When do you consider a system to be bloated?

I often hear folks in the Linux community discussing their preference for Arch (and Linux in general) because they can install only the packages they want or need - no bloat.

I’ve come across users with a couple of hundred packages installed (likely fresh installs), but I’ve also seen others with thousands.

Personally, I’m currently at 1.7k packages on my desktop and 1.3k on my laptop (both running EndeavourOS). There might be a few packages I could remove, but I don’t feel like my system is bloated.

I guess it’s subjective, but when do you consider a system to be bloated?

I’m asking as a relatively new Linux user - been daily driving for about 7/8 months

gun,
@gun@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m not against bloat, I just want it to be MY bloat

Petter1,

https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/f396a03b-1f0e-4e65-8097-24f11598faaf.webp

technom,

People favor Arch Linux for configurability, not lack of bloat. With the level of configurability that Arch offers, any DE can look bloated. On the other hand, if you are a new Linux user or someone who just wants to use the computer without so much personalization, anything Linux offers is lightweight enough. Even a decade old system has enough hardware to handle modern Linux distros effortlessly. This is probably what a regular user wants anyway.

pmk,

Honest question, since it’s been 12 years since I last used Arch: what can you configure in Arch that you can’t configure in other distros? For example starting with a minimal Debian and building from that.

technom,

That’s hard to recollect off hand. But one thing I find easier with Arch (and Gentoo, which is my daily distro) is to create complex partitioning schemes (e.g encrypted swap and btrfs subvolume mounts) and boot loader configurations.

Another example is a window manager with a somewhat complex display manager setup and a ton of supporting services.

PS: I don’t consider Arch to be the silver bullet. For example, I always prefer Debian for servers.

pmk,

I see. Easier in what way? They all have fdisk and the same basic tools? Does Arch have other tools beyond that which are unique to Arch? Is there a difference how you configure a window manager on Arch and Debian?

technom,

The problem I have is with the installer GUI. They often don’t work well when doing complex partitioning or mounting. Theoretically, you could use fdisk/parted on the live CD to do the partitioning. But the mounting section of the GUI (the part that creates the fstab) still struggles to map these new partitions the way we want it. This happens often when using btrfs subvolumes, LVM, dmcrypt or standard/custom ESP mount points (individually or in combination).

None of these are a problem when you are using a regular terminal shell to install the distros. You can just write fstab manually the way you like. This is a classic example of GUIs being convenient, but CLIs being more complete and powerful.

Theoretically, it’s possible to achieve CLI installation for other distros too. Debian, for example with debootstrap. However, those procedures aren’t as well documented as for Arch and Gentoo, because you’re expected to use the GUI installer. CLI installation just feels natural in Arch and Gentoo.

Another issue I have is with boot loader installation. I have 2 Linux distros (for genuine uses) and a BSD installed. I use rEFInd to manage them. GUI installers replace rEFInd with their boot loader. While this can be reverted manually, it’s annoying. But Grub has a CLI option to disable this (–no-nvram).

Does Arch have other tools beyond that which are unique to Arch?

Arch and Gentoo has additional small utilities like pacstrap and eselect. They’re not big, but are very helpful when you need them.

Is there a difference how you configure a window manager on Arch and Debian?

I always find it easier to configure things on Arch than on Debian. There are two reasons for this. First is that Arch has an extensive wiki written with the assumption that you’ll customize things (which is actually helpful even for other distros). Second is that software on distros like Debian are heavily patched for system consistency, while Arch and Gentoo provide mostly vanilla packages. This means that user documentation from the upstream software developer can be used directly on Arch and Gentoo, whereas you need to be aware of the patching in Debian.

One interesting example of the last point is the recent xz backdoor. That backdoor wouldn’t have worked if Debian and Fedora didn’t patch OpenSSH to talk to systemd. While Arch and Gentoo also reverted these backdoors, their OpenSSH were never patched and didn’t have this vulnerability.

pmk,

Those are good points, thank you for explaining further.

technom,

No problem!

PowerCrazy,

When my calculator app in windows is suspended, but has locked 29 threads and is using 60megs of ram. Not that those two values are significant, but why is my caluclator-app “suspended” when I closed it a few days ago since the last time I used it? Shouldn’t it just be closed and not showing up at all.

captain_aggravated,
@captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

And why the fuck does a calculator app take 60MB of RAM when perfectly functional calculators ran on Windows 3.1 on systems with 8-24MB of RAM total?

fossphi,

Wake up boomer, new math just dropped

solidgrue,
@solidgrue@lemmy.world avatar

When it’s Ubuntu? When it’s Fedora?

Relaaax. I keed, I keed.

It’s bloated when I cant look at any given package having been installed and understand within three dependencies why.

Shady_Shiroe,
@Shady_Shiroe@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t like when my PC/phone have a bunch of applications, so I try to delete all the ones I rarely use. Still some might find my devices bloated, but if I need/use them then I don’t see an issue.

Trent,

I don’t. Modern computers have a LOT of resources. The whole ‘minimalist computing’ thing some people go on about is really odd to me. And I say that as someone who remembers when 16K was impressive. I can see it for restricted environments, where every byte counts, but not for desktops.

CsXGF8uzUAOh6fqV,
@CsXGF8uzUAOh6fqV@lemmy.world avatar

Bloat is relative to the user. If I have a piece of software installed that I don’t use, it is bloat. If a program has features that I don’t use (especially if they get in the way) they are bloat. Random config and cached files from programs long gone are bloat. It is not really about saving CPU/RAM/disk resources. It’s like keeping my room clean. I also consider any UI element that is not strictly necessary bloat, because it gets in the way, takes up screen space and doesn’t look clean. I have 485 packages on my 3+ year old Artix system right now (and some things I compile). Sometimes it can be higher if I use some extra software. But more than 700 hundred packages will start to feel uneasy. An example of bloat: I used startx to start my X server (like almost everyone else). Then I replaced it with a small shell script (sx). It worked exactly the same for me, I couldn’t notice the difference. That means that everything startx provides over sx is bloat in my case: completely useless. You can see it as a form of minimalism.

treadful,
@treadful@lemmy.zip avatar

When do you consider a system to be bloated?

When I see a service or process running and I have no idea what it’s for.

Disk space isn’t so much of a concern for me so package size and count is fairly irrelevant (this system is above 1500) because a lot of it is just things I use rarely.

possiblylinux127,

I don’t really care about “bloat” (whatever that means) I care about the system not being in chaos. I keep my bare system as clean as possible and install everything in a container, flatpak or VM.

KrapKake,

I have been taking the flatpak route as well lately where applicable. Sure many people see flatpak as bloat, but very few things are installed as system apps and my $HOME stays cleaner. There’s also this gem github.com/valvesoftware/steam-for-linux/…/3671. I want as few things as possible to have rwx to my home dirs.

ProtonBadger,

I find it bloated if the system have things I don’t need are noticeably using up RAM and CPU. I couldn’t care less about extra unused packages on disk, they’re dormant. I don’t care about a few daemons or resident apps I don’t use either if they’re idle all the time and use minimal RAM. Bloat for me is something that noticeably affects my running system.

governorkeagan,

I would probably add (as a couple of others have already mentioned) if it slows down the update process by pulling loads of software/dependencies that I’m not using.

atzanteol,

Who sits and watches the update process?

Cyber,

Maybe not watching it per se, but it’s nice to catch a problem before I reboot (ie a grub upgrade failure for example)

pingveno,

Who watches the watcher?

governorkeagan,

Me, occasionally. I like seeing the little Pac-Man eat away at progress of a download on EndeavourOS.

Also, this video covers it slightly.

atzanteol,

Oh god, the “your computer slows down over time” BS from people who have no idea what they are talking about so “fuck it - just nuke and reinstall”.

Remove repos you aren’t using. Uninstall / purge things you don’t want anymore. If you don’t know how to fix it then you’ll just re-do everything that made it “slow” again.

vort3,
@vort3@lemmy.ml avatar

People that live in a place where 4 mbps speeds are a norm.

atzanteol,

People that live in a place where 4 mbps speeds are a norm.

Why? That’s an even worse place to sit and watch your updates. apt update && apt upgrade -y then do something else while it runs and check in later.

poinck,

Gentoo user here. I look at system load while compiling. (: But most of the time I can use my PC while portage is doing it’s job.

atzanteol,

I mean, for Gentoo users an update is a bit like “track day”. So I can understand that. 😀

pingveno,

Yup. Fretting over a light daemon while running a hundred browser tabs is really missing the forest for the trees.

bigkahuna1986,

But I neeeeed 587 browser tabs for research!

DaGeek247,
@DaGeek247@fedia.io avatar

I completely agree. This is also why I find find teams and discord to be especially frustrating; they're slow out of the box on the literal best possible hardware.

therealjcdenton,

When you notice it takes a long time to scroll past a lot of unused software in your application launcher to get to the one you want

MonkderDritte, (edited )

If it does things in an intransparent way.

TimeSquirrel,
TimeSquirrel avatar

I have 12 cores and 64 GB RAM. I am not worried about "bloat". The people trying to keep 20 year old Thinkpads running are.

Deckweiss, (edited )

Despite the cores and the ram, the weekly updates on my arch are starting to compile shit for over 30 minutes and I am starting to think about what I can uninstall or whether I should set up my own arch repos that do the compiling out of sight.

d3Xt3r, (edited )

16c/64gb Zen4 system here with optimised packages and kernel. I still care about bloat. Not from a performance reason obviously, but from a systems management / updates / attack surface point of view. Fewer packages == fewer breakages == fewer headaches.

poinck,

Exactly, this is the reason I use Gentoo on my Zen3 12c w/ 32gb RAM. Smooth and clean. Nothing should stutter below 60 FPS or lagging when I hit a key on the keyboard.

thingsiplay,

The time you start caring is too late.

biscuitswalrus,

Or maybe they’re trying to keep their system minimised from yet to be found security issues in the hundreds of packages pre installed that they don’t ever use or need, and act as nothing other than additional threat surface.

boredsquirrel,

Bloat is when stuff you need pulls in tons of stuff it and even you doesnt even need. So that stuff gets updated, stored and even loaded to RAM.

Sometimes this is also a complex set of libraries, like GNOME and KDE have. There are tons of libraries, and especially when using Flatpak, you poorly always pull in all of them, as the runtime system is built like that. (Even though packagers could state the needed dependencies from that runtime, and then only those are downloaded)

lurch,

if you don’t have a printer, but it runs cups (and maybe even re-installs it when you remove it)

looking at you, ubuntu 😐

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