Female surgeons sexually assaulted while operating

Sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape have been referred to as surgery’s open secret.

There is an untold story of women being fondled inside their scrubs, of male surgeons wiping their brow on their breasts and men rubbing erections against female staff. Some have been offered career opportunities for sex.

The analysis - by the University of Exeter, the University of Surrey and the Working Party on Sexual Misconduct in Surgery - has been shared exclusively with BBC News.

Nearly two-thirds of women surgeons that responded to the researchers said they had been the target of sexual harassment and a third had been sexually assaulted by colleagues in the past five years.

Women say they fear reporting incidents will damage their careers and they lack confidence the NHS will take action.

Sterile_Technique,
@Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world avatar

Surgical tech, here.

Um… What the fuck? NHS, you need to get your shit together.

I’ve only worked in US military/civilian hospitals, so I can’t speak on the NHS, but in the US at least there’s no ‘open secret’ of sexual assault in surgery. At minimum you’ve got a surgeon, anesthesiologist, nurse, and tech in the room, so if any one of them tries to assault one of the others, it’ll be in plain view of two witnesses.

We’ve definitely got a few relics from another era (old perverts who constantly push boundaries), but even they know better than to try to do something physical. X-rated ‘jokes’ directed where they aren’t welcome is another story, but those aren’t some ‘open secret’ that we just tolerate, either: fucker’s getting told off and written up.

Surgeons especially are notorious for having a short temper and shit social skills, and HR won’t raise a fucking eyebrow over Drs creating a hostile work environment in pretty much any way -other- than sexual. But a sexual harassment/assault complaint? I’ve seen two of those put in (both at a private civ hospital, two different surgeons/incidents) and both times HR intervened that day. Wish I could have been a fly on the wall for those conversations, cuz whatever they threatened did the trick - surgeon was absolutely walking on egg shells from there on.

If there’s any open secret it’s “different spanks for different ranks” - if the accused was a nurse or tech, they’d be fired on the spot, where Drs are given much more leeway / second chances, but that difference is much more narrow when it comes to sexual harassment/assault.

The only way I can think they might get away with that shit is if no one’s reporting them, so if you see it, FUCKING SUBMIT A COMPLAINT TO HR.

Syrc,

Full stats by the way:

Among women, 63.3% reported being the target of sexual harassment versus 23.7% of men

29.9% of women had been sexually assaulted versus 6.9% of men

10.9% of women experiencing forced physical contact for career opportunities (a form of sexual assault) versus 0.7% of men

Being raped by a colleague was reported by 0.8% of women versus 0.1% of men

Not sure why it keeps being framed as “versus” like it’s some sort of competition and it doesn’t mean both sexes get sexually harassed and that’s not fucking okay for either.

iegod,

That’s a fundamental misunderstanding of scientific/mathematical language used in statistical studies.

Syrc,

Considering the title of the study is “Sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape by colleagues in the surgical workforce, and how women and men are living different realities: observational study using NHS population-derived weights”, I feel like the stress on the ratio is intentional.

ParsnipWitch,

I wonder if you also write this, but with genders reversed, under every report and article about “lonely men” or “men dying by suicide”.

Syrc,

Link me one article about men’s problems with depression that dismisses women’s problems like this one does and I can tell you my opinion.

ParsnipWitch, (edited )

?? Ok, that’s easy. This one for example: …org.au/…/men-in-rural-and-remote-areas

Or you can look at basically any post in this community: men@kbin.social

Syrc,

That’s not even an article. That’s a support page, in a support site, under the “men” section. Obviously they don’t mention women, like in support pages for women they don’t mention men.

And I’m not that great at using Kbin, but it seems to me the most upvoted article on that community is this one. From that article:

Furthermore, the absence of male teachers in early education can perpetuate gender stereotypes and suggest that caregiving is a women’s job.

In order to achieve gender equality, the researchers said, it is necessary to ensure that women have equal opportunities in traditionally male-dominated fields such as STEM while also creating opportunities for men to work in historically feminine/HEED positions.

That seems like pretty supportive for an article that should be on the same level of one that states “male and female surgeons live different realities” in the face of 1/4th of them having reported sexual harassment.

ParsnipWitch,

So your actual problem is the title of the article??

Than what about these: happiness.com/…/male-loneliness-time-bomb-killing…

hive.rochesterregional.org/…/men-loneliness-frien…

eu.usatoday.com/story/life/…/11162423002/

Syrc,

The title is indeed a problem since it would’ve cost them nothing to just remove “female” and have a gender-neutral one, but again, the issue is how dismissive it is towards men who suffered the same harassment they’re denouncing.

Those three pages have pretty much nothing close to that, and again they’re not really supposed to be unbiased articles: the first one is on a site for some sort of online course (I think?), the second is on a hospital’s site (and under the “Men’s Health” section), and while the third seems to be an actual news site, the article is very clearly just meant to promote that guy’s movie.

Closest to what annoyed me would be this paragraph from the first one:

According to a recent YouGov poll in the UK, almost one in five men (18 per cent) owned up to not having a single close friend. Furthermore, one in three (32 per cent) stated that they didn’t have a best friend. For women, these figures were lower at 12 and 24 per cent respectively, suggesting that, on average, men in the UK are leading more solitary lives compared to women.

Which also gives off a similar vibe of “yeah one woman out of four doesn’t have a best friend, but who cares about that”, and that’s definitely not ok, but it’s different to see that in a sketchy website compared to literally bbc.com. They’re both examples of unprofessional journalism, but I don’t think the ones at “happiness.com” are even meant to be journalists.

ParsnipWitch,

sciencefocus.com/…/how-loneliness-is-killing-men

Sciencefocus from the BBC

Syrc,

Still not the BBC itself, but it’s definitely more reputable and should probably not be glossing over female friendships declining as well. The linked article is also a bit too much focused on men, which is weird because the original one, on the same site and by the same author, seems to be much more gender-neutral.

So yes, I think that’s wrong too. Would I write a comment complaining about that if I saw it in a post? Not sure, being a male I’m probably biased and notice discrimination against men more than one against women. But if someone commented on it pointing out how that “men’s social circles are shrinking” should’ve been just titled “social circles are shrinking”, I would definitely agree.

stevedidWHAT,
@stevedidWHAT@lemmy.world avatar

Source for stats

Syrc,

academic.oup.com/bjs/advance-article/…/7264733?se…

Mandy,

what kind of sad pathetic waste of life do you have to be to GET HORNY WHILE SOMEONE ELSE IS CUTTING SOMEONE UP AND SEXUALLY ASSAULT SAID SKILLED SURGEON

RagingRobot,

Maybe they are turned on by how smart and skilled the surgeon is? Lol

MataVatnik,
@MataVatnik@lemmy.world avatar

Have you met/partied with medical students who are doing their residencies? I have, and my opinion of doctors has radically changed since then.

Franzia,

Oh dear. Elaborate?

MataVatnik,
@MataVatnik@lemmy.world avatar

28 year olds acting like 18 year olds.

ChaoticEntropy,
@ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk avatar

University living rolls on and on.

MataVatnik,
@MataVatnik@lemmy.world avatar

Pretty much, I saw something similar with PhD students. It’s like they are infantilized adults from being in school for so long.

alcamtar,

Even worse, to unleash an untrained surgeon out to the world in exchange for sex.

reverendsteveii,

You ever notice how in almost any industry, hobby, geographical area or any other demographic you care to pick, a story about sexual assault will get traction and then people in that demographic will be like “Yeah, sexual assault is kind of an open secret here”? Surgery. Fucking surgery. Someone is trying to give someone a new lease on life, a gift most precious that very few can bestow, and someone else is like “I’ll bet I can get a fistful of tiddy”, and an entire room full of people are like “This is fine and normal. Let’s not do anything about it.”

PersnickityPenguin,

To be honest I’m not surprised. Have you ever met a surgeon before? Quite a few assholes who think they’re King of the world.

Shou,

Found a study that looked at the correlation between difference in hierachial status within the workspace and sexual objectification. In short they found that women sexually objectify men regardless of status, men sexually objectified women of a higher status then them much more than women of lower status.

I wonder if this plays in here as well. Since surgery has some of the most arrogant asshats regardless of gender.

Shit like this keeps making me lose trust in men. Having some decent male friends who are married and have kids, counter balances it. Though now, I always assume that any man is perfectly capable of being a predator.

Sharpiemarker,

Noah get the damn boat…

TheKrunkedJuan,

Get a spaceship at this rate

Mrderisant,

Apparently when I’m coming out of anesthesia I’m a massive perv and will make really inappropriate come ons to the medical staff. I feel even worse about it now that I know they already have to deal with it from their coworkers. I already warn them that it happens so at least they are forwarned right?

KairuByte,
@KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I think generally, they understand that you’re not in control of yourself. It’s like being drunk, but you didn’t make the choice to drink in this case.

A bit of an assumption on my part, since I’m not medical staff. And of course it won’t be universal.

Ser_Salty,

Like being blackout drunk to the point you’re not even aware you’re awake, while you’re awake

Sterile_Technique,
@Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world avatar

Surgical tech, here. ^spot on.

We do, however, appreciate the warning if you know ahead of time that you wake up pervy, angry, violent, terrified etc.

For example, I’m a bigger guy, so if I know you wake up swinging fists, I’m going to make sure I’m near your upper body when you wake up so I can stop you from hurting yourself, one of my coworkers, or myself.

If you’ve got PTSD or something and wake up terrified (we see this with vets a lot - their first thought is that they’ve been captured), then I’m going focus on cleaning up my back table when you wake up so the first thing you see isn’t some big hairy dude; and let whoever on the team is the best at verbal de-escalation take the position by your upper body so they can reassure you as you’re waking up.

And if it’s your first surgery, we’ll adjust as we go.

lightnsfw,

This is a huge fear of mine. I’ve not been anesthetized since I was a kid but I have a filthy mind. I worry what will come out of my mouth if I’m ever in that situation. I wish I could be like “can you just gag me til I sober up”?

Beliriel,

Would that be with a piece of cloth, a ball or a dick?

TruTollTroll,
@TruTollTroll@lemmy.world avatar

Who remembers the show scrubs and the few times we saw episodes around the female surgeons in the show. There was one chick that got under Turk’s skin but she was the better surgeon… kelso took turk to medical conference and the only reason why in the show was cause of the other surgeons gender… then there was the blond boss of Turk who specifically talks about the targeted harassment… this was all early 2000-2010s…

reverendsteveii,

Who else remembers the Todd?

TruTollTroll,
@TruTollTroll@lemmy.world avatar

Todd five! 🙏 Alright!

datavoid,

I always get erections while cutting people too

/s

Bison1911,

This is basically the story of how a scary number of serial killers became serial killers.

bobman,

Google glass was a good idea.

solstice,

men rubbing erections against female staff

Imagine getting aroused while working, doing surgery, surrounded by other people. I would think any one of those three would preclude the possibility.

LetterboxPancake,

Imagine doing this to someone with both the scalpel and the knowledge of how to use it.

Azzu,

Meh, I’ve gotten erections in the weirdest circumstances, it’s not necessarily happening because of the situation, but in spite of it. Still would’ve never thought to rub it on someone, lol

lightnsfw,

Sometimes it seems like my dick just has it’s own section of my brain that’s just unaffected by everything else that may be happening…

That doesn’t mean I act on it or SA people though.

Eezyville,
@Eezyville@sh.itjust.works avatar

I would guess it is how they respond to a highly stressful environment. But that would only excuse the arousal, not the sexual assault.

alcamtar,

Maybe they’re getting an erection cuz they’re falling asleep of boredom

IWantToFuckSpez, (edited )

I heard that among surgeons there are a lot who have a personality disorder like narcissism or they are straight up sociopaths. Because of the prestige and power that comes with the job. Some feel like they are some sort of god because they have so much control over someone’s life when a patient lies on the table.

Not a surprise to me that this shit happens in the hospital.

theragu40,

I think there’s also something to the idea that it takes someone who is a little…“off” for them to be able to cut other people open for their job. You have to be able to dehumanize them to a certain extent.

I worked in a hospital for a few years, and the folks working in the ORs were definitely the most interesting and often most intimidating crowd, and you did NOT fuck with the surgeons, they were the kings and queens of the floor.

PP_BOY_, (edited )
@PP_BOY_@lemmy.world avatar

The training pretty much filters neurotypicals. Most well-adjusted people won’t sacrifice their entire life for a career and don’t suffer from a savior complex that compels them to save lives. I’m certainly not advocating that surgery is unnecessary or that surgeons are bad people by default, but it takes a fair level of narcissism to put yourself in that position IMO

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Wait, so Scrubs was right about surgeons?

dan1101,

Most jokes are based in truth. Except absurdist humor.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Sure, I just didn’t expect ‘The Todd’ to be systemic.

Gawanoh,

I heard scrubs is right about a lot of things.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

It’s just weird for a sitcom, but I guess it also had plenty of serious moments.

Chetzemoka,
Chetzemoka avatar

Am nurse. Can confirm. Scrubs is right about a LOT of things

JustAManOnAToilet,

How many Jello puddings have you stolen?

Chetzemoka,
Chetzemoka avatar

How dare you! I would NEVER!!

(Unwanted cookies on the other hand, fair game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

TruTollTroll,
@TruTollTroll@lemmy.world avatar

Help me steal this, or we check the back of your trunk?

-Janitor

PickTheStick,

You have my attention, because I have always thought gelatin and pudding were separate and distinct cups.

JustAManOnAToilet,

They are, but both are made by the Jell-O brand.

iheartneopets,

My ER doc husband says it’s probably the most accurate medical show

aksdb,

How’s his opinion of janitors?

stopthatgirl7,
stopthatgirl7 avatar

Can a giant meteor just strike the earth already?

Falafels,

There’s another way, if we can just entice the jerky surgeons to eat some bovine tuberculosis.

ParkingPsychology,

No need. Homo sapiens is near the end anyway. Doesn't matter how it ends, if we get replaced by AIs, the next "Homo geneticmodified"or get wiped out. Kind of awesome to know, right? After 250,000 years, we're among one of the last Homo sapiens. Peak Homo sapiens.

You know what that means, "Homo sapiens"? It means "wise man".

We're going to get completely ridiculed for doing that in the future. Who the fuck even calls themselves "wise man". So lame.

DessertStorms, (edited )
DessertStorms avatar

I absolutely disagree that humanity needs to be destroyed because a bunch of men can't stop sexually abusing those around them (and if this is how they treat their co-workers, just imagine what they do to patients and other more vulnerable people), but the fact that it seems easier than ever getting them to stop really goes to show how bad the problem really is.

ParsnipWitch,

I feel like some people simply want that this gets accepted as natural. It has become normalized and many feel triggered by even mentioning this problem.

agent_flounder,
@agent_flounder@lemmy.one avatar

There are so many other reasons though…

query,

Even if you had like no morals at all, that type of behavior has to disqualify someone from being a surgeon. They’re sabotaging the work they’re supposed to be doing.

Guy_Fieris_Hair,

“Dear neurosurgeon man, I know you have like 15 years of college and 20 years of experience and you are the only qualified neurosurgeon in 100 mile radius but remember that one time you rubbed your dick on that intern? Yeah, your going to need to let the next 15 patients die and we are going to need to let you go. I know it downgrades us from a level one trauma center, hundreds of people might die, and we will lose MILLIONS of dollars by letting you go, but it’s the right thing to do” - Said no chief of surgery ever.

They just pay the lawsuits and move on. It’s shitty, and it’s why surgeons are giant dicks. They don’t have to treat conscious patients and they get away with anything because they are nearly irreplaceable.

bobman,

To be fair, I’d rather have surgeons be above the law than rich people.

At least they’re doing something good for society.

query,

They’re getting in the way of their own replacements, creating a hostile environment preventing people from working and gaining experience.

dogslayeggs,

Everything you said is true, and it fucking sucks.

SSUPII,

While the report shows men are also subject to some of this behaviour (24% had been sexually harassed), it concludes men and women surgeons are “living different realities”.

What do you mean “living different realities”. It’s the same reality where people cannot stay for themself, no matter who they are. They unhappy with their life and so want to force themself on others? They can force their head in dirt

Jumpinship,

Weird nitpick on the article. I could do the same for your comment

fanta69,

I could do the same for your comment

But will you?

Syrc,

Article talking about female surgeons and their struggles at work

“Oh by the way one in four male surgeons gets sexually harassed too”

Article keeps talking about women

Like, really what the fuck? Why is that just a small thing in the middle of the article that’s presented as barely relevant? Would it have hurt them to remove “female” from the headline and have the article talk about the whole culture, maybe interviewing a male as well?

Seriously, the double standard is ridiculous. The entire field seems to be corrupt and fucking horrible to work in, but only one side of the coin matters?

SSUPII,

“But that’s not an issue because they are living a different reality”

Seriously, those two words are what make me angry about the article mostly, not only the way too small and degrading talk about this happening to the other gender too.

SpiderShoeCult,

‘tought it out, buttercup’ and other things along the same lines get (got?) pistoned into boys’ minds as soon as they are (were?) able to understand it. would they even know what being on the receiving end of sexual assault is growing up? high school level jokes say that it’s only assault if it comes from a source you do not specifically approve of. been a while since I’ve been in high school but I would imagine no significant change has happened lately? or, at least there was no significant change for the generations mentioned in the article.

point being, it’s unpleasant, but different realities are, it seems, still a thing. maybe this’ll get fixed in a couple more generations?

I wonder how many respondents of the traditional male upbringing were truthful in their answers (after all, admitting you were sexually assaulted is not the ‘manliest’ of traits in said dogma…)

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