There is a “peace organization” here in Sweden, Svenska Freds, that are hard core pacifists. No matter what - pacifists. Their reasoning is like children. War is bad, everybody should be friends, the end. Reality should conform to this simple principle.
In the early days of the invasion, their loud public stance was that Sweden should not support Ukraine with military equipment. Ukraine was just as bad as Russia for defending themselves with weapons when they should use reason and diplomacy.
Then they got all weepy in the media when people called them useful idiots for Russia.
I love how you turn pacifism around to “help the Russians” basically making me the villain while you advocate the killing of innocents and the destruction of cities. What a fucking hateful shit.
Here, let me bring some light into your understanding of the matter.
Imagine, and I want you to really visualize this, a large man has a visible gun on his belt. He demands that you strip nude and give him everything you have. There is no path you can run towards, he’s blocking the only exit and, again, has a gun. It just so happens that you also have a gun, and unlike his, yours is already drawn. What do you do?
Oh look, it’s hateful people imagining these fake no-win situations to justify their bloodlust. Grow up. Life is more complicated than your manipulative little fantasies.
It’s not a “simple question”, it’s a manipulative question by a fucking violent sociopath describing an impossible, this-or-that situation that will never exist and I’m fucking calling you out on it.
Talk about having no intellectual honesty. Look, you’ve lost. Get over it. People like me – pacifists who want people to continue living, who want peace, no violence, no hatred – have won. You are a relic of a long-past age of hatred and bullshit. Evolve or be silent.
I advocate the defense of people and cities. You advocate their surrender. You would trade anything for peace, especially justice. You would rather have a negative peace than accept that the world is not as simple as you would like it to be, and there are some enemies who are simply not interested in negotiation. You are what we call a "useful idiot."
Where is the justice for the dead? Where? Where the fuck is the justice for the innocents who have had their lives turned upside down? The ones who would still be alive if aggression had not been the solution?
You are a hateful, war-mongering, inhuman monster.
Where is the justice for the dead? Where? Where the fuck is the justice for the innocents who have had their lives turned upside down? The ones who would still be alive if aggression had not been the solution?
Those are some very good questions to ask the aggressor, Russia.
What justice is there in rolling over and saying, "no, we don't have a right to self-determination in any way, please take anything you want, Russia!" If push came to shove you would be a collaborator, and aider and abetter of war crimes to save your own skin, and that cognitive dissonance makes you so uncomfortable that you put on this humanitarian act in order to maintain a moral high ground that does not exist. It is not virtuous to allow others to kill you, dominate you, and steal from you. It is monstrous to imply that Russia's right to delusions of empire trump Ukraine's right to determine their country's affairs, and even more monstrous to use the death of innocents as a shield for your craven delusions that everything would be fine if people just gave the naked aggressors everything they want.
Oh, you mean the war America escalated by taking sides in the second Sino-Japanese war and choking Japan to the point where they had to take a stance of aggression toward us to be able to get essential supplies by ship, and we decided to lie and paint Japan as an evil, aggressive, horrible enemy and nuke them twice even though they were ready to negotiate for peace both fucking times? That war?
Lie and paint japan as a an evil, aggressive, horrible enemy? If anything allied propaganda was below the mark regarding just how evil the Japanese were. Nanjing? Manilla? Shanghai? Unit 731?
The amount of brainwashing to tell the narrative of USA GOOD EVERYONE ELSE BAD has made speaking with you impossible. Break out of your fucking shitty, horrible programming and join the rest of the adults in a struggle to find peace in our time, or just be silent and let us do it.
Oh most enlightened one, ye who stands upon the highest of moral ground, please share with us your illuminated opinion of how the Ukraine should have responded? Or for that matter, any enemy who wishes to take your land and kill your people.
Clearly you are the most learned among us, and have solved the puzzle of how to overcome a violent enemy without resorting to violence, so please I beg of you oh sage one to teach us your great wisdom so that we may be as ethically correct as you.
EDIT
Aww I missed their rage response, I am guessing they had no better response than “let the violent party take whatever they want”? Yeah cause that’s a super great plan, and definitely doesn’t incentivize more violence.
So if your country was being invaded you’d just lie down and take it? Perhaps even say thank you? You’re naive to think that talking will magically solve things when you’re against an enemy who clearly doesn’t have the same moral standards as you. They’re attempting to take what they want with force, they’ve already demonstrated that they don’t care for niceties like negotiation.
Imagine trying to talk it out with a mugger. They don’t care what you want to talk about. They want your money.
Every downvote is a vote for death, hatred, and suffering of innocents
This makes you sound like those moronic Facebook posts that say things like “1 like = 1 prayer, ignore = you hate puppies”. It’s not a good look.
Would I rather be alive and in a position to negotiate my freedom than dead? Gee, what a hard que–oh wait.
Seriously, I don’t get this. I don’t understand how people have become so hateful and spiteful and blood-thirsty. It’s Fox News, isn’t it? Right-wing, jingoistic, hyper-patriotic, “I can’t understand the second amendment because I think only half of it applies” bullshit.
Go find a heart. Compassion. Love. Prayer does nothing. War kills. Love, compassion, understanding, patience, and peace is what moves the world.
Please go to Ukraine and test this routine on Russian soldiers, it will go really well for you, like that ad of Kendall Jenner solving racism with a Pepsi
No, it’s you who do not understand because your brain is wired with violence and hatred and is unable to see past any of that to any possibility of peace. You are a relic of an ancient time of hatred and bullshit and you need to either rewire your brain and evolve, or stay silent and let people who want peace on this fucking planet be the adults we are.
So the solution is that the one side that already has a bunch of guns, gets to kill as many people on the other side, and we must not help the other side defend themselves?
Always give the aggressor everything they want and let them kill as many civilians as they need to.
Sure.
temporarily get some of what they want while things are worked out
Some of what they want = to own all of Ukraine, and for Ukrainians to not exist as a culture, let alone a nation.
Putin is not rational, this is an ego war. I take it you were never bullied in school. You might not know what it’s like when someone’s main goal in life is to make yours hell. You can just lay on the ground and play dead, that won’t stop them from kicking you. There’s no talking your way out of it unless you yourself are at least as strong as the bully. This is what Russia is. A schoolyard bully. Any type of negotiated peace short of total capitulation is going to be nothing more than a way to catch Ukraine with its’ pants down and kill more Ukrainians and grab more territory. The only way Russia will stop killing innocent people is if they either run out of resources, or Putin himself gets deposed.
Revisionist warmonger history. Russia was ready to peacefully take over Ukrane/parts of Ukrane until Ukrane went all aggressive murder all Russians on them. Sure, again, yes, 100%, Russia isn’t in the right here. Let’s not think I’m on Russia’s side here. I AM NOT. AT ALL. But the fact that you are going full murder boner is proof that you don’t care about people’s lives and you are willing to fucking lie about it.
Nothing like revisionist history that ignores the fact that Ukraine was the first actual aggressor and Russia just wanted them to give over their land. Not for Russia here, they’re 100% in the wrong, but land isn’t worth fucktons of human lives unless you’re a war-mongering hateful gun-toting conservative shit like you.
There’s this codepink in u.s. thats like this organization too, except only think remarkable about them is when their website was flooded with signatures from trolls that said things like hating african americans, praising zelensky or putin AND hitler in same sentence and using putin’s credentials as if it were a regular signature.
This reminds me of that cunt Caitlin Johnstone saying the simple solution in Ukraine was detente. As if that is an option when you’re defending against the entire removal of your culture, history, heritage, and people.
Pacifism. Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me’. The idea that you can somehow remain aloof from and superior to the struggle, while living on food which British sailors have to risk their lives to bring you, is a bourgeois illusion bred of money and security. Mr Savage remarks that ‘according to this type of reasoning, a German or Japanese pacifist would be “objectively pro-British”.’ But of course he would be! That is why pacifist activities are not permitted in those countries (in both of them the penalty is, or can be, beheading) while both the Germans and the Japanese do all they can to encourage the spread of pacifism in British and American territories. The Germans even run a spurious ‘freedom’ station which serves out pacifist propaganda indistinguishable from that of the P.P.U. They would stimulate pacifism in Russia as well if they could, but in that case they have tougher babies to deal with. In so far as it takes effect at all, pacifist propaganda can only be effective against those countries where a certain amount of freedom of speech is still permitted; in other words it is helpful to totalitarianism.
Problem is every Putin policy is Nationalist. Every rhetoric he and his Government come out with is “Motherland!” and “for Russia!” People decrying “but there’s Nazis in Ukraine”… well yes. Deal with both obviously …but to say you cant deal with either (through aid, safe harbour, sanctions etc) is really just as bad.
“To remain silent and indifferent is the greatest sin of all.” - Elie Wiesel
A country that no longer exists, but a megalomaniac is trying to start a reunion tour. Thankfully they haven’t been as successful as they would like to be.
You obviously cannot use your brain, otherwise you wouldn’t say such a stupid thing, but yes. If they were fascist then we should use violence to make them go away. Tiny problem. NATO is not that and you are an idiot for saying such a thing with seriousness.
Thanks for the joke and letting me answer it seriously.
You know things have gone bad when you’re relying on a libertarian think tank literally founded by Charles Koch (as in, the Koch Brothers) as your source
Maybe a Lebanese source then. Maybe Venezuelan? Maybe a Marxist perspective? Oh wait, you want the neoliberalist to tell you when NATO is fascist. Good luck with your wait.
the European Parliament went so far as to blame both the USSR under Joseph Stalin, alongside Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler, as being jointly responsible for WW2
Uh…. Then he delivers a diatribe on how Stalin’s self-made famine was actually fantastic. Yes, we’ve heard all about that on Lemmy recently, thanks.
Yes, very nuanced and well reasoned “Marxist” perspective. Capitalist alliance having members in Eastern Europe: omg, so evil. Capitalist Russia controlling Eastern Europe: great, for some unexplained reason.
Ah yes, great point, so clearly Russia should ‘liberate’ them with tanks and missiles. NATO exists precisely to stop Russia from doing to member states what they are doing in Ukraine. Countries in E. Europe were not coerced or forced into joining NATO or the EU. Nobody has any interest in invading Russia, because it would be futile and entirely useless.
Why don’t you tell me what you think it is instead of “wrong”?
I didn’t say “NATO was started to…” yes, it was founded to stop the Soviets from expanding and as a pact of mutual defense. Same thing. Obviously the USSR doesn’t exist now so that wouldn’t continue to be a goal.
NATO should have dissolved as an organization after it’s goal of thwarting communism from the Soviet Union was met. Because it’s real goal is capitalist hegemony it continues.
I don’t see why they would do that. it’s basically just an alliance of the US and EU. Are they capitalists? Sure, so what. I don’t see that changing any time soon. At the same time, the usefulness of a mutual defense between the two continues. Russia’s demonstrating that right now. If not for NATO, who else would they be invading soon? Belarus? Poland? Estonia? Why would NATO choose to dissolve and allow that?
What’s the alternative you’re suggesting? What major countries who rival NATO are not capitalist? They should cancel NATO and let smaller countries be taken over by capitalist Russia because the EU is capitalist? “NATO member countries should change their economic system” isn’t the same as “NATO shouldn’t exist”.
Yes you are. And i will leave it to the other people that have already told you why to continue. The mods here will probably delete this comment because I haven’t been nice to you :(((
If NATO is supposed to be a defensive alliance, it should not operate outside of its own borders under any circumstances, yet it has done so multiple times in the past.
In theory it is an alliance of equals, but in practice it is an enforcer of the foreign policy of its most powerful member, the US. As with Russia in the USSR and the larger Warsaw Pact. If that wasn’t the case, the US would have no use for NATO and would just leave, which is what many European countries would want to avoid at all costs.
I am not in kindergarden anymore.
I don’t have the time to argue with childrens understandings of what defensive alliances are and should be.
Good night bobby
No, it just isn’t useful for any human on planet earth to entertain your “rusSiA beST cOuNtRYE usSR gOoD Yes nATo bAD theY ONlY us pUPpeT aNd Do wAR And kIl anD maEk mE poOR :(”-thoughts or even discuss anything with you.
You are discussing like ben shapiro or incel podcast hosts but without being entertaining. Good night bobby.
The way modern weapons work, defending from within your own borders just isn’t practical anymore. A simple example is those rockets constantly used for strikes in the middle east - often deployable from outside established borders.
The only true safeguard against those strikes is having a constant awareness of what’s going on - for instance, someone deploying thousands of soldiers right to the edge of their border without actually crossing.
Ironically, the whole point of Leninism was that Russia wasn’t wealthy enough to be communist, and thus had to have state capitalism watched by a “vanguard party” (who are in theory supposed to keep the capital in check), so not even the Russians believed they did communism.
Wtf pugjesus… i though you were based… and now you are pulling this type of bullshit that the dumbass partisans idiots pull to shit on people that have a non extreme point of view that ends up not allining with theirs?
Cmon m8 we can do better than this, if anybody is arguing seriously that the invaders are as bad as the invaded, they are either dumb, tankies (mostly both), CCP/Russia shills, trolls or litteral children on a “comrade” face, (and therefore neither of these should be taken seriously) not centrist and neither people that are looking for the truth of the things argue that the victim here is the villian, and the ones that do are not doing it on good fate and are not looking for a middle point.
And the worst part is that there isnt really a middle point in that situation, the only one i could think of is that war is bad and colonialism is bad (cuz thats whats looks to me russia is trying to do here to Ukcraine) and even then those point at the fact that the main instigator here (Russia) is the bad guy.
Its like that other dumb post that was looking to shit on non extreme viewpoints trying to shit on centrism putting it between genocide and not genocide, like wtf one of those is a ridiculusly extreme point that cant have a middle ground, so the main point of that dumb post was to justify lashing against those that doesnt allign to either extreme stance by grouping them with the people they dont like, and with partisan shills it thends to be the other political party, even if one cant really form part of that party since one can be not an US citicen.
they are either dumb, tankies (mostly both), CCP/Russia shills, trolls or litteral children on a “comrade” face,
Unfortunately this is a non trivial group, and they need to be reminded often that they are idiots. I’ve seen far too many “left wing” people take the position that Ukraine should just roll over and that it’s all someone else except for Russia’s fault.
They need to be made aware that they are taking a pro Russian imperialism position, and asked how they would feel if it was instead the US invading the Philippines because they wanted closer ties to China, or something along those lines.
War is undesirable, but ironically it’s necessary for having a positive peace. If people give into aggressive demands all the time because they’ll otherwise wage war, you still end up with peace, but it’s a negative peace. It’s servitude.
Russia can unilaterally end this war, and the world needs to keep putting pressure on them to do so.
The thing is that they do not take those reminders and go “Yeah i was wrong, im gonna change my believes” when they see this shit, they go “YEEE mOrE wEsTeRN pRouPAgAnDa hEil MeOW, whiNniE puu iS rASceisT nnhhhhiiiiieeeeeeeee (starts playing the USSR anthem)”.
And besides my critiscism was against the fact that centrism doesnt really looks to find a middle point between war and not war, it looks to find a naunced take on it or the one thats colser to the truth, and offc the more naunced take would be no war, but in this meme its kinda perversed into partisian thinking like the US culture war bs does, that if you not agree with every single thing my side says then you are a tankie, and i dont whana be a tankie, they are not based, but while i agree mostly with what your side says, somethimes they can say or do some things that i dont like and i whant to be able to disagree with them.
Now i dont really have any good example for this situation since Russia is clearly the bad guy in that one and the one thats comiting more war crimes if trying to colonise another country isnt enough of a war crime, the only thing i could think of is the videos of russian soldiers being killed by drones where in the comments are full of assholes rallying and yelling horrible things about the dead russian guy, and praiseing its dead. I mean, i like to watch fucked up videos like most people but like… rallying like that is just straight up wrong, the poor guy was probably some russian kid that got forcibly drafted into the army because he was caught smoking weed or something, it reminds me a lot of the 1984 book where they had like a “Hate hour” or something like that where they put a mob in front of a giant telescreen and put images of a enemy of the government (dont remember his name but he was pretty much Throtchsky) and rallied people against it and started shouting like an angry mob and as soon as it stoped everyone stoped.
Man, I'm not here saying "If you don't support The People's Party you are One Of Them". I'm not trying to say that everyone who doesn't support Fully Automated Gay Luxury Space Communism is a Reactionary Dog, or that there are no moderate positions which are valid. I'm criticizing the self-professed centrists and moderates who argue that 'both sides' are guilty in the war and for that reason, we shouldn't be involved. You can say they're dumb, and you might be right, but they exist in non-negligible numbers.
Bipartisan is working with both sides, I think you mean partisan, taking a side. Confused me for a moment.
More people should get used to the idea that being “partisan”, taking a side, is not in itself a horrible thing.
Not to compare all current political situations, but to just demonstrate a conflict with “sides”: Side A is a baby. They want to eat their lollipop. Side B is an escaped criminal who wants to drown the baby in acid. I will be partisan and say that I sincerely hope for all people to firmly take Side A, and offer not even half an allowance to Side B.
America has won some of these culture wars before, in positive ways; if you’ll remember what sort of things we supported/fought against about a hundred years ago.
Im gonna copy and modify a little of a comment i already made to answer yah m8:
The thing is that taking a centrist POV doesnt really looks to find a middle point between one extreme and the other, it looks to find a naunced take on it or the one thats colser to the truth, and offc the more naunced take would be no war (in the case of this meme but in the baby case it would be no killing baby), but in this meme its kinda perversed into partisian thinking like the US culture war bs does, that if you not agree with every single thing my side says then you are a tankie, and i dont whana be a tankie, they are not based, but while i agree mostly with what your side says, somethimes they can say or do some things that i dont like and i whant to be able to disagree with them.
Now i dont really have any good example for the war situation since Russia is clearly the bad guy in that one and the one thats comiting more war crimes if trying to colonise another country isnt enough of a war crime, the only thing i could think of is the videos of russian soldiers being killed by drones where in the comments are full of assholes rallying and yelling horrible things about the dead russian guy, and praiseing its dead. I mean, i like to watch fucked up videos like most people but like… rallying like that is just straight up wrong, the poor guy was probably some russian kid that got forcibly drafted into the army because he was caught smoking weed or something, it reminds me a lot of the 1984 book where they had like a “Hate hour” or something like that where they put a mob in front of a giant telescreen and put images of a enemy of the government (dont remember his name but he was pretty much Throtchsky) and rallied people against it and started shouting like an angry mob and as soon as it stoped everyone stoped.
And an example with the baby part, i might be stretching things to far, but being so young it really shouldnt be eating candy all day and i think it should be fed less candy and more healty food. Again im really steetching this but im trying to present an example about it.
I don’t blame Ukraine for defending their home, but I do blame the US for pulling strings everywhere and causing tensions that lead to war. It’s something that has happened again and again, and no one really cares because it’s usually not a problem of the West.
All considered it is Russia’s fault, but not only Russia’s. We’d be talking about a different history if the US weren’t so expansionist and threatening.
Yeah, remember when the US forced Russia to invade Crimea and prop up separatist republics in eastern Ukraine? It's a shame we're so set on causing tensions. /s
I am a centrist, when I say both sides are bad, it doesn’t mean both sides are bad in every single conflict but that both sides have their issues. For example, Ukraine has a problem with Nazism, but that doesn’t mean they should be invaded by Russia.
The reason why this strawman meme like OP posted, gains traction is because most centrists don’t really bother wasting time and effort arguing online.
You are not a centrist. You are on russias side if you repeat russian propaganda.
No, not both sides are bad.
Russia attacked. That means russia is the bad. Ukraine is defending against a country that swore to not invade. Ukraine is good.
There is nothing more to this.
If you claim otherwise you are on the side of russia.
Being a centrist does not mean being a fucking idiot and saying absolutely idiotic dumb things.
No you said "I am a centrist, when I say both sides are bad, it doesn’t mean both sides are bad in every single conflict but that both sides have their issues. For example, Ukraine has a problem with Nazism, but that doesn’t mean they should be invaded by Russia.
The reason why this strawman meme like OP posted, gains traction is because most centrists don’t really bother wasting time and effort arguing online. ".
As a centrist you would have stated that you despise the person in the middle of the meme if anything and that’s it. As a centrist you would hate to be associated with a whataboutism spewing shitposter or worse a russian propaganda bot. You are not. While everyone here is on the same page about the Russia invasion you brought up irrelevant shit that has nothing to do with the russian invasion war that is going on right now. Why? Probably because you think playing devil’s advocate means being a centrist.
As a centrist: Russia is obviously wrong and nobody needed your affirmation for this and it doesnt matte if Ukraine had a Nazism Problem, because now the World has a Russia Problem.
I don’t care about “unjust criticism”. I believe Russia is totally wrong in this conflict. But that doesn’t mean the world should go full Canada and start celebrating actual SS Nazi soldiers in Parliament.
And I don’t need to prove whether I’m a centrist or not, the best answer I can give you is that both tankies and bigots disagree heavily with my views, I believe in seperation of economy from government (actual center right economic policy) while also believing that everyone should have the freedom to express themselves and right to basic needs, and freedom to immigrate (center/center left).
Your citation just proved my point. But since the mods here already removed my comments because i wasnt nice enough to you i will leave it at that. Have a life.
There’s a good side, and there’s a bad side. One side is abducting and killing/raping everybody they see, while trying to expand their country back into soviet times. The other side is trying to survive. You calling them both bad is like saying “My neighbour and hitler are both bad, hitler killed jews, and my neighbour called me a bad name.”
So? Just because Russia is invading Ukraine doesn’t mean Ukraine’s actions OUTSIDE of the conflict are excused. Russia is wrong in invading Ukraine. But Ukraine has problems of its own too. If you don’t understand something as simple as that, then I’d strongly suggest you to not be as confident in your thinking.
He is being spoken to in exactly the way he deserves being spoken to. Being too big of a pussy to handle it is not something to be extolled as virtuous.
He has no choice. He’s on a public internet forum making dumbass statements where everybody can see and react to them. And in the real world, when you say stupid shit, people are going to react honestly.
Just be thankful I bothered to break it down for him instead of roasting him outright.
He has no choice. He’s on a public internet forum making dumbass statements where everybody can see and react to them.
Just be thankful I bothered to break it down for him instead of roasting him outright.
The point that you’re missing is if you’re actually trying to change his mind, or just berate him publicly.
If its beration, then I guess carry on, though that makes for horrible reading by the rest of us, though it probably makes you feel very good for yourself.
And in the real world, when you say stupid shit, people are going to react honestly.
Because you would say the exact same thing to him to his face if you were both in a party in a room full of people, right?
Sounds like you forgot to read the line where you were told to shut the fuck up.
Motte-and-baileying yourself will get you nowhere. We’re not easily manipulated useless idiots like you and the other fascists-in-sheep’s-clothing self-proclaimed centrists who enable genocide just because you need to feel needed by someone.
No one’s falling for it. Take your shit propaganda elsewhere.
Yes it does you absolute buffoon. If you are being attacked as part of an invasion that means you are automatically and without question on the good side if youre defending yourself.
If you argue in any other way you deserve to have your opinions and arguments laughed at online.
Russia has only strengthened the position of the Nazis. A society fighting a desperate defensive war can’t afford to exclude any help. If Nazis want to go fight the Russians, go let them. Either way, regardless of who dies, you win. And if the Nazis survive until the end of the war, we can thank them for their service with slightly comfier pillows in their jail cells.
And if the Nazis survive until the end of the war, we can thank them for their service with slightly comfier pillows in their jail cells.
Except this thinking is literally how half of ethnic conflicts in early 20th century arose. The problem with this is that if Nazis survive, they are going to do so by holding positions of power.
what are you talking about? the far FAR overwhelming amount of Ethnic conflicts in the 20th century onwards were literally due to the collapse of artificial socio-economic structures created by then defunct empires.
You seem to be exceptionally confused. Go back and read what I said. At no point did I say that was what happened. It was my personal opinion that if Nazis help you fight a defensive war, their reward should be more comfy pillows in their jail cells. No amnesty, no forgiveness.
I’m flattered that you went into all that effort to dunk on me, but in the future don’t do all of that work until you make sure you understand the comment correctly.
I see what you mean. Regardless, I’m glad we agree on the actual point once we got through the misunderstanding.
A domestic enemy helping you defend your country is still a domestic enemy, and you can’t just forgive their wrongs, even if it feels a bit exploitative and unfair to give them nothing.
Ironically, your number one ally in a defensive existential war is the fascists and extremists, because they’re going to be quite pissed at the prospect of being conquered. Allowing them to fight is already reward enough for them.
Ukraine has a problem with Nazism, but that doesn’t mean they should be invaded by Russia.
This tells me that you both think that Putin invaded Ukraine because of the nazism (he didn’t) and that you shouldn’t invade a country for being full of nazis (you absolutely should) Congratulations, the average liberal once again managed to support the worst of both sides.
this is just called pendantry. I’ve heard this a million times, but it doesn’t change a damned thing about how millions of people use the word. at that point it’s an alternate definition.
I wasn’t the one being confused/upset about people using the word “Liberal” correctly, Omega_Haxors used it very much correctly, and you got upset the rest of the world doesn’t use American definitions.
now you are unironically getting upset at me for “pretending I don’t know what Americans mean”, How entitled do you have to be, to be upset the rest of the world isn’t using your definition?
Centrism isn’t a political position. It’s an attitude. It means you have a tendency to view dichotomies as false, and further that the truth, as you understand it, exists somewhere between two presented (false) dichotomies.
Centrism means different things depending on political context. It could mean you’re a socialist, a capitalist, a fascist, a bolshevik. It doesn’t present a political view in and of itself, and as such it’s usually an incredibly unprincipled stance.
Do you look at class through a socialist lens or a fascist one? As in, do you believe the classes are opposed in their interests or aligned?
Do you support the state’s monopoly on violence and subsequent declaration of private property rights?
Do you view allowing the interests of capital to steer the global economy via institutions like the IMF as a grave injustice or the invisible hand of the market doing what’s best for humanity?
The answer to these questions, if you look into things, will often align in a coherent way. It’s unlikely, for example, that you’ll take a socialist lens on classes in viewing them as conflicted while also supporting the declaration of property rights in direct opposition to the interests of the worker.
If you’re in the U.S and you’re a self-described centrist, you’re likely a capitalist who’s simply undecided on some social issues. If you were brought up religious but went to secular public school, that would cause some dissonance in analyzing social issues. However, this inability to form a coherent view shouldn’t be the main feature of your self-described political stance.
It’s better to just say you haven’t done enough research to come to any reasonable political position. It’s much better to accept that humans don’t know everything and know where your own knowledge falls short.
As someone who thought for a while they were centrist, this represents how I came to see it better than I could have put it into words.
Centrism is a desire to compromise between the two available options. There is no compromising with fascism. They might pretend to compromise, but they are really just solidifying their position for their next push. A compromise means they accomplish half of their goals and thus will have an easier time getting the rest of them than they would have before the compromise. Especially if their concessions all had nothing to do with real power, like allowing gay marriage. If they can offer the decriminalization of abortion to secure more political power, they can just consolidate that and use it to ban abortion again for everyone down the line. Their primary goal total power, everything else is secondary to that.
I see the Democrats as largely representing the status quo economically and politically with a healthy dose of social of progressivism thrown in. That social progressivism is important, but the economic and political stuff is what really needs to change to fix things. The Republicans, on the other hand, are regressive economically, politically, and socially, which was the case even before their recent descent into fascism. A compromise between those two won’t do anything good, so centrism is out.
it doesn’t mean both sides are bad in every single conflict
But you’re implying it. You’re implying far greater equivalence exists than there is.
If English isn’t your native language, then let me help you.
both sides are bad
Is wrong. That is a final judgement, and it is wrong
both sides have faults
Is correct, and what you mean. It still isn’t good, but is closer to what you mean.
Also, on the topic of left, right, centrist and moderates (etc), you should be aware of the concept of the Overton Window. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window) I am not going to support the entirety of the concept, but the basic relevance is that “if the general trend of the times is for people to be more right wing, then what you thought was central becomes what was right wing in the past”. This is a fault / problem with describing an idiology not on its own, but only in relation to others.
Language is used for communicating ideas and thoughts, and if you don’t use it “correctly”, in the manner that other people use it, then you will be misunderstood.
They don't care. It's meant to muddy the waters, confuse people who only pay attention to world affairs on the surface level. Repeat it, and people remember it. Doesn't matter who responds to you. Doesn't matter what they say to refute it. All that matters is getting the material out there, making it pop, making it catchy. Then all you have to do is rely on spotty human memory to do the rest.
It's even better when you get third parties passing along your propaganda too, and all the implications it drags with it.
This conversation has run its course. You keep on being a useful idiot, barging in to places where the actual ongoing genocide is being discussed and trying to drag up 80 year old grudges for a whataboutism. The Kremlin appreciates your unintentional service.
Did I ever hide it? What did you think, that I was against genocide because of some abstract concept, not because I’ve personally met WW2 survivors… and criminals?
It might shock you, but some of us have had first hand experience with the scum, not just populist posturing.
Hey everyone, come point and laugh at this tanky using the only rhetoric tankies have. This dude is unironically pro Russia kidnapping children from Ukraine and most likely also pro Chinese genocide. What a piece of shit.
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