someone else.
Your views on these democracies match mine perfectly, I think, and you express them way better than I could ever do so I didnt want to "hurt" your arguments any further.
I don’t think you could hurt my arguments because the naysayers in threads like these only come to scream at people made of straw. I can only hope that some of what we say might sink in for some people once they’ve had time to process it, but anyone who’s willing to see other humans as expendable for a campaign’s sake are not very likely to be persuaded, in my experience and opinion.
Apparently, they’re even reporting me to my mod and instance admin. They really don’t want to discuss our nation’s complicity in genocide.
I feel that we are of a like mind though, and I appreciate that you’re here. It makes me feel at least slightly hopeful for the future
Supporting genocidal actions is not an acceptable tolerance.
It’s a hard line and if you people want to support someone that does something like that, no matter which side or on then we deserve whatever fucking comes to us.
Arm yourselves, and be ready, learn how to grow plants and how to hunt.
Between potatoes and greens and beans. You can survive for a while on a nutritious fucking diet even when shit starts gets scarce.
It’ll be hard, but we will make it.
I’m not even suggesting for prepper shit, just stuff that was common knowledge less than 100 years ago that we forgotten because of the society that we have now.
Hell, I own grow bags that I could hang out in an apartment window and grow stuff 20 feet off the ground with no balcony
Before he went to jump down my throat, I mean, no one really knows where their food comes from anymore or how to throw their own.
I am making no assertions other than that when I talk about the things that society has forgotten because of the way it is now
Yeah, my husband and I have talked about the idea of moving to rural Mexico. Not that things are great in that nation either, but it’s a warmer climate where my relatives live with lots of potential for growing food, keeping chickens, drawing fresh water, and being able to survive even if things go down. Maybe even get a group of people together to make it work.
Honestly, I’d not be sorry to see a nation like the US crumble, but I’d feel concerned for the people who would suffer and die as a result.
I don’t find a system that provides me with only two choices – one being a candidate who actively persecutes immigrants and Native people and denies people basic rights like housing and healthcare while sending arms to genocidal regimes, and the other being the same but also wanting to establish a theotratic autocracy – to fall within the acceptable range. I’d probably not listen to anyone who finds this situation remotely acceptable.
Who’s “smugly refusing” though? I’m bristling at the suggestion that a sitting president should be immune from criticism, especially one who is ACTIVELY supporting genocide!
an actual fascist United States.
I’ve got bad news for you about us. We’re already a fascist state. Yes, it can get worse, but just the existence of agencies like ICE and our entire fucked up history paints a grim picture of what we are.
So if you’re telling me my only choices are either a genocidal maniac or a slightly less genocidal maniac, then I’ll tell you we do not have a democracy. That is NOT a democracy that you’re describing. You admit this, right?
I understand the logic that not voting might give the presidency to Trump but its also a good way to expose the falacy of our "democracies". The less participation there is the harder it gets to keep the lie.
Theres a reason why Australia made voting compulsory.
Oh no, the left didn’t vote! What a shame! Now we won’t have any tasty ballots to snack on. Oh well, I guess we’d better start drifting left and further away from the interests of the people who actually elected us. Gee, I was really hoping the people whose views fundamentally oppose our own were going to vote. Mr Trump, we’d better stop suppressing black people’s votes right away, cause the left isn’t voting and we think that’s bad.
Another clever solution, but where’s the log? I don’t see one there, and the trolley is too close for you to have time to go off to find one.
What even is the log in this scenario, another insurrection? Not voting isn’t throwing a log, it’s just not pulling the lever.
What makes you think the accelerationist position of “exposing the fallacy” would actually make anything better? It’s very possible, I’d argue probable, that it would just make a lasting fascist regime more likely. What reason do you have to believe that a more transparent lie would be enough to make people actual do anything different?
Personally, I don’t think that’s a gamble with very favorable odds.
I just don’t see what any of this has to do with correctly pointing out that our sitting president is complicit in genocide among other atrocities. Do you think we should only say nice things about him and that we should respect him no matter what? Because this is not gonna happen. I’m a bad person, but I’m not so bad that I’m willing to tolerate genocide or the victims of our manufactured border “crisis.” Fuck all of that completely.
The only reason I see any point in voting is if we can demand more of the president. Are you part of a cult? Because unquestionably following a leader and shielding him from all criticism on the grounds that someone worse might win is straight up creepy and cultlike.
What even is the log in this scenario, another insurrection? Not voting isn’t throwing a log, it’s just not pulling the lever.
As I see it, the lever is the choice being made, in this case dem. or rep., the tracks are the electoral system and the log is the third option they dont want us to give and have taught us it doesnt exist.
In a true democracy we should be able to say "we dont like options given, do better" but those voices are conveniently ignored.
What makes you think the accelerationist position of “exposing the fallacy” would actually make anything better?
The first step in demanding the true is to realize you've been lied to. If everyone is voting it must mean that they agree the system works because people dont usually waste time in tasks that they believe are fruitless. I believe people will realize something is wrong with their "democracy" when its minorities choosing for everyone else and start demanding true democracy.
Also, the fact that they, the rulling class, seems to be afraid of it. As I mentioned before, australia making vote compulsory when the numbers were geting "too low for comfort" is a good example.
Personally, I don’t think that’s a gamble with very favorable odds.
Its possible it could backfire, yes. And, as I said in another comment, right now wouldnt be the best time to do it. Vote, but be aware that the system you participate in is just mitigating the symptoms of a desease and not treating it. Pretending otherwise is not a good gamble either.
Actions must be taken to change it. An organized effort to sabotage the elections by not voting could be one option.
And you forget the fact that even if most people votes theres a chance trump will still win. Even if biden gets the popular vote, just like it happened in 2016. Who will you blame then?
The way these types of conversations can get so heated is an indicator that people is still not placing the blame where it should be. People need to be shown the truth, which is hard when our whole lives we've been "educated" to believe a lie, and again, I think electoral sabotage is a good attempt at that.
In any nation with first past the post elections, like the United States, Leftists have exactly one rational voting strategy:
Step 1. Identify the two front-runner parties, and determine which of the two is further left relative to the other.
Step 2. Vote for that party in every single election (don’t forget midterms and local elections). Encourage everyone you know to do the same.
Step 3. Once the (relative) left party has an overwhelming majority (over 2/3) and the relative right party becomes vanishingly irrelevant (under 1/3), then split the (relative) left party into its own relative left and right.
Step 4. Repeat steps 1-3 with these new front-runner parties.
Step 5. Iterate step 4 until your relative left party passes election reform such that elections are no longer susceptible to Duverger’s Law.
Certainly try to push for reform within the relative left party between elections and during primaries, but at the ballot box the above is the only rational strategy. Voting third party, or refusing to vote the lesser evil, is not a rational strategy.
What I fail to understand Is how will you split the left party (step 3).
Do citizens in the US can choose what candidates the parties push forward?
If not: Why would the left party propose leftier candidates? They know that as long as their guy is not as "bad" as the competition you will vote for them and they are "sponsored" by the same corporations which dont like leftist policies.
Theres no incentive for them to turn further left; Is it?
Voting third party splits the vote. Once over 2/3s of voters are voting for the left party, voters can comfortably vote for a more progressive party without worrying about vote splitting. For example, if Democrats consistently get 70% of the vote, progressive voters can rally behind a progressive party. It’s not that you’re actually splitting the Democratic party, you’re just splitting the voters between the Democratic and Progressive parties.
That kinda makes sense, but for the dems to consistently get 70 what needs to change is the political views of the voters, right? For that to happen they need to believe the dem party is actually the best option and for that to happen the dem party must lean way more left. But again; Why would they do that if you are already rewarding them for being "not as bad".
I forgot to mention before that you are basing this strategy on another fallacy. "First past the post" means nothing when hillary won the popular vote in 2016 and still lost the presidency.
“First past the post” means nothing when hillary won the popular vote in 2016 and still lost the presidency.
The fact that the relevant electors are Electoral College members, and not the general population, doesn’t change FPTP.
Further, the Dems are unambiguously the better option. Them not being good enough doesn’t make than worse than Repubs. Expecting them to change is not a voting strategy. Running about it as “rewarding” them is counterproductive. What needs to change out is progressive turnout, Once we have the turnout then we can start talking about better alternatives to the Dems. Until then it’s a moot point. Progressives refusing to settle for the lesser evil is why they don’t have 70% representation
Certainly try to push for reform within the relative left party between elections and during primaries
Democrats aren’t open to having these discussions. The moment people started criticizing Biden for opening more concentration camps, Democrats dug in their heels and became defensive, lashing out at anyone with valid criticism and calling us “Russian bots,” accusing us of secretly supporting Trump, and this behavior has continued since then, and it seems to emit from the majority of all centrist and conservative Democrats.
The idea that we can push for change is a nice thought, but it doesn’t work when they’re not open to valid criticism of a sitting president.
Even this pretty moderate post has been reported by liberals and other bad-faith actors who are not open to discussing anything to the left of Reagan.
Sure, but by focusing on that line, which was a nice afterthought ,you’re ignoring the rest of the comment, which was the functionally important part. Regardless of any other actions and considerations, it is imperative to vote in every election, and to vote for the further left of the two front-runner parties, which at the moment would be the Democrats.
Every other other action is, pragmatically, secondary to increasing Leftist voter turnout. Any action that discourages Leftist voter turnout (e.g. refusing to vote for the lesser evil on principle because it’s still evil) is counterproductive. Democrats don’t care about having discussions with progressives because progressives don’t show up to vote, and they know the ones that do know better than to split the vote.
If every progressive voted, and Democrats consistently won 70% of the vote, the Republican threat would disappear, and the Democrats would not longer be safe by virtue of Duverger’s Law. Then a Progressive party could meaningfully emerge, meaningfully threaten Democrats, and Democrats would have to actually have those discussions.
People have straight up gloated to me that something like 70% of voters support our fascist border policy and arming a genocidal state. What makes you so sure we can fix this by voting?
Also, I don’t buy the idea that right-wing liberals would listen to leftists if we vote. I vote in every election, but they still treat me like absolute trash. They love that people are suffering and that they can gloat that there’s no effective way to save them.
FFS look at the maniacal comments in this thread. And this is actually better than the norm.
If we can’t fix this by 100% voter turnout, then our ideals aren’t popular, and democracy has spoken.
What is your pragmatic alternative? What strategy is 1. Actionable and 2. Effective 3. Incompatible with the process I outlined above? Widespread change will be a function of multi-modal effort, there’s no reason not to commit to higher turnout while simultaneously pushing for change in other ways. Defeatist outlooks are what the opposition wants, don’t reward them.
What is your pragmatic alternative? What strategy is 1. Actionable and 2. Effective 3. Incompatible with the process I outlined above? Widespread change will be a function of multi-modal effort, there’s no reason not to commit to higher turnout while simultaneously pushing for change in other ways. Defeatist outlooks are what the opposition wants, don’t reward them
So in other words, doing exactly what I’ve been suggesting this entire time? Or what do you think that I’ve been saying? I vote in every election, and I’m still not allowed to complain when my president commits genocide? Is that what you’re saying, or what exactly is your point?? What is it you’re trying to convince me of that I’m not already doing?
Any action that discourages Leftist voter turnout (e.g. refusing to vote for the lesser evil on principle because it’s still evil) is counterproductive.
If we can’t fix this by 100% voter turnout, then our ideals aren’t popular, and democracy has spoken.
And there are supposed to be failsafes to prevent tyranny of the majority. Did you forget that? Was slavery ok in the antebellum south because the majority supported it? No. You can’t just trample on human lives simply because a majority support it.
Anarchism has failsafes for this since hierarchical structures are by definition not welcome. Our system does not? Then let’s burn it to the ground.
I know the answer btw. I’m speaking rhetorically. It’s obvious that our system results in genocide. I mean, we have an active genocide against indigenous people.
Do you support trampling on human rights and committing atrocities like genocide simply because the majority support it? Please answer this, because if you think this is fine, then I’m done trying to get through to you.
Edit: And before you say “of course that’s not what I’m saying,” I’ve had a centrist liberal tell me recently that yes, these atrocities are fine as long as the majority support them, and that was told to me by PugJesus, right-winger and mod on lemmy.world
Anarchism has failsafes for this since hierarchical structures are by definition not welcome.
How does it enforce that unwelcomeness? As much as I ideologically align with anarchism in principle, I don’t see the mechanism for it to preserve what is and isn’t “allowed” under it’s principles. Especially not the ad hoc, spontaneous, nominal anarchism that would result if you burned the current system to the ground.
What stops a charismatic figurehead from rallying the portion of the population that finds authoritarianism comforting, and starting their own fascist hierarchy? The current system may not be perfect, but at least the checks and balances provide some obstacle to despotism. What do you replace that material obstacle with? “Hey! You’re not supposed to do that!”?
I am familiar with the literature. As I said, I identify with it ideologically. It presents philosophical ideals and optimistic, aspirational hypotheticals, built on microscopic examples. Speak for yourself. You tell me how a population not yet widely versed in, and committed to, stable anarcho-communism, prevents the rise of authoritarianism in the ashes of our system, recently burned.
Not a stable anarchic society, a chaotic power vacuum; the transitory state of lawlessness. Explain to me how a stable anarchy spontaneously emerges, because I can show you dozens of historic examples of how authoritarianism spontaneously emerges.
I’ve been working 12 hours, and I’m too tired to express myself to someone who’s done nothing but interpret my comments in the most exhaustingly inhospitable manner and has done nothing but fling irrelevant “gotchas” and other troll-like rudeness at me for days.
Refer to my other comments. I’ve said what I said.
Edit: If you were familiar with the literature, you wouldn’t be asking such baby questions and making clearly incorrect claims about anarchist societies when that book I linked is teeming with examples that contradict your statement.
ITT you’ve done nothing but rabidly defend the status quo and our genocidal system, and anyone who believes you’re anarchist or even leftist is a fool. You’re obviously a status quo defending neoliberal troll, and you’re part of the problem.
Despite your hostile attitude, I’ve been nothing but patient and matter-of-fact. You’re the one throwing around accusations of supporting genocide, among other varieties of unsubstantiated name-calling. Search my comments for a single similar accusation, there’s only been one rude troll in this conversation.
that book I linked is teeming with examples that contradict your statement.
That’s exactly my point though. If it works so well, why are all the examples short-lived footnotes of history? If the literature is to be believed, the world should be an anarchist utopia by now. Why isn’t it? Why didn’t any of those success stories stick the landing on a scale larger than a minor metropolitan commune? What has stopped the spread of true, pure democracy? What justification do you have to believe that it will succeed this time, if we just burn everything down?
Recognizing the material obstacles to anarchism doesn’t mean I don’t believe in it. It just means I’m not foolish enough to delude myself into thinking it’ll just spring up spontaneously from some impassioned violent insurrection. It’s gonna take epic quantities of time, work, and education. Any flash-in-the-pan approach is going to fizzle out, be it by authoritarian oppression, disorganization, or the natural decay of dwindling commitment. “Burn it all down” is not an educated strategy.
Yes? And that history is consistent with what I’ve said. You clearly haven’t read any of it, even this comment chain.
Where have been the “guns blazing” defenses of Biden? All I’ve offered is a sober analysis of the be efficacy of various methods of trying to effect Leftism.
I have made several points which you have chosen not to engage with because they reveal your behaviors to be nothing but whinging and bluster. Your attempts to “educate” me have been ineffective because in every case either 1. I was already familiar with your education material and found it lacking in the practical implementation department or 2. your attempts were devoid of any rational content.
Keep calling other leftists who disagree with you “neoliberal trolls”. What exactly is your position? That the “status quo” needs to be dismantled and replaced with something but what? Democracy is out obviously because of the tyranny of the masses, they don’t know what’s best (remember slavery?), and even most of the Leftists are apparently neoliberal trolls.
So what you’re saying is that the future system needs to be the one that conforms precisely to what you, and an extremely small portion of people who exactly agree with you and drive your purity tests, have decided that it should be. Whatever you call that system, materially. It looks a whole lot like authoritarianism.
Well, those aren’t comments I made, and are in fact the exact opposite of comments I made seeing as they’re removed comments, but I’ll bite nonetheless, and fill in summaries of the actual comments these refer to:
Debatebro = not being a tankie sycophant on hexbear. I’m unashamed.
Transphobia = saying that maybe gender roles themselves are an archaic concept that only obstruct true equality. That while anyone is free to dress and act and present as they please, the more we try to tie that to the gender concept, the more we implicitly legitimize sex discrimination. I’m likewise unashamed.
You’ve successfully shown that two reactionary echo-chambers are in fact reactionary echo-chambers. But I get it, anything to avoid acknowledging or engaging criticisms you’re unable to refute. I have indeed noticed that you’re continually trying to divert attention away from the same questions every time I ask them.
You still haven’t answered how stable anarchy triumphs over authoritarianism after you “burn it all to the ground” (nevermind how you do that in the first place). I’ve, shockingly I know, read Gelderloos before, and he does not answer it either. If it is indeed a baby question, it should have a simple answer.
But if my experience holds, you won’t give one. You’ll deflect again, you’ll say I’m not worth the time, that you’re “not reading all that”, you’ll throw out words like “sea-lioning” and “bad-faith”, you’ll accuse me of being a secret fascist or a Neo-lib or some other go-to slur, you’ll find other links to other texts that wax philosophical or provide short-lived examples while skirting around how short-lived they were, or any other tactic you can use to divert attention from your inability to answer the most basic, fundamental questions of implementation.
The less participation there is the harder it gets to keep the lie.
This is just wildly naive. The less participation the easier you are to manage. Why do you think the GOP goes so hard on voter suppression and gerrymandering?
Their voter suppression is meant to stop from voting a very specific and relative small group of people not comparable to what an organized sabotage of the elections would be.
Gerrymandering is meant to dilute the vote of those who are already voting in favour of one party and its an example of how fallacious your democracy is.
I already admitted that I might be wrong, but something must be done to change this and believing you can fix a rigged game by playing it, is also naive.
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