marcprecipice,
@marcprecipice@xoxo.zone avatar

“‘There tends to be a willingness to agree that robot driving will make public transportation obsolete,’ said Norton, on how politicians address robotaxis. Not so much because people actually believe that, but because politicians try to appeal to suburban voters — and it’s easier to promise investment in roads rather than public transit, he said.” https://missionlocal.org/2023/10/autonomous-vehicles-threaten-to-worsen-congestion-experts-say/

janxdevil,
@janxdevil@sfba.social avatar

@marcprecipice @MLNow I’m a software engineer employed by a robot taxi company and I’m intimately familiar with the tech. If there is something about it that makes it unsuitable for use in a public transit system, then I’d really like somebody to explain it to me. I cannot see it.

marcprecipice,
@marcprecipice@xoxo.zone avatar

@janxdevil @MLNow Sure. Cars, self-driving or otherwise, are space- and resource-inefficient. A vehicle transporting a single person (the most common car use) takes up much more space, is much harder on roads, creates much more traffic danger, and requires more infrastructure than a bus or train carrying many people. Investment in public transport also lessens storage cost for cars, which helps improve density in cities, reducing climate harms.

marcprecipice,
@marcprecipice@xoxo.zone avatar

@janxdevil @MLNow I would much rather see huge investment in public transit for longer trips, paired with extensive support for active transportation (walking/biking/scooters) for shorter trips. The amount of public space and tax dollars we invest in cars could be reclaimed for much better and more climate-friendly uses.

marcprecipice,
@marcprecipice@xoxo.zone avatar

@janxdevil @MLNow I imagine you might have seen pictures like this before, showing space utilization for equivalent groups of people by transit method. I think this is a big part of the argument. Self-driving cars arguably worsen the situation by making driving easier and offloading parking responsibility to the cab company, as argued in the ML piece.

marcprecipice,
@marcprecipice@xoxo.zone avatar
benjamingeer,
@benjamingeer@zirk.us avatar

@marcprecipice @janxdevil @MLNow Only 15-20% of a car's energy use provides momentum, the rest is wasted: https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/transportation-and-energy/typical-car-use/

Because of traffic congestion in cities, it's often faster to cycle, or even to walk, than to drive: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/cities-where-it-s-faster-to-walk-than-drive/

Cars spend a lot of their time looking for parking spaces: https://transfersmagazine.org/magazine-article/issue-4/how-much-traffic-is-cruising-for-parking/

benjamingeer,
@benjamingeer@zirk.us avatar

@marcprecipice @janxdevil @MLNow The most energy-efficient mode of urban transport is rail (e.g. a metro/subway); it's more efficient than cars by an order of magnitude. https://conservancy.umn.edu/handle/11299/157092

Rail can also move a higher volume of people faster than any form of road transport, including buses, because trains can travel much faster, carry many more passengers per vehicle, and aren't slowed down by road traffic (J.H. Crawford, Carfree Cities, 2002).

benjamingeer,
@benjamingeer@zirk.us avatar

@marcprecipice @janxdevil @MLNow In Paris, the average speed of a car is 12.4 km/h, while the metro travels at an average speed of 30-40 km/h. https://www.paris.fr/pages/le-bilan-des-deplacements-a-paris-en-2022-24072

Only 6% of trips within Paris are by car, while 20% are by metro, and 40% are on foot. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transports_%C3%A0_Paris

In Copenhagen, cycling accounts for 49 % of all commuter trips, and bikes outnumber cars. https://www.visitcopenhagen.com/copenhagen/activities/copenhagens-bike-culture

CelloMomOnCars,
@CelloMomOnCars@mastodon.social avatar

@benjamingeer @marcprecipice @janxdevil @MLNow

Would you know of a good webcam on which to observe?

Haven't been in Paris since Anne Hidalgo started doing her thing.

benjamingeer,
@benjamingeer@zirk.us avatar

@CelloMomOnCars I haven't seen any, and I think it's difficult to film the street in France, because of privacy legislation. Either you have to film from a great height, or you need software that blurs people's faces.

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