I’m not sure how someone can look at the mask-off cryptofascism of the American political system at this point and convince themselves that voting blue over red makes the tiniest bit of difference. The mountains of corpses both parties routinely inflict on the world at large makes any tiny delineation in rhetoric (and it is just rhetoric, because anyone with eyes knows the national level Democrats aren’t doing shit about fuck even on culture war issues that they’ve fundraised off of for three decades, let alone any of the systemic evil and rot leaving billions in destitution) so fucking irrelevant that it’s honestly a joke someone could even bother to try and shame people into casting votes that statistically would never influence the outcome of an election even if it was a fair and democratic process.
Don’t vote for a child smelling genocide endorsing rapist, maybe?
If your system only allows you to choose between 2 of the worst people you’ve ever heard of, that’s a bad system you shouldn’t condone or blindly participate in?
The bickering in this thread is just the latest example of how broken American politics is. There are no good candidates, only least bad ones, and we are forced into these shitty choices every single time because the people in power value profits over human rights and dignity.
I get where they’re coming from, the problem is there’s no exit strategy. By voting for the lesser evil election after election you still get to the worst shit imaginable, it just takes a while.
Wringing your hands won’t change the fact you’re supporting a genocidal ghoul.
If Democrats get your support unconditionally, then that encourages them to completely ignore what you have to say because they already got your vote and that’s all you’re good for to them.
I find it fascinating how liberals here cannot conceive that Biden and Trump might as well be the same person. Their policies are identical because it doesn’t matter anymore. America is on rails. This is a country run by a profit algorithm.
The only distinction between Biden and Trump to me is Trump is funnier.
Gotta love the damned privs out here again to remind us all that white “leftists” have a collective memory of “as far back as I can go before I have to acknowledge that Republicans make things materially worse for the people I say I’m an ally to whenever they’re in power.”
Hey you edgelord “genocide joe posters”, it’s me, an actual fucking palestinian here in america to tell you that the Republicans think the problem is that we’re not doing that shit here too.
When Trump rides back into the whitehouse on the backs of your militant refusal of solidarity, it’ll be on you when some Trucknuts McGee bastard beats me in the streets, and tells me that my Sand N****r ass should be grateful that he didn’t bring a rope.
It’ll be on you when Red States begin abolishing no fault divorce to trap women in abusive marriages because it made Steven Crowder big sad one time.
It’ll be on you the next time a trans kid is faced with the choice to either run away or almost certainly die and absolutely be disowned.
You mean the guy who’s been negotiating the release of palestinians being held hostage in Israeli prisons, or the one who secured Palestinians the right to access their own natural resources?
You’re the one who isn’t doing anything to help us by insisting we deserve to die by trump’s hand if you don’t get your demands met.
How fucking dare you negotiate over the voices of the people most in need,
If you really have the privilege to turn your nose up, doing so is betrayal, especially from someone who marches and says all the pretty words of being an ally.
Dr. King was talking about your lot in Birmingham, all the performance of agreement, none of the work of solidarity.
The other party believes the issue is that we don’t have a similar policy of genocide here in the states and you really wanna ask where the hate’s at for the party that doesn’t do that shit here? I’ll tell ya where it’s at, it’s with all the shit privs who can’t see past themselves to fucking know better.
Exactly how much influence over Israel’s actions do you think his administration would have if it took the kind of hard line you’re looking for?
Israel has a far right xenophobic government and suffered a massive blow from Hamas. Short of invading Israel, there is nothing the US can do to prevent bloody retribution on Palestinians. By standing firm with Israel, we at least get a seat at the table to try and shape the response to reduce harm to civilians. We have actually had some success in that, though not as much as we would like.
Meanwhile, we have this quote coming from Harris: “Under no circumstances will the United States permit the forced relocation of Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank, the besiegement of Gaza, or the redrawing of the borders of Gaza".
That’s a damn strong signal to Israel that US support for Israel is being undermined by their actions. That is how you leverage a relationship towards a change in outcome. Biden actually has a seriously skilled foreign policy team that’s following the path most beneficial to Palestinians, not the one most aestheticly pleasing to Palestinian supporters.
I’m a fierce critic of Biden, and I’m outraged that he decided to run again in 2024. Still, I think his administration has taken the right approach with Israel. I don’t think every step was handled perfectly, but the overall approach is correct, and he is doing it in the face of serious political backlash. That’s actually what leadership looks like.
That’s a ton of words that don’t answer the question: why is Biden running again when he polls worse than “unnamed democrat”?
It also doesn’t answer a whole lot of other questions that weren’t asked.
Does he want to lose?
How should I know? Almost certainly not?
But I can’t even begin to understand what you mean when you say actually it’s good they sell weapons to Israel.
Do you think that if we refused then they wouldn’t just go buy them elsewhere? It’s notable that, for the first time, conditions have been imposed on how the weapons can be used. The conditions aren’t as restrictive as they might be, but that’s another signal that our “unconditional support” of Israel is in jeopardy.
We have always sold weapons to Israel. Stopping now wouldn’t impact the war, but it would destroy any influence we do have over Israel’s actions.
Still hasn’t been asked. And ya know what? If ya ask it, nobody’s obliged to answer it. That’s kinda how this Internet thing works. I never claimed Biden should be running in the first place. My comment was on his handling of the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
Unfortunately the Overton window moves with the voters. Leftists boycott every election like it’s some kind of flex, but all the Democrats do is move further right to capture more right wing voters. Because why bother catering to leftists.
Where the hate for the democrats running an unelectable demon?
Unelectable??
The bitter truth is that when only the worst people in America come out to vote, only the worst candidates are electable. Being a demon is a plus for electability.
but all the Democrats do is move further right to capture more right wing voters.
That’s exactly the issue, innit? The Democratic Party doesn’t care about the issues or the vulnerable groups enough to stick to their principles, or try to figure out how to pull voters to the left. They care more about staying in power, and if that means throwing constituencies under the bus and moving right, they move right.
You’re way too idealistic about what politics is or should be.
The DNC isn’t good, or moral, and that’s not it’s job. It’s a business, it only exists to be in power as a representation of the voters.
The voters influence the parties. The DNC shouldn’t be trying to pull voters left. Voters need to be pulling the DNC left. If the most progressive candidates keep winning, if the most conservative candidates keep losing, it forces the entire Overton window left.
And that’s really the dream, choosing the most progressive of two progressive candidates, not the least regressive of two regressive candidates.
Well, I must disagree. Factions in the Republican Party have been engaged in a decades-long campaign to pull voters to the right, starting with Sen. Barry Goldwater’s conservative movement, leading into the Reagan Revolution, the Contract with America era, the founding of Fox News as a propaganda arm of the party, the (astroturfed) Tea Party, and on to today. The notion that a national party organization exists solely as the Platonic embodiment of the will of the voters strikes me as quite idealistic.
If the GOP ia trying to move people right it’s is a complete failure though, isn’t it? Women’s rights are popular, LGBT rights are popular, inclusiveness is popular, religious affiliation is decreasing. Being conservative is uncool and unpopular.
What the GOP succeeds at is undermining democracy so it can seize power with a minority. In fact, undermining democracy is the GOP’s only option, precisely because it fails so hard at pulling voters right.
That just doesn’t track history, though. Nixon did many things, like creating the EPA, that would be considered leftist today, not because he liked it, but because that was the political reality of the time. Then Reagan swept in on the Goldwaterite tide. Clinton overtly and explicitly moved right to steal conservative positions with his New Democrat movement.
Now we have a Democratic President breaking strikes as if he were ol’ Ronnie, and his supporters defending it because he got some minor concessions from the railroad for one of the unions involved. Even the signature achievement of Obama’s Presidency was a Heritage Foundation idea, pioneered as RomneyCare in Massachusetts.
We certainly have moved right in as a country in lots of ways, and somehow we’re on the verge of lots of people voting in a dictator.
Bing bong! Correct! And that state is Alaska, where the presidential election is already over while we’re just over 1/3 of the way through our day of voting.
Which is why it is in the most literal sense of the word a complete waste of time voting for a president to me.
And he literally tried to take over the capitol building to stop the transfer of power, not to mention how his supreme court has been steadily uprooting our democratic rights.
It almost did. Jan 6th was a coup attempt.
On the campaign trail a day or two ago he literally said, “…we’ve been waging an all-out war on American democracy.”
But go on and insist it is “both sides” to up your edgelord cred. You’re never going to find any politician that agrees with you on every issue. Unless you get off your ass and run, which we know is too much effort for you.
He’s being charged with it because he CAN be linked directly to it. Half ass or not, it was a coup attempt. Saying it was half assed or not serious is exactly what people said about the Beer Hall Putsch. Look what happened after.
Hamas did not do this. Israel did this. None of this would be happening if they hadn’t been carrying out a genocidal project of colonialism and apartheid the last 75 years.
Then please enlighten us on the history of how occupying a foreign land and displacing, oppressing and murdering the indigenous population in order to build a racially pure society is not genocidal colonialism.
Yeah but Hamas also did this. Palestinians would regularly march against Hamas with the protest slogan “I want to live!”,
You’re stanning for the arab equivalent of the cops who got the “I can’t breathe” slogan out into the public consiousness.
They are the equal partner of the Israeli state in the continued war of genocide against the Palestinian people, who’ll just fuck off to egypt with their looted billions once the IDF decides to wipe gaza off the map.
Lmao I can take it just fine I’m not over here crying because you told me to go fuck myself I’m laughing because apparently that’s your strategy to get people to vote for a candidate they don’t like.
“I know you don’t like him and he’s explicitly said he won’t do anything you want but have you co sidereal go fuck yourself”
Wow you’ve really convinced me
Seems like we’re back where we started where we both think the other can fuck off and I’m deffinitly still not voting for somebody doing genocide
It was a coup attempt in the same way me screaming in my backyard is an attempt to become a super saiyan. Nothing happened. A bunch of meemaws and idiot conspiracy theorists milled about the house and Senate. They didn’t even have the gumption to take a shit on the podium.
They had their true enemies within spitting distance and none of them threw a bomb or fired a shot. They took selfies. Absolute morons.
Hey they had to shoot a gun exactly one time to get every single person to go home as soon as the concept of consequences metastasized in their brains.
Browbeating people into voting for a satanic right wing warmonger was a losing strategy in 2016 and it’s a losing strategy now. There is a massive chance now that Biden will lose as a direct result of his actions in Gaza. This is directly Biden’s fault and no amount of fearmomgering about January 6th will change it, for the record most people don’t really even care.
If you’re concerned about losing “our democracy”, blame the DNC. That they’re content with running a senile maniac who is actively facilitating a genocide should enrage you more than people online expressing their disgust with his criminal behavior.
Yea if democrats are so fucking concerned about democracy maybe they should, I don’t know, support one of the policies 80% of their base is loudly telling them matters to them.
I’ve never voted for any president you baby-brained jackass. You might as well worship the ground I step on because me not voting apparently helped Biden and Obama win, by your twisted logic
Well in 1/3 of US provisional elections in the 21st century, the candidate with the most votes has lost the election thanks to the electoral college. So even if they did go vote, there is a 1 in 3 chance that the candidate with the most votes loses the election.
Which is really weird because the US brands itself as the bastion of freedom and democracy internationally, yet they do not follow two of the most important principles of democracy itself. Those being one man equals one vote, and the candidate with the most votes wins. Lots of people in the USA effectively do not have a vote for president with how the electoral college is structured.
Thats literally what you useless dumb fucks said right before Hillary managed to lose the easiest election of a lifetime using the exact same strategy you’re using this time.
Maybe Biden will exceed expectations and actually go to states he depends on to win.
The 2004 2008 2012 2016 2020 2024 election is the most important election of our lives. Democracy is at stake and we need to hold our noses and vote for the lesser evil.
Isn’t it a bit different when one candidate/party has outright said they plan to take steps to end democracy, and has previously participated in an attempted coup?
Several hundred bored far right small business owners and boomer QAnon weirdos walking around the capitol for a few hours, stealing a few things and then one of them dying from tasering himself in the balls with absolutely no actual change in power is not a coup.
2000 was absolutely more of a coup than Jan 6th by almost every functional metric. Your main criticism of Jan 6th and Trump are based more on civility than actual policy. Nothing about Trump was uniquely terrible for a Republican president policy wise, he just said the quiet part out loud.
Wow, fuck you very much. Trump’s FAILED coup is more dangerous and egregious that Bush’s SUCCESSFUL coup? Trump’s complete lack of power is more dangerous than Bush redestroying the middle east on false pretences of chemical and nuclear weapons, mobilising terrorist attacks and organisations worldwide?
The only excuse for such a pathetically stupid statement is that you’re a little baby who wasn’t around for any of the last 2 decades and are just making things up based on vibes. “wah wah wah, I can’t remember bush so nothing must have happened”. You are an embarrassment. Delete your account and jump in the ocean.
no I’ve seen bush talk he is stupid. Bush didn’t get in trouble because he has manners. The establishment doesn’t hate Trump for who he is he’s an old money rich guy maing tax cuts and hating immigrants ffs he is the establishment. Trump gets in trouble because he has no filter and says things which make the American establishment look like a bunch of assholes in front of their society friends and in Europe
He is the most American president they’ve ever had and he’s just embarassing
He has the bag and then suffers consequences for apparently no gain besides saying what hogs want to hear whereas Bush also cut taxes, literally stole 2 elections, and lied the US into trillion dollar wars with no consequence and is seen as a painter now who makes Masterclasses
Trump says that shit because it gets attention and he also hasn’t actually faced consequences yet and is very much on track to win the republican nomination and I wouldn’t rule him out for presidency
Oh yeah I still think it’s a coin flip if he’s president in a year and change, don’t get me wrong, I just think Bush was able to accomplish all Trump did and much more with even less consequence
Thanks for another example of why voting for dema is a waste of time because they don’t even give a shit and will loose while claiming the moral high ground given the first possible opportunity.
also American elections are rigged anyway. Neither group of politicians really bothers campaigning outside their base they just both compete to rig the election so their base’s votes count more
About as long as it takes for you and your priv ilk to finally get that this is serious and stop having to be dragged kicking and screaming to the polling stations.
Not sure why the lol, I totally agree with this. US democracy has flaws that should be addressed, big ones being gerrymandering, electoral college (which will eventually go away due to NPVIC), and our judicial system.
Recent events have highlighted on a national stage weaknesses that must be fixed. Let’s get to work instead of throwing in the towel and allowing fascism to rise.
How many more of these stinking, double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote FOR something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils?
-Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72
not a single election in U.S. history has EVER had “democracy on the ballot.” We don’t have a fucking democracy. When’s the last time anyone has picked a candidate? Year after year, everyone I talk to irl and online despises both candidates. Try to tell someone making minimum wage to go wait in line at the polls to vote, missing those work hours would be literally detrimental. Even if all of those things were disregarded, the popular vote has been fucking ignored in several elections for a convoluted system that was founded by fucking slave owners. even if donald shart “removed democracy” what would change? because Trump’s policy is slightly worse than joe brandons? both of them will uphold the status quo, fund the zionist settler colony, lock up latinx immigrants in concentration camps, build a border wall, prolong the proxy war, expand the military industrial complex, continue a fierce grip on the imperial periphery, i could fucking go on. the dems had a presidency and a majority in Congress when roe was overturned and what did they do to try and stop it? NOTHING. no matter who wins, democracy will never be at stake because THERE IS NO DEMOCRACY. so try and tell me democracy is on the ballot again. fucking do it.
even if donald shart “removed democracy” what would change?
Nothing really, the real reason why most liberals hate Trump is because he doesn’t hide the fact that the USA is not a real democracy and is a fascistic state. Usually the democrats try to hide it better than the republicans, so their voters can sleep well without thinking about all the people the US kills outside and inside their country.
While there are two dominant political parties in the United States, every presidential election I’ve participated in has had more than two candidates to choose from. I’d appreciate it if you’d expand upon your point.
Because they’re an instrumental part of how the election process works for quite a while now. If a candidate is receiving 0 electoral votes they are functionally as electable as you or I.
You’ve more than proven yourself to be in bad faith here though, so you’ll have to pester someone else with future efforts.
I’m literally just asking you to explain your own understanding of presidential elections and that’s somehow acting in bad faith? What else am I supposed to do, given that you mistakenly believe that there are only two political parties in the US and, for some unknown reason, I’m an elector and not just a regular voter?
If you’re acting in good faith why did you not answer when I asked if you understood how our elections work?
If you’re acting in good faith where did I state you were an elector?
If you’re acting in good faith why are you badgering with a question that you already know the answer to?
No. You are not “literally just asking you to explain your own understanding of presidential elections” and you know it. You refuse to participate in the discussion in favor of your own, possibly with the intent of seeking some kind of so-called gotcha moment. It’s not coming. They’re are functionally two parties within our presidential elections.
Since 1900 a third party candidate has received more than 5% of the popular vote (that’s you and me) roughly 6 times. That number drops to about 4 if you want more than 10%. In that same time a third party candidate has received any votes from electors (which are outdated but still very much the ones who are counted thus important to the process as it exists) in 6 elections. The last one was in 1972.
And just to further reinforce, that’s any votes from electors. The highest in that time was in 1912 when Theodore Roosevelt received 88. George Wallace later got 46 in 1968 and Strom Thurmond managed 39 in 1948. They continue downward from there.
So no, as you’ve been told by others, a third party candidate is generally not electable in the system we have. This is why the system is often called a two party system despite the existence of third parties. You’ll notice in common parlance they’re not counted, they’re called third parties. This is not a controversial opinion I hold, it’s how it is widely discussed by laymen and experts alike.
But you already knew all that and instead chose to badger to try and, I can only assume, have some kind of moment or way you were right. You were acting in bad faith and I have no more time or energy for your type of “discussion”. Goodbye.
I ignored your bad faith questioning of my understanding of presidential elections for the sake of civility. Second, this thread is about votes cast in the general election, not the electoral college; as I’ve tried to make clear, I do not vote in the electoral college. Third, your Wikipedia data-dive is fascinating, but irrelevant to your theory that votes can be cast against candidates.
The US is under FPTP, only two candidates matter and voting outside those two or refusing to vote is mathematically identical to a vote for the candidate least aligned with your own values.
Face it: there are only two candidates who realistically have a chance at winning the general election. It’s been that way for every US election we’ve seen.
If you vote for someone who doesn’t have a realistic chance of winning, that’s about the same as just not voting at all.
So you really have 3 choices: candidate A, candidate B, or indifference.
And there are two possible outcomes: candidate A or candidate B.
If one of those outcomes is at all preferable to the other, (e.g. either A is “better” or B is “worse”), it’s strategically best to vote for the main candidate you prefer, since that increases the chance of getting your preference of the two outcomes.
So you’re ashamed to support it? Honestly that’s even worse. I understand quietly doing it because you think you have to but going around telling everyone about it and trying to convince them to as well doesn’t seem like shame to me. Seems like you’re proud about it
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