FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

No, fascists (which TERFs are) should not be allowed to fester here.

mishimaenjoyer,
mishimaenjoyer avatar

no have no idea what fascists are and just use it as a scare word to attack people you disagree with - grow up.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

So you're saying Helen Joyce's claim transgender identity is a plot by Jewish billionaires is just her being a concerned citizen asking questions?

That's a strange side to be defending, friend who made their account yesterday.

mishimaenjoyer,
mishimaenjoyer avatar

I’m just pointing out that the „fascist“ label got thrown around by people like you so inflationary that it lost every meaning or sense, making you sound similar desperate as those you seek to oppose. What this does have to do with the age of my account here is beyond me, on the other hand I sense a hint of alt tech elitism that fits the picture just right.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

"People like me"? You'll forgive if I don't follow.

And it has a meaning—that they are being fascists—which it maintains.

It's fascists' fault they're being fascists; not mine for correctly labeling it.

mishimaenjoyer,
mishimaenjoyer avatar

People who claim that they are right because they say so will never cease to fascinate me.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

You want me to explain why transphobia is bad and should be opposed?

No.

Fuck out of here.
I'm not explaining why antisemitism is bad either.

mishimaenjoyer,
mishimaenjoyer avatar

Funny how this escalated from you thinking that the socialpolitical movement of fascism has anything to do with a subtribe of modern, post–liberal 2nd wave feminists all the way to antisemitism - something, that wasn’t even remotely on the table. if you now manage to stir „racism“ into the mix, you can call it a day.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

You don't read links do you?

I'm not the one who formed the alliance you deny exists.

TERFs have always been white supremacists.

mishimaenjoyer,
mishimaenjoyer avatar

An, yes, „white supremacy“ counts as „racism“. You did well today, have cold one - bye! :)

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

You're leaving my notifications?
Awesome!

Please don't go defending fascism in anyone else's. 🙂

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

I don't think @mishmashenjoyer implied that at all. Like, not even close. On any level.

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

This article is really not convincing.

like, fuck terfs, fuck the anti-trans movement, but the connection between the anti-trans movement and fascism is framed in this suuuuper abstract way that no meaningful definition of fascism would allow. It kind of just makes fascism sound like "statism."

There are plenty of terfs (again, fuck terfs) who are not calling for government action, but trying to exclude trans women from feminist spaces on non-governmental levels, arguing for a limiting social or academic definition of feminism or of a woman and holding exclusionary events. Fascism is an incorrect label for that behavior.

Furthermore, to call terfs fascists implies that they are generally for other things fascists are for, like a command economy, which I don't think is common.

And to be clear, there is an overlap between terfs and fascists, and an even bigger overlap between anti-trans people in general and fascists. We all know the Nazis fucked up a lot of good gender research, but they were never pretending to be feminists.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar
danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

... did you link to the wrong article by mistake? that article doesn't really have anything to do with fascism, except insofar as most fascists also happen to be racists.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I could link articles all day but I have better things to do than entertain (presumably) a cis guy while he plays devils advocate about the people who want my friends thrown in camps not being fascists.

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

that's literally the first article you linked to. Do you have a point at all? You can link to articles all day, but only two of them, and only one that argues for your point at all, which I've already addressed?

I'm not advocating for terfs or fascists, they're both villains, but to say they're the same is like saying the KKK and the muslim brotherhood are the same. Just because they're both evil and there are some common threads between their ideas doesn't mean they're the same. I think we should learn how to talk about the terrible groups out there instead of just equating all of them and dancing around our own ignorance. I'm not advocating them, I'm advocating against them as strongly as I can, and you're promoting ignorance instead of responding to the one damn point I've made.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

that's literally the first article you linked to.

Yeah I thought maybe you would read it this time.

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

I read it, and responded to it. You've been ignoring my response because you don't have an answer to it. So again. The core argument that terfs are fascists is:

To that end, Butler does a good job of laying out that the anti-trans movement ultimately is about strengthening government oversight — restricting access to medical care and generally seeking to ban LGBTQ+ people from the public sphere, which fits pretty neatly into just about every standard definition of fascism. That includes gender critical feminists, the self-professed “leftist” equivalent of the more extreme right-wing fundamentalists.

Which, again:

  • Pretends the entire social-focused aspect of the anti-trans movement doesn't exist, when it obviously does, and there are obviously many, many terfs focused on non-governmental oppression. The article itself describes governmental forms of oppression, but this does nothing to imply that the anti-trans movement is actually all about focusing on government oppression
  • identifies an extremely superficial relationship between two positions as both being statist and therefore being the same. The police state is also about increasing government oversight. A command economy is about increasing government oversight. The founding of the CFPB was about increasing government oversight. Having courts is about increasing government oversight. These are not all forms of fascism.
  • fails to describe fascism at all. Fascism is a specific thing with a specific definition, it's not just the idea of having an active government. Fascism is a form of nationalism with a dictatorial government, a strong military focus, a hard command economy that exists to support the state and the military, expansionist policies, suppression of opposition to the government, denigration of the individual in favor of the collective in the form of the state... Now, the terf movement, overall, is doing some of those things, but the article doesn't reference any of them.
  • fails to establish that most terfs, or the core proponents of the terf movement, or terfs in general, are fascists, let alone that a terf is categorically a type of fascists.

If you have a point, then instead of linking to the same article again or linking article that isn't about fascism, please make your point.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Why are you "Well, actually..."ing fascists? Who gains there?

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

who gains from making up a new definition of fascism? why do you want people to be ignorant?

know thy enemy.

I'm not nitpicking here, I'm not being pedantic, your article didn't even vaguely touch on what fascism is. Maybe the underlying article did, but I'm having trouble imagining what the point is.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Does it piss you off you spend all this effort flailing about defending fascists and I still tell you (correctly) you're wrong and spend a fraction of the effort?

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

where the fuck do you see me defednding fascists?

does it piss you off that you don't have any response to anything I've actually said? does it piss you off to discover that this publication you like just published a point it didn't understand at all? does it piss you off to see a person argue that we should attack terfs for being terfs and fascists for being fascists and not just assume that all bad people are the same kind of bad person?

is that why you're afraid to read any of my comments?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Having no time for a jackass in a month old thread dredging up his lack of reading comprehension and pathological need to defend fascists from true accusations of being fascists is very much different than being afraid.

You are correct that I am not reading your replies at this point, nor is anyone else.

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

stop saying that I'm defending fascists, asshole.

you didn't read any of my replies, and you kept accusing me of shit I'm not doing, because you are, in fact, not interested in defending your bullshit. Blaming me for that is sad.

also... I just found this thread today, how did that happen?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I'll stop saying it when you stop doing it.

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

Why are you advocating for the KKK?

show me a place where I implied that Fascists might not be complete pieces of shit. Show me one place.

You admitted to not reading my comments, you're nothing but a troll. This is serious. Go fuck yourself.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

You sure are upset about this group of fascists being fascists.

Why are you so cut up about arguing in a thread no one is reading?

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

I'm upset that you're promoting the Westboro Baptist Church!

I'm upset that decent people are being tricked into a stupid opinion about bad people. Just because fascists are evil and terfs are evil doesn't mean we should be making up confused bullshit about them, we should make coherent arguments and insult them for what they actually are. Making fun of terfs for being fascists is not effective because intelligent people will see that they're not fascists, and then not understand the actual issues with terfs. This is doubly problematic if your argument that terfs are fascists is as superficial and weak as the Them article you posted. You'll alienate people that absolutely want to be on our side.

Why are you so cut up about arguing in a thread you're not reading?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

Are you still typing?

Still caught up on a group of fascists needing you to tell people they aren't fascists, huh?

How's that working out for you?

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

I'll be here for as long as you keep defending Tucker Carlson.

I'm not doing this for the fascists. The fascists love it when people get confused about who they are.

I'm doing this for your benefit, and for the benefit of any other decent people reading. Decent people don't like being lied to, decent people don't benefit when you tell them that cake is a type of potato, decent people don't suddenly get smarter when you tell them that Rush Limbaugh is a Scientologist. Labels have meanings and degrading those meanings is not a progressive act.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

That's how you spend your cis-ass time? Defending terfs from descriptions of fascism when they're fascist?

That would seem like a bad things to do for a group who doesn't need defending.

goat,

why are you using cis as a slur? that’s so weird

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I am using it as a descriptor of an out group member sticking his nose in a oppressed in group's business. It is apt.

goat,

you’re weird

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

I've been accurately called worse.

goat,

Why

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

You're asking me to provide motivation for others' actions—calling me things—which I cannot do.

goat,

Why?

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

I spend my cis-ass time helping progressives avoid ignorant people like you who are helping terfs and fascists recruit. I spend my cis-ass time attacking terfs and fascists.

the worst thing you can do to a terf is tell the truth. The worst thing you can do to a fascist is tell the truth. They have no defense against the truth. Their ideas are genuinely that bad.

But when you lie, they party in the streets—that's their whole recruitment model. They say "look, libtards call us fascists just because we don't believe (insert some strawman version of the lies terfs tell)," and they laugh about how many "moderate" votes you gained them in their swing states.

I hope my fellow progressives don't think your ignorance is the norm among progressives.

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

You sure are confident telling marginalized groups you aren't a part of how they should refer to their oppressors.

You are very smart.

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

Why are you using the N word?

I'm not talking to a group, I'm talking to a dumbass.

As a Jew, I feel fairly entitled to talk about fascism, and fairly entitled to be upset when people say insert group of assholes are Fascists without any understanding whatsoever of any definition of Fascism beyond "government." I do, in fact, have a stake in how you lie about my oppressors.

But it's also perfectly reasonable for me to be upset when you lie about your oppressors and try to trick trans people and allies like me into believing your lies. Why are you so strongly opposed to the truth?

FfaerieOxide,
FfaerieOxide avatar

You haven't even addressed the Bureau Of Fasism Forensics Analysis report? Until you do that no one has anything to say to you.

danhakimi,
danhakimi avatar

Keep trolling trans allies and drawing false equivalencies, that'll stop the terfs.

Why did you shoot JFK?

!deleted125603,

deleted_by_author

  • Loading...
  • FfaerieOxide,
    FfaerieOxide avatar

    One is in a cult and engages in fascism apologia, another is a christian dominionist.

    About who you'd expect.

    Fitik,
    Fitik avatar

    @ernest You should look into that, how is it allowed?

    DarkThoughts,

    I've already sent him a PM about that user & magazine a while ago. Still waiting and hoping to hear / see something.

    Edit: I also think this is kinda disappointing. Kbin immediately defederated from nsfwlemmy over some bullshit allegations that weren't even true. Meanwhile this and other examples of toxicity remain to fester directly on this instance.

    Fitik,
    Fitik avatar

    Agree, I don't like defederating, why defederate from instance if you can just block it (There on kbin)

    BasicTraveler,

    Any time I tried to get someone to check out Reddit, I hated having to preface it with, oh and you're going to want to block these 30 subs, they're horrible, and here's another 100 that are kinda gross, I'll email you my list......

    There's stuff to block, but there's stuff that should be banned too. I remember recommending some of the SQL reddits to coworkers just weeks before the jailbait crap hit the national news. It's up to ernest how he wants to run this place, but I hope we don't let the bar go too low.

    BasicTraveler,

    I sent him one a few months ago, and it was gone within a few hours. I think he cares, but is swamped and probably gets a ton of BS.

    It needs to be acted on though. We don't want this to become a nazi bar. I hope he can figure out a way to share the load sometime soon.

    Chetzemoka,
    Chetzemoka avatar

    The magazine's rule #1: NO BIGOTRY omfg I can't 🤣🤣🤣🤣

    Neato,
    Neato avatar

    "No bigotry against US! TERF is a slur even though we coined it!" Is what they really mean.

    10A, (edited )

    I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall fight to the death to defend your right to say it.

    When you ban people, you tell them to go form an echo chamber where they'll flourish.

    A more intelligent approach is to imitate Daryl Davis, who has convinced hundreds of KKK members to leave the KKK, simply by respectfully talking with them.

    You might actually learn a thing or two in the process.

    Balios,
    Balios avatar

    If there’s a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis.

    dude187,

    I love this type of simplistic rhetoric leftists use to justify acting bigoted

    Balios,
    Balios avatar

    Hating Nazis isn't even leftist, it's normal.

    dude187,

    Acting like everyone who disagrees with you is a Nazi absolutely is though

    Balios,
    Balios avatar

    Which I never did. Great to hear we agree.

    10A,

    That misunderstanding is why echo chambers grow. Your fear of being perceived as a Nazi only reveals that you're overly concerned what other people think of you, which strongly suggests that you're young and naive. As you grow up, you'll stop caring what others think of you (hopefully you will — no everyone does), and you'll learn to respectfully engage in conversation with people of divergent viewpoints (even if they happen to believe their personal level of melanin justifies their superiority complex).

    Balios,
    Balios avatar

    The fact that you think that quote is about "owno, they'll think Imma Nazi ;_;" reveals sooo many flaws with your world view.
    Absolute "I am 12 and this is deep" material, hilarious.

    PoliticalAgitator,

    As you grow up, you’ll stop caring what others think of you (hopefully you will — no everyone does

    Good people care about what their friends and family think of them more than they care about grooming school shooters.

    10A,

    This is true.

    PoliticalAgitator,

    Oh well at least you’re openly admitting you’re not a good person and are encouraging others to not be good people 🤣

    SlowNPC,
    SlowNPC avatar

    I have mixed feelings about this

    On one hand, Daryl Davis is a hero, and his method actually works to de-radicalize people. I prefer using this method when I encounter bigots irl.

    On the other hand, allowing bigoted speech in your online platform has the potential to drive away normal folks and turn your platform into the echo-chamber where bigotry flourishes that you mentioned. This is basically what happened to Voat.

    I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall fight to the death to defend your right to say it.

    I agree with this, but it's beside the point. This isn't a public space like a street corner, it's a managed public/private space like a bar, where the bouncer will kick you out for abusing other patrons.

    10A,

    A group of patrons sitting at a table in a bar, quietly discussing their TERF perspective, is entirely different from one of them walking up to a trans table and picking a fight. The former is an exercise of free speech, whereas the latter is cause for ejection.

    static,
    static avatar

    They're not discussing quietly, everyone can hear them, and they want to be heard.

    10A,

    I only know about them because I subscribe to m/kbinMeta. If you stick to your subscribed magazines, as I do, you only hear those to whom you intentionally listen.

    Deceptichum,
    Deceptichum avatar

    Except it’s more like a group of patrons at a bar talking about killing a trans person, and than the next day one of them actually does it.

    10A,

    What kind of absurd hyperbole is that? Nobody has called for murder. And certainly nobody has committed a murder based on a call for it.

    Chetzemoka,
    Chetzemoka avatar

    Speech has real life consequences.

    "Known transgender killings increased 93% in that four-year period -- from 29 in 2017 to 56 in 2021"

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/homicide-rate-trans-people-doubled-gun-killings-fueling/story?id=91348274

    "Transgender people over four times more likely than cisgender people to be victims of violent crime"

    https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

    10A,

    I don't condone murder under any circumstances. But using 56 murders as an excuse to silence anyone online is a disgrace to the principle of free speech.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    The principle of free speech, in America, has nothing to do with forcing people to tolerate hateful rhetoric. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_United_States.

    In the United States, freedom of speech and expression is strongly protected from government restrictions by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, many state constitutions, and state and federal laws. Freedom of speech, also called free speech, means the free and public expression of opinions without censorship, interference and restraint by the government.

    As long as the government isn't arresting you for your opinions then nothing going on here has to do with "free speech". Individuals and corporations silencing you online is not a "disgrace to the principle of free speech".

    10A,

    You're conflating the principle of free speech with the US 1st Amendment. The 1st Amendment is predicated on the principle of free speech. The 1st Amendment is completely inapplicable here. The principle of free speech is 100% applicable here, as it is foundational to western civilization.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    You're talking about a "free speech" that only exists in /r/conservative echo chambers. You are free to say what you want but you are not free from the consequences. We do not have to listen. And it's not a "disgrace" that nobody cares to hear what you have to say.

    10A,

    Up until a few years ago, it was widely held by people of all political persuasions to be one of the foundations of western civilization. As the far left has moved progressively further leftward, they abandoned it. The only reason you think of it as conservative is because it's old-fashioned.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    Up until a few years ago, it was widely held by people of all political persuasions

    <citation required>. You can't just make shit up.This is only exists in your echo chambers.

    10A,

    Wait, do you actually disagree with that? I thought that was common knowledge. If you don't mind my asking, which age-group are you in? (If you decline to state for anonymity, I understand. I just find this baffling. It's indisputably true in my personal, anecdotal, life experience.)

    czech,
    czech avatar

    So you made it up? You can't state things as fact based on your personal observations from your echo chamber.

    It's indisputably true in my personal, anecdotal, life experience

    I could have guessed that. Your perspective seems very insular.

    10A,

    I could probably go out and search for a million random people who've experienced it too (like everyone older than 30), and some articles about it. But I said what I know to be true based not on having read it anywhere, but rather on what I've personally experienced over quite a few decades of life in America.

    czech, (edited )
    czech avatar

    Right, no sources, just your personal experience. The hallmark of the "American conservative". Facts be damned.

    10A,

    What are you, a librarian? Do you not go out into the world and experience anything in your life? Most of what we learn about the world does not come from citeable sources, but from actual real-world experience.

    danhakimi, (edited )
    danhakimi avatar

    the principles of free speech do not guarantee you a platform upon which to spread hatred. They do not give you the right to force others to serve your positions over the internet.

    there might be something to be said about "platform neutrality," but it's still a competition of rights that doesn't really justify forcing a platform—especially a small platform like kbin—to host content it views as extremist, or especially likely to result in violence. Maybe you can argue that we should have higher scrutiny in the case of a monopoly or similar large social network due to the power of strong network effects, but... I don't know how much scrutiny would you need to apply to say "aha, this company is banning terfs for insidious reasons!" no, they're obviously banning terfs because their bigotry is dangerous and hurtful and giving them a platform just feels incredibly shitty.

    A while back, I thought—well, I still do think—that platform neutrality should be used to frame the issue of large social media sites that ban talk about their competitors, like when Twitter deprioritized Substack (facebook messenger has banned competitors as well). I'd also argue this principle could be used to ban, for example, Facebook from manipulating its algorithm overtly (expliciltly, specifically) to favor a particular political party or an advertiser (outside of the ad itself—that one is already illegal, ads need to be disclosed as ads). But applying such a rule to general political standards and where you think the norm or neutral position should be is dangerous and stupid.

    PoliticalAgitator,

    He knows. That’s why he’s desperately trying to hold on to his little platform.

    Pick almost any mass shooter at random and look at their online history and you’ll find the same story over and over again; “progressively radicalised by social media”.

    They’re absolutely aware these domestic terrorists come from their midst. Find a far-right enough chat room and they openly celebrate it.

    dude187,

    All lies

    PoliticalAgitator,

    Sure thing little reactionary. I guess you’ll just have to hope that if any vulnerable people find this thread, they don’t spend 5 minutes checking before throwing their lives away for your cause.

    dude187,

    deleted_by_moderator

  • Loading...
  • Chetzemoka,
    Chetzemoka avatar

    No. You don't have the right to debate other people's right to exist. Such speech is an act of violence and should be treated as such.

    I don't want a group of people sitting around "discussing" whether or not black people are inherently inferior either. That is not speech we should accept in the public sphere

    dude187,

    Wow, so you literally support using violence to silence people you disagree with

    Chetzemoka,
    Chetzemoka avatar

    Yes I support the use of violence to defend minorities against violent oppression. And yes, I have this interesting tendency to disagree with fascists and bigots. I'm glad we understand each other.

    dude187,

    Well I support the right for those you attack to defend themselves. Both the right to free speech AND the right to self defense are important

    Chetzemoka,
    Chetzemoka avatar

    Free speech is not now, never has been, and never will be an unlimited right. Get off it.

    dude187,

    You have the right to say you don’t like trans people

    Chetzemoka,
    Chetzemoka avatar

    You don't have the right to say "I think we should literally legislate trans people out of existence because I don't like them," which is what we're actually talking about here, let's be clear

    dude187,

    Nobody said that. That’s the straw man the left makes up

    Though people absolutely have the right to say it

    Chetzemoka,
    Chetzemoka avatar

    Well, if you're not actually interested in legislating to stop trans people from existing, then I guess it shouldn't be a problem for you to stop saying that's what you want to do then, huh?

    That straw man sure looks alive: https://19thnews.org/2023/06/florida-trans-adult-gender-affirming-care-access/

    dude187,

    Censorship is always wrong

    Chetzemoka,
    Chetzemoka avatar
    dude187,

    Yeah it is. Grow up

    Chetzemoka,
    Chetzemoka avatar

    Yeah, but I brought receipts. You can't because you're wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    dude187,

    Yep, receipts that say censorship is always wrong

    10A,

    Have you never heard "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names can never hurt me"? It's preschool 101. Speech is never an act of violence.

    Additionally, nobody is debating anyone's right to exist.

    Chetzemoka,
    Chetzemoka avatar

    Says the person who's never heard their own right to exist or the rights of their loved ones called into question publicly.

    You don't have the right to "debate" other people's equal rights.

    10A,

    Except really, nobody's ever debating anyone's right to exist. That's absurd.

    Consider this: If a mass murderer was captured and imprisoned, he could claim that the justice system opposes his right to exist. The trouble with that is he'd be completely incorrect. The justice system opposes his behavior of murder. No matter how much he believes his very existence is inextricably bound to his behavior of murder, the reality is he murders by choice, and it is that intentional action which the justice system opposes.

    Chetzemoka,
    Chetzemoka avatar

    Did you just compare trans people living their lives without hurting anyone to murder?

    10A,

    Sure, and I could have chosen any other action, but I chose murder because it's not contentious to express a disapproval of it.

    Chetzemoka,
    Chetzemoka avatar

    Did it ever occur to you that it's "contentious" to express "disapproval" of trans people existing because...there's nothing WRONG with trans people existing?

    10A,

    Hmm, sounds like you missed my entire point. Nobody objects to any people existing. Some people object to particular behaviors.

    Chetzemoka,
    Chetzemoka avatar

    You don't think trans people exist and that being trans is "a behavior" equivalent with murder.

    I definitely understood the "point" of your bigotry perfectly well.

    10A,

    No. No, that's not what I think.

    Chetzemoka,
    Chetzemoka avatar

    And yet, it is what you said.

    Walk_blesseD,
    @Walk_blesseD@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    “Speech is never an act of violence” mfs when I use a public platform to smear them as child molesters, while simultaneously encouraging acts of vigilantism against “paedos”: 😯

    danhakimi,
    danhakimi avatar

    Daryl Davis does what he does in one-on-one contexts and other safe environments.

    He doesn't go on extremist internet forums and try to convince a bunch of nutjobs and trolls and violent monsters all at the same time. He would have been downvoted into oblivion where people who are looking for somebody to troll would have found him and antagonized him until he left.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    You sound like you've never argued with fascists online.

    They only exist in echo chambers, anyway, and do not debate in good faith. There is nothing similar to what Daryl Davis did except in the most superficial way possible. Go visit /r/conservative and you might actually learn a thing or two.

    Deceptichum,
    Deceptichum avatar

    Mate, it’s obvious they are the fascists online.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    I'm a bit slow this morning.

    dude187,

    It’s your type of bigotry that leads to fascism

    Deceptichum,
    Deceptichum avatar

    Hahahaha.

    “You were mean to me and called me a fascist so I’m going to commit genocide against a people’s”

    Fucking ey mate, way to prove me wrong.

    dude187,

    So you’re just making shit up and claiming I said it? You’re worthless

    Deceptichum,
    Deceptichum avatar

    Oh fuck up shit sucker.

    If you’re getting called a fascist, take a look in the mirror. If you think being called a fascist explains why people become fascist you’re a fucking moron.

    dude187,

    Hateful bigots like you like to throw out ignorant insults

    Deceptichum,
    Deceptichum avatar

    I’ll always hate fascists, I make no excuses.

    Now fuck off kid.

    dude187,

    When you get called a fascist, you should take a look in the mirror fascist.

    dude187,

    Go visit /r/conservative and you might actually learn a thing or two.

    Yeah, like how it’s a false bigoted belief to think that conservatives are “fascist”

    czech,
    czech avatar

    Are you saying there are no fascist conservatives at all? What are you some kind of bigot?

    dude187,

    All the fascists I encounter are leftists

    czech,
    czech avatar

    Sounds pretty bigoted of you.

    dude187,

    No it doesn’t. I’m stating my experience because you asked

    czech,
    czech avatar

    I didn't ask.

    dude187,

    You literally did

    czech,
    czech avatar

    I literally asked:

    Are you saying there are no fascist conservatives at all?

    I didn't ask you about the leftists you've encountered- you offered that information yourself. I asked you if you think there are any fascists who are conservative. You've got this!

    10A,

    I was active in r/Conservative, and here I'm the primary contributer to m/Conservative. Hi, nice to meet you. When I'm engaged in arguments involving the word "fascist", it's rarely me using that word (unless we're literally discussing Mussolini), and usually me who's called that for favoring levelheaded conservative principles. I enjoy mutually respectful debate, but I find most others prefer to fearfully call me a "fascist," downvote everything I've ever written, block me, and walk away feeling sanctimonious.

    Deceptichum,
    Deceptichum avatar

    You were active in the biggest alt-right safe space echo chamber in all of reddit? Colour me surprised.

    Xariphon,

    I was active in r/Conservative, and here I'm the primary contributer to m/Conservative.

    This is already a point at which you should go home and rethink your life. Everything else you've said only digs the hole deeper.

    10A,

    Yes, everyone whose point of view differs from yours must obviously be inferior to you.

    PoliticalAgitator,

    And did you give such flowery speeches about people’s “freedom of speech” over in r/Conservative when they routinely banned people for not just disagreeing, but for not agreeing enough?

    Or, like them, is your sense of injustice reserved entirely for straight, white reactionaries?

    czech,
    czech avatar

    That's a hilarious turn; my statement was meant to be rhetorical. But you really have never argued with fascists!

    And I never said YOU were fascist... but I guess that doesn't fit with your canned response then, huh?

    10A,

    Fascists haven't existed since 25 Luglio in 1943. You can find a tiny number of exceptions over the years, but as a broad statement it's true. I'm not old enough to have argued with fascists, and I bet you're not either.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    Fascism:

    a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

    Yea wow, we've never seen that in the last 7 years!

    I can see I really triggered you with that word. It's hilarious that you self-identified with it and got defensive.

    dude187,

    Sounds like BLM

    10A,

    It certainly does sound like typical leftists if you squint. Everyone in this thread opposing free speech is an authoritarian. But if you actually read that definition word for word, it's a position almost nobody supports. What's more, the definition has been changed from the original political affiliation. I'm not surprised Miriam-Webster's open to redefining words, but try as they might, words still mean what they originally meant. Still, their definition is close enough to the original to demonstrate my point that there are no fascists left, unless you squint and look at modern leftists.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    Ah, right- There are no fascists but if there are it's the leftists! Thanks for a good laugh today. Don't ever let facts get in your way, bud.

    10A,

    Hmm, let's break it down:

    a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti)

    Could be leftists, conservatives, or any other political group.

    that exalts nation and often race above the individual

    Well that excludes conservatives, because conservatism celebrates rugged individualism.

    Leftism, by contrast, embraces groups above individualism. This is what conservatives usually refer to as neo-Marxism. It's also known as identity politics. It's this idea that we're all members of a group, and that group gives us our identity. Then with intersectionality, you have multiple groups defining identity.

    Two caveats:

    1. Christians are the exception to the rule, where many conservatives do embrace an identity that can be defined as a group.
    2. Leftists do exalt groups above the individual, but those groups are not normally the nation (at least not in the US).

    and that stands for a centralized autocratic government

    Yes, in general, conservatives support small government, while leftists prefer government regulations over private business, government handouts for the poor, government taxation of the wealthy, and government control of every little thing in life — basically big government.

    Centralized? In the US, centralized means federal control whereas decentralized means State and local control. Leftists generally prefer the former, whereas conservatives generally prefer the latter.

    headed by a dictatorial leader

    Not applicable in the US, but I wouldn't put it past the Left in the near future.

    severe economic and social regimentation,

    Yep, see this thread for instance. Leftist love regimented control over what we're allowed to think, and they love silencing the opposition.

    and forcible suppression of opposition

    Oh, you mean like when Biden has his primary opponent, Trump, tied up in court with accusations and a threat of imprisonment? Or, you mean like this very thread where leftists are trying to silence the TERFs? Yes, leftists absolutely love the forcible suppression of their opposition.

    In conclusion, no, it's not a perfect fit for leftists, but it's loosely close — and it certainly doesn't fit conservatives even slightly.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    Great theory, but lets take a look at reality.

    that exalts nation and often race above the individual

    Have you heard of MAGA?

    and that stands for a centralized autocratic government

    While Trump announced he "plans to eliminate executive branch constraints on his power if he is elected president in 2024"

    headed by a dictatorial leader

    See the last point..

    and forcible suppression of opposition

    Like Jan 6th.

    You can't just make up whatever you want when you're not in /r/conservative. You are constrained by reality. Nobody is here to delete my posts and ban me for you.

    10A,

    Yes, well the MAGA crowd isn't very conservative if you ask me, and personally I support DeSantis. I think Democrats are strongly pushing for a Trump nomination because they know he's unelectable, and it's an easy play.

    But to your point, I concede that most people do consider MAGA to be right wing, and that Trump has on several occasions said things suggesting he'd like an autocracy. I think we can agree that'd be undesirable. I just don't think it's very conservative.

    Like Jan 6th.

    All that was, was a group of jaded voters who believed (rightly or wrongly) that there was election fraud. Personally I see no evidence of fraud substantial enough to change the election. But at the same time, I recognize that for someone who truly did believe there was election fraud, they were upset and they wanted to protest about it. That's all it was — a protest that was legitimate based on what they believed.

    You are constrained by reality. Nobody is here to delete my posts and ban me for you.

    And I'm glad about that, 100%. I wouldn't want you banned.

    But back to the definition, you can't just pluck a couple of words out of there and say it's a match. The whole definition fits the left way better than the right, and yet in truth doesn't fit either completely.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    But back to the definition, you can't just pluck a couple of words out of there and say it's a match.

    That's what you did. So I responded with actual examples, using the conservative front runner- and you replied with "no true Scotsman".

    That makes absolutely no sense.

    Or, you mean like this very thread where leftists are trying to silence the TERFs? Yes, leftists absolutely love the forcible suppression of their opposition.

    Oh wow did somebody place you under arrest for posting your opinions online?? Or does this have absolutely nothing to do with free speech, again?

    PoliticalAgitator,

    Well, if he didn’t selectively edit reality, he wouldn’t be conservative but my money is on “this is how he stays mask on”.

    He doesn’t truly believe anything he’s just said. That’s why if you check his history, it’s littered with examples of Fascist Brand™ nationalism that he’s just claimed conservatives don’t believe in.

    He knows his peers and politicians fit the fascist label better than anyone. That’s why self-confessed, swastika-waving fascists support them and more than likely why he supports them.

    It took decades to dawn on them, but nobody gives a shit what fascists and neo-nazis think about the way society is run. Their gold standard is a genocide.

    And so the alt-right was born. They had the same opinions as neo-nazis, the same key figures as neo-nazis and the same solutions as neo-nazis but they staunchly insisted they weren’t neo-nazis.

    That plausible deniability earned them a platform they’d previously only dreamed of. Not just social media and it’s endless pool of disaffected young men and unmedicated schizophrenics but actual international news networks who hadn’t handed a mic to a Nazi since Hitler.

    Of course, they couldn’t keep it in their pants for long. They triumphantly ripped off their masks at the “Unite The Right”, proudly displaying their swastika tattoos, white supremacist chants and domestic terrorism against innocent people deemed “leftist”.

    Their plausible deniability vanished, as did some of their biggest, violentest, most slur-friendly platforms. So they retreated, regrouped and came back with a new strategy.

    They’re just “conservatives” now. Still the same neo-nazi opinions, still the same neo-nazi figures, still the same neo-nazi solutions. But if you state the obvious, they’ll deny it. They’ll try and shame you for saying it. They’ll claim over and over again that the alt-right never existed and they’re just average conservatives. Maybe even moderates.

    Not because they believe it, but because they know that going mask off loses them platforms.

    This guy definitely knows it. His tactics aren’t just rehearsed, but traceable back to brain-storming sessions held by racists, sexists and extremists where they openly try and figure out how best to “red-pill” vulnerable people like children, the lonely, the stupid and the mentally ill.

    If your instance admin can’t see that, it’s time to find a new instance. That one has cancer and thinks they can stop it metastasizing with polite discussion.

    10A,

    I'm not saying "no true Scotsman." I'm saying Mussolini was a legitimate fascist, and his party died a long time ago. Some people today have similar traits, especially on the Left, but nobody is really part of his party anymore.

    Free speech is a delicate principle. It requires everyone to firmly agree that everyone is allowed to speak freely, and we're all prepared to fight to the death, literally, to defend their right to say it. It's delicate because as soon as people abandon it, the entire project of western civilization can be destabilized. What we are permitted to say on kbin and every other online platform is the essence of free speech.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    Free speech is a delicate principle. It requires everyone to firmly agree that everyone is allowed to speak freely, and we're all prepared to fight to the death, literally, to defend their right to say it

    What? Says who? This only exists in r/conservative echo chambers. You're free to say what you want but nobody has to listen.

    The "prepared to fight to the death to defend it" is in reference to the "free speech" that the constitution protects. We literally had a war about it 300 years ago. You can't have it both ways.

    I'm not saying "no true Scotsman." I'm saying Mussolini was a legitimate fascist, and his party died a long time ago. Some people today have similar traits, especially on the Left, but nobody is really part of his party anymore.

    I'm saying Trump it the leader of the Conservative party in America and you are saying he's not a true conservative. It's the definition of "no true Scotsman". Stating it's not doesn't actually change anything.

    10A,

    Trump was a life-long Democrat until he switched parties. He's not a Christian. His personality could hardly be described as "conservative" by anyone. Trump may win the GOP primary again, just because Democrats control the mass media, but he does not represent the voice of conservative Americans, even if we end up voting for him in the general election. He's a political anomaly, which is why he has a fanbase, but is also why he shouldn't be a factor in this conversation.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    Democrats control the mass media,

    This is delusional. Fox news is the largest "news" organization in America by a wide margin.

    10A,

    Fox is centrist, but every other mass media outlet is far to the left of them. And Fox publishes whatever gets clicks, including Trump stories.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    Fox is only centrist by American conservative standards. The positions they support are considered far-right by most of the developed world outside of the middle-east and china.

    10A,

    Perhaps — I have no idea about the rest of the world — but Fox serves an American audience, so that's the context in which it's appropriate to evaluate it.

    As a conservative, when I look at the Fox News website, I typically think all of the following: A) these stories are notably well-balanced compared to the other mass media outlets, B) man, they publish some really stupid articles on this site, C) Why do the articles all have huge videos that are completely unrelated to the articles on top of them?, and D) Yikes, the comment section sure does feature some openly racist remarks sometimes.

    But outside of Fox, in the US, there are generally two types of news organizations: large-and-leftist and tiny-and-conservative.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    I have no idea about the rest of the world

    I believe it. What I'm saying is that from your insular experience you wouldn't realize that what you consider "centrist" is actually "far-right".

    In reality the largest news organization in America is "far-right" with some smaller extremist-right orgs. What you consider "leftist" is actually "centrist" by developed-nation standards. You can go on calling it what ever you like but it has no basis in reality outside of conservative echo chambers.

    10A,

    That can be true or false. I neither know nor care. I'm sorry to be dismissive, and I don't mean to be rude. You're just trying to make a point that seems irrelevant to me. I'm sure it's meaningful to you, but it's not to me.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    No, I get it. You are not going to let facts get in the way of your conclusions. You don't sound dismissive you seem uninformed. That's fine and on brand with the positions you've shared.

    10A,

    I understand that some citizens of various other countries see themselves as part of an interconnected global world, where countries are fungible. And to be fair, a few Americans think that too. But in reality the US is far removed from all other countries, and we're blessed with being the greatest country possible, so a foreign perspective really doesn't impact us at all.

    So you're right to say I'm uninformed — indeed we all are, somewhat, depending on the holes in our areas of focus — but you're wrong to say my conclusions are not based on facts. Because my conclusions are entirely factual within the context of the US.

    If I'm incorrect outside of that context, well okay, I'll take your word on that. But so? It just seems like such an irrelevant point to make.

    auken,

    and we're blessed with being the greatest country possible

    Lol, this person has to be a troll or completely delusional.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    and we're blessed with being the greatest country possible

    By what metric? Name one metric that US is number one in other than defense spending.

    you're wrong to say my conclusions are not based on facts

    You cannot back up a single thing you say; all you offer are personal anecdotes. I guess your point would be that you're not informed enough to know the difference? That doesn't make you correct it makes you ignorant. And that's fine, not everyone can be informed, just don't pretend that you are.

    I'm cracking up that you're now downvoting my comments after writing:

    I enjoy mutually respectful debate, but I find most others prefer to fearfully call me a "fascist," downvote everything I've ever written, block me, and walk away feeling sanctimonious.

    Feeling sanctimonious, yet?

    Please continue dazzling me with you personal anecdotes from the butt-crack of America.

    10A,

    Ha, it's not fascist to click downvote. You wrote something I believed to be false, so I downvoted. If it really hurts your feelings I can take it back. I do enjoy mutually respectful debate. I don't think a downvote is all that disrespectful, and I also don't think we're having much of a debate. (What's the topic exactly?)

    By what metric?

    By a ton of metrics, but a few that come to mind off the top of my head:

    • We're predominantly Christian, and that's not an official religion like in some other countries, but actual self-reported religious affiliation.
    • People flock here from all over the world for our freedom, and always have since our inception.
    • Our Constitution was the first to establish that God-given rights are the basis for a free people's self-governance, and that constitution has been imitated worldwide, though never paralleled.
    • Our culture of self-defense makes us impossible to invade, because most people are armed and more than ready to take down attackers.
    • We invented almost every useful technology that has been invented since our inception, including this here internet and the electrical generators that power it.
    • We invented country music. 'Nuff said.
    czech,
    czech avatar

    You didn't list a single thing America is #1 in. Is there a single thing other than defense spending?

    All of your "metrics" are either not true or not metrics. That is amazing.

    10A,

    This interaction is done. You're obviously not a fan of the US, and if you don't live here anyway then you have every right not to be. It's no skin off my back. I wish you all the best. See ya around.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    I'm just asking for facts not biased nationalism. I'm not sure what I expected.

    10A,

    Here's the thing: I'm tired and headed to sleep. This has been a long and meandering conversation full of disagreements, with no real point. It's a bit exhausting. You're asking me about a topic that has been written about extensively in multiple books and articles. You can look up "American Exceptionalism" if you really want researched facts with academic citations. I was just giving you my honest thoughts, as a rather sleepy individual. I'm sorry those thoughts weren't up to snuff for you.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    My point was that America is not number one in anything. It doesn't mean it's a bad place to live it's just delusional to think it's the "greatest" by any measurable metric. Research "nationalism" if you need more information.

    10A,

    I know what nationalism is, thank you. I also know what American Exceptionalism is, and it's a well established doctrine, well rooted in fact. I might have failed to explain it well, or maybe you just didn't want to question your preconceived beliefs. Either way, American Exceptionalism is the real deal, and no amount of bickering over it could change my mind. Thank you, though, for sharing your perspective with me.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    I'm sure you can list one thing America is number one at? Its such a firm belief you hold you must know one thing, right?

    Or is your opinion just entirely based on emotion?

    10A,

    It's a confluence of many factors, some of which I already listed, and instead of accepting and seeking knowledge, you rejected my explanation. I'm done replying to you here. Take care.

    czech,
    czech avatar

    Your position is that America is "the greatest country possible" so the political spectrum used by the rest of the developed world is not relevant to us. We went through this exercise to illustrate that America actually doesn't lead the world in anything except defense spending and mass shootings.

    So to bring it back full-circle, before you sent us down a tangent about your nationalism-

    The largest news organization in America, Fox News, is far-right. What you consider "far-left" is considered centrist to right-leaning in the rest of the developed world. America is not "so great" that we can't consider these classifications because America doesn't actually lead the world in anything other than death.

    danhakimi,
    danhakimi avatar

    lol. "He does not represent the voice of conservative Americans. I mean, conservative Americans love him and want to vote for him and boo anybody who wants to run against him, especailly in Republican-party-controlled spaces, but that's all liberals' fault, no true conservative likes Trump."

    also, weird to focus on religion, but: https://web.archive.org/web/20201024120658/https://religionnews.com/2020/10/23/exclusive-trump-confirmed-a-presbyterian-now-identifies-as-non-denominational-christian/

    danhakimi,
    danhakimi avatar

    I've never heard anybody argue that fascism means "literally the Italian fascist party" before. Based on your previous comment, it seems that you're unaware—many people consider the Nazis fascists, as well. Particularly, everybody who knows the first thing about fascism.

    danhakimi,
    danhakimi avatar

    "lol, I hate the main conservative group in the US because they're not the right kind of Scotsman conservative. Instead, I love the guy who been pushing the most extreme book-banning policy in the US."

    did you forget that this was a conversation about fascism when you brought DeSantis up, or do you not know who he is?

    (rightly or wrongly)

    lol no

    But at the same time, I recognize that for someone who truly did believe there was election fraud

    who do you think tricked them into believing that? or do you think it was all one massive coincidence?

    FfaerieOxide,
    FfaerieOxide avatar

    Are you a transgender person?

    You just seem so smart and intelligent regarding how a marginalized group should defend itself against attacks on its existence, I was just wondering if—and I know this is ludicrous to even conceive—you turned out to be full of shit, would you bear the consequences of being wrong about how trans people should deal with people who want to murder them or will you be fine regardless?

    10A,

    It's not at all ludicrous to conceive that I may be wrong on any topic. I enjoy learning something new when I'm disproven. It's not easy to convince me (or anyone else for that matter) that I'm wrong, but I'm generally open to the possibility.

    PoliticalAgitator,

    Maybe you could demonstrate just how darn reasonable you are when you’re shown to be wrong by accepting that you’re not wanted here and leaving.

    10A,

    No, political agitator, I'm not going anywhere. Welcome to the internet, where sometimes people disagree with you.

    PoliticalAgitator,

    What a surprise.

    Erikatharsis,
    Erikatharsis avatar

    For every Daryl Davis who can successfully talk down 100 Klansmen, you'll find 100 Black people begging for their lives trying to reason with the Klan in their last moments. For every thought of "I can fix them!" that you may have, you have to weigh that against how many more people you'll need to fix if you platform their ideas and treat them as something worth "respectfully debating".

    Convincing people to leave hate groups is a great thing to do, but if respectful debate were effective on the large scale, and we have no shortage of people respectfully arguing that hate is a bad thing, why is the far right a bigger threat now than it was ten years ago? Do not tolerate the intolerant, do not debate the undebatable, do not respect the unrespectable.