‘Hamas is not a terrorist group,’ says UN Relief Chief Martin Griffiths

UN Relief Chief Martin Griffiths told a representative from Sky News on Wednesday that he did not consider Hamas to be a terrorist group.

Asked about the feasibility of Israel’s military goal to eliminate Hamas and disallow the terrorist group from having any governing say in Gaza, Griffiths responded “Hamas is not a terrorist group for us, as you know, it is a political movement. But, I think it is very very difficult to dislodge these groups without a negotiated solution; which includes their aspirations.

“I cannot think of an example offhand of a place where a victory through warfare has succeeded against a well-entrenched group, terrorist or otherwise.”

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Probably not the best thing to say.

Palestinians aren’t terrorists. Hamas? Terrorists. Funded by Iran no less. And that’s why Netanyahu made sure they got control of Gaza. So he could have an excuse to wipe out the people there.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Then israel would be put on the Nazi list funded by America.

Hamas is a resistance group just like the ANC in south Africa. Though Hamas has a significantly lower civilian casualty rate than the ANC.

Calling them terrorists is like calling Nelson Mandela a terrorist.

If israel wants peace they will need to negotiate with Hamas for a solution. And pretending that’s impossible is the exact problem. And exactly what israel wants you to say.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/b8d11d80-bdac-4bfa-83e9-3206554550c5.jpeg

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t remember the ANC being funded by a fundamentalist theocratic regime.

Also, you think I support Israel when I literally said they found an excuse to wipe out the people of Gaza?

Or did you just not read my post very carefully?

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Hamas is very moderate compared to groups like ISIS or israel.

There’s Christians living in Gaza being killed by israel not Hamas.

Hamas doesn’t try to create a “Muslim only state” like Zionists do for their Apartheid.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Is it a contest?

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

No this is you not being informed and consuming too much propaganda.

Saying Hamas needs to disappear is equally as unproductive as saying israel needs to disappear.

And israel is by far the worse of these two groups.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

When did I say Hamas needs to disappear or that Israel needs to disappear? Please quote me.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

You said it was an excuse to wipe out Gaza in your first comment.

But factually It is not an excuse. Because negotiations with them are very possible. Hamas has very high credibilty on their promises (which people here don’t like to hear)

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

In other words, I never said that Hamas needs to disappear.

You think Gaza = Hamas?

Because it doesn’t.

What I said was that Netanyahu wants to wipe out Gaza (and The West Bank.) Hamas was how he found an excuse to do it. I mean this isn’t a secret. Even some Israelis admit it.

So maybe don’t accuse me of supporting Israel when you imply that everyone in Gaza is Hamas.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Okay so do you believe that Hamas needs to disappear for peace to be achieved or not?

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

What peace? Israel doesn’t want peace. They want to completely wipe out Palestine. You don’t conduct a genocide and just agree to stop.

Also, why are you asking me if I believe that now when you already accused me (falsely) of saying it? You could, at the very least, acknowledge that what you said about me wasn’t true.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Sure, if that wasn’t what you believe I apologize for misinterpreting it and retract my previous comments.

DemBoSain,
@DemBoSain@midwest.social avatar

Hamas killed kids at a music festival. They’re terrorists.

They’re also freedom fighters, the two aren’t mutually exclusive.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

What are kids doing at drug rave? First time I hear of children being killed at the rave.

1 infant got killed on Oct 7.

8 kids under 10.

36 kids total.

And

373 IDF soldiers.

Israel kills twice as many children each day as Hamas did in total on Oct7.

ieatpillowtags,

Very common to refer to young adults as kids. To me, anyone under 25 is a kid. Pretending that you don’t understand that just makes it obvious that you’re not arguing in good faith.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

The IDF is sending teenagers into Gaza. At least one 19 year old IDF terrorist has been killed in Gaza.

Your logic would imply israel is using child soldiers.

If you’re old enough to commit genocide you’re an adult.

ieatpillowtags,

You also know damn well that “child soldier” is a term with specific implications so now it’s confirmed that you’re twisting words instead of addressing the actual content.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

I’m using your own words to show you the hypocrisy of how you selectively apply standards.

If you say that’s twisting words then you are the one who’s doing the twisting.

ieatpillowtags,

Show me where I said child soldier, you bald faced liar.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Very common to refer to young adults as kids. To me, anyone under 25 is a kid.

ieatpillowtags,

Once again the term “child soldier” carries implications much different than just “kids”. So no, I didn’t say that. I wouldn’t disagree that most IDF soldiers are kids. But you already knew it was different and so you’re being dishonest.

DemBoSain,
@DemBoSain@midwest.social avatar

Israel’s actions have nothing to do with my assessment of Hamas as a terrorist organization.

I don’t remember saying “children”. Let’s check…nope, I used the word kids. They killed “kids” at a “music festival”. What you do at parties isn’t my business.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

They claimed I said something I didn’t say too.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Do explain the word “fundamentalist” for Hamas if you know your linguistics so well.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Seriously, do you read anyone’s comments or do you just reply to people at random and just say random shit?

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

You used the word fundamentalist in your comment to describe Hamas. Explain the word and how it applies to Hamas as you clearly have no idea what Hamas even is.

FlyingSquid,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Please read what I wrote, because you clearly did not read it. Either that or you’re just lying. But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it’s the former.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

No those words mean exactly the same. Kids is short for children.

So you have a source for children being killed there?

Interesting how it is a music festival with children now instead of a drug rave.

DemBoSain,
@DemBoSain@midwest.social avatar

Where you from, Linkerbaan? Children is plural for child. A child is below the age of puberty. A kid is a young person. Get your terminology straight.

Also, your behavior at parties and festivals is none of my business. I don’t care what you do as long as it doesn’t harm others.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

So aside from your amazing jargon, I’ll ask you the same question in your words:

Where is the evidence of the children you claimed were killed at the music festival?

You don’t ever seem to answer the actual question. Deflect dodge deflect dodge.

DemBoSain,
@DemBoSain@midwest.social avatar

Listen to you, reflecting upon dodges and deflections. If you can’t understand the difference between kids and children, there’s nothing more I can say.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

It’s clear that you have no evidence for your claim. Thank for proving I am right.

girlfreddy,
@girlfreddy@lemmy.ca avatar

It amazes me when people like yourself dig the hold deeper and deeper, then wonder why it’s getting so dark all of a sudden.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Sorry link me the evidence of the children you claim are killed at the music festival I can only read some bullshit above here.

Icalasari,

A resistance group can still be terrorists. Terrorists are just people who commit acts of terrorism to accomplish a goal. Sometimes a group may commit them purely as a bargaining chip - "Stop attacking us and our people, or we'll commit more terroristic acts in response"

It's just embedded in public preception that terrorists won't ever stop doing it until they are stopped due to terrorists being an easy group to make villains in media as terroristic actions are horrific by design

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Partially but there are two legal problems,

  • Israel is an Occupier and has no protection under International Law so cannot be protected by laws on terrorism.
  • UNGA Resolution 37/43 affirmed the legitimacy of the struggle for independence, territorial integrity, national unity, and liberation from foreign domination and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle. This resolution openly recognized the right of occupied people to use force against foreign illegal occupation.
jj4211,

The most recent spark was an attack directed at civilians on what not be considered occupied territory. Armed struggle may be understandable, but this context is out of line.

It’s really rough because they have done something which must be condemned, but after many years of nothing working to improve their lot in other ways. Then Israel retaliated in a way that must almost be condemned.

ESH and it is just so depressing…

Linkerbaan, (edited )
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

No it was a very targeted attack against military bases.

This is Jeremy Scahill, Co-founder and writer for the intercept explaining what actually happened on Oct 7 in a video

youtu.be/BUtnJuzC_gc?t=2m4s

Grant_M,
@Grant_M@lemmy.ca avatar

Incorrect. Hamas IS INDEED a terrorist group.

Aceticon,

It’s an Insurgent Movement (aka a Resistance) that at times uses terrorist tactics because it’s in a hugelly asymetrical military position (Israel has nukes, Hamas has homemade rockets).

Whilst I disagree with those tactics of theirs were they attack civilians for the terror, that doesn’t stop the fact that calling them “terrorists” and trying to crush them with violence against the very civilian population they hail from isn’t going to stop it because they’re not a “Terrorist Movement” (in that terror is not at all their core objective), they’re an Insurgent or Resistance Movement whose core reason to exist is to expel the occupiers and oppressors: more violence by the oppressors is only going to drive more civilians to be come part of that Resistance quite independently of israelis calling them “terrorists” (especially since the IDF is killing way more civilians and causing way more terror than Hamas ever did, so the “terrorist” label and the sanctions that go along with it in this case are clearly hypocrisy and propaganda otherwise it would be used for the IDF and Israel would be under heavier sanctions than Russia)

bigschnitz,

By your definition there is no such thing as a “terrorist movement”. Outside of lone Wolf insane people, no terrorists objective is to create terror purely for terrorsnsake. Terrorism is the tool they use to pursue their objectives. It’s right there in the definition of terrorism.

the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

The IRA bombings of London were because they wanted the UK to leave northern Ireland, Al Quieda orchestrated September 11th to scare Americans out of supporting their agenda in the middle east. The US nukes in japan were to force Japan’s surrender in world war 2. Every major act of terrorism has a specific goal. Hamas is no different, their goal is to destroy the state of Israel. Israel being invaders, terrorists, thieves etc doesn’t change that Hamas is a terrorist organization.

Aceticon, (edited )

Well, by that established-powers created definition every single act of war meant to cower civilians or other states is terrorism unless in committed in one’s own homeland (this latter exception because governments can make sure it’s “lawful” where they are soverign, but their law does not extend outside their borders)

  • Bombing of Dresden during WWII: terrorism
  • What Israel is doing right now in Gaza and all pretty much every single action of Israel in Palestine, outside it’s UN approved borders: terrorism
  • Almost every single United States military operation, cover and overt outside it’s own borders: terrorism

By your very own statement (unproven, I might add) that an organization that commits acts of terrorism per that definition is a “terrorist movement”, then the US is a “terrorist movement”, as is Israel and for example just about every nation that invaded Iraq (as there was no UN mandate, hence it wasn’t lawful and a lot of actions done there were definitelly “use of violence and intimidation” for the most definitelly “political” aim of changing the government there).

Interestingly enough by your definition what Nazi Germany did to the Jews inside its own borders was not terrorism, because it was “lawful” in Germany at the time.

More in general there is no such thing as “State Terrorism” by that definition because they’re the ones who have the power in the country where they are using terrorism against their own people for political ends because - guess what?! - they make the laws so it’s lawful hence per that definition not terrorism.

Oh, and Hamas’ attack against the kibutzes in Israel might very well not be terrorism by that definition because the land were it happenned is contested hence it might very well be that the sovereignty over that land is not Israel’s but Palestinian, so it might very well be totally lawful what Hamas did because Hamas makes the laws over there.

(I mean, if by that definition Hamas’ actions on the 7th might or not be terrorism depending on where exactly are the UN recognized borders, that has got to be a shit definition for “terrorism”)

That’s the flaw in that carefully crafted definition of “terrorism” meant to exclude nation states using the carte blanche for those in power which is “lawfull”: in a situation were an occupying power is in somebody else’s nation, their actions there are not lawful because they’re not the ones who are entitled to make the laws there and, converselly, if Hamas goes on a rampage on Israeli occupied Palestinian land it’s not terrorism because it’s “lawful” because the laws of the State Of Israel do not officially apply there.

I mean, I’m perfectly happy if the hypocrisy is dropped and, alongside Hamas, everybody starts designating the State of Israel as Terrorists (which they are per your own definition) and Anti-Terrorism legislation is enforced against them and their supporters. Also seing Bush and Tony Blair rot in jail for the “terrorism” committed in Iraq by people under their orders would be great.

bigschnitz,

Well, by that established-powers created definition every single act of war meant to cower civilians or other states is terrorism unless in committed in one’s own homeland (this latter exception because governments can make sure it’s “lawful” where they are soverign, but their law does not extend outside their borders)

There are international laws, however unenforced, that so called terrorist states regularly violate.

Bombing of Dresden during WWII: terrorism

I think the intent was to target factories which are considered part of the military establishment, but probably.

What Israel is doing right now in Gaza and all pretty much every single action of Israel in Palestine, outside it’s UN approved borders: terrorism

Is that even in question? Obviously indiscriminat bombing of a civilian population to drive them to migrate as refugees is terrorism.

Almost every single United States military operation, cover and overt outside it’s own borders: terrorism

When the USA invaded Iraq everyone around me was calling the US a terrorist state and there were mass protests in my country, Australia, at the our governments choice to be complicit in that. I would say that western countries tend to use more targeted attacks so they don’t usually meet their own definition of terrorist, but the USA nuclear bombs example as an example of terrorism is far from the only case.

I guess when Australia. Soldier Ben Roberts-Smith was found to be guilty of specific war crimes in Afghanistan they didn’t use the blanket term “terrorism”, but the guy is clearly a terrorist despite being a white Westerner.

By your very own statement (unproven, I might add) that an organization that commits acts of terrorism per that definition is a “terrorist movement”, then the US is a “terrorist movement”, as is Israel and for example just about every nation that invaded Iraq (as there was no UN mandate, hence it wasn’t lawful and a lot of actions done there were definitelly “use of violence and intimidation” for the most definitelly “political” aim of changing the government there).

What do mean unproven? I’ve quoted the dictionary definition from Google. You’re welcome to define terrorism however you want, but the most widely used definition, per most English language dictionaries, is to the effect of the use of violence against civilians or other non combatants to further political or social change.

Interestingly enough by your definition what Nazi Germany did to the Jews inside its own borders was not terrorism, because it was “lawful” in Germany at the time.

What the Nazis did is why we now have the Geneva convention and international laws around human rights. While those laws may not have existed at the time, plenty of Germans were tried and found guilty of them afterwards.

Most of what follows you seem to be arguing on what I consider to be the mistaken belief that there is no such thing as international law.

Israel as it exists right now is a terrorist state. I’m not stating that meaning I, in any way, agree with those who are calling for the obliteration of the state of Israel, but prior to Oct 7 the authorities were clearly selectively enforcing laws that allowed for violence and other acts of terror against Palestinians, both by the state itself and by private citizens. They clearly have been acting in violation of international law for a long time.

Aceticon, (edited )

You never made a case about “terrorist movement” you only went after your own strawman, “terrorism” (as in, the action) - which I hadn’t disputed - and you did so by using a dictionary definition (not a legal one) of a word which is mainly propaganda, hence why per that definition it’s so easy to tag just about any violent action commited by those not in power as “terrorism” - pretty much all revolutions in history against oppressing dictatorships even if mainly peaceful are terrorism by that definition if at any one point “intimidation” was used.

As I pointed, that definition is so bad that Hamas’ actions in the 7th might not have been “terrorism” because it was not commited inside Israel’s UN recognized territory but rather in occupied territory, so it’s not Israel’s law that applies there but rather the law done by that very same Hamas, so their actions were not “unlawful”, hence per that definition were not terrorism.

After all this the point I originally made about “terrorist movement” remains untouched because you never actually provided an alternative definition for what makes something an “movement” about a certain activity.

If we’re going by dictionary definition then a movement is “a series of organized activities working toward an objective” so for Hamas to be a “terrorist movement” it’s objective as an organisation would have to be terror, which does not seem to be the case, but to be an “insurgency movement” its objective would have to be expelling an occupying power, which is most definitelly their objective.

This is the point I was making.

PS: by the way, this whole discussion did made me think properly about all this (so cheers for promoting it!) and I’m starting to think that per the dictionary definition there is no such thing as a “terrorist movement” simply because no group has terror itself as an objective, even though plenty use terror as means to their objective. Since “terrorist movement” is one of those expressions coined way back in the day by politicians justifying their own use of violence, it shouldn’t be surprising that in logic terms it’s bullshit.

bigschnitz,

Yeah I guess I instinctively defaulted to terrorism because, like you say, “terrorist movement” is a kind of nonsense combination of words

Gazumi,

Some say that Israel is a terrorist group, hiding behind brave words and the citizens of Israel, many of whom do not support the genocide in Gaza.

TheControlled,

Yeah maybe but Hamas is still a terrorist group.

theotherverion,

It is a terrorist group.

taanegl,

Correct. Hamas is an Iranian state actor and should be treated with respect, along with all the other predatory state actors in the area.

From the river to the sea though.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Israel gave Hamas money so you mean an israeli state actor

taanegl,

That too. Isn’t it fantastic how one para-military group has been supported by both the Israeli and Iranian states? It’s so great seeing Palestinian people getting played by a bunch of oligarchs so they can be a pawn in geo-political colonization and general fuckery. It’s so fun seeing children die so Netenyahu and the Ayatola can play chess.

Sometimes I think a couple of well placed nukes would save mother nature from the horrors of humanity.

pythonoob,

Did you drop this? /s

taanegl,

I expect people to get certain jokes, so no. I’m dumb like that.

pan_troglodytes,

riiiiiiiiight

SeaJ,

If your main target is purposely civilians, you are definitely a terrorist organization.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Indeed the ICJ should designate israel as a Terrorist organisation let’s hope they get to it soon

SeaJ,

The current government? I see no issue with that.

curiousaur,

And everyone who served in the army. Oh, they have mandatory service? Everyone over 18 then.

yesman,

Everyone over 18 then

The IDF has a military detention and trial system for Palestinians as young as 12.

Argonne,

Right after they do Russia and Iran

wildbus8979,

That’s fortunate because we know the main target on Oct 7th was military and police. we know from the list given by israel that even not accounting for the friendly fire (which is huge) about half of the total deaths are military/police. We know from witness testimony at the rave that they were confused as to where they landed and asked people the direction of the nearby military base. So yeah you’re right, just not the way you think you are.

youtu.be/BUtnJuzC_gc?t=2m4s

SeaJ,

Asks the people they kidnapped? You going to claim those are all military too?

wildbus8979,

Many are yes, how many I don’t know. But ultimately I don’t care, because I know better than to police the oppressed’s few means of resistance. And yet, what is for absolute certain is that Hamas’ military to civilians ratio is orders of magnitude better than the IDF. Yet only one these two groups has a right to violence under international law, and simple ethics.

Don’t pass go don’t collect 3 shekels. Get lost hasbara.

masquenox,

No. Hamas isn’t a terrorist group.

During the 90s here in South Africa we had a jolly good time watching the exact same type of neolib scum that had insisted on calling Nelson Mandela a “terrorist” in the decade before suddenly lining up to kiss his ass for a photo-op. It was hilarious.

The west hasn’t changed one bit.

MeanEYE,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

Of course not. They are child loving, flower gifting bunch of nice guys. It’s just that there’s this weird looking flower AK47 which resembles a weapon so media portrays them as evil doers.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Just how we beat the Nazis. With lovu ande peashooters.

PatFussy,

Hamas has been on terrorist lists since 1997. Not sure why anyone is trying to change their mind now.

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

The US terror list is not the UN terror list.

Contrary to popular brainwashing not everyone shares America’s opinion.

PatFussy,

What about the entire EU? Or Canada? Or most of South America? Are all of these places brainwashing?

Linkerbaan, (edited )
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Do they acknowledge israel is committing genocide?

PatFussy,

Is that the double standard you require for Hamas to be labeled a terrorist organization? In order to call Hamas a terror group, you have to acknowledge genocide in Gaza is this correct? In your world, can both be correct?

Linkerbaan,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    PatFussy,

    Not here to play your dumb goal post shifting games. I can say that Israel committed acts of genocide AND I can say Hamas is a terror organization. Can you do that?

    Linkerbaan, (edited )
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    No I can’t because the UN doesn’t recognize Hamas as a terror group but as a political movement.

    Every resistance group in the past has been labeled as Hamas has been labeled now. And when they came to a peace deal everyone turned around and said they were justified in their struggle.

    I won’t hide behind hypocrisy and take a safe moral stance only because of some downvotes. The correct moral position is already obvious. And with time more and more people are starting to turn around to it.

    Israel is committing Genocide and Hamas is not a terror organisation

    Argonne,

    Hamas is a terrorist organization. Fuck you

    jj4211,

    I would say it’s because people really want there to be a “good guy” in a conflict. Right now it’s abundantly clear that Israel is in the wrong in its response, but it feels damn weird to “side” with a terrorist organization. Having one evil answered with another is just… Too much…

    Linkerbaan,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    Don’t bother clicking the actual article half of it is quoting israeli governments and Zionist lobby groups calling Martin “Hamas”.

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