I mean, I haven't been happy with democratically elected leaders for my entire life, so I'm used to it by now. I've given up hope. It's actually kinda nice.
Actually yes. If our democracy is so broken that not voting for a piece of shit is considered bad, then anyone who defends it should be banned for life from voting.
But Bidens been what he needed to be: neutral and boring,
So we’re just ignoring his genocidal tendencies? Yeah, y’all ignoring his genocidal tendencies. Can’t wait til that shit comes home to roost for y’all. May the blood you wash your hands in drown you.
Well this is one reason why young voters aren’t taken seriously. They don’t vote or basically waste their vote so no reason to pander or even campaign for their votes.
Voting in a rigged system like this where both parties are just slightly different levels of unacceptably terrible is meaningless anyway. Organizing outside it is the only way there’ll be change.
That was tried in 2016. The DNC’s got too much of a stranglehold-- they’ll just keep putting up malfeasant, genocidal capitalists. There is no alliance in the Democrat party, young or no. Just like the cops, I believe the Democrats are only good for abolition-- not reform.
I’m now convinced that a lot of this is trolling. People who say “Well I’m Muslim and it bothers me that Biden supports Israel so I won’t vote for him” have to be completely out of touch with reality or are completely fake. Same thing here–not voting for Biden ensures that Trump wins, and your theoretical third-party person has no chance of doing anything except dilute the vote.
So? I’m really not buying this narrative or these polls anymore. The respondents are either morons or plants.
Yeah, the people who don’t want to vote for the fascist sending bombs to an ethnostate to kill their friends and families? They’re the out of touch morons.
One is a neoliberal that embraces a political philosophy where you turn a blind eye to suffering abroad for stability and prosperity at home.
The other is a wannabe dictator that repeatedly echos hitler and will lead to civil war where your neighbors, family, and yourself are put at risk of death and the destruction of your livelyhood.
One of them is more imminently dangerous to the voters who are tasked with casting votes.
If there were a viable third option I would vote for them. Being moral in this situation means Trump would get elected and my family would be victims of political violence while that same apathetic blind eye turns away from us. It’s a personal threat to my physical safety if Trump is elected.
Who says I give a fuck about humanity? We’ve shown ourselves time and time again to do the selfish thing to fuck people over. Guess what? I’m one of them. My selfish thing is “I don’t want to be murdered by terrorists.” There are terrorists over there and there are terrorists next door. Which one is imminently a threat to me? Not the one that is across the planet. But the second Trump gets power, he has said he will not prosecute terrorists.
Ugh, another “Humans are inherently bad” edgelord projecting their solipsism and historical illiteracy for all to see. If humans are so bad, why are you so concerned with sparing yourself, or with who dies for that matter? No, your faux-world weary nihilism is just a paper-thin cover for your atavistic selfishness. You don’t want to have to think about the mountain of skulls we were born on top of, you just want to go back to consuming cheap treats while the real terrorists do the killing for you, and you can’t even be bothered to construct more than the most half-assed epistemology to soothe the little part of you that knows you’re choosing to be a monster.
Fascism isn’t a risk or a possibility, it’s fucking here. It’s been here, except it’s not evenly distributed. It will continue to be unevenly distributed even after it engulfs you, and you will look back and see your former cohort making excuses and reassuring themselves that there was nothing poor little them could have done to save you. First they came for the communists, then they came for the immigrants, then they came for the lgbtq, now they’re coming for the Palestinians. You can either cower and smugly support their genocides until they come for you too, or you can realize that no individual ever makes a difference, and throw your weight in with the mass of humanity who you currently oppose with your dead-end ideological lethargy. “Oh you have to vote for the blue genocider and not the red one”, how about fuck that, both of those ghouls and the empire they serve must die so that humanity can live.
if you really want to make the sane and realistic choice at this juncture in history, then it’s time to grow the fuck up and become a communist.
I’m not asking you to be a superhero who ends all war, I’m telling you that when you support Joe Biden you’re actively supporting a current ongoing genocide that he’s facilitating. It’s not that I’m criticizing you for not doing enough for others, I’m criticizing you for actively aiding a genocide. All you have to do is stop doing that.
People who decline to aid and abet a genocide are a better people than people who agree to help aid and abet that genocide.
I don’t support his actions.
But I have to vote against trump or else my family and myself will be dragged from our home and shot by radicals.
A vote for anyone but Biden is a vote for Trump in my state.
I’m working to move away from these radicals but it’s expensive and time consuming and I likely will not be able to do that before the 24 election
Voting for someone is literally supporting his actions.
You’ll be complicit in a genocide for the rest of your life. I recognize that this won’t sway you but I want you to know what good people are going to think of you going forward.
In the coming days, and for the rest of your life; when you close your eyes, may the voices of those whose blood you’ve decided to wash your hands in devil you from your rest, and chase you through the emptied catacombs of your mind until the sun comes back up.
I was going to vote for Biden but now I won’t because you acted with such brutal incivility. This is the most important election of our lives; democracy itself is on the ballot and you are turning people away from the polls before they’ve even opened. You are handing Trump the keys to the White House; you are ushering in the dark tide of fascism. Enjoy the next election, you have made it our last.
Do you think Biden doing the same shit as Trump but under the banner of civil rights and progressivism could be deletrious to the goals of those movements here?
Admittedly he did throw $4B at green hydrogen as we fall behind Namibia and Mongolia in green energy production. 😒
If there were a viable third option I would vote for them. Being moral in this situation means Trump would get elected and my family would be victims of political violence while that same apathetic blind eye turns away from us. It’s a personal threat to my physical safety if Trump is elected.
I politically align with Repugnicans by about 2%, Democrats by about 10%. I don’t want either. But I only have 1/300,000,000 shares of power in America to enact my will and it is “i don’t want to be dragged from my home and shot”. And yes, that does mean I am voting in the interest of myself not being dragged from my home and shot while the president actively throws bombs on a warzone where that happens to other people on the other side of the planet. It fucking sucks. But being moral here will result in my fucking death.
I’m not voting for either which means I’m actually voting for both of them which means I’m legally voting twice.
Why do libs insist on only voting once when they could vote for neither and vote twice. Why are they neglecting their right to vote by only voting half as much as if they didn’t vote for anybody.
People who say “Well I’m Muslim and it bothers me that Biden supports Israel so I won’t vote for him” have to be completely out of touch with reality or are completely fake
“If you aren’t voting for me, you’re not Muslim, Jack”
“I cannot conceive of the idea that people can dislike my preferred political choice for any valid reason. Not picking my preferred choice would mean a thing I don’t prefer would happen. Nobody could possibly want that.”
I love that this is how libs are going to deal with their deeply unpopular genocidaire, just pretend he’s actually popular and fine. Real winning strategy there, I hope democracy isn’t on the line.
Healthy democracy you’ve got here, where people who have real complaints about the parties of capital and genocide are dismissed as “trolls.”
How about “fuck you,” supporting israel in any manner should should be automatic disqualification from any possible democratic process. If you don’t accept that you don’t deserve any of the rights described in the bill of rights.
Has anyone done some actual digging to find if the people the reporter talked to are real? Or is this just trying to make Biden’s campaign and prospects at a 2nd term worse than it is?
You all do realize polls are ALWAYS going to be skewed going forward since they get their info from people who respond to unknown numbers right? My phone literally filters unknown numbers out so I don’t get them unless it’s ABSOLUTELY important, so I’ll never end up in a poll. For all we know if every American was forced to answer a poll Biden could be much higher in the polls than what news orgs say he is. But they don’t have a poll answered by all ≈330 million Americans. Not to mention polls can change rapidly at any time, something could happen in the months leading to election day that could swing voters more towards Biden.
I am going off what NBC has reported and let’s be honest, they probably went to HARO* for a lot of it. It doesn’t matter where I got it from I gotta go off the reporting.
If Biden is really doing bad in internal polling the Dems message will skew towards it being a “vote for freedom” or not so I don’t know. I DON’T KNOW GOD DAMNIT. And that’s what frightens me. We could very much end up voting for Trump, and the only certainty is if he wins, is its over.
Cision Help a Reporter Out, basically a place where you can pay for “expert perspective” aka supporting viewpoints for your journalism without bothering to do the research
Fuck Biden. Fuck Trump too, but fuck Biden first and foremost. There will never be a day that I support the genocidal segregationist that thinks he can put delimiters on whether or not I’m Black; especially not after he put half my family in prison with his crime bill horseshit, and is now trying to kill the rest of them with his shit economy.
Death to the Democrats, death to the Republicans, death to the Empire.
Oh joy…. Here come the Biden cock suckers getting upset that younger generation won’t just shut up and vote blue no matter who….
Lol. Give us policy. We will no longer keep voting for the lesser of two evils.
I don’t care if you think not voting for Biden is voting for facism. Voting for Biden is a vote for right of center neoliberal politicians who takes legal bribes from corporations.
A vote for Biden tucking literally means, “Nothing with fundamentally change.” He said it himself.
I don’t care if you think not voting for Biden is voting for facism. Voting for Biden is a vote for right of center neoliberal politicians who takes legal bribes from corporations.
This is the one that's getting me.
As as one of the younger millennials, I also don't really like Biden - in truth, the Democratic Party in the US is more akin to center-right than actual left, but it's waaaaaaay more left than what the other party, the GOP, is. However, the unfortunate and real truth of the US today is that your vote isn't for who you actually want - nowadays, you're voting against what you don't want. A large majority of people (myself included) didn't even want Biden in office, but we wanted Trump in office less than we wanted Biden. Same with Hillary in 2016 - my vote for Hillary wasn't for Hillary (full disclosure, I was a Bernie bro), but rather it was for against Trump. To not vote at all is, for all intents and purposes, helping vote in a person who wants to turn America into a corpofascist dictatorship.
Lol. Give us policy. We will no longer keep voting for the lesser of two evils.
There's a quote that comes to mind from The Witcher series: "Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference. The degree is arbitrary. The definition’s blurred. If I’m to choose between one evil and another… I’d rather not choose at all." This was said by Geralt when choosing between having to kill a person he knows and sort-of cares about to placate an angry mob, or helping the dickhead wizard out and killing the village, he chose... neither. And he ended up with the literal worst of both worlds by remaining neutral; the person he knew died, and he killed almost the entirety of the village before getting merc'd by a pitchfork and becoming the Butcher of Blaviken.
I bring this up because it's a perfect example of what not choosing can sometimes be: the greatest evil. Choose what more aligns with your morals and ideas, but recognize that if you do not speak up now for a step towards good because it's not perfect, then you are part of the evil.
Of all the Democratic politicians you could raise this complaint about pretty legitimately, Biden’s not one. This is a pretty good overview of the substantive things he’s done. Obama did a better job of branding his accomplishments, but Biden hasn’t been just fucking off doing nothing.
I don’t care if you think not voting for Biden is voting for facism.
I don’t care if you don’t care. Not voting for Biden is making it more likely that Trump wins, which is, quite literally, fascism. That remains true even if you don’t like it.
Voting for Biden is a vote for right of center neoliberal politicians who takes legal bribes from corporations.
Accurate yes. It’s a goddamned shame, I 100% agree. Letting democracy collapse in the US completely won’t help though. Right? On that we can agree? Maybe not.
I feel like people from countries where they just recently got free elections can explain this better. I see all this conversation (entitlement? propaganda? cluelessness? The OP article is definitely in the “propaganda” category) from people who are talking about how not liking something Biden did, translates into deciding not to vote for Biden. To someone coming from some situation where voting is connected to your survival and safety, as opposed to the modern-day US where it’s more like a fashion statement, that seems like just pure careless idiocy.
And, as far as the 2024 election, it is connected to your survival. Usually in the US it’s not. This time it is.
Along the same lines, fielding Biden knowing that he is polling quite low against Trump is making it more likely that Trump wins. There are 49 million registered Democrats. There are almost certainly qualified, principled, charismatic people in that group that would both energize the core and appeal to progressives, independents, and swing voters.
If the Democrats' stubborn pride allows a Trump victory, then we should lay the responsibility at the feet of those who were best positioned to provide a viable candidate who could win.
I mean, I do kind of agree with you. Biden’s old and a sort of “acceptable centrist” candidate. I miss Bernie. I’m still voting for Biden, because Trump is the end of the goddamned world.
He's polling neck and neck with Trump, some polls have him trailing in key states. It's early, granted, but his support of Israel's approach to Palestine suggests that many progressives are at best uncomfortable with him.
Primaries are still coming up, no? Why not push for someone better? You still end up in the same place if you're unsuccessful.
The Democrats have a pretty good process going of pushing out any non-pro-establishment candidates, which leaves the field pretty much full of wet towels. Biden is above the average by quite a bit among the wet towels, in my opinion. Who do you see who could replace him? I’m genuinely asking.
I'm registered independent so I don't get a say. I can dig into the options, but last time I might have been onboard with Yang; he seemed sincere. Sanders, though he has issues, would have been a much better choice as well.
If the party elite are blocking meaningful representation within, that's a problem.
Yeah. Sanders was the most popular politician in America for years after the election. Don’t get me started about it lol. If the argument is “we need someone who’s a realistic candidate in the general election,” they had that on a silver platter, and they stabbed him in the back and threw him in the trash.
If the party elite are blocking meaningful representation within, that’s a problem.
It is, in fact, a massive problem. Let’s keep all the candidates down who people actually like, because the stuff everyone likes tends to be not the favorite thing of all our rich friends. Oh no! Why are we unpopular. Don’t people know we’re better than the Republicans?
Fuckin assholes. I mean, they are better than the Republicans, but ass cancer is better than the Republicans.
And that's the problem I have. If the DNC is willing to suppress their own members, why should I encourage that behavior by doing as I"m told because they're too blind or too arrogant to listen? Trump is the worst. But he's a product of a broken system that democrats are all too happy to perpetuate.
If Trump wins, I blame his fascist followers. But I would be lying if I said that I didn't also blame the DNC for colluding with the GOP in the first place.
Yeah. If someone told me that they were working in politics to try to get a non-shitty bunch of people in charge (in or out of the Democratic party) I’d applaud the hell out of it. I was registered as Libertarian or Green Party for basically all my young adult life. If someone’s not doing that, though, and also not voting for the Democrats, then I would blame that person too if Trump wins (in addition to the fascists and the DNC).
Yup and they will always shame the voters they need, the people who are correct, over the failures of the party. They can barely respond to the ridiculous issues the GOP are attracting voters with, they’ll say the issues aren’t relevant, while they lose over them and have nothing to say. Suggest they need to do better and you’re the problem. It’s 2016 all over again, Trump controlling their fears with his insane ramblings, any concerns from the left that the party should do better dismissed and shamed. It’s just so pathetic to see it happening like this again.
Oh joy…. Here come the Biden cock suckers getting upset that younger generation won’t just shut up and vote blue no matter who….
Lol. Give us policy. We will no longer keep voting for the lesser of two evils.
I don’t care if you think not voting for Biden is voting for facism. Voting for Biden is a vote for right of center neoliberal politicians who takes legal bribes from corporations.
A vote for Biden tucking literally means, “Nothing with fundamentally change.” He said it himself.
Biden has literally had a ton of policy victories that the average person should like. If you can’t find any, it’s only because you haven’t looked. No seriously go look. I’m not saying he’s wonderful, great or perfect. But if you think the likely alternative is going to be better than him. You’re only fooling yourself.
I’m not going to say none of it is but I think you really over estimate how much.
Biden honestly has a singularly outsided role in the fact that we have marriage equality at all. More or less because Mr gaffe sputtered it out in the open. It basically forced the more hesitant and reticent hand of Obama in pursuing the policy. Who had traditionally been opposed whenever publicly asked.
The NLRB Union decision under his administration administration was quite earth-shattering. A sea change. This sort of thing most of us thought we would never see again and would only ever read about in history books over the new deal.
Not to mention his push for public infrastructure. At its highest point ever since, practically the new deal. Works that will benefit everyone and our desperately needed. As well as his American rescue plan and many of the other things that he pushed for, which as you said tended to undo a lot of the damage Trump did.
What the fuck are you talking about? You claimed the photo op he did was better than actual support, you were shown how it absolutely wasn’t, and now you’re calling someone a segregationist for…not wanting to vote for a segregationist? Absolute bird brain. No, actually my beautiful bird is much smarter than that.
Someone that just asked a simple question with the intention of being educated, and not to be immediately pushed into some political group the poster looks down on, and where the intention was nothing more but: you bad, we good. That’s just completely ridiculous, without knowing anything about a) my intention and b) my background.
“See this is the problem with liberals…” Doesn’t sound like a first reply from a civil person, to just a simple question I asked, which I asked due to my limited knowledge about current American politics. So you already lost it there.
I didn’t call you a segregationist because of your link. You’re twisting my words in every reply you make. If people like you dominate the political discussions in your country, then I can say for sure that your country has gone down the drain, because all levels of civil conversation have disappeared if you immediately get pushed a label onto you, where the intention is to demonize the person or a group of persons, and any other continuation of the conversation ends in more demonizing and insults. For sure, this is regardless of who’s in power or whether I’m a liberal, left or right. (For the record, I’m consistently more of a centrist in European political terms)
By the way, your insults don’t mean anything to me. They just read like words coming from a frustrated nobody. I clarified myself because I noticed I’m getting mostly downvotes for some posts, and in that way it appears that your hate speech is becoming the truth for some. So I took the liberty to clarify myself and hopefully get around your bullshit.
Anyways, I hope you have a good day and you become happier in life.
You mean like when he won the primary against Bernie, even though Bernie was actually more popular? The primary is only part of the picture–the other is the party apparatchik that gets its pick no matter what.
I don't understand what you're proposing Trump would do that would fail. Giving Israel more money, weapons and the go-ahead to 100% kill everyone (which is NOT what the Biden admin has done) or shelling Gaza from boats and bombing them ourselves has nothing to do with Trump personally being intelligent. In fact, it's what he would surely do since he's a moron.
Biden is playing a delicate game where he supports Israel without provoking all of the other countries in that region or alienating allies.
Trump wouldn’t give a shit. That could be disastrous for Israel, because contrary to the propaganda they aren’t actually strong enough to fight everyone everywhere all at once. Not even with Trump’s help. Also, he’s just as likely to get bored or give up on Israel when things get difficult.
Well, I think avoiding widespread war in the ME is best for everyone. Trump would have the US do whatever Putin tells him, which would be whatever is the worst for NATO and the best for Russia, with no regard to what's best for the region, world or Palestinians.
So better to vote in the guy who will make the US fascist, make it worse for its citizens, and most likely bully and potentially cause more death with its huge army in order to possibly maybe potentially help another country by fucking up?
Even if you’re not a US citizen, that’s some insane mental gymnastics to do in order to somehow be braindead about this genocide being Biden’s fault and try to frame it as if nobody else would or could have let this go as far as it has if they were the US President. And if you are a US citizen living in the US, you do realize you would be living in a Trump-run America? Legitimately, are you okay with actually making another country’s situation maybe slightly better at the expense of your own living conditions??
I don’t think they said anything about who they’re voting for in 2024, you’re just being an ass.
Plus, their vote only matters if they live in a purple state, otherwise the backwards way the US conducts elections means their vote is worthless.
I live in a blue state. I could vote for Trump and rest assured it doesn’t even matter. I could vote for Mickey Mouse, it doesn’t matter, the state electorate goes Blue. In a way, this makes me lucky, because I don’t have to vote for the sack of worthless crap Biden is.
Have no idea what was said because mod removed it. My experience is that a lot of people are reactionaries who only understand part of any given problem. They get into a huff because they make this ignorance part of their identity.
If you think presidential elections are the ones that matter for an individual to take part in, you’re already disenfranchising yourself better than any gaslighting about Democrats could ever.
Joe’s not good, but not voting for him IS a vote for fascism. Period. Republicans don’t need good opposition to never the less be completely undeserving. Since we LITERALLY CANNOT pick outside of the two choices, you literally have a forced choice between fascism and shitty Democrats.
Buddy, at a presidential level, it doesn’t matter if an individual votes red or blue in VT. It goes Blue. Their impact is utterly irrelevant.
And the DNC will never run a decent candidate with any intent to make fundamental changes to benefit the common person because they can always fall back on the kind of thinking you’re showing here to ensure nothing will change. And they have no motivation to, either. They maintain power just fine by doing the bare minimum of not being quite as repugnant as the Republicans, while still being utter bastards.
Anyway, this kind of attitude is exactly what makes the vote blue no matter who people insufferable fools. Neither I nor the first person you replied to said anything about who their voting for, they simply expressed displeasure with utter dogshit choices we have. Fuck, it seems we even agree that Biden sucks. And yet you lept on them to call em a fascist for not liking Biden.
Another person in this thread said I should be literally crucified for not liking Biden.
It’s hard to understand why some people might be turned off by that kind of thinking, isn’t it?
It’s hard to understand why some people might be turned off by that kind of thinking, isn’t it?
Honestly it’s giving the same cultist energy that red MAGAts fling around. We were never kidding when we started throwing around BlueMAGA as a perjorative.
You are, of course, free not to vote for him. If you really are a queer communist though, then good fuckin’ luck with what’s in store for you 2024-2028 if Trump wins.
What about what’s in store for me if Trump loses? The rightwing still control the Supreme Court and can still win a majority in Congress and will still control my state on all three levels of government. Biden isn’t protecting me from any of that shit. That would violate the norms!
Meanwhile, he’s supporting an ongoing genocide!
If I wanted to cast a vote that would matter in 2024 I’d cast a 9mm ballot with my temple as the ballot box.
“What about what’s in store for me if Hitler loses? The Nazis still control Brest, Lwow, and Kaunas, and Churchill isn’t protecting me from any of that shit. Meanwhile, he’s an open racist who supports atrocities in the colonies.”
It's a rational decision. Voting against Biden (and discouraging people about Biden online constantly) helps get Trump elected, which means you're voting for 2 genocides since Trump is clearly planning to greatly harm Central and Southern Americans in the US.
Trump is clearly planning to greatly harm Central and Southern Americans in the US
And Palestinians (he was the one that moved the embassy to Jerusalem, remember)
And US journalists who report on corruption in Saudi Arabia
And Ukrainians
And anyone in government who won’t support his crimes
And ordinary-person election workers who won’t support his crimes
And via his supporters, literally anyone in or out of government who actively opposes his crimes, with a pretty broad definition of “opposes”
And women who have medical problems during a pregnancy
And I’m sure lots of other people who don’t spring to mind right at the moment. But surely that should be enough of a list. 2 Gaza-size genocides as the final outcome of a second Trump term would mean we got very very lucky.
Yes, I do understand your argument. You don’t need to repeat it. I’m saying that advancing that argument is actively hostile to your own individual safety.
I know two separate people whose life situations changed dramatically because of Obama-era immigration policies. If they were hostile to Obama because of drone strikes and warrantless wiretapping, I’d point out to them that yes, fair enough, but they could also be deported right now in a Bush or Romney America if things had gone a little differently. And Trump is much, much worse than Bush or Romney. He’s dangerous to people who aren’t even queer or communist.
I think you’re being similarly foolish and contrarian about it. But of course you’re free to think whatever you want, I won’t keep going back and forth with you about it.
Are you under the impression that Trump doesn’t support this type of genocide in a much bigger way than Biden? Or that it’s uncertain whether life will be better for you under Biden than under a second Trump term? If so, I think we’ve hit the root of our disagreement.
Trump already ran concentration camps within the United States during his first term, and he’s already pledged to root out the communists, Marxists, fascists, and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country.
That’s you. He means you. And he’s literally dead serious about it, and he and his cohort have a detailed plan for how to get it done. I’m not by any means saying that you should vote for Biden only for your own safety as some sort of selfish gesture and betray all these people who would somehow be safer under Trump. I’m saying that not voting for Biden endangers quite a lot of people’s safety, inside and outside the US, but yes, also very specifically yours.
Yup. Do you think I’m selfish enough to vote for genocide just because Biden’s genocide doesn’t target people like me?
I will not vote for genocide. This is not some radical stance, it’s the bare fucking minimum. And you know what? My hope is, by pressuring Biden’s campaign on this issue, Biden could reconsider his stance on Gaza to get reelected. That’s how politics works!
And if he refuses to reconsider, even at the cost of his own reelection, then I have zero confidence he’d protect me in his next four years anyway. Why should he? When my state starts rounding up people on HRT into conversion therapy concentration camps, Biden can do literally nothing about it and you’ll still vote for his successor anyway because she’s the lesser evil.
Yes, and Biden is still running those concentration camps!
Do you think I’m selfish enough to vote for genocide just because Biden’s genocide doesn’t target people like me?
I think you’re being incredibly selfish. I was friends with a guy who, if the timing had been different, could have literally been one of those kids in cages on the southern border. In addition to support for all kinds of anti-Islamic, anti-queer, and anti-immigrant policies which produced real harm in the real world, Trump started the family separation policy. Biden ended it, and on February 2nd 2021 he created a task force to try to find children who’d been separated from their parents and reunite them. Are you really trying to say that because ICE is still operating and still runs detention centers, “nothing fundamentally changed”?
I will not vote for genocide. This is not some radical stance, it’s the bare fucking minimum. And you know what? My hope is, by pressuring Biden’s campaign on this issue, Biden could reconsider his stance on Gaza to get reelected. That’s how politics works!
Yeah, I get this. I’m not trying to say that Biden should get a free pass on anything he wants to do. I’m saying there’s a concerted propaganda effort afoot at the moment to try to come up with reasons for people not to vote for Biden, when Trump is the end of the fuckin’ world. It’s like if your house is burning down and you’re running around trying to save the artwork instead of the children.
Are you genuinely trying to work for justice with all these things you’re saying? Or just making a theatrical stand for the people in Gaza who’ve been dying by the thousands all through the Obama, Trump, and Biden administrations, while nothing fundamentally changed? (edit: … while ignoring the cost side of the equation of what you’re saying, in the real world, for every single other marginalized or vulnerable person who isn’t in Gaza?)
Yeah. The consequences we’re seeing for pregnant women now, all the people who died of COVID who didn’t need to, and all those little Hispanic kids, all add up to absolutely nothing compared with what he wants to do in a second term.
I’m saying that advancing that argument is actively hostile to your own individual safety.
And your argument seems to be that you shouldn’t participate unless at least one truly perfect candidate is available. But not participating means that the worse of the two evils wins. So you’re, unironically, hostile to your own individual safety.
Trump would gladly send troops over to assist in the genocide. Biden is doing too little to address it and being too supportive of it. There’s a massive difference. It’s going to happen regardless of which of them wins. It will be better under Biden 100%. To claim otherwise would be feigning accelerationism. Hoping to get millions more killed so that something might change here at home.
If we’re at the point where we’re playing an ethics logic puzzle between different levels of genocide then it’s time to do something different!
If you vote for Biden, you are voting for genocide. You are endorsing children being blown apart and buried under rubble. You are endorsing doctors and nurses and journalists being sniped and bombed. You are endorsing the use of starvation as a weapon. You are sending a message to the government that you want genocide and you will support more genocide, and that’s exactly what you’ll get under Biden.
America is an abomination. At this point you don’t even get to vote for the lesser of two evils. You just vote for different branding.
Cringing as I quote a fictitious asshole who has a point. “Your boos mean nothing. I’ve seen what makes you cheer.”
Your criticisms are hollow. ML kvetching over Biden’s shit take. Calling him a monster for saying the wrong thing over something he really couldn’t impact much personally. While hand waving away the millions oppressed and slaughtered by ML governments. It’s hypocritical.
There’s almost no nation in the world that isn’t an abomination. Especially the biggest ones. China, India, Russia and yes the US are all abominations.
Everyone needs better. And yeah Biden is definitely flawed. Despite being one of the best presidents the US has had in nearly 40 years. Ironically you of all people should appreciate that he singularly is one of the biggest reasons we have marriage equality. His administrations NLRB decisions truly a sea change. Pushed to invest in national infrastructure that everyone needs in a scale not really seen since the new deal. But yeah, old man tone deaf, gotta go.
It’s honestly too late right now to start pushing for better this cycle. They are seriously ready to put in place a fascist dictator. I know ML are 100% on board with dictators. But I think you would be concerned by the fascism part. Right now we need to survive and hold on to any type of democracy or republic we can. After 2024 we can focus on better younger Democrat candidates for 2028. But we have to remember good change comes incrementally and slowly with compromise.
And don’t get me wrong. I’m open to any ideas for positive change you have that don’t involve magical thinking. Such as what if everyone did the thing that everyone doesn’t do. Or the typical conflict resolution ML employ. You get a gulag and you get a gulag disappearing and re-education for you and for you as well! Yadda yadda.
Marxist Leninist. Most of those we mistakenly call Communist simply because Lenin and co chose it as the name for their authoritarian party. They realistically reject a lot of the basis of communism. And similarly, Marxist leninists reject a good chunk of the philosophy of Karl Marx. Misinterpreting the intellectual philosophical statement of a dictatorship of the proletariat. Something which on it’s face is contradictory and oxymoronic. As being a literal commandment to them. From a man who knew all too well the problems of actual dictatorial power and had spent most of his life fleeing from country to country trying to avoid it. Marxist Leninist are to Marxism what evangelicals today are to Christianity.
I can’t think right now of the actual country the .ML domain refers to. But Lemmy.ML and Lemmygrad.ML both use it as a reference to that ideology.
No worries. There are a lot who are who don’t share the ideology. It’s one of the oldest servers after all. And for a long time was also one of the more default servers. The original and still main coders IIRC behind Lemmy also share the ideology. Starting the project after largely being run off of reddit.
Marxist leninists reject a good chunk of the philosophy of Karl Marx.
Because Marx is a racist antisemite whose writing is dripping with speciesism. He was right about one thing and that was his economics, I severely distrust anyone who listens to him for anything other than that, especially not when there’s a treasure trove of other writings.
Really if they called themselves what they are (Scientific Socialists) they would be way more popular among the average American. The reason they don’t is because of the nostalgia of MLs turning one of the biggest shithole countries into a global superpower overnight.
And if you don’t vote for Biden, then you are voting for children in cages and people being pushed under buoys in rivers as they try to escape whatever hellhole they left.
LOL you’re delusional. Biden is provided typical support for the country in the way of supplies and money. Trump would send the actual US military over.
I was going to vote for Biden but now I won’t because you acted with such brutal incivility. This is the most important election of our lives; democracy itself is on the ballot and you are turning people away from the polls before they’ve even opened. You are handing Trump the keys to the White House; you are ushering in the dark tide of fascism. Enjoy the next election, you have made it our last.
I was going to vote for Biden but now I won’t because you acted with such brutal incivility. This is the most important election of our lives; democracy itself is on the ballot and you are turning people away from the polls before they’ve even opened. You are handing Trump the keys to the White House; you are ushering in the dark tide of fascism. Enjoy the next election, you have made it our last.
I was going to vote for Biden but now I won’t because you acted with such brutal incivility. This is the most important election of our lives; democracy itself is on the ballot and you are turning people away from the polls before they’ve even opened. You are handing Trump the keys to the White House; you are ushering in the dark tide of fascism. Enjoy the next election, you have made it our last.
What’s the matter, peckerwood; don’t like you guys’s favorite thought-terminators getting flippantly flung back in your face? Gee, who’d have fucking thought?
Understand, if the choice is between genocidal crypto-fascism and genocidal fascism-obvious, I have no issue with watching your country die instead. Better we go out than the whole rest of the world under our boot. I would rather die, and I would rather we as a collective fell, than ever support another fascist for any fucking reason.
I don’t tend to let people insult me then attempt to influence me. Learn a little about the art of persuasion and try again. Also, get a grip. This isn’t Facebook or Reddit. Try not to act like those people.
As a proud Biden supporter, I know two things: 1. 2024 is the most important election of our lives and we must do anything and everything to maximize the voter turnout for Biden, even If it means reaching out to our political enemies and making unsavory compromises; and 2. If you don’t immediately agree to vote for Biden then you’re just a fucking [slur, slur, slur] and I’m going to go out of my way to antagonize and alienate you and anyone else who may be reading these threads – that’s called the art of persuasion!
2024 is the most important election of our lives and we must do anything and everything to maximize the voter turnout for Biden, even If it means reaching out to our political enemies and making unsavory compromises;
Just like 2020, 2016, 2012, 2008, and 2004 before it
Like narc-jacketing isn’t a tried and true tactic of redditors. Like this “vote blue no matter who” horseshit you peddle wasn’t hand-crafted by OccupyDemocrats eight years ago. If you don’t sit your hypocritical ass down and get out of my inbox with your settler peckerwoodery… See, you liberal invertebrates miss this little point every single fucking time. You come to people who have NO INTEREST in backing your genocidal-assed party, or even your genocidal-assed nation, really; and then Demand our support. It’s you who owes the ‘persuasion’ in the first place.
And you are failing. Fascism comes to y’alls cute little gated neighborhoods because of you and Everyone who acts like you. I hope I live long enough to watch the settler house of cards collapse on itself. I wonder if you’re even aware enough to realize how hard of a non-starter supporting your party became with the GENOCIDE that Joe decided to full-throatedly back. Like… Do you realize what I see supporting your party as equivalent to anymore with that? Do you even want to know?
Here’s the thing. There’s a big brigade thing going on right now where I’m apparently the worst human who’s ever lived for asking a question. But, one thing that nobody seems to be able to do is tell me what the alternative is to voting Biden. Nobody can answer that question–it’s just “you’re stupid because Biden” and that’s the end of it. So, I’m really asking–what is the proposed alternative action?
To expand on my seething hot take here the use of LGBTQ+ people & symbols as imperialist mascots by the United States, Europeans, and Israel is an international disaster. Similar to the way Zionists abuse conscientious Jews with their rhetoric
I’ll rephrase: each time it has been attempted it wasn’t really a communist revolution, but rather a group responsible for regime change using the term as they appoint a new elite.
even liberal and conservative historians agree that the damn commies were actual communists: behind closed doors they didn’t talk about machiavellian power grabs - they used the same historical materialist framework they would use in public. (for example Kotkin is adamant about this in his Stalin bio. Communists believed in communism. Shocker.)
If you just want power you dont have to pretend to be socialist. See Pinochet, among many examples. Pretending to be socialist would just be unnecessary extra work and having the most powerful countries as enemies instead of friends.
That’s not true, and it shows that you obviously haven’t investigated those revolutions or the theory behind them.
The entire populace would need to see the world differently than they do now.
Yes. This issue is dealt with through communist theory. A revolution is a process. It doesn’t end at a “change of regime.”
Its true that class and money are not immediately abolished, because they can’t be immediately abolished. The abolition of class and momey is a theoretical endpoint of a long period of transition because
The entire populace would need to see the world differently than they do now.
More or less as you put it.
You are saying that because the process isn’t automatic, and people now do not already see the world that way, that the process should never begin
You should investigate the actual revolutions you’re talking about, and read some of the basic theories behind them. If you are still against them, then at lesst you will actually know what you’re talking about, and your critiques would be worth hearing
You are saying that because the process isn’t automatic, and people now do not already see the world that way, that the process should never begin
No, I’m saying that it hasn’t happened yet because humans as a whole aren’t ready for it. Maybe in 150-200 years we’ll be in a different place. Remember that when people said “Please wear a mask, my grandmother has cancer” about 50% of the populace yelled “FUCK YOUR GRANDMOTHER MY LIBERTIES ARE THE ONLY THINGS THAT MATTER.” With people like that, you can’t really have communism.
No, I’m saying that it hasn’t happened yet because humans as a whole aren’t ready for it.
Which is what you’re wrong about, because there are nations right now engaged in revolution. The largest nation in earth is currently involved in the most successful revolutionary project yet, which began back in 1949.
You’re not wrong that the revolutionary potential in the imperial core is low for a number of factors. But that’s not the world.
You also said
each time it has been attempted it wasn’t really a communist revolution
Which is not true and was more what i was talking about.
I already knew you were saying that. You’re wrong. If you want to talk about communism, you should investigate it first because you don’t know what you’re talking about
michael-laugh theres no personal attack in anything i said. You just don’t know what you’re talking about in terms of any of thise revolutions. Seems like you don’t even know what the internets favorite logic nerd term means either
That’s the part that makes it personal. Notable that you’ve still offered nothing in the way of your perceived correction. It stops at “you’re wrong” as if that were how conversations operate. If you believe I’m wrong, why not try to convince me?
That’s not a personal attack. A personal attack would be saying your a dumb reddit-brained smuglord. And an ad hominem would be saying you’re wrong because youre a dumb reddit-brained smuglord.
I didnt stop at saying your wrong. I said you should investigate the people and revolutions you’re talking about, because if you did investigate you would know you’re wrong. That’s why i said you don’t know what you’re talking about, because no one could have actually read about the 1917 revolution, the Chinese Revolution, or the Cuban revolution and think that they are not communist revolutions, or just “dressed up in the clothes of communism”
If you believe I’m wrong, why not try to convince me?
If you believe you’re right, why aren’t you trying to convincing me? michael-laugh
You’re the one who made an assertion that is obvioulsy untrue to anyone who knows about those subjects. You made these obviously false assertions without any evidence whatsoever, but somehow the burden of proof for what you said is on me.
Selected Works of Mao Tse-tung OPPOSE BOOK WORSHIP
May 1930 I. NO INVESTIGATION, NO RIGHT TO SPEAK
Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it. Isn’t that too harsh? Not in the least. When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense. Talking nonsense solves no problems, as everyone knows, so why is it unjust to deprive you of the right to speak? Quite a few comrades always keep their eyes shut and talk nonsense, and for a Communist that is disgraceful. How can a Communist keep his eyes shut and talk nonsense?
Nah. This is a circle jerk. I say a thing and then the reactionaries descend to tell me that I’m wrong. Yet nobody has anything to offer beyond “you’re stupid”.
The fun for you really is the ability to tell others they are wrong. Then you’re not willing to help others learn things you think should. You must be great at parties.
I’ll rephrase: each time it has been attempted it wasn’t really a banning, but rather a group responsible for userbase change using the term as they appoint a new banned user.
Oh, you must have missed my comment then. Here you go:
During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum
If they just wanted power, they could have easily joined the very powerful repressive governments that ruled at the time. Castro could have signed on with Batista’s regime. Mao could have joined the ruling KMT. Instead, they risked their lives doing the much harder and more dangerous work of going against the US empire and it’s puppet states.
During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum
If they just wanted power, they could have easily joined the very powerful repressive governments that ruled at the time. Castro could have signed on with Batista’s regime. Mao could have joined the ruling KMT. Instead, they risked their lives doing the much harder and more dangerous work of going against the US empire and it’s puppet states.
You’re not being brigaded, I literally browse All Comments & All Posts (I have blocked a lot of communities). I don’t have any games on my phone I like to post in random comments sections/replies all over the internet and read a lot.
Choosing to vote for, campaign for, run candidates within, or form a political coalition with a party, those are all things you have to weigh differently. Walking away from a party is a valid move. Half of the country doesn’t vote for either candidate. Why try to work with people who oppose your political goals on every level and will never give you access to the donor warchest even if you win a primary?
Why vote for someone who paints a target on minorities and anyone to the left of Adolf Hitler? This is my hottest take.
Some people argue you should vote for Trump because he’s an isolationist or something, but that’s complete nonsense, he’s the one who murdered Gen Soleimani
I’m gonna be honest, I don’t think the race for president is an important place to invest political energy, of which I have a finite amount. Local agitation & elections are more flexible honestly. Stop a city council from destroying some ecosystem further. Elect a lady who hates Jeff Bezos (idk if this made any difference but it took little energy to do my part).
I don’t think I actually care who wins ❓ they subsequently either ride the wave of shit, or they wipe out. Regardless of what people think the kinder Zionist Sen. Sanders would have accomplished in the general election (when the dems would have assuredly pulled funding), being in the Oval Office itself would be a completely different story. Nixon wasn’t enough of a ghoul for Washington half of the time, mein gott.
Dunno, it’s a year away, why call my shot now when I don’t have all the information yet? But if I voted today and it was Biden v Trump and no competitive 3rd party, it would be an easy blank on the presidential section.
But that’s a hypothetical, we’ll see if Biden aligns more with me in voting day, I can only assume he will double down on trying to seduce disenfranchised Republicans so I’m not hopeful.
As much as I actually hate to say this because it's the reality of the US, the support of Israel genociding the Hamas would've happened regardless of whomever was President. The US has given a ton of support to Israel in the past and we're considered good allies with them, so we would have probably let the genocide slide no matter what.
Do you think Trump wouldn't be for this or something? Or Hillary? Don't go all "gEnOcIdEr JoE" because you think this would've only happened with Biden - this would've happened because we are America.
I believe he would have responded roughly the same.
I also believe he would have fumbled the delicate balance Biden is trying to strike, where he has been able to protect and support Israel without provoking a wider conflict. Trump isn’t exactly a strategic statesman. Under Trump, Israel would have found itself facing total isolation from the West and a rapidly escalating conflict with all of its neighbors in the region. Whether that would result in Israel backing down with their tail between their legs or WW3 is hard to say.
I’m not voting for Trump, though. I don’t want either Biden or Trump. I want to kill myself. At least that way my vote counts.
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