How about if Israel treats Palestinians with dignity? That would make Hamas disappear just the same, just without the dead bodies of seven thousand children.
Yeah? You, a random person on the internet, are sure that just this simple step solves the 80 years existing conflict?
I am in favor of 2 states and in favor of minimizing death and pain in Gaza and in favor of giving people in Gaza a perspective, but that does not make the terroristic Hamas dictatorship disappear.
Gaza needs to get rid of Hamas and Israel needs to get rid of Netanyahu.
Yeah, me, a random person on the internet can Google research about deradicalization and realize that what Israel is doing is going to backfire within the next decade.
With Hamas (Their primary goal is to destroy Israel) at power, this conflict will NEVER end.
The only chance to end it is with a Gaza that is not controlled by a terroristic organization with the primary goal to destroy Israel.
I think, at this point, there is no way back.
If Israel manages to get rid of Hamas, there is a chance to end this and prevent more death and pain in the future. If Israel stops right now and Hamas keeps the power, it will backfire for sure.
That’s a question for the “war cabinet” of Israel.
Even with only 1 head, the “Hydra” caused horrendous damages and will do it again.
IMO, cease-fire with Hamas is like cease-fire with Putin or cease-fire with Hitler. It’s just a time to prepare for the next stage of the conflict. Again and again and again and again. But as long as the people in power stay the same, it won’t end.
Look at the Wikipedia article of Hamas and search for “cease-fire”… That’s not a new concept in this conflict.
We better hope, they have. And I don’t think, their strategy is based on “Let’s destroy and decide afterwards”. The Israel opposition is also involved in the decision.
2.3 million people will not starve to death
The 2.3 million is obviously exaggerated. That’s the total population, but I accept that argument. Cease-fire can reduce “starving to death”, but it’s clear, that temporary “peace” is not permanent peace.
IMO, Netanyahu has a time window for external support. The longer this takes, the less the support. And that’s why they are pushing this operation.
I hope, this ends with a Hamas out of power, followed by the Israel opposition getting rid of Netanyahu, who is very unpopular since the attack on Israel. With a new government in Gaza and a new one in Israel, maybe, this gives them the opportunity to solve this conflict.
Let me explain the Hydra effect to you, maybe you don’t get it… Them taking this approach is guaranteed to create the next extremist group within a few years. Israel has already created the next Hamas.
Them taking this approach is guaranteed to create the next extremist group within a few years
I’d disagree that is guaranteed.
Trying to get rid of Hamas => There is a chance to resolve this forever. Maybe, this will fail. Maybe, it won’t.
Not doing anything => There is an extremist group (Hamas) and they will attack again, because their main goal is to destroy Israel. That’s what they say.
Come on… You compared Hamas with a hydra, not me. All my previous comments are pretty much signalizing that the hydra comparison is bad, because there is a chance to beat Hamas and solve the problem.
Just because you make that comparison does not make it a fact that trying to get rid of Hamas results in a new extremist organization.
Either we talk about the conflict between Hamas and Israel or about Greek mythology… 😉
The Hydra effect basically means that for every fighter you kill, two new ones will emerge. Killing the whole family of a young man or women, where do you think that would lead them? That’s because the root cause (oppression of Palestinians) is never solved. In fact, Israel is now making it worse with genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Causing violence, mayhem, and oppression is what brought Hamas about, and it’s what Israel is doing again to bring more Hamas-like factions about.
I am now completely convinced you don’t understand what the Hydra effect is at all.
No, of course not!!!1111 It’s very difficult to understand the word!!!111 Totally impossible to apply the “you slice 1 head off and 2 new ones appear” on the Hamas conflict to get “for every fighter you kill, two new ones will emerge”… Only you are able to do this /s
The Hydra effect basically means that for every fighter you kill, two new ones will emerge.
Good job. And now, you need to understand this: I don’t believe, that your theory “WE WILL FOR SURE EXPERIENCE THE HYDRA EFFECT” necessarily applies here!!
Do you understand that??
You act like it’s a fact that it’s 100% impossible that Israel could get rid of Hamas and that a new Gaza government and a new Israel government can find a persistent solution. It’s not.
You can not negotiate a persistent peace with an organization that has the main goal to destroy Israel. Their main goal is not a separate state. Their main goal is to destroy Israel!! Please tell me how you’d negotiate with them…
Hamas is a pain in the *** for Israel, but also for the civilians in Gaza. If Hamas stays, there won’t be peace and we make sure that even more generations of people die there.
You don’t believe in this thing expects have studied?
You believe, there will be peace with a terror organization that wants to destroy Israel?
There is probably no expert who says that there is a 100% guarantee that there must be a new Hamas after the current Hamas, just because Israel destroys it. That’s in your head. It’s not a fact, not a quote from any expert.
US gas a long history of single-handedly bullying entire UN with their veto power.
Many of the US’s vetos would’ve been voted against by other countries and/or vetoed by France/UK if the US weren’t there. The US is a convient country to take the fall.
Nationally, currently yes. But not completely. Granted they are trying to smear and attack every Democrat that has. But I think Talib and others. Are relatively safe at their local level.
But why though? This is literally the only thing that the GOP and democrats agree on and it’s a totally dysfunctional level of allegiance to Israel above any other nation. It doesn’t make sense. Bibi is a total douche and they are clearly committing war crimes over there. Hamas sucks but should we really be standing shoulder to shoulder with Israel on this one?
Not supporting Israel goes against every profit incentive that the oil, military, and other megacorporations have. EU may not like to say it as openly, but they want this to continue too.
Human lives don’t matter in the face of capitalist profit after all.
Don’t you think the lives of 2.3 million starving people is more pressing now than that? A ceasefire would also allow hostages out.
As for Hamas surrendering, it won’t matter. I think Bibi is delusional and just wants this for power-tripping. Hamas will never really even be able to surrender simply because they are born from the oppression that Israel pours on Palestinians, and as long as Israel maims and kills and buries full families under their own homes, Hamas by that name or any other will ALWAYS emerge within a year.
Even with handling an extremist group, Israel poured fuel on the fire and is pouring some more. Everyone knows this, everyone is appalled and shocked at how fucking dumb Israel is being right now.
The “unconditional surrender of Hamas” is Bibi’s kinky fantasy. It means nothing in the practical sense.
But yes good luck getting people who were killed and tortured and kept in poverty by Israel to surrender…
You would never expect Israel to surrender to a more powerful enemy.
You’re not exactly up to date on current events. There was a weeklong ceasefire that ended a few days ago, hamas violated it by launching rockets at israeli cities and refusing to release more hostages.
Several have been injured and taken back to hospitals in the south of the territory, reported Al Jazeera’s Tareq Abu Azzoum, from Khan Younis in southern Gaza.
Two were shot and killed by Israeli troops and another 11 were wounded in the legs. An AP journalist reported seeing two bodies and the wounded as they arrived at a hospital.
I feel like I’m in the twilight zone when people talk about this issue, like people watching all of this and still defending Israel are all living on another fucking planet. Some literally 1984 “war is peace/we’ve always been at war with East Asia” shit.
Remember all the countries that voted yes population and all these in the US and UK who don’t agree with theirs government feel the same.
This is clearly a small interest group that own the US government and UK government and their military and these two will do anything to support thir interests regardless of what people want. It is a dictatorship but instead of one ruler you have a few rich people and companies…
Oh is that right? I suppose my actual endeavors of advocating for support for Palestine in my state is completely made the fuck up. I guess all those resources I helped gather for Palestinians are illegitimate.
Good job mate. Proud of you. Maybe don’t tell people advocating for Palestine on the internet to go fuck off though.
Biden is sending billions in bombs to genocide Palestinians with. Defense of this is unjustifiable and is to me as disgusting as defending Putin when he invaded Ukraine, if not more disgusting.
It’s time Americans wake up and open their eyes to the disgusting foreign policies of both parties.
~70%of Americans want a cease fire. Another nail in the democracy coffin. Same thing in Canada less the veto. Our governments are beating to a different drum that is not the voice of the people they supposedly represent.
Correction. 70% of people no doubt prefer, in a very abstract way, that Israelis and Palestinians weren’t killing each other. Because innocent civilians dying is bad. But 99% of people don’t “want” a ceasefire if it involves even the slightest amount of effort or concession or cost on their part, nor do they want to dive into the complexities of the Middle East. The quality of that “want” is very, very low. It is more of an abstract preference, really.
That is the saying. Sailing to weather in a stiff breeze for any significant length of time is often unpleasant, unless one is racing. It’s hard on the boat, too. After a while, one learns to sail with the wind whenever possible rather than fight nature.
Where did you get that 90% figure. Not going to disagree though as it is likely correct but the reality is it is already costing Americans money to not have a ceasefire so unsure your point.
There are lots and lots of polls about Americans wanting a cease fire which range in % but all around 70%. +- 10.
Americans in general have next to no understanding of how aid and funding works, so any poll taken about providing aid or funding is inherently worthless.
People are stupid. That’s why they vote for shit like Trump, Brexit, and cutting military aid to allies.
Obviously I made up the 99% figure as a rhetorical device mirroring the earlier 70% figure as a way of inserting my opinion about the nature of the 70% figure.
Where are you getting this 70% number from? Did they do a national vote on the topic? Or maybe it’s just a pulling number you read somewhere and now parrot without source.
Hardly a nail in any coffin. This is exactly how representative democracy works. You vote for someone to represent you in the government. Those someone’s collaborate to the best of their ability to make policies and decisions. Don’t like their policies and decisions. Vote for someone else.
This is the important point. The “see your leaders didn’t do perfectly so you should ditch them” is usually followed by “for right-wingers whom you will not need to question because shut up”, and I am really worried when people so quickly give up “passable” solutions for horrible alternatives – and while our governments are effectively two-party systems, the cruel far-right alternatives are usually the only option.
For anyone else wondering "why did the US veto it?" rather than jumping to an emotional reaction, the article explains the US's position:
U.S. deputy ambassador Robert Wood called the resolution “imbalanced” and criticized the council after the vote for its failure to condemn Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack on Israel in which the militants killed about 1,200 people, mostly civilians, or to acknowledge Israel’s right to defend itself. He declared that halting military action would allow Hamas to continue to rule Gaza and “only plant the seeds for the next war.”
“Hamas has no desire to see a durable peace, to see a two-state solution,” Wood said before the vote. “For that reason, while the United States strongly supports a durable peace, in which both Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace and security, we do not support calls for an immediate cease-fire.”
After everything Israeli people have been saying to Palestinian people over the last couple months, there’s no excuse nor any reason for the US to veto anything or have any say in the matter whatsoever
“We will not be supporting a call for a full cease fire as it would allow the democratically elected government currently in charge to continue to be in charge, potentially jeopardizing the future peace”
Putting aside the fact that I don’t think Hamas would win an election today (if they’d allow one), how is Israel not just as likely to break this “durable peace”.
Calling for an end to violence on an immediate basis and being upset when your own government is again going against the will of it’s citizens, choosing to back a military that’s vastly superior to their enemies and barely even whispering a comment on the brutality they’re committing on the civilian population of their adversary, isn’t jumping to an emotional reaction because we all already figured that was the reason anyway
We will not be supporting a call for a full cease fire as it would allow the democratically elected government currently in charge to continue to be in charge
Putting aside the fact that I don’t think Hamas would win an election today (if they’d allow one)
You really wrote this out and thought it made sense.
In the same way Zeleneskyy isn’t going to hold elections at this time, I doubt Hamas would either, although I think the sentiment between the leader and their citizens are completely different between the two.
There can be nuance here, I don’t LIKE that they were democratically elected and definitely took a greater grip than granted by that election, but this is the 57th time we’ve decided to assist in the deposition of a foreign power and government that, although I think are commitering terrible atrocities, only became so popular and so radicalized due to the mistreatment of their population by the Israeli government assisted by the financial and militaristic aid already given to them by the United States.
People elect dictators all the time for all kinds of reasons, this one just happens to be deeply entrenched in our geopolitical expansion and security game and the harm inflicted on the citizens of palestine is partially our government’s fault and they and so many of us refuse to acknowledge that.
Hamas seized power because he PA was trying to form a secular state, as part of a two-state solution. Upon seizing power, they immediately canceled elections forever. Then, they stole aid money from their own people, blocked the UNRWA from distributing further aid (and did so again during this conflict) and forced them to teach genocide against Jews in schools. This is all in addition to torturing and murdering any Palestinian dissidents who oppose Hamas.
Shit, during this very conflict, Hamas literally shot people fleeing south, because maximizing civilian casualties is a stated goal of theirs.
I dont disagree with the statement that there’s nothing redeeming about them. I agree they are a bad organization that is ALSO causing harms to the citizens of Palestine.
All I’m asking you to agree to is that the people of Palestine would benefit from a cease fire, if only to reduce the total number of civilian deaths. They cause civilian death, and so does Israel, but as long as the conflict is hot and active, that death and suffering is at it’s zenith.
All I’m asking you to agree to is that the people of Palestine would benefit from a cease fire, if only to reduce the total number of civilian deaths. They cause civilian death, and so does Israel, but as long as the conflict is hot and active, that death and suffering is at it’s zenith.
A) this has nothing to do with Hamas
B) my opinion will not influence this situation at all
Actual question: why in the fuck can the US veto actions by the UN? Can other countries veto as well? Or is it only the US that can do that with the implied threat we’d swing our militaristic dick around or something?
EDIT: Thank y’all for replying and informing me and any other readers about why this is a thing. You guys are da real MVPs 👊
Yes, the other countries are China, France, Russia and the UK. These are the Security Counsel states of the UN, seen by many as a peace-keeping organization.
Wikipedia notes that
They also happen to be the nuclear-weapon states (NWS) under the terms of the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons.
Also on a completely unrelated note, here is the list of the top 5 arms dealers:
Russia has been vetoing peacekeeping forces in Novorossiya since 2014, for example. China has been vetoing investigations into Uyghur genocide too. Also this particular resolution is fucking stupid as is the whole Arab-world sponsored money laundering machine of Palestine rights council of the UN. People don’t understand that “supporting Palestine” is literally the same as supporting Vova, Xi, Kim, Assad and Khamenei since they’re all the same totalitarian terrorist axis.
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