tlg,
@tlg@mastouille.fr avatar

@AdeptVeritatis A democratic country can, and shall, demand its citizen to join the military when it is invaded. It isn't evil.

AdeptVeritatis,
@AdeptVeritatis@social.tchncs.de avatar

@tlg

I already deleted it, because I thought it wasn't very well thought out.

But your answer makes me regret that decision. Because it WAS on point.

"It isn't evil."
But it is close to. And a warning call, not to step over a line, is always good. I think, we are friends. And friends not only are allowed to but have an obligation to warn you, if you are about to do something stupid.

(You as in not you personally.)

:mastohandshake:

tlg,
@tlg@mastouille.fr avatar

@AdeptVeritatis what is "close to evil" ? What would be "do something stupid" ? You want to warn Ukrainians, but about what danger ?

AdeptVeritatis,
@AdeptVeritatis@social.tchncs.de avatar

@tlg

To be in the company of dictatorial regimes, who do not give out passports to citizens, they think do not deserve a passport.

You do not have to earn your status as a citizen. Not in a labor camp or Gulag. And not by fighting for your country.

tlg,
@tlg@mastouille.fr avatar

@AdeptVeritatis you misunderstand what it means to be a citizen of a democratic country : it gives you rights, but also duties. When your country is invaded, when cities are bombed, when hundreds of people are killed everyday, it is your duty to defend your fellow citizens. What is evil, is wanting to get the benefits of citizenship when you abandon the other citizens.

AdeptVeritatis,
@AdeptVeritatis@social.tchncs.de avatar

@tlg

You may be technically correct, but I do not want to waste my time, thinking about it.

Such a decision comes out of despair. It is completely understandable. But I think, it is morally reprehensible.

We are born into a nation. We do not owe it anything. And especially not our lives.
No! Definitely no!

AdeptVeritatis,
@AdeptVeritatis@social.tchncs.de avatar

@tlg

We have collectively decided, that we do not want to deal with disputes privately but have independent institutions handle it for us. We follow the rules voluntarily. And we show our consent by voting in elections and not storming the government buildings.

Democracy!

AdeptVeritatis,
@AdeptVeritatis@social.tchncs.de avatar

@tlg

The governments are not our rulers. In fact, that are people who say: "We have ideas to make your life better. We know, how to govern and make useful rules for everyone. Vote us!"
And we vote them, to DO THE JOB!
They work for US!

WE DO NOT DIE FOR THEM!

We only die, if WE decide to defend our country.

A war may seem like a different situation, but why should it be?

AdeptVeritatis,
@AdeptVeritatis@social.tchncs.de avatar

@tlg

You may see it differently, that is OK. And law and habit may be different.

But is a symbol for the new kind of how we want to live together.
Away from fossil profits.
Away from corruption.
Away from nationalism, where every nation fights for itself.
And much more.

There is so much going on.
It should not be shadowed by such a decision.

Decisions can be changed. At least in a democracy.

tlg,
@tlg@mastouille.fr avatar

@AdeptVeritatis First, is NOT an utopia where everything is perfect, nor the symbol of a better democracy. It doesn't have to be. It is a nation fighting for its freedom against a massive, brutal invasion of a stronger dictatorship. Ukraine does whatever they need to win this bloody war, with what they have, even if it isn't pretty nor perfect.

AdeptVeritatis,
@AdeptVeritatis@social.tchncs.de avatar

@tlg

No. If yours would be true, #Ukraine would already be completely part of Russia.

Olaf #Scholz is a symbol for the old Democracy. Keeping the weapons and ammo stocks, because "The Russki could attack us one day!!!".
Only giving away, what should have been disposed a long time ago. Getting rid of our waste.

The same principle led to the war. Putin is a bully. Bullies only attack the weak, never the stronger ones.

We were too cheap to make Ukraine stronger.
Strengthen its economy.

AdeptVeritatis,
@AdeptVeritatis@social.tchncs.de avatar

@tlg

No, we didn't want to have another strong competitor. So we kept them down.

And we wanted to spend our money on ourselves.
Now we need 10 times the money to help Ukraine out. And still didn't learn the lesson. We still want to keep our Taurus, because we only have some.

Ukraine is probably not even close to our standards in most areas:
https://mastodon.social/

But it is moving in the right direction.

Our fat asses didn't move for decades. That is the difference.

AdeptVeritatis,
@AdeptVeritatis@social.tchncs.de avatar

@tlg

A lot of interest groups stand in a line to get lucrative jobs for the rebuilding of Ukraine.
That will be the turning point, where it will be obvious, that Ukraine is not like Olaf Scholz.

Who, by the way, was in the center of a huge banking corruption scandal about CumEx.
(only in german)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_Scholz#Cum-Ex-Gesch%C3%A4fte_der_Warburg_Bank

There are rumors, Ukraine is fighting against Wagner in African countries. If that is true, it shows they do more than just saving their own ass.

tlg,
@tlg@mastouille.fr avatar

@AdeptVeritatis Second: you are right when we say that in a democracy, we "collectively decide". The important word is "collectively". Decision and consent are given collectively, you cannot, as an individual being, decide that you don't have to pax the tax or obey the law. Same thing for military duties. You cannot oppose the collective decision and refuse to be conscripted into the army, especially when your country is invaded and needs you.

AdeptVeritatis,
@AdeptVeritatis@social.tchncs.de avatar

@tlg

You don't owe your life to the state. Never.

Do you want to compare human life with money? ARE YOU SURE?

Paying taxes vs. Dying on the battlefield?

You are in line with these people:
https://mstdn.social/@Powerfromspace1/112353378249077789

Nice company you have!

tlg,
@tlg@mastouille.fr avatar

@AdeptVeritatis Finally, if you don't want to kill other human beings (and this moral decision shall not be confused with the cowards who refuse to join the military), there are plenty of ways you can help your fellow citizen anyway, and share the burden of the fight. For example, you can be a combat medic.

AdeptVeritatis,
@AdeptVeritatis@social.tchncs.de avatar

@tlg

There are people, who prefer to die in a river rather than sitting in a save bunker controlling UAVs or being medic support.
https://mastodon.social/@thejapantimes/112359718317623020

Victory can not be extorted. You will only harvest this kind of tension:
https://mastodon.social/

AdeptVeritatis,
@AdeptVeritatis@social.tchncs.de avatar

@tlg

Another rumor from some days ago was, that behind this decision, there was a lot of pressure from the US.
And this could explain it.

They do not want to send their own troops. So they pressure Ukraine to fight until they are bled out.
And they pressure European governments to refuse replacement papers. Which would be again some kind of rogue state behavior.

Olaf-Scholzing with the life of Ukrainians. Not ours, let them pay first.

AdeptVeritatis,
@AdeptVeritatis@social.tchncs.de avatar

@tlg

Which is somehow OK (life is not money!), because it is the Ukrainians, who want to defend their country. But as we already know, that we are next, it is stupid to just sit by and wait.

But pay attention: "because it is the Ukrainians, who want to defend their country"
"WANT TO DEFEND".

They could have given up like France did in WWII, waiting for someone else to rescue them and arrange with the Nazis meanwhile.
But Ukraine remembers the Holodomor. So they WANT to defend their country.

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