I’ve been eyeing an Ioniq 5 for about 18 months now and just checked local pricing again and they haven’t budged an inch on pricing (even now with 2024 models being sold with 2023 models left on the lot) nor are they even carrying inventory outside of the most expensive trim packages of Limited AWD. I’m interested in range, so I’m wanting a Limited RWD but they aren’t being stocked.
This article screams “I’m not doing my job and it’s all your fault!”
There’s a 2008 style crash coming in the credit market for cars. There’s a lot of subprime loans and a lot of car companies that got into financing that shouldn’t have. Wait til they really get squeezed. Who am I kidding tho, they will just ask for a bail out.
Some of us are still miffed about the 2008 bailouts, which ran entirely counter to the market forces rhetoric. Then the police turned off all the cameras and ran OWS off with riot squads.
No resolution was offered. even Dodd-Frank was reversed by Trump.
So you can expect a lot of civil unrest. It’s been due since the great depression, about a century ago.
Wrong! They will let it crash a bit and everyone will panic and see that shit is about to get real. The government will offer to defer the pain by bailing out the very rich and get things moving again, it’s the only way the government at the time will be able to hold onto power. People are fucking idiots so they’ll do nothing because they don’t like being uncomfortable for a short time even if it means they are getting slowly buttraped over the medium to long term
Issue is the dealership deals made with the auto manufacturers. Inventory on hand is often times (not including some of that bs that had dealerships marking stuff way over msrp) only set up to make the dealership a few thousand in profits.
For any major price reductions that are really needed, the auto manufacturers would have to be giving the vehicles to the dealerships for less money.
In other words, ford will have to drop prices for dealerships to drop prices.
Meanwhile, up here in Canada I put a down payment on an IONIQ 5 Ultimate Edition (Canadian equivalent of the US ‘Limited’ model) back in early April 2022, and it still hasn’t been ordered, because Hyundai decided to flood the US market while stiffing the Canadian market.
Hyundai (and other EV makers) are fucking around, and then blaming the market.
Yep sounds similar to what’s happening here. Since the car was first released you could spec one out with Limited RWD on Hyundai’s site but none existed in the entire country up until the last few months when they began trickling out. The website tells you that you can’t actually order or build the car you want and instead must visit a dealer and choose something among their inventory. I’m sorry but I’m not going to compromise on a major purchase like this for a brand new vehicle. Dealerships can eat a dick.
While I still think that Hyundai engineering and design did some real magic with the IONIQ 5, I just can’t help but feel like the rest of the company is just screwing the pooch on this car. They’ve flooded the US market with models people there don’t seem to want to buy, and dealership lots often have a dozen or more waiting to be sold.
Meanwhile, here in Canada buying one is damn near impossible. That doesn’t seem to stop them from sending out mass marketing materials and ads trying to sell them (or the IONIQ 6), mind you — I just wish they had focussed first on ensuring their biggest boosters globally were getting the cars they want, as opposed to putting lots of cars nobody seems to want on US dealership lots.
(FWIW, my dealership told me they weren’t being allowed by Hyundai to order any 2023 IONIQ 5s. This seems to be a fairly common occurrence across all dealerships here in Canada, with just a few cars trickling in each month).
Jfc. I have a feeling this is going to become a much more common tale with high tech or precision manufactured goods, goods just being diverted from western markets to Group of Friends and Axis of Evil countries. Hopefully America doesn’t go full isolationist and we continue to seek global trade such as the trans pac trade agreement and similar trade agreements, keep the dollar nice and strong.
Shit dealers (and especially the sales people) tend to not at all be trained on how to sell these cars, and can be openly hostile towards people interested in them. EVs don’t make them as much money on service.
Yup something I keep getting into arguments about at work. Sales makes a mistake on their order. And I somehow as the tech end up sorting it. And that sales person keeps their entire sales commission. I’ve been telling mgmt forever take away the commission if there are reasonable timeframe issues or incorrect selections made by the sales agent. That will make them make sure they perfect it to get their pay.
Edit: I’d like to note I’m not even asking for the commission idc I just want sales to do shit properly. Lol
Took us forever and is still contested now and again, but we managed to force the sales process yo include product managers or owners. Without an estimate from them, which is created in coordination with the engineers and developers, no offer is being made anymore. Certain sales people are butthurt, because the estimated costs are often too high for our "price sensitive clients" as in: they don't know how to sell our products on added value rather than on lower cost.
New car sales people do not give a single fuck about whether the car comes back for service. They get paid for selling cars, full stop. It's possible that management is making ICE car sales commissions higher than EV; that would create an incentive to push ICE.
Commissions on EV sales for legacy automakers are dismal. None of the legacy automakers are making EVs at scale so they are losing 10s of thousands of dollars per EV they sell. Sales personnel aren’t moving them because they have no incentive to do so. Then these companies complain about how there is no demand while the EV sector is growing exponentially.
Tesla got to scale while legacy automakers were all laughing at them and now they have to compete by gaslighting the marketplace about how there is no demand.
I’ve been in an EV since 2020 and am never going back. When people start to wake up to how convenient and comfortable EVs are and stop buying into all of the negative media, it’s only going to snowball from there.
Not OP, but middle America resident here. Family vacationed in my Bolt EUV 2023 to Florida and had to plan activities at most of my charge stops because of how slow it DC fast charges (50kw). Mostly meals, but locating museums and other stuff wasn’t to hard. CCS network is not good, but it’s good enough with the right planning. Yeah road trips aren’t ideal in the Bolt, but since Ford didn’t make but 15 base model F-150 Lightnings and I wasn’t paying $30,000 over MSRP for 1 of 3 trucks in stock East of the Mississippi, I bought the Bolt instead planning to put my daughter in it when she’s ready to drive. I would’ve preferred utility and faster DC charging, but had to make do with what was available. Road tripping in a Tesla would be much easier and quicker.
Before you ask, no you can’t buy the base model Lightning direct from Ford. You can all other trims though.
I drove it about 60-80 miles a day on a Houston commute for about 2 years. Now I took it on the road and am trying out the digital nomad lifestyle. Just drove 1000miles in 2 days, from sea level to 10,000ft. I haven’t had a problem finding chargers or with anything else.
If you’re road-tripping, there are apps to plan the optimal route based on whether you want to arrive in the shortest time or don’t mind stopping for a while longer at parks, restaurants, or shopping places. I generally drive about 2 1/2-3 hrs, then stop for a half hour or so, give or take 10 minutes if I’m in a rush or want to stop for lunch or something. When im in a hotel, I just search for hotels that have EV chargers and charge overnighit… those are usually free. When I’m in a new area renting a place, I haven’t had an issue finding a plug to slow charge or a grocery store or something that has a fast charger.
I guess to answer your question, I primarily take it on road trips, but use it locally in the destinations I land in.
I guess my concern was charging time. Granted, I haven't really done any research, but I had it in my head that it would take a long time to charge (slow charging?). Overnight would be fine, but I was picturing driving for a few hours, and then charging for a few hours, over and over again.
Yeah. A lot of people don’t have first hand experience and there is a lot of misinformation out there.
It does take about an hour to charge if you go from empty to full, but it charges slower as you get closer to 100%. That’s why they say it takes about half an hour to get an 80% charge.
I usually try to plan my routes where I charge after getting under 10% and only save my longer charges for places that have some kind of point of interest, like a park, or a meal break. The apps strategize all of that stuff and make the route, you just have the option of optimizing if you want to adjust the route.
It does seem to break up a drive a bit nicer and leave you with more energy when you hit your destination, but would be more irritating if I was under a time crunch and didn’t plan the time accordingly.
They’ll also fail to mention that it’s the fastest growing new car segment. They may not me moving as many as they want, but they’re definitely moving.
I don’t know how it is in the us but here in Germany many (single-brand-)dealers are also licensed mechanics (for that brand) - and since EVs are taking much less repairing than traditional cars they are basically shooting themselves in the foot by selling them
Maybe it’s because cars suck now: filled with spyware, massively complex systems that aren’t better at doing car things than similar systems in the 90s, and with a price tag that considers this garbage as worth something to the consumer.
I sincerely wish that were the case. The proliferation of Ring doorbells, Alexa speakers, and overall lack of tech literacy really hampers any signs of general outcry. Our collective screech barely registers as a whimper in the grand scheme.
They were always a loss leader, but that hardly makes their sales any less visible. Amazon intended to turn Alexa into an Amazon shopping assistant and I’m glad that never took off. Go door to door in the ‘burbs and just try to tell me that Ring doorbells are uncommon.
I mean that’s my disappointment with the new Tacoma that’s coming out soon. It’s great that they have a hybrid now, but it’s full of electronic crap now that used to be mostly isolated to certain components.
Now the entire gauge cluster is a screen, it’s sad.
I was legitimately going to buy a brand new one in the next year or two when I’m back in the US, and I’ve never bought a new car. now I guess I have to get a 2023 model or earlier. I bet any of the 2016-2023 generation lasts longer than the 2023-2030ish generation.
Honestly I don’t even like trucks but the biggest pull for me was that the Tacoma was still pretty old school for a new vehicle, and that it could go anywhere kinda rough.
I wanted to like the Tacoma but I owned a Corolla and it’s the same size inside. Not like in a “this is a truck” way either I mean the cabin is like a compact car. Seating position is just awful. I’m tall but this isn’t a tall thing even.
Thing about the Corolla is it had 41” legroom in front at least. More backseat room too.
Now the entire gauge cluster is a screen, it’s sad.
This is a really interesting take to me because I’m excited for all the physical displays to be replaced by screens. Because once they’re screens, the new CarPlay can take them over and give an actually good user experience compared the incredible dog shit quality in-car experience that the manufacturers provide.
There was another thread here on Lemmy where I talked about how my parents installed a wired intercom in our house so they wouldn’t have to yell at me when they wanted something and someone replied that they just use Alexa to do that and I wanted to hit my forehead on my keyboard.
The same thing happens in ICE vehicles. The issue here is that they marked them up an insane amount, refuse to learn about them, and actively discourage people from buying them.
Hi you pulled your car in, nothing is actually wrong with it but we looked at it from a distance and you need new air filters. That will be $375. I can make you a good price, I got it down to $373 because you’re a good money bag, I mean client.
Oh no! But won’t someone think about what the rent-seekers need? They worked hard for years to capture government regulation allowing them to be not only middle-men, but the only middle men allowed! How can they be expected to turn around and do what the government asks? This is a travesty!
I have hated every single car dealer I have dealt with, even my high school friend, but somehow my Nissan dealer was such a nice guy. He never found anything extra and always gave the straight forward solution, I only worked with him maybe 4 times for the 5 years I owned the car, but my bill was always <$100.
They refuse to learn about them and actively direct people to ICE vehicles. No shit they are having a ‘hard time’ selling them. They have tried less than nothing to sell them.
I have Ford hybrid manuals. It won't do you much good on the cost of the tools to work on them. Best advice on hybrids is to learn how to disconnect your battery before servicing your vehicle.
If you can afford the 3k tool then it is only 1k per year :D
Translation: Car dealers don’t make as much money from EV’s.
Car sales is a racket anyway, the dealers make too much money, the car manufacturers make too much money, and with the prospect of a new technology that costs more they’ve realised that they can’t charge as much more, meaning they profit less.
Price is not proportional to cost.
The biggest crime is the villainisation of haggling. Price must be negotiable for a system to remain fair.
Yeah, hate haggling. Never know if it is actually a good deal, and tracking prices and deals is so unreliable compared other goods with the way those have historic price tracking recorded on sites like camelcamelcamel or keepa. Keeps consumers in the dark with only a broad idea of what isn’t a scam price and making the experience as exhausting as possible to extract money from them.
EV cars are better than ICE cars, but the biggest problems with cars are so much bigger than the type of engine they use. As grateful as I am for EV cars being a thing sometimes they just feel like a distraction from solving the actual fundamental issues around transportation.
Give me a solid car with an electric motor, but all old-school buttons and knobs in the cabin instead of a touchscreen that will be out of date in 5 years and cost 10k to replace if the kids get their grimy hands on it.
PHEV is the answer! Give us options, doesn’t have to be one of the other; Chevy Volt had it for a bit, but it must not have been profitable because now I can’t find a PHEV that gets more than 30 miles on a full charge!
I don’t want to buy the oversized battery, and I don’t really want to buy the on-board generator/charger of PHEV. I only want to own as much vehicle, and incur the manufacturing carbon debt, to meet 95-98% of my needs. Make it easy to rent, borrow, or share the extra capacity for the last 2%, and the world will be a lot less wasteful. I can see renting a trailer with enough generator to replace a series hybrid. I can see renting surplus battery. And those rental services can be a revenue stream to replace dealerships lost service centers.
Clearly, though, I’m a minority of consumers, and no manufacturer actually wants to cater to me and my twelve friends.
Your use case is very reasonable, and a lot of people want it. But it’s a big challenge from a technical/engineering standpoint. You know how a replacement battery pack for an EV costs like $8k and has a range of 300 miles? Your rental battery would cost at least that much, plus whatever costs are involved to make it portable, and integrate it’s usage into your existing EV. Then the rental places would need to have massive charging capabilities for when people stop in to swap their empty rental battery for a full one, since it still only has a range of 300 miles (4-5 hours of freeway driving)
I actually think there will be improvements on the fast charging front. You can already see this idea in other places. Many heavy duty trucks have 2 fuel tanks. You can fill them with 2 standard pumps running simultaneously, effectively giving you double the refueling speed. Some phones have dual batteries for the same reason.
The honest answer for right now, which will likely cause an emotional response, is to just rent a different car for these rare needs. Or plan around chargers en route, which will likely be a frustrating experience.
The savings you’ll get day-to-day will more than cover your rental fees.
You’re right. I got my current (smallish) car with the explanation that I could just rent a truck when I want to haul hobby materials, but the practical inconvenience of that rental has meant that I just don’t, and consequently haven’t done any big hobby projects in years. When I imagine renting an EV booster battery, I imagine it being easy, convenient, and reasonably priced, unlike literally everything else in the automotive market.
And there is different emotional content in using your own vehicle vs any alternative.
I just had my screen replaced because the L in LCD started oozing all over. It was $2200 which didn’t include the radio that cost an extra $500. So, not 10k, but not cheap either. On the plus side, outside of New tires, that’s the only thing I’ve done to the car in 8 years.
Well, maybe if the price of cars wasn't so fucking high, they'd be able to sell more of them. But nope, corps gotta get those record profits in, while underpaying every single [non-executive] worker.
The car dealers need to be abolished. Not even an ICE vs EV argument, car dealers are fucking awful, they barely know shit and borderline scam their customers trying to up the price of everything and then ‘pretend haggle’ down to a ‘reasonable price’ that’s still probably 30k over msrp
When I bought my Volt 10 years ago, I knew more about the car than any of the dealer sales people. I doubt the situation has changed much. That being said, I would hesitate to recommend an EV to a non technically inclined person, because the charging situation is still rough even in CA. Stations are often broken, or the billing doesn’t work, or they are in inconvenient areas. Gas is still the idiot proof option. We will know we’re really in the future when you can go to most grocery stores or strip mall and charge with tap to pay (no stupid app to pre-configure). There has to be 95% reliability. Right now I’d say about 1/5 of stations I visit have something wrong with them in terms of no internet connection for billing, slow charging, illegible UV-damaged screen, or just outright broken hardware. heatmap.news/…/nema-14-50-mobile-charger-lucid-ai…
I wouldn’t say gas stations have the same frequency of problems honestly. 19 times out of 20, my gas is dispensed without issue. And I’m able to buy it without joining a program or going out of my way. Electric charging is not yet that convenient, and it should be.
Regulating that all petrol gas stations also have charging stations for electricity would be a step in the right direction. That way somebody will be on duty to deal with situations that you’ve mentioned above.
I believe in large the reason for all the malfunctions at charging stations is because they’re unmanned.
Same situation, I have the bolt and volt cars and I drive about the same with the caveat that I coast more often to a stop and make full use of being plugged in at home for warming up or cooling down the car. Really, all you need to know about driving an ev or a hybrid. Everything else is just extra stuff to take care of and make better use of the dollar savings you get with an EV.
On the flipside, I know too many people who don’t care how hard they drive the accelerator and brakes that they would rather get a gas car because of how fast they consume and prioritize time spent fueling vs charging. Really, I save close to 2k/year more than those who drive semi efficiently, and about double that amount vs. the people who are economically irresponsible. Also, I meet a lot of tesla owners who do users using the tesla superchargers who are complaining about how garbage their battery life after 3 years of driving for Uber(20% of degradation). It makes sense why people don’t want to drive an EV. They just don’t want to slow their lives down. They want to constantly keep doing stuff and do it fast. It’s amazing how much instant gratification has made everyone’s lives worse. Even people like me who go slow have to deal with their BS.
I refuse to buy a DRM infested iPhone / un-rootable Android on wheels with data hoarding spyware and no access to service manuals, parts or service tools. Also decent build quality without excessive and inappropriate use of plastic.
My car is a not a 10 year disposable item. ~< 2008 era cars for me.
I’d argue that cars becoming part of the disposable economy is even worse for the eNViRoMeNt.
There are people who have attempted to get battery replacements for the early model Teslas and the price was either inanely high or most of the time unavailable. For all intents and purposes, I interpret this as the car is not meant to be serviced or repaired long term and therefore disposable.
Granted this is not exclusive to EVs. Most ICE vehicles made in the last 10 years have or will be affected by unavailable parts or worse, serialized parts. Much like FutureMotion’s Onewheel that Louis Rossmann has been covering, even if third parties are willing to make aftermarket parts, they either can’t bypass the DRM or if they do they will be sued into oblivion. Both EV and ICE cars are heading this way and it’s a environmental disaster.
You are very wrong. The product most definitely does not suck.
Petrol cars are unbelievably good right now even from bad manufacturers like Chrysler the reliability is through the roof.
Electric cars have come a long way they still have their hiccups but in general they function perfectly fine now. I most definitely will not recommend getting a Tesla from 2013 but something like a Chevy volt or a Volkswagen or a mustang EV are very very good cars.
What does a modern car get me over my 15 year old Corolla as far as reliability? Idk if I really need something that lasts longer, to be honest. I’ve put less than $1000 in this car other than wear items like tires in 15 years, and it cost less than $16k off the lot brand new. A new car would have to get like double the mileage or last a million miles without breaking down to be significantly better than mine, and it would have to be significantly better, because it’s going to cost significantly more even if I get the absolute cheapest cars on the market in their case trim.
Gas prices keep going up and electricity keeps getting cheaper. Factor in that and never having to pay for an oil change again and an electric car starts looking much cheaper.
I mean, if you’re well off enough to buy a $30k car, you’re better off than most Americans anyway. What about those of us that couldn’t afford that, and instead are faced with the choice of taking out exploitative loans and paying for years, or keeping our high mileage, high MPG vehicles?
It seems there’s an assumption that everyone eventually has to buy a new car, but that’s not true. I can count the number of people in my life who have ever bought a new car on one hand. The rest rely on old junkers they replace every couple years because $2000/2yrs is significantly more affordable for someone in poverty than $30,000+ in one year, or $500/mo payments for 5.
Like for me, I spend $30/mo on gas. That’s it. I spend about $25/yr on oil changes, I spend $75/every 2 years on emissions. I’d have to save a hell of a lot more than just gas and upkeep costs to save even a single dollar, and even then I’m definitively losing money over just keeping my car because I will have to pay payments for years because I don’t have the money to buy a new car outright. Personally, I will never buy a new car, nor take a loan for Car, so that puts EVs even further out of my reach. Wheres the $5-10k EVs that are present in much of the world? I don’t want a 16” tv in my dash, or heated seats, or a vision system, or rain sensing windows. I want a bare bones car, with no luxuries, for as cheap as possible, that is as efficient as possible. My 15 year old Corolla is better than the majority of modern cars available in my country in nearly every respect that is meaningful to me than any EVs available for sale in my country, every way except emissions. Unfortunately, my economic security takes priority over individualist attempts to address climate change.
My original comment was in the context of new versus new. If a person is going to buy a $30,000 car regardless it’s cheaper to get an electric one because you never have to buy gas for it.
I have no idea why you’re bringing up your 15-year-old Corolla or your personal operating cost for it why are you bringing up car sales in America new versus used none of this is relevant.
13 million new cars were sold in America in 2022 that is a substantial amount of cars the fact that more used cars were sold is more or less a sign of the times than anything else, moreover there has been a massive chip shortage less new cars are being made.
As a matter of fact statistically speaking the majority of people keep the cars they already bought for years and years at a time which means that car sales are going to go down anyway. So the fact that more used cars are being sold then new ones is also irrelevant.
I spend $30/month on gas. Electricity is gonna have to get a whoooole lot cheaper to justify at minimum $30,000 to purchase an EV. Maybe if we get rid of some of the protectionism and allow Chinese $10k EVs into the US I’d consider it. An oil change once a year over the course of owning a car is less than $1000… it costs $25 to do yourself, $50 to have someone else do it. That’s… not a significant cost for even the poorest of people.
I think you vastly overestimate how many people buy new cars. Most new cars are bought by the same group of people year after year. Almost 75% of cars purchased in America yearly are used. It’s really only a specific class of people who can afford to buy new cars. It is not the norm.
Subscriptions to use any part of my car and even more tracking than my ICE car are part of the product, and that sucks. I beg to differ on me being wrong, on those two counts specifically.
No matter what the stability, reliability, and safety are, the two things I mentioned are each sufficient grounds to not buy pretty much any of the modern cars, EV or ICE.
What a weird outlook you have. I don’t even have a way to rebut it. You simultaneously agree and disagree with me. And at the same time still your only qualification that makes a car bad is the software which you personally do not like.
There are a myriad of cars out there that don’t have this kind of software built into it. There are even EVs that don’t have the software built into it.
I even agree with you I drive a Volkswagen id4 and the software in it is beyond horrific there have been times where I had to sit around poking around menus trying to figure out how to make my car actually run.
However, in my interpretation the benefits significantly outweigh the negatives of owning an electric vehicle not being tethered to gasoline is an extremely freeing experience. It is also significantly cheaper.
I feel like you just made something up so you don’t have to like EVs.
I feel like you just made something up so you don’t have to like EVs.
The fact that this is your takeaway from my messages (in addition to your general tone) just shows you are trying to push a self-righteous agenda without properly identifying who are your allies and opponents. I abhor ICEs and would have bought an EV by now if not for the scummy companies producing them, and the fact that I basically do not drive anymore so switching my relatively unused car out for any replacement vehicle does not make sense. I’d sooner just sell the car and wash my hands of them entirely.
What a weird outlook you have.
Not likely subscription services and the car manufacturers tracking me is not “weird” it’s well justified. I don’t like my insurance company tracking me either which is why I heavily restrict the permissions their app has (and use a second phone for it). ICE and EV manufacturers have immense overlap and I’ve yet to hear of one that actually respects their customers and doesn’t turn their products into drivable spyware.
I don’t even have a way to rebut it.
Perhaps you should quit the contrarian behavior since you’re not putting in the effort to be one. You’ve already demonstrated you aren’t putting in the effort to read my messages by openly misidentifying me as an EV hater.
You said that reliability and all that is irrelevant, only the tracking and the software on the vehicles is why you don’t like them.
Your original comment said that modern cars suck or a crappy my rebuttle was that they are not they’re significantly more reliable than older cars even from crappy manufacturers.
What in your comments above has anything to do with that?
The world changes things become better and things become worse the fact that you don’t like it is completely irrelevant back in the 80s you could use a flathead screwdriver to start up a car you can’t do that anymore because of modern software and technology.
So circling back around you are wrong, modern cars are better than older ones. Aside from your personal preference of not liking how they make cars today with the technology that’s in them do you have anything to substantiate your claim?
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