I was reflecting yesterday on how many cyclists on the UC Davis campus I saw doing the same self-centered, unsafe things I see drivers do.
And I know it's because most are drivers who are self-centered, and reckless.
I reflected on how, if we want more people to leave cars at home, we're going to be dealing with exactly this unless we find a way to educate, carrot & stick safer, more community-minded culture in new cyclists. #BikeTooter#Cycling
@meganL probably needs to be done primarily with infrastructure, if the education and enforcement we've done for drivers is any indication of how well those work.
@enobacon I'm not saying it can't also be done with infrastructure, but culture matters. The culture of the internet changed dramatically when AOL hooked up to it. Prior to that, there was a lot of peer pressure to keep netiquette values in place. But the numbers overwhelmed that culture.
People did used to behave differently with the same infrastructure.
@meganL AOL was infrastructure, like a freeway offramp into your neighborhood, and before that the drivers were different people, the culture was a different context. The bikeway network is infrastructure, whether people have a nice fast way to get where they're going or they're forced to choose between a painted bike lane on a stroad vs cutting through a park on the sidewalk. Induced Demand operates at multiple levels of granularity, infrastructure shapes behavior, desire lines etc.
@meganL it's not that I think it's the only possible tool, it's that we design the environment so very poorly and then try to educate or enforce upstream against human nature / social dynamics that are caused by improper design. I hear so often "don't try to solve people problems with technology" but constantly see wasted effort to solve technology problems with people. It's probably a cultural problem, maybe we could teach people to do better 😂
@enobacon I've been putting in the work, largely left without support from the broader abled cycle community, on documenting the infrastructure problems (including car-centric MUP design), putting political pressure on UC Davis TAPS, writing them, meeting with them, being an activist. I'm not sure how much more you need me to demonstrate, esp given that I do a lot for someone with my disabilities, poverty, and lack of social support.
@meganL you're doing great, keep up the good work. Infrastructure is not something most people can do alone, ironically, that's a thing for organizing and educating people. We all do what we're able to contribute. Sorry if what I wrote seems to say otherwise.
And I apologize for taking your comments personally if they were meant more generally.
I do agree with Nila that this could be an interesting discussion for a future #BikeNitePQ
I think we'll need to use things in addition to infrastructure changes. And folks are likely going to have a lot of different ideas and opinions on what it should be and how to implement it.
@meganL@enobacon Saw this conversation go by yesterday, came to add My Valuable Opinions. I generally favor infrastructure, because (retail) enforcement seems corruptible, and education depends on people wanting to be educated. HOWEVER, biking in Amsterdam was eye-opening in several ways, and one was how the biking default there was to not-yield to pedestrians.
@meganL@enobacon A Theorem Of Mine is that the division of public space into car lane vs cycle lane vs foot lane is an offshoot of car culture, and car size/speed/danger requiring reserved space, and everyone else's reaction to that (this theorem fails for streetcars). And if I could educate cyclists, it would be that they should get over their reserved-space view of the world, and instead adopt don't-collide and don't-bother the lower-energy modes (i.e., yield to peds, pass behind peds).
@dr2chase@meganL the education and enforcement is certainly different in the Netherlands, but I'm not sure about not-yielding to peds. Are you sure that wasn't more of a waiting, like how people here won't step off the curb until cars go by? (Almost like with their nose to a wall.) If people keep walking, I yield / go behind them, but don't stop to ask if they would like to cross now (often drivers will blow by while you do this anyway.) Do peds often get mowed down by ppl on bikes there?
@enobacon@meganL didn't see any down-mowing, but to me it looked like it was approximately rude, and the peds were definitely delaying their forward progress before crossing, and bike stops for them would have been easy.
@dr2chase@enobacon@meganL My experience was that it depends on the context. If it’s a bike lane, then the pedestrian yields. (Shark’s teeth on pavement) If it’s a mixed zone of walking and rolling, then it’s a dance because everyone is going slow enough. I think NL does have some direction about this — having to do with the fact that it’s usually easier for a pedestrian to pause than a person with a cycle.
@mmb@dr2chase@meganL do they actually point sharks teeth at pedestrians? I think if you have enough operating space, & not in platoons of bike traffic, that pedestrians can mostly just continue walking across and people on bikes are able to slightly vary speed or direction to miss them. The reluctance to step off of a curb by peds in the US is kind of offensive to me, the way people stand, as servants would turn to face a wall, waiting for cars to pass. People who bike may walk differently.
@enobacon@dr2chase@meganL I don’t think there are sharks teeth for pedestrians, but there are other indicators about which travel mode has the priority at an intersection. Eg zebra crossing = pedestrian priority. It depends on the kinds of roads and streets involved.
This info is for cyclists new to NL 👉 https://holland2stay.com/blog/dutch-cycling-rules.html
@enobacon I’m usually reluctant to step off the curb for survival reasons: I’m going to make certain those morning drivers are going to stop for the HAWK light on a 4 lane stroad with posted 😉 speed of 35mph so I can get to my bus stop.
@mmb not every crossing has a red light that actually requires drivers to stop, e.g. at a flashing beacon, they're not technically required to stop until you've put a toe or something past the curb. I understand not stepping right in front of a fast-moving car, but if you're just standing there, nobody has to stop. Some people just keep standing there, so even nice drivers just quit trying.
@enobacon@dr2chase@meganL Here’s a summary of an intersection from each of the three travel perspectives via Mark at Bicycle Dutch. (Video link at bottom of his blog post)
@mmb@dr2chase@meganL so that has an unbroken bike path over the crosswalks, no indication of whether people walking or biking have priority. I assume ambiguity would default to the pedestrian first, but I'm sure there's an empathy for the momentum of the person on a bike, that most wouldn't want to impose on someone who is almost past.
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