@Roadwarrior29 I think (I hope) that it'll be different this election, because the Indy movement here is so much stronger, and the obvious disbenefits of the union have been thrown into sharper relief. It doesn't mean we'll get more representation at Westmonster though, as you're well aware with SNP.
@MadeyeTheCarnaptious@Roadwarrior29
We're catching you up! And a lot more quickly than I thought.
The same attitude is starting - and escalating quite quickly - to be directed at us (see the shit we've been getting about wanting to control our own justice system). The great thing about the Indy movement here - and we're republicating the Indy movement in Scotland quite closely in this regard - is that the treatment of Wales currently and historically is being recognised in real time.
I was already pretty "indy" (for Scotland, Wales and the pre-Norman English "kingdoms" ) before moving to Wales. I've only become more so. One of the biggest drivers is the lack of respect for the devolved administrations from HMG. All legitimately elected bodies deserve respect, irrespective of whether you agree with their politics or not. (whether the people in those bodies individually deserve respect is another story)
@Henrysbridge@MadeyeTheCarnaptious@Roadwarrior29 Same. The idea that a country's own people are unable to decide its current or future direction is so laughably colonial it could only have been thought up by the English.
As you say, the merits or otherwise of politicians within that framework is a different matter.
@fkamiah17@Henrysbridge@MadeyeTheCarnaptious These, for me, are the only pertinent "cut through the bullshit" questions, three simple questions, equally applying to Wales.
1 Is the union voluntary.
2 Can Scotland leave the union.
3 How does Scotland leave.
IN A NUTSHELL.
@Deembe@fkamiah17@Henrysbridge@MadeyeTheCarnaptious Actually no, the questions I've asked must be considered and addressed before any others. The basic "right to leave and how to leave" must take precedence.
@Roadwarrior29@MadeyeTheCarnaptious@fkamiah17@Henrysbridge Unashamedly so, EU union and UK union but both by choice for their benefits and not by dictat. I understand and I'm sympathetic to the choice argument but not to uninformed populism driven choice without clarity of consequences.
@Roadwarrior29@MadeyeTheCarnaptious@fkamiah17@Henrysbridge No, I'm English but feel free to learn from our mistakes. We allowed nationalistic populism to both pose and decide a question rather than applying consideration of the consequences beforehand.
@fkamiah17@Roadwarrior29@MadeyeTheCarnaptious@Henrysbridge Not at all and with the same consequences, stoking social division, trashing the economy and condemning parliament to indulge in constitutional navel gazing instead of addressing the real priorities.
@Deembe@Roadwarrior29@MadeyeTheCarnaptious@Henrysbridge Clearly you didn't understand, so let me say it again more slowly.
Your tedious myopic arguments are what's boring. They bear no relationship to devolution, or independence, and if you had a scintilla of respect for other people on this thread, you'd have held your tongue about five posts ago.
Byeeeee.
@Deembe@MadeyeTheCarnaptious@fkamiah17@Henrysbridge And that attitude right there, is your problem and that of many of your countrymen and women, jeez, what a brass neck. Worry about your own country, England, you have more than enough to concern you without concerning yourself with my country.
@Deembe@Henrysbridge@MadeyeTheCarnaptious@fkamiah17@Roadwarrior29 But Scotland chose to remain within the EU, so your argument falls down because clearly however closely Scotland had considered the benefits etc. didn’t make an iota of difference because they don’t have the right to make independent choices. If they did, they’d be in a bigger union than the UK right now.
@seb321@Henrysbridge@MadeyeTheCarnaptious@fkamiah17@Roadwarrior29 If you keep on with the division then York didn't vote to leave either. Your counter argument fails though because it was the United Kingdom that was the EU member not the individual countries within.
We have a fight brewing. Labour, the LibDums and the Conservatives in Westminster all think the ‘regions’ have become uppity and will legislate to reduce them.
@Wen@Henrysbridge@MadeyeTheCarnaptious@Roadwarrior29 I've seen some reporting that Kieth is already planning to reduce devolutionary powers. He's so high on his own supply he's got no idea what he's messing with. Add that to the faint but still there rumblings of Free The North and the Cornish Independence movement - not to mention people like Andy Burnham - and it just seems like a can of worms he shouldn't open if he wants to get anything done in his first term.
@Thebratdragon But he'll be First Minister, so I don't exactly know how that would work. Starmer can't change that and trying would put him on a head-on collision course with Welsh Labour.
@Thebratdragon Crucially that was before the election though. A sitting PM can't unseat a sitting FM. At least I don't think so. It wouldn't surprise me if he tried but it would be - at best - extremely inadvisable to mess that directly with the fundamentals of devolution.
@Thebratdragon Do you really think Starmer would spend considerable Parliamentary time on something so dangerous and devisive? It's one thing to purge candidates when you're LOTO, quite another to attempt to remove an elected FM from No. 10.
@MissMeow The Welsh and Scottish governments have been bringing it up for quite a while now - Drakeford went to a "Wales In Europe" conference in France last year. We just need to ditch the English.
@fkamiah17 well, sadly, wales also voted to leave. but i wonder how many people are regretting that decision now and wish someone would finally speak up.
@MissMeow By a very small margin. There's anecdata that suggests it would have been much closer (and perhaps a Remain victory) except for the English immigrants. I know plenty of Brexit monkeys round here though, so how accurate that is is highly debatable. None of the ones who were very vocal about it until about 2 years ago seem to talk about it that much these days, and believe me I ask them.
@fkamiah17 what really annoyed me about the referendum was that british people who lived abroad for more than ten years were allowed to vote in it while i, who had lived here for more than ten years by than wasn't.
@MissMeow The whole thing was a shitshow. No one who has resided permanently overseas should get a vote in anything that happens here and the inverse is true for anyone who's lived here for a settled period of time. Personally I think it was a travesty that 16 and 17yos weren't allowed to have a say in a future that fundamentally affects them more than the rest of us.
@fkamiah17@MissMeow I disagree on those living overseas not being allowed a vote specifically over Brexit because it did impact them.
I was living in France (not by choice) at the time and a wild amount of Brits there wanted Brexit and then immediately complained when they got it because they were being treated like non EU citizens (extra paperwork, reduction in pension, having to apply for right to stay, etc).
It was a shit show though. And younger people should have been allowed to vote.
@alexisbushnell@MissMeow I don't know whether you meant to but you've just made my point for me quite forcefully. I'm sorry you got caught up in a situation that was unjust for you - and I'm certain there were lots of others like you - but that shouldn't be extrapolated so that (mostly) old people who are (mostly) more racist and isolationist get what is an outsized say in what happens here.
I'm afraid you won't change my mind on that.
But you're right - it was an absolute shitshow.
@fkamiah17@MissMeow I don't think they should have been prevented from voting - I think more people should have been allowed to vote, as someone else said the EU residents in the UK should have been allowed a vote, 16 & 17 year olds, etc. And the remain campaign shouldn't have been so bloody shit.
I just think removing the right to vote from people who don't agree with our views is a really bad idea and doesn't go anywhere good.
@alexisbushnell@MissMeow You're misunderstanding me. The right to vote from overseas should be surrendered entirely once you've lived in a second country for a settled period of time, not just from those who "disagree". That's the whole point. Their views are immaterial nationally, purely because they have NO SAY.
I 100% on 16/17yos and on residents - I said so earlier.
Every UK resident of more than x years standing should vote here. Those overseas should not, regardless of their views.
@MissMeow@fkamiah17 they thought they were special cos they're white, middle class and British so the rules wouldn't be applied to them.
The amount of conversations I heard from Brits in France who don't speak French and won't try about how disgraceful it is that immigrants in the UK don't speak English was ridiculous. And the shock when they were impacted by exactly what they voted for would have been laughable if the situation wasn't so awful.
@alexisbushnell@MissMeow In the ten years I lived overseas - mostly in Europe - I lost count of how many times I heard exactly those views, long before Brexit was even a thing, and that's why I think they shouldn't vote here. On anything. I'd think the same if they were Remain voters. It just isn't anything to do with them.
A respected Oxford University academic (geography professor Danny Dorling) researched the Welsh vote and found the Leave vote in Wales was affected by English retirees 🤬
@TCMuffin@fkamiah17@MissMeow I'm not sure we wriggle off the hook that easily. Swansea West - where I live, lots of middle-class suburbs and students - voted 60/40 Remain, but Swansea East - far fewer of the above - went 70/30 Leave. Precious few retirement cottages there.
I will never fully understand or accept how Wales voted, but I don't think we should be looking for excuses for it.
@sourdust@TCMuffin@MissMeow I don't think either Jayne or I were looking for excuses. There's no "one answer fits all" for how the Welsh voters chose to kick themselves so decidedly in the balls.
@fkamiah17@TCMuffin@MissMeow No, and that's partly my point. It's just that the tone of that piece feels rather like "It wasn't our fault it was those nasty English immigrants" and I'm not sure that's healthy.
@sourdust@TCMuffin@MissMeow
That's a fair point. It's hardly a refutation of the overall result if we say "everything would have been ok if it weren't for those pesky immigrants" post facto.
@TCMuffin@fkamiah17@MissMeow To those (and I agree with you there were many) who wanted the "bloody nose", I would exasperatedly point out that there had just been a bloody GENERAL ELECTION. 🤦
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