To those who say "capitalism doesn't force people to do anything. They have free will", if someone put a gun to the head of someone, would that not be a use of force? And how would you feel if the gunman said "I'm not forcing you to do anything. You have the freewill not to give me your money." But if you don't then you'll die, just like the worker will die if they don't do what the capitalist says.
@Radical_EgoCom Also the social destitution the propaganda of capitalism has instilled in most citizens. Americans’ human worth is tied, entirely, to their work. Healthcare, retirement, disability, housing, food, everything. If you are disabled, stay at home parent, laid off, retired, your fellow citizens treat you like you are expendable & worthless. As we see with the decisions around Covid.
@Radical_EgoCom Many don’t want poor, disabled, poc, immigrants, even if they work, to have access to any services or aid. And they treat you as such. I think a lot of Americans don’t realize how truly internally racist & misogynist their fellow citizens really are. Trump is exposing a lot of that. I think a lot of Americans don’t know how racist, misogynist, & capitalized they are themselves. Americans, maybe just western colonizers, struggle with self awareness & accountability
@Radical_EgoCom I think UBI will be a really hard sell because Americans are conditioned to despise government aid. You should have heard my home nurses arguments about why I don’t deserve care because I’m disabled & on Medicaid & that’s a socialism & it’s my fault. It’s deranged.
@DEDGirl@Radical_EgoCom The way to get even anti-government-aid Americans to support at least a basic UBI is to frame it as a social dividend for the common inheritance of all, land and natural resources. Land and natural resources are not the fruits of anyone's labor, so there is no property claim to them. In a sense, everyone has an equal right to them. A UBI can be justified as the dividend that people receive for their share of natural resources and land used up in production
@jlou@DEDGirl@Radical_EgoCom America is so capitalistic Nestle has claimed the water rights in CA & stolen millions of gallons. A lot of our citizens are delusional enough to think that’s making America great again. We have groomed people to think they too can be a millionaire by hitting oil in their backyard, or bottling air like in the Lorax. Hopefully they won’t matter & we’ll just have to laugh at them whinging about it.
@DEDGirl For me, Nestle buying up water storage rights in CA convinced me once and for all that climate change was inevitable. The act showed perfectly what Nestle saw coming (degradation of the snow pack as a water source) and what they saw their correct path of action as (treat climate change as a disruption one can take advantage of for short term gains.) I couldn’t imagine a corporation who would ultimately act any differently.
@Radical_EgoCom At best, this is an argument for a UBI not against capitalism. At worst, this elevated notion of voluntariness would render practically all contracts involuntary, so it is unusable.
There are stronger arguments against capitalism even when it is fully voluntary such as inalienability of responsible agency.
@apodoxus But nobody consents to being born under postcapitalism either. While it might be a valid objection, I don't see how the proposed alternative resolves it, and it isn't clear how it could be resolved @Radical_EgoCom
@jlou@apodoxus
That's like someone arguing that slavery is non-consensual by pointing out that no one chooses to be born in slavery, and then someone counting it by saying "Well, no one chooses to be born free either". When people advocate for post capitalism they're usually advocating for some specific form of socialism that is voluntary in nature, so someone being forced to exist in a completely voluntary society would not be the same thing as someone being forced to exist under capitalism.
@Radical_EgoCom@apodoxus There is a meaningful sense of voluntariness that one can say capitalist employment is more voluntary than slavery. There is an element of continuous consent to capitalist employment that slavery lacks.
The argument against capitalism is people have more freedom, which is not the same as voluntariness, in a postcapitalist society. The point about coercion plays no necessary role in arguments that determinately conclude that postcapitalism is the only valid option
@jlou@apodoxus
While workers technically consent to employment under capitalism, the economic pressures and inequalities inherent in capitalism limit their true freedom of choice. The capitalist system itself perpetuates structural violence and exploitation, which which prevents any genuine voluntariness.
@pinkdrunkenelephants@Radical_EgoCom@apodoxus This is true, but we are arguing against a theoretical capitalist ideologue made of steel that rejects such non-consensual employment. To advance anti-capitalism, we should focus on arguments that show the invalidity of even this steel capitalist ideologue's position
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