I feel like the idea that women are otherworldly creatures instead of people and seeing someone being nice to their partner as “the man having tamed a female and convinced her to treat him well” has a lot to do with his problem.
I hate how much that is preserved socially, there’s no good reason why that hasn’t gone away at least a decade or two ago.
Cool! I didn’t know I was getting good numbers. That’s how I read the thing but you’re welcome to disagree, I certainly don’t read “convinced a woman to touch him gently” as someone recognizing the woman is a person who might’ve chosen to do so without convincing the same way she chose to rub his shoulders too.
OOP is a 30yo forever alone virgin posting to 4chan, I think this kind of perception of women is par for the course. At least the outcome wasn’t totally terrible and he walked away without offending anyone, probably the best we could hope for.
It's possible they have harmful views but my coworker gets along with another person enough to be their life-partner might be what they mean but is not how people talk. Well, maybe they should (or otherwise say they don't gel well with others/intimacy) if it's so likely that people are going to jump to conclusions.
I'd assume that most misogynists would frame it by insulting the coworker/wife (at least in their post), not admitting how sad they are or that they cried and left.
If it wasn’t clear, I wasn’t saying he’s the most horrible person in the world but rather that his issue is most likely linked to the way he sees women.
I also could’ve sworn I made a point about it being a societal issue rather than just that individual’s
It’s learned helplessness. Once they get rejected 15 times in a row for being a weirdo or something similar, they start to think in that instead of either reflecting back on the experience and trying to be better, or looking elsewhere.
Simply going from zero self improvement to nonzero may not be enough. That’s why we call a situation like this a hole. A person in a hole needs to climb to get to ground level.
Yes. Being isolated is a result and a cause of strange views of other people.
It’s a positive feedback loop that one needs to accept massive discomfort — on the part of the re-integrating person and on the part of the normal people they’re re-integrating with — in order to escape.
Avoidance of disturbing others is a key part of men self isolating.
“Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.”
This pain and shame is a universal experience for those who plan to make big changes in life, and I hope that poster who got a taste of freedom works his way loose of what burdens him. That shame, that perspective on women being so alien to him, that score keeping of virginity and touch. Shame is so unhelpful, and change is a natural element of human life. You can do it!
The reason why channers shouldn’t be allowed to partake in society, as a single image.
Why? Just because you enjoy kicking people when they’re down? To punish someone for never having gained any experience because no-one ever took a chance on them?
At least this channer is fully aware of his problem. And he never rejected experience – those that could have given it to him rejected him due to his lack of it.
You cannot peacefully and ethically acquire what others refuse to provide to you. That goes equally as much for experience with intergender emotional connections as it does for intergender physical intimacy.
At worst he is to be pitied, because most women who are age-appropriate for him will be revolted by his inexperience; his only current utility to most women at this point will be as an ATM and/or surrogate father to children who are not genetically his. His only statistically significant chance for true happiness is to become intrinsically motivated and go his own way.
Because he’s got the emotional intelligence of a child, just like you. Oh, and because channers are pretty much all raving lunatics, there’s that as well.
To anyone who is in the position of anon, the task is simple, just spend time with them. Treat them like people, which is what they are, instead of something to be won or to be won over.
Mutual respect, common principles, and a spark is all that’s really needed. Understand that while you may be interested, they might not be. Would you really want to be with someone who doesn’t genuinely want to be with you? Probably not, so just keep going. You’ll get that spark eventually and things will kick off. Until then, be a good person and treat everyone with respect.
The whole confidence game is a bit misleading too. Confidence comes from being proud of yourself, more than anything. If you’re not proud of yourself, perhaps that’s an area to improve. Do things that you’ll be proud of, and become someone who is confident in the process. Understand that not everyone will be impressed by your achievements, and that’s ok. It’s not a competition.
Any person who will shame others for their interests probably aren’t worth knowing.
If you have serious struggles with confidence and relationships, there’s no shame in seeking help with the council of a friend or from a professional.
To anyone who is in the position of anon, the task is simple, just spend time with them. Treat them like people, which is what they are, instead of something to be won or to be won over.
For OP, who is lacking massively in experience with both intergender emotional connections as well as intergender physical intimacy, your methods are unlikely to work anymore. Most age-appropriate women for him are going to be looking for an experienced man, and will be revolted by his lack of experience.
And yes, even my wife (46) confirmed this in a recent conversation last year, and she’s pretty darn progressive. Beyond a certain age - usually around 22, but it differs with each woman - most women start getting turned off by any inexperience a man might have with emotional and physical intimacy. By this age, women begin to want and prefer an experienced man who has proven his worth with prior relationships.
Why? Because an older man without experience practically screams “I am an exceptionally poor choice for you” precisely because no other woman has decided to take a chance on him – this is an actual preselection sexual strategy found in almost all women.
Sure, he might still find someone. But at his age, the likelihood that he’ll be chosen for any reason other than being an ATM and/or a surrogate father to children who aren’t his, is statistically about as close to 0% as he can get. He has about as much chance of finding a truly good and loving woman (who is still single, childless, and not below the half-plus-seven rule) as he does winning the Powerball several times in a row.
You start off strong and then go fully off the incel cliff at the end there
Ah, yes. Because resorting to an ad hominem is just such a good option when a reasoned counter argument is impossible to provide.
Interesting how you reach for a tool used almost exclusively to shame men into compliance with the narrative. Especially since it is impossible for me to be an incel in the first place - I am married, FFS. I just refuse to be blind to reality and facts.
I agree that it limits the number of woman that might be options.
But you are making it sound neat impossible. And that that is just not true.
Somebody will be out there who sees something in op. It might take a bit to find her, but honestly, as long as he learned to treat her as a human beeing and not as an asset to aquire he’ll be good.
I met my wife with 36 while she was 38. There are reasons she was single. There where reasons I was a single.
We have been the happiest couple I can imagine and I can’t fathom how much luck I had.
Don’t give up. Learn to be a descent humans. The rest will fall into place eventually.
You’re making one very serious assumption that ruins your entire argument.
You assume that all women 22+ are going to have the same opinion as your wife.
You’re assuming that I’m speaking exclusively about lonely men, not even stopping to consider that the advice I gave would have any use to women.
Factually, there are plenty of lonely women, ladies who may never have been kissed, etc. The difficulties that would lead someone to be in the position of being, for lack of a better term, a 40 year old virgin, are not exclusive to men.
There are entire communities dedicated to people who are “forever alone” (so far), with other people who are the same.
And that’s not even considering all of the other types of intimate relationships people can have.
It’s so arrogant to think that your small, isolated and anecdotal experience is the only way things are, or could be. Then you use that anecdote to essentially tell people who are in that position that they’re essentially without hope. How cruel. Even if your words had merit, throwing in the face of people trying to give people genuine advice is simply one of the worst things you could have done.
Clearly, your mother never told you that “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all”.
Can someone get me in contact with green text anon guy? I’m a licensed massage therapist, I’m a woman, my hobbies are working out and he likes working out too and it was so poignant how he responded to that massage and he appreciates women and massage and health and his reaction to being the sad lonely third wheel was so heartbreaking and he deserves love.
He's behind 7 proxies, and at least one of them is emotional. In scientific probable reality he doesn't even exist.
Also not sure if it's a joke or some other angle, but there's lots of dudes out there (and on here) like that but I wouldn't expect it to ever work out well (if any offer was even accepted). It'd be long/difficult process even for doctors/therapists to fix people like this up with today's options. Maybe volunteer somewhere instead (if you don't already).
I’m a licensed massage therapist and even I’m picky about who touches me and who massages me. Some people have a good intuitive touch and some people have a toxic creepy selfish touch.
And when I massage other people professionally, I’m still a human, and there’s still a few moments at the beginning where we both have to melt into a healing therapeutic mindset.
Again, I say I have received some pretty shitty massages before, to the point I rarely if ever want to receive another massage again, but I have no idea what it feels like for other people when I massage them other than the feedback they give me, or they leave feedback with my manager at the front desk and/or on anonymous computer form, and the feedback has been all positive and clients request me and return for more.
Oh, I trust you, I’m not saying you shouldn’t do what you love and are great at doing.
I guess as someone that can relate to OP, it’s not appropriate to open up about such deep emotional feelings to someone who isn’t in a position to handle them, i.e. your coworkers wife, or anyone really that you don’t trust more than anything, which for most men is their partner.
Maybe just a platonic massage where a guy can just have a good cry for an hour would help. For me personally though that would be difficult as like I said, trust is huge and I generally want to build that with someone that also wants to continue that. With therapists the trust is legally there so I’m at least more comfortable with that fact with them.
Yes, that’s what I specialize in. Platonic massages. They are so healing.
But let me be clear here, I’m just babbling on a discussion forum and I have no hope or intention of meeting anyone here, I’m just discussing how that green text made me feel.
I guess I don’t really know what different types of massages are, I’ve never had one as it doesn’t appeal to me. Maybe if men like OP knew about massages that are more about just touch with another person, maybe more emotional release than a like physical therapy massage, then they might seek that. I’ve never seen or heard of that type of thing. I think it would certainly appeal to a lot of guys, but that’s also essential targeting the most difficult demographic you could. It’s like the cure is the problem.
Yeah it’s inevitable, massage is emotionally healing as well as physically healing, as long as the person allows themselves to completely relax & surrender.
Honestly I’ve had some clients who stay rigid & talkative the whole time, which makes it impossible for them to relax & feel the physical & emotional benefits but even then it’s okay because that’s where they are right now, and over time with repeated sessions they will learn how to relax if they want to.
I agree. The man behaved inappropriately. The question is whether a man who behaves inappropriately should then he ostracized as a result, or whether people who are doing better should learn to ride out the discomfort from the inappropriate behavior.
It’s all a personal choice. Nobody should ever be forced into helping. But for each person, cultivating the ability to help will lead to a more meaningful life.
I really like helping people, and I guess I have whatever it is that makes people so comfortable opening up to me. I get that I have the ability to help so many people, but honestly, holy shit is it tiring. People just open up and tell me so much, it’s exhausting knowing so much about people. Like at work everyone opens up to me about whatever is stressing them out, other coworkers, family, outside things I have no reason to know. If anything, letting people trauma dump is easy, it’s carrying that information afterwards. They go back to just walking around behaving the same but I know everyones secrets as to why they aren’t.
Some people have a good intuitive touch and some people have a toxic creepy selfish touch.
So true.
There’s also the cold disconnected robotic touch, going through motions regardless of the receiver’s response.
I’m not a professional, but for me when I massage someone, there’s usually a lot of empathy involved.
I end up immersing myself in how they feel, how their body reacts, kinda trying to imagine their pains and aches like they were mine.
Idk, I’ve never really thought about it and I’m not sure I have the words to describe that.
Melting with a person who doesn’t melt is a skill. It’s not just a binary working-or-it’s-not situation. It’s like hitting a target with an arrow. More practice leads to more success, and to success in places where only failure was before.
He’s definitely a real person. So real that millions can identify with how he was feeling. The fact that he verbalized it so well makes him even more precious. His feelings are real and valid and he deserves love. And millions of others just like him.
TBC that was a reference*, though I warped it a little as I was trying to imply that he isn't emotionally present (to an extreme degree), not that it's a fake story or anything like that.
And yes of course everybody deserves love but that's easier said than done when people are broken. And whatever you're thinking w/your original comment I could see maybe helping, maybe too uncomfortable for them, or maybe they get emotionally attached in a way that ends up making you uncomfortable. Lots to go wrong and I don't thing the massage is really the point. They could've easily broken down from... any other kind gesture really.
*= full quote: "this man has been re-living the same second for a hundred years. This particular issue is all in his head. But it's in our heads too. We all share his condition in a way. In scientific probable reality he doesn't even exist. ARE YOU CONFUSED?" (note from David Firth, a bit weird/morbid animations, but fittingly it's from the episode called The Unfixable Thought Machine. Though I reference this often, it's not particularly relevant to the actual thinking of my comment otherwise.)
Just sayin’ anyone who’s suffering and not irreparably broken yet, and can still articulate the feelings and reach out, we need to get together and heal each other.
Just sayin’ anyone who’s suffering and not irreparably broken yet, and can still articulate the feelings and reach out, we need to get together and heal each other.
why are people here talking about fixing? What ecactly are the things he’s told that need fixing? That he’s nervous to ask women to go on a date? How does this mean he needs fixing? I’m sorry can we stop pretending we need to be perfect before having a relationship?
The amount of pressure this puts into people is crazy, if you have obvious problems you should ofc fix them but a ton of times having someone by your side and them having you can help tons if you both are sincere and communicating.
Just stop it please, this dude showed nothing wrong, if anything how he realized he misses being in love with someone, my god.
Because somebody who has been alone for their entire life (at 30) probably isn't just nervous. Particularly with the crying and leaving with touch, that's probably a deeper issue even just from the solitude alone. And if he misses love it wasn't requited, mentioned at the beginning with khv (no hug/hand-holding).
But yeah, OOP is probably better off than me and I'm projecting. Not saying anything about perfection, just that a random meetup/fix-up is odd and OOP probably needs a little therapy and/or some other form of help, and I'm guessing based on their own words that they know that (easier said than done).
That’s painful to read as I’ve been there. Hell I’ve even been there while in a relationship that was in troubled waters before. It’s hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel sometimes, but I promise it’s there.
You might wanna try dating apps, its often easier than most would like to meet swingers and couples looking for their third, their unicorn. But negotiating a threesome is more difficult than most of them are ready for.
Oh you sweet bean. I really want to comment on this and not be dismissive. But I am quite old and very sexualy experimental. I’m polyam with two partners and I’ve been a bull for couples before. But thank you for trying to direct people that maybe less knowledgeable then myself. Keep being kind!
That gave me pause, too. But I have a family member who bought a house at around 19 - a fixer upper in a semi rural area in Georgia (the US state) with a down-payment from his family. His dad helped him repair it and make it liveable. So that's lending some verisimilitude to the story.
It’s possible in a very rural area with mommy and daddy’s help, but it’s definitely not ‘finding happiness’.
Owning a house means being house poor, can’t buy what you want because all your money is spent maintaining your property. That’s stressful.
Getting married in your early 20s is also a recipe for disaster, you change too much in that time period and have no idea what you really want out of life. FOMO starts to hit as 30 approaches and both partners blame one another for trapping them in an isolated home with no money and the next 50 years looking exactly like the last 10 did.
It’s not always mommy and daddy though. My fiance busted her ass and saved up and was able to make the down payment herself when we got our house. Definitely not easy, but not entirely impossible. And yes, I know we’re lucky, I am grateful for what I have.
Yeah when I was 16 I had a 19 year old girlfriend who owned her own place. It wasn’t a small place either, 5 bedrooms, 2 bath, large living room and an entertainment room.
She bought it for 20,000 in a tiny rural neighborhood in the middle of nowhere. It was always packed with young people partying. One day she got married, had kids, and raised them there.
She sold the house about 5 years ago for 60k and used that as a nice down payment on a nice house in the middle of town.
She got the place for a damn good price. It was in an old mining town and had been cared for since the 60s by a housekeeper for a rich family who left when the mines went under. I’m not joking, when we went to look at the place it was a time capsule. It had magazines in baskets in the kitchen from the 60s. The decor hadn’t been changed. The woman who lived there kept to her one room and maintained the rest of the house. It had the color tv the owners bought in the late 60s, a bookshelf with old encyclopedias, the original washing machine and classic stove. The guy who owned it was the owner of the local cable company and there was a building full of old cable hardware. He had a washing room built outside for the lady who stayed there where she kept her personal belongings. It was a large room with an attic. Hell, someone could have lived in there honestly.
It was amazing. Kind of broke my heart to see it changed.
My fiance put the down payment on our house and had us moving in when she was 23, so it’s definitely possible even on meager income. We don’t have the nicest house in the world, but it’s good enough and we got lucky on the timing, it would cost us a lot more now, only 5 years later.
Just said his house. At no point did I interpret this to mean he owned it. If your a renter you still refer to it a my house when inviting people over.
I have quite a bit of sympathy for this man. Never being loved or touched makes for a broken mind. As repugnant it is to say I’m relieved he turned his misery into self hatred rather than anger to those around him. Hopefully he will either find someone or ages out of the desire for romantic companionship thus ending his turmoil.
What the fuck are you talking about. Self hate is surely not helpful for anything and definetly not for finding people that like you or turing into a decent person. smh
Self hate can go three ways: deterioration, motivation, or repression.
Deterioration is the worst outcome for the individual. Self hate becomes learned helplessness which can cripple a person’s mental state.
Motivation is usually the most productive. Using that self hatred as a starting point to address personal issues. The original author stated they were going to the gym on the regular, considering what they wrote I would conjecture self hatred might be the motivation there.
Repression varies in harm to an individual. You either accept and move on about negative aspects about yourself or you ignore them outright. It’s the bottling up of negativity, not addressing the underlying issues. This is the way some people handle criticism, which can be disastrous for society when powerful people keep adopting this method.
Now to address your statement about self hatred not being helpful for finding someone or becoming a decent person; not processing negative emotions isn’t healthy and a girlfriend isn’t going to be a magic fix for the author to be happy.
Nice long paragraph. First you tell the reader that self hate has three different outcomes without any backup for your presumptuous claims and then you want them to take the rest at faith value too. Thats asking a little bit too much.
There are many sources for motivation and i would dare claim self hate is not motivating anyone. Overcoming self hate might give you motivation but thats the key aspect. Its like saying being poor or starving are good motivations. No they are not. Getting better is.
Your whole wall of text sounds like something a mediocre motivation guru would tell people on youtube. If you ask me, you are talking out of your ass, maybe because you overcame your own self hate (which i very much hope).
If you would tell me you struggle with self hate i would tell you to get help. Professional if you can manage.
I’m one of the loneliest people in the world. I’ve been this way for decades. Whether or not I understand loneliness I can’t say, but I’ve got plenty of experience in it.
We can tell. Keep it to yourself. Your misery only demonstrates you’re deeply out of touch. It does not give you special wisdom or understanding of how other people operate or feel, no matter how much you like to imagine it.
Not the person you responded to, but I'm someone who thinks a therapist would be helpful or life enhancing for many people. Pretty much half the people I know are or have been in therapy (and I say half because that's about the number who have mentioned it to me).
Re the person in the OP, I would imagine that there's something psychological causing (ETA: or exacerbating) his issues. He's 30 and has never been kissed, cried uncontrollably at the platonic touch of a friend's wife, and seems to be in crisis over the incident and the fact that his 22 year old friend has a happy marriage. If it's not something that could be worked in in therapy, what do you think would help him otherwise?
I think a lot of them don’t believe therapy can change anything about their situation.
They don’t think it has anything to do with their mental health. They believe that them being lonely, unwanted and unworthy of love is just the natural state of things and all they can do is learn to cope with it. And as long as they can function and get by most days, that’s as good as it will ever get for them. So in their logic, therapy makes no sense because there’s nothing to improve.
The very low default state of being is very accurate. It’s how you survive when things are that bad, you can’t hope things will get better because that won’t happen and it will only push you lower than you already were when you inevitably give that hope up again. You are incapable of being close to people, because it’s just not possible to support you. You’ll just end up dragging them down. Trying to find a relationship is just not something you’re capable of, and yet you still resent the loneliness. You either blame yourself and the depression gets worse, or you blame the people you couldn’t have a relationship with anyways because you can’t try and really go down the road to inceldom.
It’s not like most people going through this are unaware of their mental health problems. It’s just that the thought patterns you’re stuck in keep you stuck in them. Getting help seems like a herculean task, and you will never have the strength to attempt it.
Probably the biggest one is cost for therapy (or waiting lists, scheduling, paperwork, transportation/distance, or thinking it's not gonna do much especially if they have other untreated issues).
And get help where? I have different issues which I even have a proper diagnosis for and even then no therapist will even put me on a waiting list. The few times I have gotten in to see a therapist I only got a few sessions before they all basically started shoving me out the door. I’m mostly functional and not actively suicidal so I’m just not a priority. They all have people with worse issues that need to be helped so I’m at the bottom of the triage list. OOP is working, excercising, and socializing. They’re even more functional than I am. No therapist is going to so much as give them the time of day if my experience is anything to go by.
I don’t know in what state psychological help is where you live, but today the are more options for that than ever before. But yeah I’m sure it’s difficult.
I’m in the US and actually in a state where medical care is literally world class (I live less than an hour from the Mayo Clinic) so I’m probably even more lucky than most people as far as options go.
A lot of the issue is what insurance will cover. I can’t afford to pay a couple hundred dollars out of pocket every week to talk to a therapist. But the options my insurance covers also just so happen to be the options everyone elses insurance covers so they are all booked solid with people who are in far more critical condition than me. In general there just aren’t enough therapists to go around so those that are available need to focus where they are most needed first. I get that. It’s literally no different than hospital triage. It’s just hard not to see it as being told that your issues aren’t bad enough that anyone cares. Or even worse, maybe you’re just faking it.
I am/was in a similar situation. Getting better is such an insurmountable thing when you’re there. When things have been so bad for so long that they’re not just normal but comfortable in a terrible way, just telling a friend about it is extremely difficult to do. Even if you can gather together the will to try to seek out professional help, you probably won’t keep it long enough to actually make that far. And, some part of you that you’re desperately trying to keep quiet is telling you that if getting help is that easy then you’ve just wasted your life laying around being helpless and useless and shitty when it could have been better and that’s something else weighing down the “kill yourself” side of the scale. You’ve been accepting it and coping with it for so long that it’s the only future you can ever see yourself having.
I will say that healing is not a switch to be flicked, but a process (often painstakingly long). And one of the first steps in that process is being very realistic with ourselves about what problems we have, how they are affecting us, and where they come from. In this sense, talking about them is very relevant.
That really sucks… wish you got the support you deserved/hope you get the support you need…
I don’t know you as well as your therapist and it might sound kinda dumb, but have you tried anything like yoga? Even small things like passing a ball back and forth with someone can put you into your body and out of your mind, hopefully letting you relax a bit, which might help your mind on average be more calm.
Complaining could be a start? Maybe a better start world be to just do something that’s risky. I don’t know. There is no reason to live in pain like that.
Maybe change your therapist. Because it is possible to be happy, it is possible to go beyond yourself and get to experience what you want. It’s possible. Are you afraid, or too ashamed to try to change.
At least try to find out why you are doing things you are doing.
What’s the point in complaining about something when you’re stuck in the situation and nobody is going to do anything to help anyways?
Yep, this is likely what you're working on in therapy - the sadness and disappointment and maybe even depression that come after complaining and people do not support you or meet your needs. You were placed in a really unfair (ETA: and probably overwhelming and stressful) situation- raising yourself and your brother without people helping you. I'm sending you an electronic hug, Internet stranger.
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