In some queer spaces, people speak of running away to ‘better countries’ when things become really bad but (1) things are also bad in many of those countries (2) I don’t think all of you will legally or financially be able to go to those countries. The idea that fascism is an immigration hop away downplays how relentless fascism is, and how difficult immigration is
The idea that those other countries want queer American refugees is also laughable: many of these ‘nice white countries’ (that’s really what people mean when they speak of running away) already reject people with autism diagnoses, mental health issues, and other ableist things like that. Oh, they’re also not very nice to refugees. What is everyone smoking?
I think the average American’s understanding of long term visas is poor. Very often when I say it’s hard to get a visa to live in Europe, people think it doesn’t apply to them because they’re American. It doesn’t work that way! If you’re a passport-owning American, you may be better off than someone from a developing country BUT you still have to (1) find a job (there aren’t many) (2) enrol in school or (3) marry someone. That’s about all your options. Digital nomad visas are unreliable
@skinnylatte the average American's understanding of immigration is so wildly incorrect it’s almost like fantasy black comedy. The extent to which even well intentioned and more well read folks internalize the right-wing propaganda of "it's so easy to get here" and then project that forward onto their own expected travels is hard to grasp even after a decade here.
@skinnylatte Plus, a lot of those countries are also moving towards fascism. In Germany, people are also kidding themselves with the running away fantasies ... where to? How would they get there?
If you truly need to explore this option: your best bet is ‘getting a European visa because you have documented heritage there’ and ‘getting a skilled migrant visa to Canada / Aus / NZ’ (most of these visas require college degrees AND an English test, which is actually quite hard for English speakers to pass because they’re so BS and technical) and even then, no guarantees those places you run to won’t also do a fascism or some form of it!
@skinnylatte For many of us who are watching the global rise in popularity of apartheid and fascism, the idea is just to find someplace that's significantly less likely to do that in our lifetimes.
I spoke with a friend in his 80s last year, who escaped Nazism and Soviet occupation as a young boy. He said to me, he didn't worry about America going full fascist in a decade because he'd be dead. (Sadly, he's already been proved right.)
@skinnylatte@VestigialLung Went to Aus in 2002 and was smitten, until I found out at age 40 (then!) I was TOO OLD to be considered for residency.
Israel is my only real option, which isn't much of an option. I love visiting but living there, with the religious nuts and actual fascists running everything? Nope. Not now anyway.
@VestigialLung School in Norway or Sweden or Finland could be an option. They have many post graduate programs in English. Low tuition compared to here. Figuring how one would live is another thing. But even up with the cost of a blue state living expenditure.
@VestigialLung The Netherlands has a visa that allows one to move there and set up a business. The French and Germans have a blue card visa. Sadly, I know all of this because so many friends around the world have all had to escape various forms of oppression in recent times.
I’ll say tho, that moving because you need to be away for a bit is totally valid. If you don’t have generational wealth but have a college degree: save up enough money, enrol in a masters program in English in Sweden, Germany, Finland. They are cheapish compared to the US. See if you like it. If you’re young, working holiday visa in Aus / NZ / UK. Remember to contribute to whatever society you end up in, if you’re lucky enough to actually leave, even for a bit. But know that fascism IS global
None of this is replacement for ‘get a passport and talk to a lawyer’. Especially if you’re in a red state, it’s urgent. But I’d just like folks to know that immigration is work that will take up some of your time, and definitely money.
We're currently discussing options for emigration to potential countries that are unlikely to be dragged into the next world war. And are also livable. And have decent visa arrangements for us. And...
No, we're not about to leave. But we're starting to research.
@jens My theory is that many Americans who are thinking of leaving also think that they can go somewhere and just not care about the local fascist movements because it isn’t American. Many of them are also optimizing for fewer guns in general. But yeah, there aren’t many places to go.
@skinnylatte@jens plus, American politics overflows to other countries. American money is pushing even worse fascism in other countries, and the best guarantee there won't be a Pinochet in your new country is to vote and be politically involved in the USA.
Update: read all of the replies here by Europeans and people who have moved there with their warnings about what’s actually happening, and how you really won’t really avoid fascism!
@skinnylatte Moving to slavic-speaking countries/Eastern Europe is also not the best option. Learning a language for native English speakers is hard, but people are usually willing to work with you, even if they have just a faint idea of what you're trying to say. 😅
Can't say for the rest of Eastern Europe, but in the ex-Yugoslav area, local nationalism is a significantly bigger factor than outright fascism, even than racism. It's far from good, though.
@skinnylatte Speaking as a Finn, Finland is getting bad. Our current reicht-wing government is LITERALLY infused with people who would lick Nazi memorabilia if they thought it would turn them into certain leader. It is SO BAD. SO VERY BAD and they are MAKING VERY BAD DECISIONS right now.
On top of that, country's system is not good for trans people (yet; might not be for a while, see above).
@Skiriki thanks for the update. sad to hear. i really loved finland when i was there. the no of comments i am getting here about what it's like in europe currently should be read and reviewed by every american who thinks 'i'm sure it's better there'. often times i think they just don't know.
@skinnylatte It is a nice country, it is a nice place to visit, but right now staying here is not the greatest. While support for LGBTQ+ people among general population is great... well. gestures at the aforementioned government It is full of people who are very anti.
@skinnylatte@Skiriki add France to the list of “not very nice to live” and “probably impossible to get visa for” - our current ultra right wing leader got photographed in an actual Nazi era VW beetle doing what really looks like a Nazi salute - and she has a more than even chance to be our next president.
@skinnylatte the “life in the UK” test is obscure racist pub quiz that has nothing to do with life in the UK. Unless you’re doing racist pub quiz night. All but one of my native UK friends failed the practice test on my phone.
@skinnylatte So I actually did this. Contacted an immigration attorney the day the SCOTUS plans for Roe leaked that May and he had me in Vancouver by January. I didn’t even trust Cali to protect me longer term.
The Eng test is easy for native speakers. So easy I could read the French version and I’ve never taken French. It’s middle school.
I’ve posted about this/have helped others. A lot of rightfully worried LBGTQ+ families on discord but the Americans who follow through? Healthcare workers
@JSto Not saying it’s not possible, when push comes to shove people will look for options, just like all of the refugees from elsewhere. But that there’s a lot of people who really haven’t planned but assume they can go, and they should plan for sure.
@skinnylatte there are enough things that are misinfo on your thread—just to be blunt about it
if Americans are looking at Canada they need to act in the next two years before the window closes. First step/hard to skip is talk to an immigration attorney. Usually costs about $500 CAD so less in USD (and is applied to any future work) to see what’s possible/strategize
by the time it’s obvious one needs choices it will be too late
the rich aren’t messing around: they all have dual citizenship.
@JSto I’m not convinced Canada is that far from the fascist timeline, and even more skeptical about Europe. But I’m an immigrant who has lived in most of those countries (except Canada, so maybe I don’t know their process too well). My info is certainly true tho for all those countries other than Canada. I’ll amend and let people know to speak to an immigration attorney.
@skinnylatte Had a skilled migrant visa in the Netherlands, for a few years. In the last week, it's come out that the police are systematically harrassing climate protesters, by targetting their children. And the courts are colluding with them.
Now I'm in Spain, waiting to find out whether we're about to get a fascist government here.
When we first moved here, I was looking at the timeline to citizenship. Now I'm holding onto my NZ passport for dear life, because that's exactly what it could mean.
Europe isn't a safe haven. It's where fascism was exported from, and it's back on the rise here.
@skinnylatte I'm still mad about not having to take an English test to get permanent residence in the UK.
We came over from the US (which HAS NO OFFICIAL LANGUAGE) and they just waived the requirement for my wife and for me. My friend came over from New Delhi (where ENGLISH IS AN OFFICIAL LANGUAGE) but they kept asking him where he learned English (see OFFICIAL LANGUAGE, above) and then told him his job AS A COPYWRITER didn't use English enough to waive the exam.
He passed, naturally, but the whole situation was infuriating.
@skinnylatte a non-western friend was super offended with me when I told him marrying his Portuguese gf and getting a spousal visa was the easiest way to get a UK visa. This was pre-brexit and they got married. I assume they both applied for settled status as they qualified for that post brexit. He was also resentful that I had a Tier 1 self certified (and no longer available) that was a super pain to get. I moved back to Canada. TotallyNormalIsland(tm) isn’t my problem and I had an easy out
@skinnylatte I'm actually astounded people think it's that easy. I've been wanting to emigrate since I was in my teens and as someone whose degree is in art knew I had little chance unless I won the lottery or became a very famous artist.
Personal experience: it took me 11 years in the US for my immigration situation to become stable. That was with advanced education, and good jobs with solid income.
Right now I'm trying to move back to Europe, and, even with being a citizen there, it's tricky and lengthy, especially since I'm trying to move to a different state from the one where I have citizenship (my wife and I are from different states.)
@jbqueru Hugs to another multi-national couple with multiple immigrantion challenges. My Malaysian French wife and I are midway through our US journey, and yeah, it’s super hard.
@skinnylatte Thanks for the hugs, and hugs back to both of you.
We're on the privileged side, we're both both EU and US citizens, and the process to move is more about bureaucracy than it is about establishing a legal right, with the added benefit of not being at risk if we stay a bit longer in the US. But our situation shows that, even when it's about as simple as it can be, it's still not something that happens by snapping fingers (and it will cost us tens of thousands).
@skinnylatte technically Canada will accept refugees. https://petitions.ourcommons.ca/en/Petition/Details?Petition=e-4268 but for Americans it hinges on proving there is no safe haven elsewhere in their country of origin. States with safe haven laws preventing forced return to hostile states thus make refugee or asylum in Canada basically impossible for Americans. UK LGBTQIAs though … and per the link in 2000, was the first asylum grant for gender identity.
@skinnylatte when people bring this up I like to remind them that countries will reject you for just Being Fat. you can be a perfectly healthy person, even a person with credentials their country needs, and they will deny you or deport you (or at least try to) because you're A Fat and therefore obviously a drain on their socialized medicine. which, given the BMI of ~70% of the US, means we're effectively never going to be able to permanently move to some imagined utopia.
@bluestocking@skinnylatte we got through half of the highly-skilled visa process for NZ in the 2000s - we got an invitation to apply for the visa, and had to drop it because my BMI would never be low enough.
The only reason I was able to emigrate to Europe at all was because I was married to a German and, well... would not recommend.
@skinnylatte it seems like at best an option for people who are privileged, and the people who are most vulnerable (say, homeless LGBT teenagers) will absolutely be unable to access such a thing.
@Zeb_Larson Even moving states is hard for the vulnerable. But I’m also not convinced that it’s easy for privileged Americans to also be able to leave (unless they’re super privileged in which case moving anywhere isn’t an issue at all; or some of the fascism here or anywhere probably won’t impact them as much)
@skinnylatte This is why I get tired of "just move to a blue state" rhetoric, because that's not how you contain bigotry and fascism. My go-to example is Reconstruction: in 1877, it ends. By the 1890s, Jim Crow was being enacted across the South, and by 1908 you've got race riots in Springfield, Illinois.
@skinnylatte@Zeb_Larson I've come to a similar conclusion - I'm a relatively privileged US passport holder, and because of my age (I'm 38!) I don't do well in most of the points systems. I wouldn't come close to fulfilling most golden visa requirements either
@skinnylatte It's true that the list of possibilities is very short. I moved to Germany:
People are garbage towards queer people everywhere, but it seems better in Germany (I'm outside Berlin). Went to Japan recently and it was worse. (Japan's trans laws also suck)
Mostly no guns, so crazy people can't as easily enforce their beliefs with death.
Autistic people are allowed here. This is a problem with a lot of other countries though, as you noted.
@skinnylatte In 2002 in Australia I worked with a software developer who was gay who left from the US because George W Bush was elected. His partner had to leave Australia every 90 days because he could only get a visitor visa. It took several years before they both became allowed to work & stay in Australia. Immigration to Australia has become more difficult since then. They had been badly discriminated against in New York & moved to California because of that.
@skinnylatte immigration is also very, very difficult to do if you aren't white in the first place, theres a huge double standard of POC immigrants being seen as deplorable and inhuman, but white immigrants are seen as normal and even praised historically
trying to escape a country is even more difficult because of the rampant racism that is rooted in our society and i wish more people would talk about this, especially POC
going to canada only individually holds off the fascism for a while, it eventually happens here too. the federal Conservative Party and other reactionary provincial parties are already talking about "parental rights" and removing gender affirming health care.
just like the weather, there also isn't a magical wall at the border which stops fascism. this country's first prime minister was a proto-nazi.
@skinnylatte Totally true .. legal immigration is VERY DIFFICULT, you don't just "hop into another country and you'll find job and legal stay in a snap". Immigration processes are always long, complex, often requiring quite some money and they often take long time. And yeah (1) is pretty true also "going into a different place" is never an easy thing to adapt to all different life/etc. there's that too.
@skinnylatte Furthermore, if the US goes fascist then it may desert or pressurise NATO to its bidding. If the US were to withdraw from NATO, or worse even ally with Putin's Russia, then that would leave only Britain (American nukes) and France as nuclear weapons states guarding the remaining liberal democracies, which in reality is not much and would leave Europe and its allies exposed.
So the liberal world order could give way to a fascist one much more quickly. At the moment it's largely held in place by American backing.
So countries could easily be bullied to the far right in an attempt to appease others.
(note, I'm not saying liberals or indeed those countries are in any way great now, but highlighting how things could get worse)
@alastair yes, and there's also the element of logistics. many countries around the world won't open bank accounts for Americans, because they have to do reporting to the US for taxes. if the US federal govt is super fascist, they could still conceivably use those instruments to impact those who have left.
@skinnylatte thank you. I’m an immigrant to the US and those types of comments always make me feel so upset and so painfully aware of the privileges that I will never get to experience or understand.
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