Their most obnoxious members really need to learn how to proselytize because they’re their own worst enemy.
You don’t lead with the crazy genocide denial, you lead with pointing out stuff like Churchill genociding 3 million Indians with the Bengal famine, or that South Korea was a fascist state before the Korean war.
South Korea only fascist before the war. Definitely wasn’t a fascist pseudo dictatorship until like what year is it?.. I think they’re still electing people related to the former dictators or in that weird cult shit. South Korea is like that super crazy cousin you have, that you forget about because their quiet and don’t call you very often.
They were fascist until their President-For-Life type guy was assassinated by a member of the KCIA in 1979. He was definitely supported in some manner by the American CIA but just a couple years later Reagan would put a stop to all that “fighting fascism” business.
Someone forgot to remove their dog’s testicles once. It was a very harassing experience. Then I walked through the woods and saw a deer. It turned away and proceeded to harass me. Then I saw a pig and he said:
There are two pieces of context I think ought to be mentioned:
“post hog” and other “post your dick” variants are a canned /r/ChapoTrapHouse response against any user who seems like an unusually odious or bad faith wrecker or reactionary, like a rebuttal to 4chan’s “tits or gtfo”. It started when a neo-nazi went on CTH to spout race science but was mocked into posting his dick, which defused the guy completely; at the time, the subreddit was getting a lot of people like that, and “post hog” became one of the go-to responses because it was low-effort and it shut them down. It bewildered and frustrated people who were there say awful things or make users feel unsafe.
/u/randint has been on a crusade against hexbear for fucking weeks. He goes out of his way to stir shit and has explicitly admitted that his aim is to make the site look bad. Increasingly frustrated hexbears pointed out his bad faith engagement in the thread I linked. He goes about it in a bloodless, polite-sounding way, but he’s not there with good intentions. Only at the very end of the thread, deep in the exchange, did anyone give him the canned response, and it made him leave.
Ok, the deep lore of “post your hog” makes sense, and I honestly don’t think I can argue against sexually harassing a literal Neo-Nazi. Let the kid gloves come off.
But it is straight up sexual harassment. Yeah, it shuts people down quickly and easily, that’s literally what sexual harassment was designed for. And it’s not being reserved for Nazis, it’s being used liberally and the community and moderators foster an atmosphere that encourages sexual harassment of outsiders.
And to be fair, I see there’s outside actors acting in bad faith. But sexual harassment is either okay in a community, or it isn’t. You can’t blame a pro-sexual-harassment environment on a bad faith outside actor. And when sexual harassment has been normalized, how much space do you really have to complain about other people being bad faith actors?
The really terrible thing is that I don’t think Hexbear is even capable of having a good faith discussion about sexual harassment, with itself. If anyone was to point out the issue, the mods and most prolific posters would not be able to take it seriously and nothing would change.
In unixporn someone brought to light that the traditional term “ricing” had racist origins, and there was a little pushback, but by and large the community accepted that the term will be removed and banned. The community learned, and changed.
I have 0% expectation that Hexbear community is capable of listening, or changing.
i think it’s a fucking massive leap to characterize hexbear as a “pro-sexual harassment” environment. You can argue that they are overzealous in who they consider nazis sometimes, but multiple hexbears earlier in the thread did call /u/randint a nazi apologist for defending Adrien Zenz, so it’s clear they considered him a fair target. Hexbear users see hog posting as punching upward at privileged bullies and reactionaries they are powerless against in real life. You can dispute that view, you might even consider them delusional or self-indulgent, but I think it’s an enormous leap to conclude that they are generally in favor of sexual harassment of people.
I got dozens of people telling my to post my dick because I said that neopronouns are stupid.
I wouldn’t consider myself a Nazi, I’m extremely anti-Nazi. I’m very involved in trans activism in real life. I’m in management - I changed schedule posting so that it includes pronouns. I ordered give out free pronoun pins (I wear one too). I correct people and guests when they misgender someone. I’ve been to marches and I’ve donated to events. I have a lil trans flag in my window. Real life trans safety and inclusion is important to me. (And why I’m off put when a Hexbear confuses all people with penises as automatically being “men”) I’m not making these up to try to look a certain kind of way, this is all verifiably real and I can get you the pictures and receipts if you need them.
Maybe I’m not pronoun progressive enough yet and I’ll change my mind later. I still think neopronouns are stupid, and only part of chronic online-ness. I’m willing to consider that I might still be in the wrong here.
But if you sexually harass someone and get 100 upvotes, you’re punching down.
If the mods delete any posts and ban users who call out sexual harassment, you’re punching down.
What I see is people who probably don’t stand up to bullies in real life, they turn into bullies when they’re the big fish in a little pond.
You called them unhinged for having neo pronouns. People have been attacking them for years, they expect a fight, and if you come in and fucking mock their pronouns and talk down to them they’re not gonna care enough to find out about your real world stances or activism, they’re just going to look at the comment right in front of them, and assume you’re some bigoted CNN lib who pays performative lip service to genderqueer rights but sees them as goofy caricatures and has no interest in understanding them. They get enough people like that already. If they took the time to investigate and understand and categorize everyone who threw shit at them it’d be a fucking full time job.
The conversation has gone stale while I’ve been swamped with work, but I’m going to respond anyway.
Looking back at the modlog, what you actually said was that their pronouns “look like an alt-right satire of pronouns” and that anyone using those pronouns must be a “basement dweller.” And people with those pronoun tags were right there reading your comments. Why the fuck would you do that? I actually got mad reading it. Whatever your motivations, you walked in and made it very clear you had no respect for people’s pronoun tags and no interest in understanding them, right to their faces.
At one point you compared neopronoun tags to being trans-species, whatever the fuck that meant
You also seemed dismissive throughout the thread, on every topic that came up, which was frustrating to read because first you made all these assumptions about people and then you showed so little interest in what they were actually saying! The one exception was maybe when you asked for a source on Cuba — but did you even expect to get one? What is just rhetorical? Maybe you got banned before you could respond, I don’t fucking know. Did you even click on the information you asked for? In 2022 Cubans themselves democratically drafted the country’s new progressive family code in over 80,000 citizen councils around the island. Hormones and gender-affirming surgery have been free since 2008. I think this is interesting information that you might want to know. People also brought up trends in state regulation of farming around the world, neocolonial cash crop economics, Iraqi food imports and exports, IMF policies toward food exporters in the global south, the British planned economy during WW2, Chinese agribusiness and farming co-ops, soil exhaustion, and grammatical gender, and you seemed to show zero interest in any of it. You responded to these comments with paper-thin truisms about liberal values and basically tuned everyone out, called people misinformation trolls, and somehow managed to conclude that all the people in that thread were fucking nazis pretending to be queer communists for three years with no audience on a defederated site.
And for the most part, the worst thing anyone called you was “liberal,” except for one trans user who called you a fascist and told you to post hog after you said the trans-species thing — probably because it kinda sounded like one of those right wing “gay marriage today, bestiality tomorrow” talking points.
Reading that thread, yeah I understand why they were mad.
For the record, on hexbear, pronoun tags are not only a list of “things you can call me” but also a casual way for some users to communicate their identity and personality. Having two pronoun slots and an extended set of options not only allows for more flexibility in conversation (like them vs comrade) but also more granular self-expression, which is nice when you can’t fucking see or hear each other. In practice, the default thing people call each other is “they/them.” Someone with “love/loves” as their pronoun tag isn’t gonna get mad at you if you call them “them.” It’s the sort of thing you pick up on if you take the time to actually understand the site culture.
There’s not much more frustrating in conversation than when someone has their mind made up about you incorrectly and superficially, and they’re not interested in understanding who you actually are or what you believe or why you believe it. Maybe you were just bewildered by unfamiliar takes and you shut down a little. I don’t fucking know.
I definitely forgot all what I said, and I regret being that much of a dick. I did read the sources on Cuba and by that point I think I was banned, because I was trying to thank the person who posted it for me.
I think that if I’m dishing it out to people, I should be prepared to take it from them too. It’s a bit late to go back, but for anyone who confronts me about it, I will humble myself and apologize for my remarks about the pronouns. And for what it’s worth, I apologize to you for my pronoun comments. People deserve to feel safe in their gender identity,
that their pronouns “look like an alt-right satire of pronouns”
Not excusing what I said, but to explain, this is after several days of seeing a bunch of - completely new to me accounts - who happen to have double and neo pronoun sets, act a certain type of way. I might have never even really noticed the pronouns if it wasn’t for their 4chan-esque behavior first. I very quickly began to mentally associate 4chan behavior to people who have double and neo pronoun sets.
And there were occasional good things - I learned that a common term for desktop theming had racist origins, and now I know better than to use that term. But even in that same thread there was another trying to race bait the very people who were trying to be better.
So there are hexbears trolling, race baiting, and defending Russia (which is a whole conversation) - regardless the end result is comments that would be identical to the alt-right. So I see alt-right clone comments coming from people with double sets of neo-pronouns, and I made a bad and wrong assumption.
The biggest mystery is still why hexbear seems collectively intent on making communists and progressives look so bad. Cuba offers many amazing examples of how progressive policies work well. Why choose to die on some alt-right hills, particularly when it comes to sexual harassment, fetishization of violence, race baiting, and Russia?
And for the record, I didn’t come out swinging against neopronouns. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with neo-pronouns themselves.
What happened is that I saw a community who
sexually harasses people
fetishizes violence and executions
fears and mistrusts the media (to an extreme)
draws harsh in-group out-group lines
blurs the lines of their opinions with irony
"the West"
And I saw all that and double sets of pronouns including neopronouns, and I was like omg, it’s Nazis pretending to be leftists. They act like Nazis, who ran with the pronoun thing and took it to the highest level. (I know now they aren’t Nazi’s, but the behavior makes a really bad first impression)
The problem was never actually the neopronouns. It was the Nazi-like behavior that came attached.
This is frustrating, because, while there’s a lot you don’t know, there are at least two instances you definitely do know about: the Nayirah testimony, and the Iraq WMDs reports. The wars and sanctions following those lies killed millions of people and displaced and immiserated millions more. There’s a term for this: manufacturing consent. Many other examples have never received the same degree of attention because America did not use them to justify major wars.
And yes, “the West.” Imperialism still exists, books and papers are written about this by serious people. Even in the thread where you were banned, people had already started to bring up details. Imperialism is a little better hidden than it used to be, but it’s still not that well hidden. Michael Hudson’s “Super Imperialism: The Economic Strategy of American Empire” is a good source.
They act like Nazis… the behavior makes a really bad first impression
nazis who were very intent on telling you about queer rights in Cuba and colonialism in the global south.
Being anti-American-imperialism is great, what’s suspect is the apparent Soviet ultra-nationalism, which somehow extends to Russia, so the same people who say they are against imperialism and in favor of gay rights end up supporting an imperialist, colonialist, and insanely homophobic empire.
And yes, lots of countries in the West do lots of very bad things. I think the vague, broad, all-encompassing term of “the West” is about creating an out-group boogieman man for the in-group to identify itself against. And that’s how you get people supporting a country that represents almost everything against their apparent values. Russia gets a pass for using homophobic conspiracy theories to justify a military invasion, because it’s “against the West”.
Michael Hudson’s “Super Imperialism: The Economic Strategy of American Empire” is a good source.
Thank you, I’m grabbing an audiobook version to listen to, I am interested in learning more.
You’re acting like it’s gore or something. It’s literally just poop. Gross, maybe, but not really that offensive. Certainly not as disgusting as liberal takes on homelessness, bombing 3rd world countries, sacrificing lives for capitalism, etc.
And unlike those, a pig pooping on their own balls never hurt anyone.
It is a gag dated back to the Dark Days of Reddit, where there were regular posts about, “Well, actually, homelessness is good in the free market pee pee poo poo I am very intelligent.”
As they were not engaging in good faith, we, too, chose not to engage in good faith. Thus, we sent them photos of a prize hog defecating on his own testicles. The tradition of sending PPB to bad faith actors carries on to the present day.
No, you just use it against anyone who doesn’t immediately agree with you on everything, and now you are the bad faith actor, and you’ve made being a bad faith actor more important than genuinely helping any progressive causes.
You sent it to everyone who said anything you didn’t like day one of you federating. Lemmy.ml news and politics communities basically just became a toxic waste dump for a month and a half because hexbears thought people weren’t left enough, or thinking that Russia invading Ukraine was bad.
shrug-outta-hecks you don’t agree with us. Don’t pretend like it’s anything different.
I don’t see how the baby bieng thrown out cliche applies. We see libs parroting bullshit we reply, there’s no baby to be thrown out when it comes to libs and their propaganda or brainworms
Don’t know your specific beliefs but no in all liklihood I don’t agree with you. I don’t think I even remotely preteneded that. We probably agree on some things but I expect our over arching political beliefs are going to be at odds.
Just for my knowledge is a liberal anyone who isn’t a Marxist-leninist? Are Fascists Liberals under your definition?
No, just liberals are liberals. People who ultimately support capital and liberal democracy. You don’t have to be ML. Hexbear is non-sectarian, but we expect internationalist, anti-capitalist, and supportive of intersectional struggle from people on the actual left.
Fascism is basically capital abandoning liberalism to defend itself from socialism. So, fascists arent liberals. But sometimes when they get scratched the fash does comes out. Ask the average lib about the homeless, or Roma for european libs.
If you care more about how we agrue than what we’re argueing about then you don’t agree with us on anything you wouldn’t abandon in a heartbeat
Because it worked on them. At some point someone was a smug, obnoxious cunt to them online and they were like “Wow, thanks, I guess I’m a communist now!”
¯_(ツ)_/¯ I sort of look at them as amusement. It’s not like what they want will happen In our lifetimes (or ever probably). I don’t necessarily get why everyone hates them, just try looking at them as funny content lol
They are the best example what happens when people are locked in their echo chamber. They are radicalizing themselves to the point of absurdity. The statements they make are so illogical its hard to even have a discussion about it, because they literally deny truisms.
I genuinely don’t understand why the admins are dragging ass and not just defederating from them already. They provide nothing of value, just spam and harassment.
Welp, tried to delete my account and fuck off from this place due to that knowledge, but apparently account deletion doesnt work. so I’m just fuckin off.
All I’ve seen from Hexbear is class consciousness shit, but everybody else has made it the key point of their online existence to rage on them and do all the garbage they accuse hexbear of. 🤷
Sorry y’all can’t adequately explain why giving every cent of the economy to three people is a good thing.
EDIT: I hear what people are saying but it sounds like, from my limited experience of looking at posts pushed to me from there, that people are using the actions of a few to discredit the beliefs and opinions of everyone they disagree with.
EDIT2: LOL @ the people calling me names then blocking me for disagreeing with them. Thought that was Hexbear did, not you EnLigHtEnEd TyPeS JFC 😂
The issue with Hexbear is that their users tend to talk in a very demeaning and insulting manner. About half of the popular posts on Hexbear are about making fun of people or communities. Their political views are less of an issue; it’s more about their toxic behaviour.
I mean, that’s most people inside the more mainstream American Overton window of mid right to far right, but nobody bats an eye at that because they’re upholding the status quo. 🤷
Do you see instances who’s main purpose is to represent “people inside the more mainstream American Overton window of mid right to far right” that are even nearly as popular as Hexbear?
If you’re browsing all you frequently see posts from Hexbear users. I’m yet to come across a noticable amount of posts from users from an instance which represent the group you mentioned.
(I couldn’t even name a single instance that fits that description, because if they exist, they’re not nearly as active as Hexbear.)
Toxic people exist on all public instances. But on some they’re more common than on others.
What you’re saying then is it’s OK to stereotype users and bully them for their beliefs and opinions, then use any response other than quiet submission as proof that they’re bad.
Cause all the posts I’ve seen from it is mundane, and the only times I’ve ever seen it’s users act a fool is in response to everyone screeching at them for not adhering to popular opinion (usually with no coherent point other than “tankie bad durr” whatever a tankie is, I’m assuming a slur for leftists.)
Can I punch you then run around telling everyone what a violent cunt you are when you punch me back? Cause that’s what it looks like to me, I’ve been getting alot of wild claims about hexbear but nobody has any point of reference to back it up though.
What you’re saying then is it’s OK to stereotype users and bully them for their beliefs and opinions, then use any response other than quiet submission as proof that they’re bad.
Cause all the posts I’ve seen from it is mundane, and the only times I’ve ever seen it’s users act a fool is in response to everyone screeching at them for not adhering to popular opinion (usually with no coherent point other than “tankie bad durr” whatever a tankie is, I’m assuming a slur for leftists.)
Can I punch you then run around telling everyone what a violent cunt you are when you punch me back? Cause that’s what it looks like to me, I’ve been getting alot of wild claims about hexbear but nobody has any point of reference to back it up though.
This can be interpreted as bad faith if you don’t mention towards whom this behavior is directed at.
It’s easy, you guys direct it at anyone that doesn’t instantly adopt your worldview.
I literally had your people calling me a bigot for saying that being transgender is, ideally, a temporary state.
The implication being they finish transitioning and end up whatever.
I was literally called a bigot for accepting trans people in my own way. Some of ya’ll are fucking rabid, and you absolutely will turn people against you. People that would normally not really care whether or not someone is trans.
Also, yes I call out billionaire worshipping shitlords. I’m just sound enough of mind to understand that communism is far too idealistic to ever actually be accomplished.
There isn’t a single revolution that hasn’t ended with a new upper class taking over from the old one, therefore perpetuating the cycle of inequality. Hexbearians happily ignore this about revolution, effectively behaving as if the human element of greed will just magically evaporate with a new world order. Any system of governance that doesn’t take into account human weakness is a worthless system of governance.
So you gleefully attack anybody trying to do anything about to protect billionaires are their status. 🤷
Just another 2023 “Centrist” who doesn’t want the stigma of the right wing but only ever spends time going after one side because “only the right wing works”
I didn’t think anything bad of you until you HAD to make the clarification. If you have a compelling need to go out of your way and loudly pronounce that you do something - you don’t do it. Nobody’s buying it buddy, you’re just another right winger and nobody cares.
Just try to engage in a good-faith conversation with them. They love to shut that shit down with their weird image spams. And the poop. Like literal images of poop, to scare people off, or something. I really don’t get it.
The poop thing has sort of turned into a weird inside joke or virtue signal or something. Sort of like how in the dark ages of the pre-internet Era, nerds would quote LotR and Hitchhiker’s Guide at each other to signal that they are nerds and are therefore of one heart and mind
I think what you are supposed to do is take their shit posts in stride and then shit post back at them. Which I’m not fucking doing.
Sort of like how in the dark ages of the pre-internet Era, nerds would quote LotR and Hitchhiker’s Guide at each other to signal that they are nerds and are therefore of one heart and mind
You really weren’t there or had a very different experience than me. I mean, I guess by “very different,” I mostly mean we actually quoted Monty Python and Star Wars.
I wasn’t there, I just listen when people talk. But the point is the virtue signaling. Most social groups have a shibboleth to signal that they are part of the in-group. It’s sort of the inverse of how cult-like spaces will shun a specific thing that The Evil Outsiders have a casual relationship with, like strict veganism or strictly not using anything which functions similar to profanity
For sure. I agree with you completely and see the connection to hexbear. I was mostly just making a joke that my particular circle had different but still very specific inside jokes.
It was the calls to murder anyone who supports a democratic candidate, with the justification that cops have killed homeless people that turned me off.
Fair enough then, alas it doesn’t seem Connect app reads markdown.
out of curiosity does this do the quote thing to you? Cause it won’t for me, wasn’t sure if lemmy, my instance, or Connect. I just know MD is supposed to work.
EDIT: oh sure it works when I talk shit about it. Still though, your spoiler didn’t so maybe only some comes through. Idk.
Because you have no idea what war is and how it feels when foreign people come to your country and kill your friends and family. That tends to change peoples minds what is worth fighting for.
I would simply not die for a country thst didn’t appreciate me
Fucking hell. Tell me you have never had real hardships or had to make an impossible but necessary decision in your life.
“Uh, I’m super smart so I would just say no to fighting back if I was being murdered cause I would just stop being murdered. I’m so smart”
You are a child with simple views in a complicated world and that’s the kind of argument you expect from a 12 year old. Which is hexbear in a nutshell.
Per the other reply to you, you might recall when I went over our consensus perspective on Ukraine, how it is motivated by understanding the best possible outcome for Ukrainian lives and contrasting this with the bloodthirsty liberal approach you’ve supported (all dressed up in “concern”).
Is it the “uninformed” and life-devaluing comments you’re referring to?
Your best possible outcome is far bloodier than anything I have in mind. You are just too stupid to see it. You are naive and don’t even see you are shoulder to shoulder with the worst people. Maybe check yourself every now and then.
Im replying in general, I blocked hexbear instance then and had no desire to go through same dumb discussion I have been through before and got the same faulty and illogical arguments. So I dont know what comment you are referring to. I’d be glad to see it if it’s not the same old shit again. And it is, isn’t it?
I love the combination of insults and degrading what I said while suggesting you never even read it (as you announced you were blocking the instance. Incidentally, instance-level blocking wasn’t possible at the time, to my knowledge. That’s part of Lemmy v0.19.x.
But not to worry! I’ll just share what I said with you again. Be sure to explain how it’s uninformed, stupid, and devalues Ukrainian lives! I’m just too big of a dum-dum to figure it out.
whataboutism
It points out the double standards westerners gladly accept in order to favor themselves and disadvantage others. How hollow the rhetoric is. How much rides on accepting propaganda, such as adopting the term “whataboutism” as a way to deflect from valid criticism. That’s an old cold war term you picked up, probably from society in general, but it was propaganda to help ensure Soviet criticisms of double standards could be dismissed by Amerikkkans.
Minsk 2, like we don’t know Russian army went in there with heavy weapons in 2014 and sponsored separatists
The form of this argument is “whataboutism” btw, lol.
But anyways, Russia’s presence in 2014 was at best covert and there’s little evidence. They did provide some supplies. However, why would this contradict any points made about Minsk 2? Anyone familiar with the diplomatic efforts knows that the West was far more brutal and aggressive, targeting civilians in Donbas, and repeatedly avoided diplomatic solutions. The (ignorant) rallying cry seems to be that Russia should have unilaterally done everything even while the West did nothing and even escalated. They didn’t even honor ceasefires.
that by helping the attacked invaded country, the west is somehow making it worse?
“Helping” is doing the heavy lifting in this sentence. If it’s making the situation worse, it isn’t helping, is it? The “it” matters. The “it” from the West is weapons, loans, and auctioning off the country to Western corporate interests. The latter two get called “aid” even though they throw the poorest country in Europe into deep debt and exploitation. The former is weapons, it is direct support for the war, and whether that is “helping” depends on your understanding of where this war is going, what the realistic outcomes are, and what unexplored alternatives exist to propping up the UA military.
The simple version is that UA is fucked. It is not going to win and “reconstruction”, if it ever comes from the West, will come at the price of foreign ownership, low wages, and further stripped social safety nets. Since it will lose, the question is really: how long do you want this to go on? How many Ukeainians do you want dead? I want none. The US government will accept any number so long as it hurts Russia. Do you accept any amount of dead Ukrainians so long as it hurts Russia? I don’t. I want those people alive.
Sending weapons just ensures more and more Ukrainians dying so that the West can “stick it” to Russia. Not so that UA will win. Not so that the outcome is better. So that the outcome is objectively worse, so long as it’s “hurting the right people”. And all the while, the less horrible options are kept off the table, which is to say, diplomacy. Both by simply avoiding or preventing talks as early as March last year, but by ensuring the Western populace is unable to accept diplomacy at this point. This is why they tell you UA is winning, that Russians are subhuman monsters, etc etc. So that you support endless violence and think diplomacy is a bad idea.
This is also all before we get to the MIC, which drives war to fill its pockets. This is another of the real reasons the “helping” is happening: so that Lockheed-Martin can sell more weapons, keep more millions, all while children are plunged back into poverty. They steal from our children and our lives so that more Russians and Ukrainians may die, and there’s always a new target of the violence ready to go for these bloodthirsty monsters.
Had you decided to listen rather than throw a tantrum, you might have learned these things.
So what you have is the same things all over again? Why are you doubling down on your own stupidity?
Whataboutism is of course not a way to deflect any criticism. It’s a fallacy. Double standard? What are you 5? Of course there is a double standard. Damn, you should get a medal for being last to arrive.
About Minsk 2 is not whataboutism because it refers to the same actual thing. That’s not how it works. There is more than enuguh evidence for Russian army supporting seperatists and going into donbas themselves. You speak of the west a lot like there is an entity called " the west". You are so naive, it shows you no idea at all how diplomacy and international relations with work.
I dont even know where to start explaining it to you, but for sure I don’t have enough time. Let me just point out the faults in your reasonings:
Ukraine is fighting for itself. There is no evil west there. They are fighting am occupying army. They would do it either way, if they got the help from anyone or not. They are just doing it far better with better weapons. If they didn’t have them they would still fight. They might totally be occupied, then they would fight like partisans and do terrorist actions. That is the situation. That is the alternative. Not some happy little world you imagine.
America sure like Russia being trashed with their old discontinued weapons they would have to pay lots of money to dispose otherwise. America spends hundreds of billions of dollars every year just for Russia on their military budget. Basically their whole military budget was there because of Russia. Now they are being trashed for peanuts. That’s the biggest strategic win America had in decades. But thinking that this is all the is is also naive. Because America is not one child person that feels one emotion. Diplomats are thinking about what happens after the war and it’s a very difficult situation to defeat Russia in a way that doesn’t create more problems later. And Russia is losing, there is no doubt about it. That’s not from some main stream media that you hate so much, you would rather listen to Moscow media. That’s coming from war analysts, economists. That’s coming from the change in tone of Russian propagandists. That’s coming from Putin asking north freaking Korea for help
The world is chaos and most of the time things happen for the most banal reasons. Like a lunatic that finds a reason to invade another country in a minority that lives there, like the sudeten Germans.
Sometimes when you want to see if you are on the right sight of history, check who your comrades are. Yours are the extreme right, trump, Orban, kim jon um,… I wouldnt want to be in that company.
So what you have is the same things all over again? Why are you doubling down on your own stupidity?
You said you forgot it, lol. It seems like you right now and you a few hours ago need to hash it out and determine whether you remember what I said.
Whataboutism is of course not a way to deflect any criticism. It’s a fallacy. Double standard? What are you 5? Of course there is a double standard. Damn, you should get a medal for being last to arrive.
Smartest commenter in the room isn’t familiar with formal vs. informal fallacies and that the latter are part of basically all argumentation.
Do you think being inconsistent and hoodwinked by propaganda is cool and good? You seem to be a really big fan of it and call people names when they aren’t on board.
About Minsk 2 is not whataboutism because it refers to the same actual thing. That’s not how it works.
It’s not the same thing though. It was pointed out that the West didn’t abide by Minsk II and your response was to say what about Russia though. No defense at all of what was accused, just switch focus to what your perceived opponent did. lol.
Sounds like you’re not a fan of a perceived double standard! Fallacy! [Insult]!
There is more than enuguh evidence for Russian army supporting seperatists and going into donbas themselves.
Go find some then! And pay attention to the dates! Also remind yourself of what I said about Russians in Donbas because you seem to have already forgotten it.
You speak of the west a lot like there is an entity called " the west". You are so naive, it shows you no idea at all how diplomacy and international relations with work.
There’s the US hegemony with its European clients that together call themselves “the west”, lol. It’s not like I made it up. I’m using terms most people will understand. Well except you, as you have a compulsion to piss on the carpet.
Ukraine is fighting for itself. There is no evil west there.
Minsk II was negotiated with Western mediators who were themselves primary diplomatic contacts for enforcement and disputes. This is why Putin was talking to Macron and Merkel, lol. I’m sure you’re aware of this, right? You seem exasperated by having to explain the basics to these tankies, right?
One should also understand that Ukraine is a very weak country that was subjected to Western meddling after Euromaidan. While there’s much to be said of it, the easiest way for those for whom this is new information to get a quick handle on it is to listen to the recordings of Nuland. A good listen, especially when it’s for the first time - but that couldn’t be you!
They are fighting am occupying army. They would do it either way, if they got the help from anyone or not.
This paragraph doesn’t address what I said at all. The point is that Ukraine is going to lose and sending more weapons rather than negotiating just stacks Ukrainian bodies (it is premised on falsehoods about Ukraine’s ability to succeed). More people, including Ukrainians, die by propping up the illusion of eventual victory.
The actual reason that lie is spread is because of the real value to the West: attempting to hurt Russia. The position you’re supporting is to trade Ukrainian dead for Russian dead. Bloodthirsty and callous. My position is to end it as soon as possible, i.e. fewer dead, including UA dead.
Now queue the pretzel logic of how escalations and avoiding diplomacy and lies of victory will somehow lead to fewer dead Ukrainians. How is that summer offensive going? Do you like the outcome of virtually zero progress on anything except dead Ukrainians and Russians? I don’t.
They are just doing it far better with better weapons. If they didn’t have them they would still fight.
A Ukraine that wasn’t getting this sham treatment would be negotiating.
They might totally be occupied, then they would fight like partisans and do terrorist actions. That is the situation. That is the alternative. Not some happy little world you imagine.
Oh? Is a happy little world what I described?
America sure like Russia being trashed with their old discontinued weapons they would have to pay lots of money to dispose otherwise. America spends hundreds of billions of dollars every year just for Russia on their military budget. Basically their whole military budget was there because of Russia. Now they are being trashed for peanuts. That’s the biggest strategic win America had in decades.
Oh, so one reason the war is being escalated so that the US can serve its own interests, including cycling weapons inventory? Some might say, the West?
You’re almost there. Don’t forget that the US couples this with new military contracts at home and debt in UA!
But thinking that this is all the is is also naive. Because America is not one child person that feels one emotion. Diplomats are thinking about what happens after the war and it’s a very difficult situation to defeat Russia in a way that doesn’t create more problems later.
Problems for themselves are the only ones they’d care about. There is no limit to the number of Slavic lives they’d sacrifice.
Though I do think I need to remind you that at no point have I suggested the only interest the US has is in sending weapons so it can feed its own MIC. I actually suggested several, even though I have no pretense of having listed an exhaustive set! See if you identify them! Here’s a freebie: in my exact reply on this I pointed out that UA is taking on debts.
And Russia is losing, there is no doubt about it.
Ahahahahahahahahaha
That’s not from some main stream media that you hate so much, you would rather listen to Moscow media.
What time is it in Moscow!? I’m sure this is a hit on Reddit.
That’s coming from war analysts, economists.
People that are classically uninvolved in propaganda narratives and are usuallycorrect. Incidentally, both of those groups have people who think exactly the opposite thing as well. Can you imagine!?
Oh and btw since I know you love talking about fallacies: appeal to authority. I’d loooove to see you figure out how to read and analyze any media or experts at all without using it, lol.
That’s coming from the change in tone of Russian propagandists.
The tone of Russian propagandists hasn’t really changed. It’s almost boring.
That’s coming from Putin asking north freaking Korea for help
Oh? Is that what happened? Please describe it without mentioning the cycling of old weapons stockpiles, since we agree on whose interests that benefits, right?
The world is chaos and most of the time things happen for the most banal reasons. Like a lunatic that finds a reason to invade another country in a minority that lives there, like the sudeten Germans.
You think Nazi expansionism was just one crazy guy’s idea? lol
Love to hear ahistorical Great Man Theory in condescensing lib posts.
Sometimes when you want to see if you are on the right sight of history, check who your comrades are. Yours are the extreme right, trump, Orban, kim jon um,…
How are they my comrades?
So, anyways, you forgot to do the one thing you were asked to do. Tell me how our position is uninformed and devalues Ukrainian life. You did manage to call the ideas stupid but had facile or ignorant points every time, but I’ll give you partial credit for trying.
You said you forgot it, lol. It seems like you right now and you a few hours ago need to hash it out and determine whether you remember what I said.
No, I said they are the same old debunked arguments and they are. Ive had this conversation before. It was the same, except your mental gymnastic routine is more awkward and cringe.
Smartest commenter in the room isn’t familiar with formal vs. informal fallacies and that the latter are part of basically all argumentation.
It doesnt matter what you call it, its irrelevant. Because america does it, does not excuse anyone else. Its still wrong and this is not a competition which country is the worst.
It’s not the same thing though. It was pointed out that the West didn’t abide by Minsk II and your response was to say what about Russia though. No defense at all of what was accused, just switch focus to what your perceived opponent did. lol.
You said it was the same. Its not. We are talking about the same situation. They are an involved party. Russia violated Minsk 2. They also violated dozens of other agreements that protected and aknowledged the borders of Ukraine. You dont care about that though.
Go find some then! And pay attention to the dates! Also remind yourself of what I said about Russians in Donbas because you seem to have already forgotten it.
Ive been this road before. There is no evidence possible that you wouldnt do cringey mental gymnastis around.
There’s the US hegemony with its European clients that together call themselves “the west”, lol. It’s not like I made it up. I’m using terms most people will understand. Well except you, as you have a compulsion to piss on the carpet.
Thats not what I wrote. You seem to be thinking that is a monolith entity. Its a naive thinking, like you know nothing about international relations.
Minsk II was negotiated with Western mediators who were themselves primary diplomatic contacts for enforcement and disputes. This is why Putin was talking to Macron and Merkel, lol. I’m sure you’re aware of this, right? You seem exasperated by having to explain the basics to these tankies, right?
So what? Who violated it and who violated all the other agreements? The idea that all would be fine if only Ukraine did nothing is laughable. Completely dissociated from reality.
One should also understand that Ukraine is a very weak country that was subjected to Western meddling after Euromaidan. While there’s much to be said of it, the easiest way for those for whom this is new information to get a quick handle on it is to listen to the recordings of Nuland. A good listen, especially when it’s for the first time - but that couldn’t be you!
Ukraine wanted what the west has. It didnt want what russia had. Russia has its own propaganda just like everyone else. If you read some books about russian covert activities you might be surprised. But nobody whats what they have.
This paragraph doesn’t address what I said at all. The point is that Ukraine is going to lose and sending more weapons rather than negotiating just stacks Ukrainian bodies (it is premised on falsehoods about Ukraine’s ability to succeed). More people, including Ukrainians, die by propping up the illusion of eventual victory.
If ukraine loses there isnt any ukraine left. Ukraine is fighting for some survivial. There is no negotiation possible because its clear Russia doesnt respect any agreements. Ukraine is going to win. The west wouldn’t send any weapons if they thought they couldnt. Ukraine has a clear path to victory. They are a nation and they are individuas who can decide if they want to fight or not. Its their call. Your hexbear buddies don’t seem to give them any agency. Its degrading and demeaning.
The actual reason that lie is spread is because of the real value to the West: attempting to hurt Russia. The position you’re supporting is to trade Ukrainian dead for Russian dead. Bloodthirsty and callous. My position is to end it as soon as possible, i.e. fewer dead, including UA dead.
Lol. That is like a foundation of all conspiracy theories: if somebody benefits from something, they must be the cause of it. Thats to funny. I bet you subscribe to other conspiracy theories. What are they? Global warming? Anti wax? It has to be anti wax, most of that crowd went onto supporting russia. Moon landing?
Now queue the pretzel logic of how escalations and avoiding diplomacy and lies of victory will somehow lead to fewer dead Ukrainians. How is that summer offensive going? Do you like the outcome of virtually zero progress on anything except dead Ukrainians and Russians? I don’t.
The summer offensive is going slow but steady. Russians can go home. Ukrainians are home and they decide how long to fight.
A Ukraine that wasn’t getting this sham treatment would be negotiating.
No they wouldn’t. There would be nothing to negotiate. Russia wouldn’t negotiate with someone who surrenders. Thats so bizzare you would think so.
Oh? Is a happy little world what I described?
That all would be great or something. Its stupid. It wouldn’t. Ukraine would disapear. There would be a lot of dead people.
Oh, so one reason the war is being escalated so that the US can serve its own interests, including cycling weapons inventory? Some might say, the West?
You’re almost there. Don’t forget that the US couples this with new military contracts at home and debt in UA! See, here is one of the issues you have. Its not the reason, its just a side benefit. Causality and causation. This is one of your main problems in the thinking you have. You have a conspiracy way of thinking.
And Russia is losing, there is no doubt about it.
Ahahahahahahahahaha Its funny that you think its funny, because the information you must get to think otherwise must be direct from the Kremlin.
People that are classically uninvolved in propaganda narratives and are usuallycorrect. Incidentally, both of those groups have people who think exactly the opposite thing as well. Can you imagine!?
Oh, who ever thinks differenty than you must be diametrically wrong. Lol. Thats lame. All the people that do extensive analisys, that go in depth into how the war is going, how the russian economy is doing, the contracts and aid Ukraine is getting, they all agree. The war might be long, but it Ukraine will win. I haven’t found any opinion that would be a thoughtful anaisys and not some oppinion piece that would say otherwise and I look. But true, i dont listen to kids on youtube wearing Z tshirts.
Oh and btw since I know you love talking about fallacies: appeal to authority. I’d loooove to see you figure out how to read and analyze any media or experts at all without using it, lol.
Lol, I dont think you know what appeal to authority is. That doesn’t mean any authority has no valid arguments.
The tone of Russian propagandists hasn’t really changed. It’s almost boring.
It has. Its much darker now. A lot of self pitty. They know things are not going well.
Oh? Is that what happened? Please describe it without mentioning the cycling of old weapons stockpiles, since we agree on whose interests that benefits, right?
It is about the stockpiles. But you know, stockpiles go bad. Munitions go bad and russia nad north korea are not know for their well management of stockpiles. And north korea is known for many other things.
You think Nazi expansionism was just one crazy guy’s idea? lol
Love to hear ahistorical Great Man Theory in condescensing lib posts. You know what I meant. You dont have to do jump around this one. Its really boring.
How are they my comrades?
They are on your side. Calling for the west to stop arming Ukraine. They have the exact same arguments you have. So much, that you should like their mouthpiece. Do you understand that? The worst people in the world and you are saying the same thing. I would think long and hard about why that is and if I want to be in that company.
So, anyways, you forgot to do the one thing you were asked to do. Tell me how our position is uninformed and devalues Ukrainian life. You did manage to call the ideas stupid but had facile or ignorant points every time, but I’ll give you partial credit for trying.
I already have, noumerous times. If you don’t want to see it, you wont see it.
On that topic, it’s been 20 days and you still haven’t managed to produce an answer; what are the “bizzare arguments” from hexbears, and how have they been “debunked so many times” ?
Oh, maybe read the comments again. It’s the classics :
Ukraine should follow Minsk agreements and all would be well (who cares that Russia didn’t and has broken a dozen other agreements)
it’s all because NATO is growing (lol)
Ukraine was shelling donbas, 14000 dead (yes, it was shelling Russian army in donbas,)
what about America (lame whataboutism)
Russia is there to protect a minority (sure, only that ask their leaders have said otherwise many times and have tried to annex land without a Russian minority)
Ukraine are nazis together with all the west (that’s just extreme right wing projection)
Russia is fighting the whole west (lol, the west didn’t even join in the last year defence budgets in EU and usa barely moved) …
You have nothing. You just repeat these dumb bizzare debunked claims that are illogical not only false. And it’s become very boring.
And you are trolling me again, aren’t you? Because you can’t be that dumb, can you?
Have you done so many brain gymnastics that you think you genuinely care about the lives of Ukrainians, or are you aware that you’re lying for political points?
In what way do you actually value Ukrainian lives?
Yes that’s one of the disgusting ones. So naive and stupid. These hexbear people are degrading Ukrainians like they have no agency for themselves, like they have no wants and motivations as a nation and individuals. With these disgusting statements they are demeaning their fight and their lives. On the other hand there is the caricature America that somehow like an evil shaman, directs others into doing their bidding. Grotesque.
I lost any support for them when I saw them cheering the idea that North Korea should be able to nuke other countries as they all cheered happily “Death to America” with heart emojis like there would be no mass suffering and a complete lack of critical thought of what enabling bullies means for the suffering they are wanting to happen.
They are scared idiots who think appeasing bullies means they will have an easier life and not have to think about how bad things sometimes just have to happen because not everyone is good at heart.
Then they cover it with false claim that they support all people and they only support communism because of how it would support everyone equally.
If you actually care about people you don’t root for suffering and hurting and you definitely don’t wave flags for the bullies just cause it’s an easier answer. Life isn’t so easy and they don’t want to hear it.
it’s a bit imperfect, but here’s my mirror of the batch as the maintainer. github truncates the list but it’s all in there if cloned. i’d rather not restructure the folders since it’s easier on my end to have it like that when creating/adding emotes, so shrug-outta-hecks
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