As bans spread, fluoride in drinking water divides communities across the US

It is a scenario playing out nationwide. From Oregon to Pennsylvania, hundreds of communities have in recent years either stopped adding fluoride to their water supplies or voted to prevent its addition. Supporters of such bans argue that people should be given the freedom of choice. The broad availability of over-the-counter dental products containing the mineral makes it no longer necessary to add to public water supplies, they say. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says that while store-bought products reduce tooth decay, the greatest protection comes when they are used in combination with water fluoridation.

The outcome of an ongoing federal case in California could force the Environmental Protection Agency to create a rule regulating or banning the use of fluoride in drinking water nationwide. In the meantime, the trend is raising alarm bells for public health researchers who worry that, much like vaccines, fluoride may have become a victim of its own success.

The CDC maintains that community water fluoridation is not only safe and effective but also yields significant cost savings in dental treatment. Public health officials say removing fluoride could be particularly harmful to low-income families — for whom drinking water may be the only source of preventive dental care.

“If you have to go out and get care on your own, it’s a whole different ballgame,” said Myron Allukian Jr., a dentist and past president of the American Public Health Association. Millions of people have lived with fluoridated water for years, “and we’ve had no major health problems,” he said. “It’s much easier to prevent a disease than to treat it.”

According to the anti-fluoride group Fluoride Action Network, since 2010, over 240 communities around the world have removed fluoride from their drinking water or decided not to add it.

Bluefalcon,

No, people shouldn’t have the right to choose if fluoride is added to their water. People are stupid. You vote to remove something that will greatly help children that can’t vote. The government’s job, sometimes, is to stop stupid people from hurting others and their selves. That’s the reason you can’t drink raw milk or use lead gas.

bradorsomething,

The raw milk thing is actually part of the reason the FDA was formed!

tal,
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

That’s the reason you can’t drink raw milk or use lead gas.

You can get raw milk if your state allows it. The federal government bans it, but only has regulatory authority over interstate commerce, so it can’t be moved across state boundaries, but you can get it if it’s made in-state.

I mean, I think that you’re mostly aiming to expose yourself to listeria, but if that’s what someone wants…

My guess is that dairy farmers have an interest in promoting it in that if they can sell it, it gives them a market without much competition.

en.wikipedia.org/…/United_States_raw_milk_debate

affiliate,

can we compromise on drinking raw milk with flouride added?

foggy,

Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!

Bluefalcon,

Drinking milk was a bad example. I should have said sell unpasteurized milk. The point I think we both agree is that stupid for people make stupid decisions. Just like I don’t think people can decide about vaccines that have very low risk rates. It effects everyone, not just the idiots.

RememberTheApollo_,

If stupid people want to make stupid decisions, that’s fine. The problem is when they try to take the rest of society down with them via damage or converting others to that stupidity.

Bluefalcon,

That was my badly worded point. Other are effected by a few people with extra time.

Ultragigagigantic,
@Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world avatar

You can drill your own well to get your own water, just like you can have a cow for raw milk.

somethingsnappy,

Well, and TB.

tal,
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

Some of the herd nobly chose to sacrifice itself to improve the genetic resistance of the whole.

Aux,

Of course you can drink raw milk if you want to!

Bluefalcon,

You can also discharge a bullet at your head too

irreticent,

Wow! That escalated quickly.

Bluefalcon,

Guess mods don’t under sarcasm

MonkderDritte, (edited )

Btw, cooking milk destroys some of the good stuff in it.

Edit: Raw milk has proteins which boost immune system and growth (because it’s for baby cows), which break down while cooking.

And yeah, probably don’t drink raw milk in US.

Dkarma,

And all the things that kill you.

MonkderDritte,

Probably a culture and laws difference. Here (swiss) getting raw milk from your local farmer is no problem.

Bluefalcon,

I’m sure small doses of cyanide has benefits too.

RaoulDook,

Yes they should. Ingesting fluoride is bad for you, and it doesn’t help your teeth to drink it. That’s why small children’s toothpaste doesn’t have it, because you can’t trust them not to eat it. It’s only good when applied directly to the teeth, which can be accomplished on a daily basis by using toothpaste with fluoride and/or a mouthwash containing it, both of which you don’t drink.

Fluoride is removed from my drinking water by my reverse-osmosis filtration system, along with all the other contaminants like PFAS and lead. I’ve been drinking fluoride-free water for 10 years, and my teeth are beautiful and healthy. Anyone who drinks bottled water is also probably drinking fluoride-free water since those companies mostly use the same filtration method to produce their bottled water.

Whayle,
Whayle avatar

I know of someone who literally thought toothpaste was meant to be swallowed, and was doing it until told otherwise in their teenage years. They "hated brushing their teeth" as a result, and a dentist told them after finding out what they had been doing.

Custodian1623,

Do you have evidence?

RaoulDook,

Sure, here’s a good article with lots of info.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956646/

Rentlar,

www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/293019/

Link to original article. Cheers to you for citing your sources, but the authors here are massively conflating the effects of industrial fluoride exposure with residential water fluoridation in an attempt to prove a position they began with.

Custodian1623,

thanks

Delta_V,

That’s not a peer reviewed study - its somebody’s editorialized book report.

RaoulDook,

Go ahead and review it then - their sources are cited.

Evidence has been presented, whether or not you agree with what it says is irrelevant.

bastion,

Just let them die then, rather than trying to make them age where they don’t want to.

Bluefalcon,

That is a completely different argument and has nothing to do with the topic.

zenParsnip, (edited )

Where does “no, people don’t have the right to choose if [chemical] is added to their bloodstream, because they are stupid” stop? Who determines when it’s “stupid” not to add a chemical to the water supply, and to whom do they answer? If the voting public decides to override public officials on a matter like this, you’re basically saying they shouldn’t have the “right” to vote the officials out on those grounds. You’re basically saying this is some kind of extraordinary policy matter that obviously needs to be insulated from the kind of democratic review pretty much all other municipal policies are subject to. And we’re talking about dumping a chemical in the water supply as a substitute for having good public health infrastructure in our country.

If you’re a Republican, well, they’re inconsistent, evil psychos, I don’t expect much from them to make sense. But if you’re a Democrat… if you’re a democrat

EDIT no really, explain it to me, don’t just downvote me. Why should a highly technocratic public health policy that achieves only one public health goal, and isn’t even the only way to do it, be beyond democratic review? This literally makes less than no fucking sense. Also, the rules on raw milk and lead in gasoline are also subject to democratic review. They don’t get challenged because there are basically no downsides to those policies and literally the only people who are negatively impacted are people invested in the industries in question. People get iffy about fluoridation because there are corner cases that cause problems for individuals, so it’s actually a public health tradeoff and you can avoid those tradeoffs with different policies (like universal public health care + fluoridation regimes) – ie, you can achieve the benefits of fluoridation without negatively impacting anyone. The cost-benefit ratio of water fluoridation is literally different to those other policies, which is why nobody complains about unleaded gasoline but they do complain about fluoridation in water.

If nothing else, does anything strike you as half-cocked about comparing clean, potable, treated drinking water without fluoride to leaded gasoline? Do you refuse to drink un-fluoridated drinking water because of the permanent and irreversible health effects of being exposed to literally any quantity of unfluoridated potable water?

Bluefalcon,

Unfortunately your point is a false agreement. The chemical in question has been studied for decades and has little to no negative impact on general public. A few people don’t warrant a total ban. Everything will effect someone at some point. It’s science not magic. A better education system and removing pointless arguments ( religion, anti sponsored studies ) would help inform people. I sure most people don’t know fluoride is poisonous but so is vitamin D, C, and E. The dose is so high that you would have to eat it like cady straight.

I’m not antidemocratic, though the “let states decide” movement is making me reevaluate that. I’m more of a “let educated and qualified” people have a high stance then “it’s turn the frogs gay” crowd. It is a difficult conversation but we have to advance as a society. This is not advancing. Also I agree universal healthcare would be a wonderful, but that shouldn’t excuse something that is universal beneficial.

Jarix,

To add to your reply,

If universal health care is the answer to not putting fluoride in the water, you make the universal health care a reality before you get rid of the thing that it replaces. You didn’t get rid of something until you have it covered elsewhere, and even then you need to make sure by giving the new thing time to prove it is as effective as you believe it is going to be before you pull the plug on the thing that is proven to have been effective

Bluefalcon,

Not sure why someone down voted that but I agree. You never remove something until you have a more effective solution in place. That was one of the issues I had with Republicans when it can to the ACA. They destroyed it with nothing to fill the holes. Fucking hate that but I don’t expect anything from them.

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@fedia.io avatar

I am SO tired of being at the mercy of idiots.

Dwayne_Elizondo_Mountain_Dew_Camacho,

“Never Underestimate The Power Of Stupid People In Large Groups” -George Carlin

Somethingcheezie,

“Let’s stop putting something in the water that’s meant to treat us, and give people the freedom to choose,”

Some topics demand freedom of choice and others don’t.

AnUnusualRelic,
@AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

They’re after our precious body fluids.

Have you ever seen a communist drink water, major?

Wav_function,

Thankfully some of us are able to interpret what’s going on correctly.

Loss of essence.

mojo_raisin, (edited )

What makes more sense?

A) Large corporations (not known for their wisdom, concern for our well-being, or compassion) found a profitable way to deal with a hard-to-manage waste stream (from fertilizer production) by convincing government leaders (not known for their scientific understanding or compassion) to buy their waste and dilute it to where it no longer needs to be managed as toxic material?

B) Your government leaders are actually concerned about tooth decay.

Lol downvotes. Really guys? Water fluoridation is the one issue both Democrats and Republicans agree on and are doing the right thing for the people? You’re being lied to, and fiercely defending the ones lying to you.

Luccus, (edited )

I’d love to say something sensible, understandable and concise.

But this post is like someone shouting “WHY DID MATHEMATICIANS MAKE THE √ SYMBOL TICK SHAPED?!”, convinced they’ve found a way to prove that 2+2 is not 4.

There is so much to unpack there. Properly responding to every explicit and implicit grain is like reasoning against a beach.

mojo_raisin,

I’m not sure what you meant to say but it sounded super smart.

Maggoty,

B

B makes more sense unless you think the dental products and all of the dentists are in some kind of conspiracy too.

mojo_raisin,

B makes more sense unless you think the dental products and all of the dentists are in some kind of conspiracy too.

Look into the history of the ADA, good tiimes. Dentists telling us for years that mercury amalgam in our mouths was A-OK too.

I’m not saying fluoride doesn’t make for stronger teeth, I’m saying we should not add drugs to our tap water regardless of any health or safety claims. If you go that route, why not add vitamin C, and some Ozempic?

Count042,

Why don’t you go live in a third world country and help the children there. You’ll come back begging for water fluoridation.

Your opinion is one that only a privileged first worlder could have.

mojo_raisin,

I’ll come back begging for dental care, not drugging of my community’s water supply.

Third world countries have bad teeth because we export processed food to them and they don’t have dental care. Native populations eating ancestral diets don’t have many dental problems.

IamSparticles,

Water fluoridation is one of the most successful and evidence supported public health initiatives in history. It was initiated by dentists, not corporations or government leaders.

mojo_raisin,

How many times have governments touted their own programs as successful and not been quite right? Are you really that easy to propagandize?

I urge you to look a little deeper and use logic. It’s not easy for governments and large companies to put out press releases and bad studies to support their position. It’s never good to add neurotoxins to tap water where dosage is impossible to control and the water is used for far more than tooth care.

Is there no concern about toxic substances building up in the soils in our farms and gardens? What about wildlife that has to deal with our drugged water? Is tooth decay really that important to put other stuff at unknown risk?

_tezz,

I was curious, so I did the research you asked us to do. My best understanding after about 30 minutes is that historically, experiments examining fluoride neurotoxicity involve fluoride levels far exceeding the regular consumption of North America and elsewhere as provided in the water supply, so it’s hard to get an understanding of the possible health effects.

There are more recent studies regarding this, however, that do indicate some level of toxicity to the brain in lower doses. Again though the data seems to conflict at times and requires more study. Here’s a nice link for more reading.

You came in here making conspiratorial accusations about the government and invoked some aetheric “what about the animals” nonsense and provided no material to support your position so idk why you’re confused about how you’re being received here. Fluoride is indeed helpful in preventing tooth decay, so you’re gonna have to do some more work than the tired old “Do your own research.”

mojo_raisin,

…so it’s hard to get an understanding of the possible health effects.

Then why dose an entire population? For tooth decay!

no material to support your position so idk why you’re confused about how you’re being received here

Why do I need material to support the idea that drugging a population through it’s tap water is a bad idea? That should be the starting position, the person claiming it’s a good idea to dose the population’s tap water is the one with something to prove.

_tezz,

You’re claiming it’s bad. If you don’t understand that you need evidence to back up a claim, it will be impossible to argue your point. You’re free to continue shouting into the void if you want, but until you take this at least as seriously as I do (not very I may say, my research was very brief) you’re going to continue getting downvotes. I’m just telling you why here. You sound like a crazy person to the average lurker.

They did in fact prove that fluoride stops dental decay. Now it’s your turn to prove that there’s a negative side effect that outweighs the positive.

Count042,

The method of action of flouride for tooth decay is literally high school chemistry.

You literally could have spent the time you researched your conspiracy theories, and instead learned the general chemistry required to fully understand how fluoride works, and how a bunch of other things worked.

Then you wouldn’t be posting this ignorant conspiracy theory trying and failing at appearing like critical thinking.

This really is at “flat-Earth” levels of willful ignorance.

P.S. If anyone thinks I’m being to harsh, I’ve lived in third world countries, and had to help children with teeth literally rotting in their mouths.

The world ignorant evil monsters like I’m responding to is a fucking dark place. That is where this monster wants to take us back to.

mojo_raisin,

The method of action of flouride for tooth decay is literally high school chemistry.

I’m not saying fluoride isn’t good for teeth, I’m saying don’t put drugs in the tap water.

Learn how to join the right conversation.

afraid_of_zombies,

How many times have governments touted their own programs as successful and not been quite right? Are you really that easy to propagandize?

I don’t know. Maybe 2 or 3 times in human history. Is being wrong about one thing mean you are wrong about everything?

I urge you to look a little deeper and use logic.

I also urge you to the same. You can start by looking at the multiple studies backing up this practice and learning about the logical fallacy of circumstantial ad hominem.

It’s not easy for governments and large companies to put out press releases and bad studies to support their position.

Umm ok

It’s never good to add neurotoxins to tap water

Different dosages different impacts. Water can kill you if you drank enough.

where dosage is impossible to control

Metering pumps are typically what I have seen and used. Pretty easy to control. Basic steps are

If pump is on observe 4-20mA signal from the sensor. Which is usually looped powered 2-wire. If it is too low, then signal contactor to the metering pump while observing. Usually I have done a simple latch circuit with a blackout period for this. Basically the water fluoride live between two control points, a high and a low. Once high is achieved the metering pump is cut off from power. Over time the main pump brings enough new water in that the levelsof fluoride fall to the lower point. At which point the contactor goes in and the metering pump goes on again.

Since you don’t want to add it to still water (you never add a base or acid to still water if you want accurate application) you put the main pump(s) as the interlock. If you are wondering why I don’t use a PID for control on this is because I can’t find a metering pump with large range speed control to make it worth it.

The blackout zones are for sensor problems. Usually a simple rule like “if metering pump has been on and is now off wait three minutes before turning it on again regardless of what sensor says”. It is far easier to go over vs go under so try to bias it one way vs the other.

I guess AMA if you want to know more about this stuff. Been in automation and control for 15 years now.

and the water is used for far more than tooth care.

That’s nice.

Is there no concern about toxic substances building up in the soils in our farms and gardens? What about wildlife that has to deal with our drugged water?

Sure bioaccumulation. Go to the EPA or your state’s DEP and ask them about the research they have done on it. Lots of environmental chemists work researching this topic. It’s a bit anecdotal but every WWTP I have been too, which presumably would have the most of the fluoride, has pretty abundant wildlife. Turns out feces and water makes plants happy.

mojo_raisin,

Different dosages different impacts. Water can kill you if you drank enough.

Ok, so this excuses adding anything to the water doesn’t it? I say we Ozempic because it helps people with diabetes.

Metering pumps are typically what I have seen and used. Pretty easy to control. Basic steps are

I’m not talking about acccurately adding fluoride to water, I’m talking about the impossibility of controlling or knowing the fluoride intake of a person when it’s added to tap water, which is not only consumed directly but also indirectly when things are made using fluoridated water.

Your last argument amounts to “I don’t give a shit about it’s effects on anything else, it helps my teeth”.

afraid_of_zombies,

Ok, so this excuses adding anything to the water doesn’t it? I say we Ozempic because it helps people with diabetes.

non sequitur. Thought you liked logic. A very small percentage of the population is diabetic, all of the population has some level of teeth problems. But I am confident you will bring it up 19 or so more times.

m not talking about acccurately adding fluoride to water, I’m talking about the impossibility of controlling or knowing the fluoride intake of a person when it’s added to tap water, which is not only consumed directly but also indirectly when things are made using fluoridated water.

The amount of water you take in is highly connected to your body weight, one goes up the other goes up. Higher body weight means you need more fluoride to have an issue. The only way to break this is to consume multiple times what the average is for your body weight for long periods of time. So much so I doubt your kidneys would be able to process that much water. But hey you can prove me wrong. Go look up what consumption levels you need for your body weight and how much is in your local supply.

Your last argument amounts to “I don’t give a shit about it’s effects on anything else, it helps my teeth”.

No I mentioned nothing about my teeth. I pointed out a very simple way you could get the information to back up your “argument”. Then I mentioned that the place where we should see the biggest issues, in my limited experience, is where we weren’t.

harmsy,

If I’m remembering correctly, fluoridation and other public health measures were put in place because too many guys were physically unfit for military service.

afraid_of_zombies,

Instead of attacking people and engaging in conspiracy-based thinking where your evidence is vague feelings of untrust why not present solid scientific research that the levels of fluoride that are in the water supply offer no health benefit?

mojo_raisin,

Why should I have to prove to you why not to add drugs to my water?

Will I have to do this to prove why not to add Ozempic to my water?

afraid_of_zombies,

You don’t have to prove shit, your opinion doesn’t matter. I assure you of that. I gave you good advice, if you want to understand the world you live in use logic and study science. If you want to live in fear of your own shadows you are free to do so, just keep listening to Alex Jones and ignore rational thought.

Follow it or not.

mojo_raisin,

So saying that taking drugs, regardless of claims of safety or efficacy should be optional makes me a conspiracy theorist?

If you want to live in fear of your own shadows you are free to do so

I did not give consent to be drugged with fluoride.

afraid_of_zombies,

No spreading conspiracy theories makes you a conspiracy theorist. But to be fair that is really just me using your term. I am not sure if spreading the ideas of others should count. More like conspiracy spreader. Maybe try to come up with something that wasn’t already boring in the 1960s next time.

Can we wrap this up tonight btw? I have to go spread chemtrails tomorrow, makes the frogs gay you see.

mojo_raisin,

And what conspiracy am I spreading exactly?

Glass0448,

Image

Solved it guys, Introducing T-dazzle, a safe fun and natural system to keep your sparklies sparkling. You can even earn discounts on your long term dental checkups by using it.

Got_Bent,

Are we sure these people don’t just want to ban Florida but have a spelling problem?

bastion,

Solid

afraid_of_zombies,

Stupid upcoming second Dark Ages. Things were just starting to get interesting.

Welp, does anyone need good bleeding with leaches and some infected nasty turnip that is all-natural whole food?

UmeU,

This whole anti-fluoride thing is just a psyop brought to us by big toothpaste and the ADA… that’s the real conspiracy, wake up sheeple! /s

KillingTimeItself,

yall talking about fluoride? Out here we’re talking about someone stealing water from us. Because apparently that’s a thing that’s actually genuinely happening out here.

Just don’t look at the part where we’re lowering the water table to irreversible levels, that’s definitely not a problem, we swear.

jkjustjoshing,

We need , it makes your teeth stronger and starts a party in your mouth. Its an aquatic based social media oral experience.

Here’s an informative video explaining the details

nawa,

Was looking for this.

BeautifulMind,
@BeautifulMind@lemmy.world avatar

Fun fact: spreading conspiracy theories about the evils of fluoride in the water (it’s mind control! pollutes our precious bodily fluids!) was one of the talking points that crypto-fascists threw against the wall to see if it would stick- if you recall the line about your “precious bodily fluids” in Dr. Strangelove, that was a nod to that particular vein of conspiracy theory that was making the rounds in the far-loony fringes of what was then the Republican party

nilloc,

I had great teeth as a kid, but then moved out to the boonies with well water, 5-6 years later I started getting cavities (while still getting fluoride at the dentist twice a year). My teeth have been nothing but problems since.

Now our town water refuses to add fluoride and a bunch of my son’s school mates already have fillings in kindergarten.

Somethingcheezie,

My two older kids had fluoride in their city water and youngest never did. Lots cavities in that one kid

ILikeBoobies,

Americans won the battle to bring back measles

Now they’re fighting to bring back tooth decay

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Guys doubling fisting 64oz Big Gulps won that war ages ago

markon,

Reverse osmosis filtered bottled water too

afraid_of_zombies,

Article mentions multiple places in Canada doing the same thing. I am sure you read the article and knew that.

ILikeBoobies,

Did I touch a nerve? I was making a joke

afraid_of_zombies,

Can’t stand a liar.

nomous,

Guess Americans aren’t the only ones that can’t read eh?

ILikeBoobies, (edited )

I suppose, all I saw was that in Canada a self reported study found communities with fluoride thought they weren’t as smart as people in those without thought they were

So I must be illiterate

Emmie, (edited )

Your og comment is one that brings nothing of value except circlejerk. You sound like a redditor

ILikeBoobies,

Thanks friend

nomous,

It’s good you finally read the article though.

ILikeBoobies,

I had read it before, I was just pointing out your claim wasn’t back up by the article since you seemed so triggered over being laughed at

nomous,

Sure you did, I wasn’t the original person who replied to you btw, should try reading usernames too.

ILikeBoobies,

Lol

MapleEngineer,
@MapleEngineer@lemmy.world avatar

We need to stop letting the village idiots make policy.

TheLowestStone,
@TheLowestStone@lemmy.world avatar

We need to stop letting the conservatives make policy.

FTFY

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

That would require a large community effort to resist occupation.

CileTheSane,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

You just repeated what OP said.

DragonTypeWyvern,

Funnily enough, the idiots do have a grain a truth here, that grain just happens to be an example of the internet’s favorite, Dunning-Kruger.

Excess flouride does have profound negative effects on intelligence. Several hundreds times the levels you get positive effects for tooth health from, and thus well beyond the scope of flouridation programs. There are also other notable side effects from flouride toxicity, so it’d be quite noticable.

There are even several regions of America and China where they need deflouridation treatments for ground water, but the conspiracy types never seem to mention those.

They also don’t seem to note that flouride toxicity, like lead toxicity, leads to both decreased intelligence and increased aggression.

How making the working class angry and dumb makes them easier for the owner class to control and profit from never seems to come up.

Veneroso,

Lead exposure also causes reduced intelligence.

Leaded gasoline was still a thing when I was a kid.

Lead paint chips are delicious.

And those Stanley cups that suburbia is raging over, also contains lead.

DragonTypeWyvern,

You should probably read the whole thing, but, you know, the lead, I get it

Veneroso,

Nice. I’m used to reacting to post headlines long since past.

Also lead.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

How making the working class angry and dumb makes them easier for the owner class to control and profit from never seems to come up.

Ask the folks at the Jan 6th riot. Trump played them all like fiddles.

DragonTypeWyvern,

Sure, but I don’t think anyone is accusing Trump of being behind a flouridation conspiracy. It demonstrates rather that angry morons are rather easy to point at the government, which is why the government probably doesn’t want a bunch of angry morons to rule.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t think anyone is accusing Trump of being behind a flouridation conspiracy.

Sure. I’m simply noting that whipping people up into a frenzy or panic is an age old technique for controlling large populations.

It demonstrates rather that angry morons are rather easy to point at the government

Or at this or that ethnic group or religious sect or ideological cohort, sure. You don’t even have to be particularly conservative for this technique to work. Liberals fall for the Immigrant Caravan Invasion and Crime Wave panic stories and Pending Federal Bankruptcy and Communist Invasion stories as easily as any moderate Republican.

the government probably doesn’t want a bunch of angry morons to rule

They do, if they want to export that violence overseas or inflict it on minority groups and women, as a means of social control.

And it isn’t as though state officials are even all that rational. Certainly, Joe Biden’s had no problem perpetuating a genocide overseas, despite his policy whipping up a bonfire of opposition at home and in neighboring regions. Neither do Vladimir Putin or MBS or Narendra Modi seem shy about stoking the fires of bigotry in their own countries, as a means of mobilizing large groups of people into parades of support for their rule.

Angry morons are a great source of cheap activist labor, whether you’re storming the capital on Jan 6th or rallying Hindu nationalists to tear down a 600-year-old mosque in Delhi.

force,

Excess of ANYTHING leads to brain damage or death

intensely_human,

Yes we definitely need to get rid of this democracy thing /s

chatokun,

The first thing is not so much less democracy, but more participation. I’m definitely guilty of this myself, so not trying to be holier than thou preachy. Conservatives have been doing a concerted effort to take over lower level offices as well, school boards, municipal positions, etc. Part of the issue seems ro be the people who want to do this stuff often have an ulterior motive, and people who should probably be in these spots have a lack of interest.

afraid_of_zombies,

Local office is pretty much shit. You get yelled at for whatever the crazies saw on TV last night, you can’t fix anything, and everyone is angry about something.

Never doing it again.

BreakDecks,

The problem with our current democracy is that we haven’t enshrined education as a right. Democracy works great if the population is informed and has critical thinking skills. In America, any stupid idea that becomes popular enough can become the law, because the population is too stupid to make pragmatic, evidence-based decisions.

MapleEngineer,
@MapleEngineer@lemmy.world avatar

The christofascists are trying to destroy democracy. The village idiots are their brown shirts.

afraid_of_zombies,

If you want to protect democracy maybe don’t defend the worst examples of it.

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