Just taking nudes is not really your fault. If you know how to safely store them.
You get fault Points for:
storing them unencrypted
storing them in unsafe places (online, in a publicly-available Folder on your Computer)
sending them to other people
sending them via unencrypted means
sending them via a avenue that makes backups
The Reason we recommend not taking nudes isn’t because it is your fault if you do, it’s because we know most people are tech-illiterate and don’t know how to safely handle dangerous/compromising Material.
How is labeling fault points fault points victim blaming you do realize when people talk about how something fails they typically use the term fault points to refer points where something was faulty like a worn tire being the reason a car crashed
Most people aren’t engineers, it read different to me. Especially when it’s used like “you get fault points for” it sounds more personal than saying “the fault points were”. It sounds a lot like saying someone is at “fault” to someone who hasn’t heard of “fault points” before
Yeah “no” exactly… no to sharing with people who are technology illiterate, have no ethics or loyalty to keep personal information confidential. As a guy who loves to receive nudes, it’s not worth it for most women honestly.
If you’re taking nudes for yourself and not to share… I think you’re in an extreme minority. People take nudes to share. And:
People suck. That person you’re in love with now might UN’s to being the person who burns your clothes when you break up with them.
Information wants to be free. This is what a lot of your points touch on, but the fact is, several companies have access to your data, and making digital copies is so trivial it’s often automatic.
Digital information is forever. Because of (2), once you take a nude, it’s harder to get rid of it than preserve it.
If you share it once, it’s not utterly out of your control. It might be out of the control of the person you share it with; at the very least, if you text it, some techs at your service provider are going to make copies. For gods sake, use E2E chat, people. Another point you raised about digital hygiene.
Yeah, the first panel is entirely justified. It’s like whining about how you shouldn’t have to lock your car doors when you park downtown.
I agree so I upvote, I’m just wondering what “UN’s” is supposed to be in point 1? It’s obviously bad autocorrect but I can’t figure out what it should be
Yeah, autocorrect, and I have no idea what it thought it was correcting to. Probably “end up.” The autocorrect on this keyboard is sort of context aware, so if it got “turn” wrong, then it is also likely to correct “up” to “to”. I’ve gotten some weird sentences out of it by not paying attention. Remember the fad when you’d create a sentence by just picking the next suggested word? I get that sometimes - it’s exacerbated by my use of swipe.
The keyboard is HeliBoard, and it’s probably the best one I’ve used since I quit using the default keyboards, but it does some strange stuff sometimes.
Now we’ve had this conversation, I’m going to have to leave the weird construction.
honestly my “solution” to the problem is damage control. No metadata on nudes, no face ever, no identifying bits of me on the photo (i either blur out or remove my tattoo in photoshop entirely, or i just don’t have it in the frame)
the liklihood of your nudes coming back to haunt you gets significantly decreased, when there’re seas upon oceans of similar photos online
If it’s the first time someone is told this, sure. If someone is asking not to be constantly harassed for having done this once, then that person is right. Once they’ve been told once, it’s plenty if education is the goal. If the person knows to tell you not to tell them that, they’ve been told once. If someone is asking that the guy who leaked the nudes be acted against, then that person is right. If someone is excusing shitting behavior because the victim should have protected themselves better, they are blaming the victim, shame on them.
As much as I hate WhatsApp - and I really, vehemently do - I’m pretty sure it is E2EE. Facebook/Meta doesn’t directly have access to the contents of your messages or shared media. If you have any evidence to suggest otherwise I’d love to see it.
Problem is, I don’t know if it’s still set up like this but it used to be that received photos were saved to your device gallery, and perhaps even backed up to the cloud with your camera photos, depending on your setup and device. So the photos might leak through there, but they don’t leak through Meta.
As I said, if you have any evidence to suggest that Facebook can decrypt it, I’d love to see it. It’s common knowledge that they use the Signal protocol, which to my interpretation means the encryption keys are generated and stored by the users’ devices, not accessible to FB.
I have to use whatsapp for work (I can’t believe it either) and yes, every photo sent to my work’s group chat is auto backed up to my phone’s local storage.
I think you’re confusing two things. The fact that yeah taking and especially sending nudes puts you at risk vs assigning blame. A lot of people seem to think saying the first means you’re doing the second for some reason.
If you can stomach it, the best way to beat it is to drown out their voices, and also block them. Suddenly it feels a lot better, and eventually it’s just trolls talking to each other, and everyone else talking with each other.
I think it’s mostly an interference with data privacy philosophy that is very strong on Lemmy, they are blaming people who are not careful about handing their data to companies in general, not only women, although they should be more clear to avoid your interpretation.
although they should be more clear to avoid your interpretation.
It’s literally in a thread where a guy tells women it’s their fault their nudes were leaked. I’m not sure what other ‘interpretation’ one would make here.
they are blaming people who are not careful about handing their data to companies in general
He says, in the comic, ‘don’t take any (nudes).’ Someone makes an analog video/takes pictures with someone/etc, and it gets moved revenge porn - by far the most frequent way (non-famous) people’s nudes are leaked - there’s not some data pirate or whatever stealing it, it’s someone with direct access to it. Unless we’re saying people should be psychic and know what everyone around them will do, there’s no way to 100% prevent this.
It’s literally in a thread where a guy tells women it’s their fault their nudes were leaked. I’m not sure what other ‘interpretation’ one would make here.
That’s a satire, not a promotion of this behavior. Unless I am the one misinterpreting this op.
I agree that the privacy issue is not only due to company/pirating but also bad behavior of recipients. So let me extend the point to handling private data to someone else in general. I’m not saying this point is the best, just that this is what most critical comments are about here, not the gender of the person.
Everyone stating that the first panel is a unisex rule has really not given it much thought.
Men are not punished for being sexual beings in our society nearly as harshly or frequently as women. A man is not likely to be branded a “slut” for the fact that their naked body exists and was allowed to be photographed.
Yes, it could cause men harm to steal and leak their naked photos, especially if it’s wielded as a weapon in a revenge porn scenario.
But no, men do not have an equal impact on them as women do in the case of having their nudes stolen and leaked.
And I am just going to venture a guess to say that the rule in the first panel has been said to or about women significantly more often than it has to men. I’ve only ever heard it said about female celebrities in the news.
I say this as a gay man who has tons of nude selfies and sex videos dating back 20 years or so. Every gay man I know has nudes. It’s an expected part of gay dating and hook up culture to have photos like that to share. If they were just leaked to some website I would most likely not be impacted at all in any way, even if friends found them.
The iPhone argument is genuinely valid though. If you find Apple’s business practices to be morally evil, the FairPhone is right there. There is nothing most people need an iPhone for that they couldn’t get from the FairPhone for a similar price.
there you have your answer. Families used to have one person working and the other taking care of the kids. Today, two people work, sometimes full time too. We have constant appointments, every day. The amount of stress is measurable and many studies show that we’re not doing too well mentally. Yet we still find the gall to blame individuals for greedflation and exploitation. Please dont be offended but I’m a little baffled that this is considered a valid opinion in 2024.
You’re telling me this is too much work for someone to do when they’re looking to buy a new phone? Keep in mind, I’m not talking about people who just dislike Apple a little bit. I’m talking about the people who know what Apple is doing and hate it but still but their products. 1000043070
I‘m sure you mean well but we‘re talking about two different things.
Obviously, there will always be entitled people who think everything has to be laid at their feet but that is a tiny minority imo. Assuming they’re significant in numbers is part of the problem.
Most people you come across are ignorant to the world how you see it. Thats a fact because nobody can know everything that you know, except if you know nothing which is impossible.
So, knowing that it is very lucrative to have dumb users, about shareholder primacy, about greed and its effect, about the effect of apples walled garden approach, about technical abilities of phones.
Can you imagine that many people in the world wont know all these things and/or dont understand why they should care. Especially since there are hundreds if not thousands of other things screaming for their attention.
And thats why I say manipulative marketing is 100% a systemic issue and needs to go. The customer can still have responsibility but they’re not to blame for being manipulated when they are just unable to know all facts.
The iphone argument in itself yes but it keeps us from solving the overarching issue. Manipulation works. 800 billion usd says so (ad revenue worldwide) and peeps need to understand that. Its not only 100% or 0% individual responsiblity. You can act responsible, yet be manipulated. This needs to be outlawed. Example: Happy people drinking alcohol. Why do you think smoking ads were stopped? because they didnt work?
Haha maybe I’m getting old, but people ITT don’t seem to understand that “taking nudes” and deciding who, if anyone, gets to see them should be a basic right of privacy and freedom.
You should be insulted by, and scrutinize the idea of being told what you can and can’t do with your body and your data, including nudes and beyond.
“Oooo uh, shouldn’t have taken nudes!” is incel rhetoric.
The problem isn’t the existence of nude photos. The problem is the existence of shitty people who spread those photos without your consent. And unlike a physical object, once those photos are out there, they cannot be put back. And it doesn’t even have to be someone you know. One bad public Wi-Fi connection and all your photos just got uploaded to a stranger’s server.
If the risk reward on that is okay with you then go have fun. We’ll commiserate with you when they get stolen. But we’re not going to pretend you didn’t create that possibility. Just like a free climber or a sky diver.
If you sabotaged someone’s parachute on purpose, you’d definitely be charged with a crime. Possibly murder.
Would that mean the jumper should’ve accounted for the possibility of someone wanting to murder them? Because if so, that argument could be applied to literally everything.
Just on the practical side of things though: the second you send out nudes, you lose control. I can save them, copy them, store them for 10 years and then post them on 4chan and there isn’t a thing you can do about that to stop me or even punish me. It’s easy to hide the source (me, in this example).
Yeah, you should have the right to do what you want, you should be able to be a pretty girl and walk naked in front of a bunch of fanatical Muslim terrorists if you want without having to feel afraid but, you know, not a great idea.
So you get to the point where you should be pragmatic and limit your wants and needs depending on the situation. Either that, or accept that trouble will find you
What I don’t get is that this attitude means we all get less nudes. If a woman doesn’t know that a man’s gonna treat her intimacy with respect, she’s going to hesitate before she does it. If we appreciated them enough not to leak them and not show them to others, women would have one less barrier and we’d all get more nudes.
This is the correct take, for everyone up voting the bullshit victim blaming throughout the thread. Glad I’m going in for a therapy appointment right now cuz holy shit
As a late zoomer, I agree with you 100%. Whilst it’s reasonable to advise that people take precautions and know the risks, there’s way too many people that are on the side of “Oooo uh, shouldn’t have taken nudes!”. There are way too many crimes that are so common nowadays that the victim just gets flippantly blamed for not looking out for themselves better.
Trying to give a more relatable example for the incels, how would you feel if you’d got a nice hefty bikelock, locked your bike up against a bike stand, and you come back an hour later to find that someone’s picked and stolen it? You knew the risks of leaving a bike unattended, you took what you thought were good enough precautions and it still got stolen. Is it your fault? Should you have just walked? Why did you even leave the house?
This has been my take forever. Maybe women want to take nudes and send them to a sweetheart or maybe she’s just feeling hot and proud of herself. Good for her. Doesn’t mean they should be available for the world to see, nor should she be victim-blamed.
Same for the sub-hominids who say a woman was asking for it after being raped because she dressed provocatively. Yeah, she might have been dressing in a way to attract someone, that’s the goddamn point. It’s her prerogative, and guess what: she has the final say as to who can interact with her. Fuck outta here with this “she was asking to get raped” bullshit. Grow up and learn some goddamn self control, it’s insulting to insinuate that we, as men, are a monolith and do not have any.
Straight up. Not to derail this and make it about men but I would be remiss not to add that the idea that men are incapable of controlling ourselves around women is sexist against men too.
It’s such a weird argument to throw men under the bus to justify victim-blaming women.
Absolutely; like I said, I find it deeply insulting and it absolutely is sexist. In the vein of “we cain’t have a wummun president because she’d start a war soon’s she gets her period”, we could say that “national security is threatened because the men can’t stop awooga-ing at that hot dame’s cans”. It’s patently ridiculous and we all should be offended by these idiots, christ.
I might get driven out of town for this but people claiming such things aren’t less than you. They are either massively ignorant and being lead on by psychopaths or they are deeply disturbed and need medical attention. They are not less than you, nobody and no living creature is, in fact.
Seeing others as less than ourselves or our group is the root cause for our predicament (wars, poverty, cruelty, social injustice, etc.). I’m not saying the situation is okay. I’m saying hate isnt the answer and it changes exactly nothing, which is exactly what we’re supposed to do. Instead we could start calling out our drinking buddies when they grab “dat hot ass” instead of cheering them on. Objectifying anyone (without their express approval) isnt an option.
No, I think I see what you’re saying and I agree, we all need to do better. Even when we hold views opposing that dumb sexist crap, it’s not enough merely to have those views, we should act on them and teach others to do so. I fully agree with the notion that young men today have terrible role models right now and we need to do better.
I look at it more on the level of discussing crimes via text or email or what have you. (I’m not saying sexting is or should be a crime. It’s an analogy).
If you don’t want it to get out, don’t document it. If you don’t care if it gets out, do whatever you want.
That’s not to say that it wouldn’t also be nice to have control over your own image nor that people shouldn’t go to jail for revenge porn, etc., but once it’s out there, it’s out there. You can’t put it back into Pandora’s box. That’s just how reality works.
Yeah, I get that part, it’s entirely too easy for shit to go wrong. But victim-blaming is tepid, wet garbage, and always points in the wrong direction. We need to get better, as a collective, at locking our data the fuck down, and slapping the shit out of the people who act maliciously with it.
See that’s the unique problem here. As long as there’s a method of sharing photos there’s going to be a way to compromise that system. And corporations aren’t built around data privacy. They’re built around selling data. So not only do they have an access route for your friends, they’ve left an access route for themselves too. All a bad guy has to do is spoof that connection and they can pull everything. That’s not something you can get rid of until you get rid of capitalism.
I’m really not following your reasoning in this thread. Are you arguing that we would have a way to securely transfer nude images to another individual and prevent them from distributing that image if such a technology created value for shareholders? And we can’t do that because it doesn’t?
We can’t even protect it on your device. The capitalism thing is the why of it all. There’s more value to just marketing something as secure than to actually writing and testing stuff thoroughly. As a result corporations just don’t do security very well at any level unless it’s required by the government and the penalty is complete loss of revenue. But you only see that in military contracting and Banks.
Sometimes we take the wrong choices because we aren’t perfectly logical machines. Sure thing everyone (yeah me as well y’know) could use some extra precaution, but you can’t blame people for that. Aim at the criminals, not the victims. That equals saying that you can’t make mistakes, in a way it’s true but it’s often a justification for victim blaming.
My cousin told one of his employees that she shouldn’t talk or make friends with men other than her SO, and that she should have known what was going to happen. This was immediately following said employee being kissed and groped by a man that she had only ever been nice to.
My cousin is a man who believes that immigrants and women are at fault for the decline of western society. I’m sure he feels that way about LGBTQ+ folks too. Of course they adhere to the mindless horny ape narrative. These people look for any excuse to exercise and hone their bigotry.
And the smokers should have the right for a cigarette without fear of a lung cancer, yet here we are… Life is unfair, and every step you take to protect yourself counts.
If lung cancer had sentience and self control, I’d be all for hunting it down, arresting it and publically shaming it before blaming smokers, but AI-driven smoke particles are still a few years out.
Haha maybe I’m getting old, but people ITT don’t seem to understand that “taking nudes” and deciding who, if anyone, gets to see them should be a basic right of privacy and freedom.
You should be insulted by, and scrutinize the idea of being told what you can and can’t do with your body and your data, including nudes and beyond.
“Oooo uh, shouldn’t have taken nudes!” is incel rhetoric.
Besides, with what deepfakes can do, the whole argument is flawed from the beginning, as we know that the image of a victim can be used without her knowledge, or even without nudes in the first place. It’s a violation of trust, with permanent effects on the victims…that cannot be undone even with the best efforts.
… You know, reading some of the replies and attitudes here towards the nudes part, the phrase “It’s her fault for dressing so provocatively” comes to mind.
Edit: Compassion 101, because apparently we’re doing this:
You have no right to tell anyone what to do with their body provided that everyone consents and fully understands the situation.
If you know things that they might have missed, gently let them know, but back off if they don’t want your input.
If something bad happens to someone, even if it is their fault, for the love of god don’t lecture them on how it was their fault. Give them emotional support and advice on how to fix things, not what they should have done in the past.
You are free to take and send nudes, but with how shit some people are and how much shit gets hacked, you’re taking a risk with that move that those photos get leaked.
That just attracts certain creeps even more. They like nudes of unattractive people because it is its own kind of a validation that her boyfriend entirely demolished her trust for him (and that’s a big kink of them), because there’s no way she’s couldn’t tell she’s not attractive and therefore wouldn’t want everybody to body-shame her and that’s why she shared the pictures with utmost trust.
I have seen such degenerates. They make incredibly disgusting and disheartening comments on the victim.
Given the state of privacy we have and how companies treat security, I’d rather compare it to going shopping while leaving the door of your house wide open. Yes, if something gets stolen, the thieve is still the criminal. It is still not a great idea. I’d say no nudes or do it with an analogue camera and develop the photos yourself. I’d also say, this rule is unisex.
Yeah, but the correct response to that is “okay, you should have checked that the door was locked before you headed off” rather than “well, you should never leave your house because the lockpicking lawyer can unlock doors in seconds”.
It’s a massive overcorrection imo to say that because there’s a chance they might get leaked then it’s her “fault” for doing it in the first place.
It’s also misogynistic as hell to blame a woman because she trusted a man who betrayed that trust.
I think the key thing people need to realize here is that digital security on consumer devices is not a priority for any corporation. So it’s like you closed your door, but it’s actually just a sheet of cardboard. It looks really good, most people think it’s a wooden door. But it’s not.
Who is blaming? It is simply a warning. If you take nudes (male or female or diverse) expect it to appear somewhere. We don’t have privacy, privacy is a thing of the past.
That would only be an equivalent if you had the alternative of storing all your belongings in your own personal extradimensional space which is inaccessible to the thief, but instead chose to leave all your valuables sitting on your coffee table. It should be safe there, but it’s going to be a lot safer if it doesn’t occupy the same realm as the thief or the shitty lock.
The difference is that your house and TV are physical. You can try to secure them but, there’s nowhere else to put them.
Unless you are snapping polaroids or using actual film, nude selfies are not physical things, just data. Data that exists purely offline is going to be as secure as any physical object, but data on a connected device or in a server somewhere is only as secure as the weakest link in the chain. Given the evaporation of privacy and the ever increasing trend of connecting accounts and storing everything in the cloud, and the overabundance of permissions that apps demand, it takes consistent effort to keep your data secure.
How would you treat a picture of your credit card info? Or all your logins and passwords? Would you be comfortable just leaving it in your phone’s picture gallery? Would you knowingly store it in an icloud or onedrive account? Who would you be comfortable sending it to? How would you send it? Do you trust that other person’s data security practices?
If you’re going to have a credit card, you should be aware of the potential risks so that you can protect yourself. It’s not all or nothing, there will always be some risk but the key is to be aware so you can make informed decisions and manage that risk. The same goes for any data which you want to remain private, including nudes.
Owning vs not owning is binary, all or nothing, a strict dichotomy.
Data security and risk management is a vast spectrum of possibilities. We all make decisions about those risks, whether we acknowledge it or not. The risk is real, but not completely beyond our control. The more aware we are of the actual risks, and of the ways in which those risks can be mitigated, the more prepared we can be to make informed decisions. It’s not just whether or not you do something, but also how you do it.
Ignoring risks doesn’t negate them. Privacy violations shouldn’t happen, but that doesn’t mean they won’t. The violator is the one who is wrong, the victim doesn’t deserve it, but that doesn’t undo what happened to them to make them the victim. Maybe we can make a better world someday where these things don’t happen, but until we do, this the reality we have to live with, and all we can do is exercise our best judgement.
If you give someone something, you can’t really control what they do with it and if you don’t want them to have that power or don’t trust them not to abuse it you probably shouldn’t give that to them in the first place, as a general principle. This applies equally to a woman’s nudes, a guy’s nudes, your house keys, etc.
And I’d keep anything even vaguely sensitive info-wise protected by a strong password as a minimum as an at least mild deterrent for internet weirdos that you aren’t actually giving the thing to. Because you can go after said weirdos, but you can’t put the genie back in the bottle.
And I love unisex rules that apply almost exclusively to women!
…only because no one has any empathy for a guy whose pics get used in ways he doesn’t want. Basically it’s not that the rule isn’t really unisex, but that people only care when the possible bad result happens to a woman (or some flavor of non-cis person).
Hell, there are Facebook groups that in a practical sense mostly function to let women who are unhappy drag on their exes and try to ruin potential future relationships for them, couched in claims that they exist to protect women from predators. Including occasionally passing around nudes of the dudes in question, if they think it’ll get mocked. Those are unlikely to be going anywhere, and any serious attempt to remove them will get reported on as creepy dudes on the internet trying to harass women into no longer being able to protect themselves from creepy dudes on the internet.
Given the state of privacy we have and how companies treat security, I’d rather compare it to going shopping while leaving the door of your house wide open.
He literally says “never take any selfies” in the comic. ‘Going shopping and leaving your door open’ doesn’t make any sense in this context. What if you take a selfie, and (safely, however that would be) give it to your partner.
Five years later you break up and they post it online. How is that ‘leaving the door to your house open’ exactly?
What about making an analog video with a partner, again you break up later, and it’s put online. Is that ‘leaving the door to your house open’?
Or are you agreeing with the comic and saying women (or anyone really) should never ever take pictures/videos/etc of themselves naked/otherwise compromised, because the image/etc could go online?
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