IMHO It’s psychological trickery to make customers pay more under threat of making them feel like a bad person. It cleverly shifts costs from business owner to customer.
As in contrast stands asking proper price for well done job. Getting people loyal by quality thus positively motivating them to pay the higher prices.
Tips are for going beyond what is expected of your job. You did more than the bare minimum, and beyond what you were paid for.
The door dash driver that dropped my unwrapped utensils on the ground next to my order, and placed the bag next to my door so I’d smack it when I went outside to grab it - he does not get a tip.
The Uber eats lady that drove past my front door and made me meet her a 1/4 mile down the road - she doesn’t get a tip either.
If your job is to sit behind the counter, and take or make my order, I’m sorry there isn’t much opportunity for you to go above and beyond. But that’s not my problem
You can “adjust” your tip after your order arrives. With doordash anyway, the tip is charged separately from your order. It sends you a few notifications after your food arrives asking you to rate and tip.
I doordash a LOT and I’ve only ever lowered the tip once for bad service. The directions I have on the app say “Please do not ring door bell or knock, sleeping children.” So this guy rings the doorbell, I’m like, dang it now the kids awake and will know I have secret food… I won’t be able to go bring it until he goes back to sleep. Oh well. Then he starts knocking and ringing repeatedly and pounding and shouting to come outside because my order is here. I went to the door and scolded him and then he told me that his dad works for the CIA and I’m going to be sorry. That guy did not get his tip.
Doordash doesn’t actually remove tips from drivers no matter what the customer says or does.
There are cases where they will refund a customer the amount they paid for a tip if they’re upset but it doesn’t actually take away that amount from the driver.
Uber Eats on the other hand actually will remove tips from the driver after the fact the way you’re describing.
So when it prompts me to “adjust” the tip, does the driver get more when I add money? I often do that. The time I took it away I did go through customer service.
Yes. They do get more when you add money (these days).
In years past doordash and many others have been accused of stealing tips but it’s believed that isn’t currently happening anymore (at least with the major hot food delivery services).
Yes. On basically every app they can always see the tip or lack thereof before fulfilling the order (or for that matter even deciding whether or not to fulfill the order).
Mfw I recognize a problem in society by it’s symptom, but take action neither to ameliorate the problem or symptom even when it’s considered socially unacceptable not to
You agreed to a wage when you took the position and make the choice to maintain that with your employer, but its everyone else’s responsibility to fix it?
No, there is a social expectation that customers will tip. This varies by location. The social expectation is baked into the exploitative labor relationship. A person who knows this and doesn’t tip is acting anti socially.
It is not a protest against the oppression servers experience in their exploitative jobs to deny them part of their pay. That just hurts the server.
It is a callous, self centered, entitled statement that tells everyone else you don’t believe the expectations apply to you.
If you want to make a change in the social expectation, consider organizing with service workers in your area.
So I have to organize for them, they are incapable of doing so themselves? I already tip, which is why I know the cost of the practice, and the social stigmas not giving in to servers begging comes with.
My experience is servers like the status quo because they make 2-3x what the kitchen staff does. What incentives do servers have to support the kitchen staff they’ve sold out in fighting for better wages? Servers do not do any more work than the people actually making the food.
The social expectation is baked into the exploitative labor relationship.
I agree, servers have been on the abusing side of the exploitative labor relationship. They choose to take less wages so they can expect the customer to pay more or bear the social stigma, giving the employer more savings and themselves significantly more than the kitchen staff. In the end both parties expect to exploit the customer.
I suggested your activism to end the tipping system would be more effective if you organized with service workers, not for them. Of course, often there are many more pressing matters than taking on the myriad changes even one place has to go through to remove tipping, so you will likely find that no one is interested in doing a complex, difficult project just so you won’t have to tip and may in fact be hostile to you unless you’re very careful in how you present yourself.
You know, because you selfishly view performing your duties under the flawed labor relation you take part in as optional.
E: I completely forgot to pound this point home and it’s a prime example: if you don’t tip, you’re a bad person!
Lol just dripping with entitlement. I do tip, which is why I know the associated cost and how much more expensive servers have successfully guilted us into making our restaurant experience in the u.s.
I’m finishing up a vacation to an island nation in South East Asia and this afternoon I had some amazing ramen and thought of you. I walked in and ordered from a kiosk and then a few minutes later grabbed my food from the order drop, made by employees who earn a living wage and do not expect tips for doing their job as a means to try to earn more than the kitchen staff. The food was amazing and despite the markup of being on an island was cheaper than I could get it from the restaurant in my home town after the server tax.
Weird how nowhere in that engagement did i have some entitled person expecting a generous markup on my meal for bringing it and maintaining my drink. In fact thats been the experience this entire trip, even in instances where there was a server involved. Pleasant people who earn a living wage and do their work just like the rest of the staff in the restaurant. When it was appropriate we left more, the difference is it was a reward for excellent service, not just showing up.
So wait, the person who correctly recognizes your antisocial behavior and your server who expects you to uphold the expectations of your dining interactions are the entitled people here, not you who feels like you shouldn’t have to even though you know it’s expected and that you’re only harming your server when you don’t?
You are describing feeling entitled to receive the servers (and kitchen, some places split tips) labor for a lower rate and justifying it because you don’t feel like the social system that labor relation exists under is right.
It’s not right, but that doesn’t make you not a bad person when you don’t tip.
To go a little further: you describe servers doing all these things themselves, guilting everyone into paying more, expecting (all by themselves. as if everyone you dine with doesn’t expect you to tip too!) to be paid for their work. At no point do you place blame with or advocate taking action against the forces and structures that uphold tipped wages as a system. If you had an analysis that didn’t hinge on blaming the server for wanting to be paid I could look past it, but it’s germane here as another example of your entitlement to their work for a reduced rate.
Out of curiosity, what was this south Asian island nation?
It’s actually the other way around. Only a bad person would endorse and support a system of inconsistent unreliable wages. A system where one asshole customer can just fuck over their server. Why would you support such a harmful system? Because it benefits you, the customer? That doesn’t sound too ethical to me…
No, tipping encourages a system where servers don’t have consistent/reliable pay. They have no way of knowing what their income will be at the end of the month. And that makes things like paying rent tricky.
Part of my goal is making them quit and find a better job with a consistent income, even if outside the industry. This would positively benefit their life and the industry as a whole. This is what will end tipping and what anyone who disagrees with tipping culture should do.
If you’re serious about this: consider verbally and physically abusing your servers, lying about them to management, applying the methods outlined in the CIAs manual for disruption of organizations and even stoicastic violence.
Surely you could be doing more to hurt your server enough that they find a job you approve of!
For anyone reading this comment: if you don’t tip you’re a bad person exhibit a.
My goal is not to make all employees quit any and every job. I only want those unhappy with unreliable tip based income to quit, and I want them to communicate that with their employer.
If someone is happy with optional tipping, then I don’t want them to quit. But such a person should have no real problem with a $0 tip since they support optional tipping, right?
It must be so difficult to make the decision wether or not to tip then, since you need to extensively vet your server before even ordering.
That is of course unless you don’t make sure your server is unhappy with their tip based income and is communicating that with their employer before you don’t tip and are simply looking for a cover for your antisocial behavior.
Sorry, I don’t follow…can you clarify? I already pointed out that if someone were unhappy with optional tipping then they wouldn’t have any reason to be upset with someone deciding to tip $1000 or $20 or $0. That’s what optional means, having an option. So anyone who would be upset by an optional tip of $0 must be unhappy with their inconsistent tipped based income, obviously.
Because honestly it’s really not a hard decision at all, I just literally never tip.
If part of your goal is to make them quit but you only want people who are unhappy with their tips to quit then you gotta target the people who are unhappy with their tips otherwise your not tipping will make someone who is otherwise happy with their tips to become unhappy with their tips and you will have actively harmed your otherwise perfectly fine server.
You can always just admit that the justification you used is a cover for your antisocial behavior.
Because I want to convince others not to tip as well due to it helping people. And it seems to be working if it’s upsetting people who endorse giving or receiving tips.
Same reason you can’t say “I endorse tipping despite the harms it causes to those I directly (and indirectly) interact with, because it makes me feel good as a tipper and/or I like it when I get big tips sometimes”.
I have yet to hear an actual argument, even a weak one, as to why an inconsistent unknown income with a unreasonably low base wage is better than a fixed and fair one. I’m always open to changing my position if providing a convincing argument though.
Do you know that it’s having that effect? What kind of follow up interviews have you conducted to make sure people are getting the message and your not tipping is effective?
So like I said, if you really believe you’re helping people by pushing them out of jobs you don’t approve of, consider abuse, false reporting and bullying as well. You’re really limiting your ability to force people out of jobs you don’t approve of if you only vote with your dollars.
I have already addressed this point and you ignored it entirely. So I’ll just requote this to make clear you are unable to provide an answer.
I have yet to hear an actual argument, even a weak one, as to why an inconsistent unknown income with an unreasonably low base wage is better than a fixed and fair one. I’m always open to changing my position if providing a convincing argument though.
So I never said any of that and I’m not arguing for it against it. It’s not the topic of our thread of discussion, which I’ll restate for you:
If you don’t tip you’re a bad person.
Not to get all uno reverse on you, but I never got a response to my reply directly to what you did say and what is the topic of our conversation which you claimed you addressed but I for the life of me cant find it so I’ll repeat it here:
Do you know that it’s having that effect? What kind of follow up interviews have you conducted to make sure people are getting the message and your not tipping is effective?
Tipping itself supports a system of tipping. So anyone who tips is in support of tipping. It’s very very simple.
So if you don’t support the tipping system, you won’t tip. But you do support the system, and this tip.
I don’t need to follow up on interviews to know that lowering the average amount of tips received will push people toward pressuring their employers for fair wages. It’s the obvious result.
So you don’t know if what you’re doing is effective but you keep doing it.
Maybe next time you have a nice big meal with drinks appetizers and digestif, after you pay the bill without tipping, ask your server if your not tipping every time you visit that restaurant has caused them to approach management about abolishing tipping or caused them to pursue a job you approve of.
You could even make a list of jobs you think actually deserve their pay in case they ask you what jobs they should drop everything and pursue!
It’s important to check that what you’re doing is having the intended effect, especially when you’re one of thousands of diners in even a small town and one of dozens of tables a server might have in a day.
When your own own dollar-voting is dwarfed by the massive amount of cash sloshing around, it’s vital to check in, otherwise, you know, you’d only be harming your server by denying them part of their pay you’re responsible for.
Complaining about tipping culture and then giving money to the people who perpetuate it while shafting employees making $2.15/hr in an effort to end it is truly insane.
How the fuck am I supposed to know you make $2.15? And more importantly, why in the fuck would you ever agree to that?
A wage that low would literally be illegal in my (presumably more civilized) country where minimum wage is well over $12usd currently, servers included.
Do you think by not tipping you are improving the lives of those who depend on tips for their income? Do you think that by not tipping you are hurting the employer/ending tipping culture?
Lol what was the point of asking then? I thought at least you’d attempt to justify why you disagree with me if you did. But if you can’t justify your position, I guess I get it.
I remember the days when tipping was just making sure that the person who did a favor for you that their job said they didn’t have to do got some benefit/income out of doing it, as a thanks for that favor.
Tipping is a way to take any tension between the employee and the business owner, and between the customer and the business owner, and make it between the employee and the customer.
I don’t know if I’d say it’s unethical on the server’s part.
Honestly I don’t think it’s inherently unethical to engage in tip culture as a customer either. That would basically mean never eating out, for Americans.
The business owner didn’t even play a direct part in any of this. They just put up a job posting for a server for $x/hour and the server accepted the position knowing that was the wage.
The business owner took advantage of social expectations, sure…and yeah it isn’t ethical at all… but they have the least involvement in this whole thing compared to the server and customer.
And how were they able to make the argument ‘they get tips anyway’? My understanding is it arose during the great depression, and then they kept it going afterwards.
The business owner took advantage of social expectations, sure…and yeah it isn’t ethical at all… but they have the least involvement in this whole thing compared to the server and customer.
Mental gymnastics. They literally set the wage requiring the “whole thing” between the server and customer
They were only able to set that wage because of the server and the customer.
I’m not at all arguing the business owner is ethical. They are a piece of shit. The entire intention of my argument against tipping is to force the business owner to raise wages. Force. Not ask nicely and hope lol.
The business owner didn’t even play a direct part in any of this.
Yeah they just make more money because the server and the employer made an agreement whereby the server takes less from the employer and expects more from the customer in return.
Totally not involved at all… just how they want you to think of the situation.
Business owners will do whatever make more money. If a server was willing to volunteer and work for free, or worse pay the business owner $5/h to work there, the business owner would happily take that deal too.
I’ve been very clear the entire time that the business owner is not acting ethically. But they will continue to act like that unless we force them to change.
So it’s up to the server to look out for their interests and demand a better wage. Its not “keep tipping servers more and more because its the path of least resistance to prosperity for servers”.
Lots of jobs don’t pay enough in this country, but for some reason servers believe it entitles them to a donation. This is the status quo servers fought for because it made them more money than most of the rest of the staff until now.
I tip in a lot of cases, but there are several where I wonder if I should stop - specifically in the case where I’m simply picking up food that I had ordered. I saw some people saying the “rule” is something about 10% in that case. I have no idea what others do.
I’ve heard some people tell me they never tip - period, including when dining in. Often they just seem like misanthropes and/or extremely petty and cheap; more recently, it’s been something something woke libs, “no one wants to work anymore”, Gen Z/Gen Y or some other alt-right horse manure.
However, I do wonder if I’ve been tipping too much for situations that don’t require any tipping at all.
From my experience in working in restaurants, generally the bussers and servers are the ones who rely on tips most as their hourly rate is abysmally low, whereas Togo specialists are paid a more standard rate.
I worked pizza for 10yr, nah don’t tip for counter service, only delivery/actual servers. The cooks don’t get tipped out, and if there’s no server, I’m not tipping the phone bitch (gender neutral) for picking a box up off the counter behind them and handing it to me.
I absolutely will not tip for carryout or counter service, and I’m a very generous tipper otherwise. The only exception is if I’m for some reason paying cash, then maybe I’ll drop the change in the bucket.
You don’t get an attaboy for pouring me a coffee or grabbing a bag off a shelf and handing it to me.
$5 on a $30 meal is absolutely a tip. A pretty decent one at that (roughly 15%).
I tend to over-tip (20%+), but we also don’t go out all that often and I am only tipping wait-staff and barbers. None of this other new bullshit about take-out orders or anything like that.
Can you explain tipping a barber? A barber preforms a service that requires almost no one-time use products to complete and the service is done entirely, or almost entirely, by a single person. When barbers charge $15+ for a hair cut why should you be tipping them on top of that? The cost includes any work being done.
The main argument for tipping wait-staff is that the service they provide is additional from the kitchen (kitchen makes the food), and purely provides a service that is separate to the food (hence why I would argue tipping wait-staff is something that could be acceptable).
Barbers do have costs in performing their work but that can be reflected in the price, any tips to that is the same as tipping lawn care providers, car wash employees, etc.
Baristas and the person swiping your credit card for a takeout order is not. Nor the asshole selling you an overpriced T-shirt at a concert. Not your vet or your pet care place.
Yes, and my question is why is it standard, why should it be done? Just because something is standard doesn’t mean it makes sense, could you explain why it should be done?
Most barbers are independent and have to rent a booth from another business. The business usually sets the prices. So, they can’t just adjust their prices accordingly. Also, out of the $20 you pay them, they have to pay a portion back to cover booth rent, buy materials, pay for healthcare, etc. Tip is often their actual wage after costs.
I tip barbers, but I often wonder why tipping is a thing for barbers? Are they paid less than minimum wage? Since they have to have a license, I’m assuming they are not paid beneath minimum wage.
This actually seems a more appropriate time to tip? I’m a guy, I have a simple haircut. There are probably a dozen people on my block that that could do a suitable job giving me a haircut and for an actual barber I’m usually not more than 10-15 minutes in the chair. I go in, I say the same thing just about every time like you’re ordering a cheeseburger at McDonald’s, and my cut is about that level of difficulty.
My wife getting a $200-$300 cut and color is a half day long activity, at the least. She goes to someone who actually went to school for this shit, and then serves as a de facto entertainer for hours. Unlike my barber, who can turn over his chair every 10-15 minutes, the stylist doing my wife’s hair is spending 3-5 hours with her, and they approach the thing almost more like a collaborative project.
That’s another way to look at it. Though I’m pretty sure the woman owns her own studio. Or at least is her own boss. Seems like the $300 could just be payment enough. Or just charge $360.
It’s never that I don’t appreciate paying employees for their value… but the employer should be doing that. Charge more if you need to. Otherwise it’s just another hidden fee.
If the barber charges $15, I’d give them a 20 and call it a day. I am not going to be a cheap piece of shit for $5 if the barber does a good job. It isn’t just the hair cutting - it is typically a whole experience. They chat you up, they sometimes shave your face. It has been the tradition that barbers keep their prices low with the expectation that the tip itself brings their dollars-per-hour to a reasonable level. I’m not going to break that tradition if I went to one. But then again, I’ve been cutting my own hair for some 15 years now.
Also the way many barbershops are structured is that the barber rents out a chair at the shop. Not sure if they pay the shop per customer or by the hour, but it could very well be that the shop makes $5 out of that $15, so then only $10 goes to the barber plus whatever tip you give them. I do not claim to know the ins-and-outs of their cost structure so my numbers could be off, but I do know it is something like that.
Rounding out your cost to the nearest $5-10 can make sense. Especially when it’s an exact amount like $23 I’ll give them $25 because it’s just easier, but when you say tip the common amount of a tip is 15-25% would have you tip $3.50-5.75 on that $23 haircut. That’s more than I’ve ever tipped them because I’m already paying over $20 for something they completed in ~20 minutes without using anything that would cost them money (other than time).
Paying for the experience is not what I’m paying for, I’m paying for the service. Going to the movies I don’t tip the concession stand for providing me with the “movie experience” when they give me popcorn. And anytime they do extra stuff like shaving my face it costs extra. The haircut costs X amount and anything extra adds Y amount, it’s a service the same as all other services.
You are correct in that typically hair salons and barber shops will rent out the chairs to barbers, but this is done in 1 of 2 ways typically, the barber pays per month and they keep all of the money they make, or they pay a portion of every customer. Why does this matter to you as the consumer? If the barber isn’t making enough, the prices can increase. My local barbershop increased prices 2 times in the last 4 years. If they’re supposed to make their money on tips why is this? Their costs to run the business haven’t gone up because they don’t use anything to perform the service, so it must be to pay the barbers a better amount. Something that wouldn’t happen if it’s “meant to be a tipped position”.
If the barber charged $20 or the barber charged $15 with some kind of “expected” tip, fundamentally what is the difference?
Hair cutting is one of those professions, which traditionally (at least in the US) some form of tip is expected for a good job. That extra couple of bucks that one gives for a good haircut is well worth it to build that relationship. They might squeeze you in on an otherwise busy day if you have an interview the next day, or something along those lines. You can claim all you want that you aren’t paying for an experience, but the reality is that you are. The cut itself is only part of the whole process. The vibe of the shop - the music they might play or the game they are playing on the TV. Or maybe the opposite. Maybe it is a quiet place and you can go in there and relax in silence for a bit. It is all part of the experience. When I used to actually get my hair cut, it was probably once a month. That extra $5 means nothing to me in the end. If $60/year worth of tips is too much for some, then they might want to look at cutting their own hair.
I don’t understand why people are arguing this point. If collectively barbers said they are raising their rates but tipping isn’t needed anymore, than that would be great, but that’s not reality. Until that happens, I absolutely would tip a good barber and not think twice about it.
It doesn’t make sense to you because you’re reasonable and half the people in this thread are cheap and selfish. I’ve seen people say they don’t even tip their bartenders.
I bet the same people who don’t want to tip, are also the same type of people screaming for $15/hr pay for no-skill jobs. Yet they don’t want to pay people who have learned a marketable skill their fair share?! They can complain about tipping till the cows come home, but if the system in place now mean their income is based on getting a certain amount from tips, then arguing about tipping these people means you’re a cheapskate.
I don’t understand how it’s “cheap and selfish” to go to a bar, see that it says $7 for a drink on the menu, and choose to pay $7 for the drink that says $7 on the menu.
As a customer, it’s not my responsibility to know nor care how much the employee of the business makes. I see a sticker price for the thing I want, and I pay that price. What’s “selfish and cheap” about that?
Historically they have always been the same receipt as regular dine-in orders, so the area to write a tip has probably always been there. If I have to go there and pick it up, I sure as hell ain’t tipping. I mean unless it is some huge order or maybe some last-minute deal. Something out of the ordinary.
I once was at a bar the night before new years eve. The bar was packed. I’m usually a pretty heavy tipper at the bar, but this night, the bartender taped signs to their back that said, “doesn’t anyone know what 20% is?”
I closed my tab, tipped 0, and told the manager I stiffed their staff upstairs because they were being pricks.
The way to get better tips isn’t being a dick about it
Do you tip the factory workers who make your phone? What about the oil rig workers who get gas in your car? Is the rule literally just “we tip the people we see?”
The barista is earning about 10x per hour as the factory worker before tips. Answer the question instead of avoiding it.
You aren’t separated from the employees at a McDonalds. They make the same or less than Starbucks baristas. They even make cappuccinos and lattes. Do you tip them? Why not?
What about when you go to a restaurant and order a cappuccino after dinner? Do you tip the barista at the restaurant or just the server who brought it to you?
Wait staff also get paid minimum wage in many states, same as McDonalds workers. Gratuities are all on top of the standard wages.
You should support eliminating tips and moving people away from slave wages. Laws exempting wait staff from minimum wage are horrible. Nobody should depend on tips.
Yes. The owner of the business is responsible on giving their employees a livable wage, if they exploit the worker and the customer for their own benefit then the fault lies on them. What tipping does is to continue this tradition of employees giving their worker the bare minimum of unlivable wage, and you guys is feeding this tradition for your own ego.
Regardless, there is no place where tip jobs are the only entry level ones available. Don’t like having to rely on customers to pay your wages? Get a different job (as one should).
It’s not “regardless.” You threw out a nonsense soundbite and you will continue to do that until I stop engaging you. You’ve decided that you have the moral high ground by not tipping people, which is absolutely bizarre to me, and nothing will move you out of this position. So I’m not going to waste my time further.
not my problem, i avoid that shit altogether. other people use it so they vote with their money that they like the service. the service still around, so people voted to keep it. democracy.
I'll tip wait staff at a sit down restaurant, but Taco Bell can fuck right off asking me to tip at the drive through. Or a self-serve airport snack kiosk asking me to tip 😑
More than anything, I think people just need to get more comfortable with saying no in those situations. Plenty have places have always had a tip jar that most people don't give a second glance, but the second it's on an iPad everyone loses their mind.
Habitually, I give waiters, servers, delivery drivers, hotel cleaners, barbers and cab drivers a little extra on top of the bill.
The bottom line for me is this: If it’s something being expected, I don’t consider it a tip or gratuity anymore. A tip is a show of gratitude: if it doesn’t convey that meaning, instead it has become like any old service fee.
When I travelled to Europe and UK, for normal service I don’t tip, but by even just leaving a couple extra pounds or Euros along with chatting with the server, I can express my gratitude for how they went above and beyond normal service.
In Canada, I’ve tipped lots or little without being met with dirty looks. I think it helps that unlike the US, people are paid an hourly minimum wage as a baseline, and that it’s not customary for servers to steal your credit card and having to enter by hand the tip you wrote on the bill.
It harms employees that people are tipping them because it means they have no reason to fight their employer to have a guaranteed living wage, they depend on varying levels of income instead.
So now we’re victim blaming? “These lazy waiters need to get off their asses and attack the means for making rent without a union or support system of any kind!”
The only reason why employers can hire waiters at that wage is because clients pay tip. No tip + no increase in wage = no waiters because they moved to another sector entirely.
Just like any other jobs, the responsibility of unionization is on the employees and they would gain from doing it may they work for tip or not, so that argument is moot.
I worked a tipped job for 12 years, you won’t give me lessons about it. It’s a shit system to move the responsibility of providing employees with an appropriate wage to the clients and it opens the door to punishing employees by moving them to shifts that pay less for the same amount of time worked thus putting them in a precarious situation.
I tip more than most because I know what it’s like because I’ve lived it. It’s still a shit system that needs to disappear.
I don't disagree with anything you said. What i take issue with is people using it as justification for not tipping as if it somehow improves working conditions for those who depend on them.
I just stopped ordering delivery once my health improved. It got bad when I started seeing a service fee and still being asked to tip nearly a third of the bill
Modern tips are just service fees, except you can either pay them or be acknowledged as an asshole.
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