2008, I didn’t know back then that he literally had a hand in almost all the country’s problems and several that directly impacted me or people I know.
It’s an easy problem to solve, just run a different guy.
I mean, if you don’t have any moral qualms about voting for a politician like Biden you’d have to have your eyes cast farther out than trump to justify say casting ballot for PSL or even just leaving the presidential field blank.
If though you genuinely believe trump is a real imminent danger to democracy and whatever other material and immaterial things you hold dear, why are you worried about how people vote?
You saw what happened last time he was declared the loser of an election. Just this week he said he’d do it again.
No amount of voting is gonna restore people’s faith in the electoral system and you’re getting another j6 if he’s not declared the winner. If you think it’s gonna be a fizzle like in 2021 then building networks of resilience with the people around you is much more important than voting. They might not take over anything and get repelled by the capitol police, but there will be unrest and confusion and it’s more important that you have built strong relationships and preparedness with the people around you for that confusing and frightening time. Heck, you might be in a place where the electric boogaloo try to take over infrastructure and government at local or state level, then it’s even more important.
If you think it’s more than a fizzle, that we really could see a coup of the us government, what do you care how people voted? It’s not like some magic margin will convince that cohort that they were wrong and Biden is actually the guy and trump lost fair and square. The fix is in. No one’s gonna believe vote tallies. If you really think we’re staring down the barrel of a honest to goodness takeover of the federal government, don’t even waste time chastising me for not voting for genocide Joe.
You need to be counting your supplies, making sure your potable water is getting rotated, cleaning your guns and most importantly, helping your neighbors and people around you.
Now if you think that all sounds like crazy talk, and America isn’t actually on the brink of fascism, maybe you would think it better to deny the democrats your vote until they actually run a candidate you can stand on a platform you like.
I don’t think it matters. The terrain we fight on is determined by the material circumstances we’re under. Neither Biden or trump will change that (I actually think trump might try to but even with project 2025 there’s just too much institutional inertia to overcome).
If you think it’s gonna be a fizzle like in 2021 then building networks of resilience with the people around you is much more important than voting.
Why are you pretending these are mutually exclusive?
Hell, none of what you said is mutually exclusive with voting for Biden.
We should be prepared for all eventualities. You can take a few hours out of one day counting your bullets to go cast a vote that might save democracy.
I will never vote for Biden. You dont have to either.
If you really think democracy is at risk then voting for Biden doesn’t matter. Do you think trump will accept being declared the loser? He already said he wouldn’t. Do you think the second sixth will be more successful than the first?
Every President I’ve ever voted for has lost in my state. So if you want me to vote for Joe Biden, that’s fine. But when he loses in my state, its on your head.
I was a lot different sixteen years ago. It was more than the slogans too, before everything got watered down the rhetoric was what I had heard in the 90s but “we’re actually gonna do it this time”. Especially coming out of bush 2.
No matter how powerfully you make the case for not voting, I’m going to cast ballot for PSL at the presidential level this year.
You can too. No ones gonna come after you for it. You’ll be voting against trump and showing the democrats that they gotta get their shit together and run better candidates with platforms that aren’t abhorrent.
I could. Wouldn’t even effect the outcome in my state. Down ballot is what I show up for.
Still voting Biden because ill put my vote where it actually has a chance of mattering. Third party is a scam. Third party needs grass roots, any other supposed means is a scam.
Well then I couldn’t possibly be comparing ice cream to genocide because the supposition is the belief that voting will have an effect on receiving ice cream.
I was relating how individual wants aren’t negotiated by voting using ice cream as an example. Also voting only in a presidential election is the bare minimum to participating in American democracy. To credit yourself with absolute moral authority you would have to exhaust yourself more than just doing the bare minimum.
Of course not! And it’s completely absurd to say that it is!
For any reasonable, decent person, opposition to genocide is not merely a want, but an unshakable moral foundation! Only someone truly depraved could possibly see opposition to genocide as a mere “want,” akin to a passing desire to eat ice cream!
Vote how ya like, but consider using the extra free time to campaign for electoral reform in your state. How we vote is controlled at the state level, so we don’t need to wait for federal reform to do something about First Past The Post voting.
That way there is a little bit bigger chance a 3rd party more to your liking would be created. Nothing is for certain, but this is our one life so we gotta take the shot.
Ah yes, policies that would have been considered downright progressive 70 years ago are apparently a dictatorship today.
Say what you will about American policies in the 50s, yes they were racist, yes they were sexist, and many other things. But I don’t believe it is really arguable that the US was a dictatorship at that time. Less democratic than it is currently, sure. Not a dictatorship.
Trump’s lawyer is currently arguing with the Supreme Court that a president could legally assassinate a political rival; and the majority of the court seems to be leaning toward agreeing. They (the GOP) seems to be aiming for instituting a Russia-like authoritarian government.
We need to protect our democracy, as the ability to freely choose between policies is fundamental to the perpetuation of a liberal society.
On that note, you have exactly one viable choice to make and it will - at absolute best - kick the can down the road for two years. At that point, you will once again be told we need to protect democracy.
Yeah, it’s a negative framing, but it is true as well. By being held to ransom, our options have effectively been reduced to one. That’s why you gotta do the work locally and advocate the need to break apart this system before it breaks us all.
Maybe if you did some collective action between events instead of waiting two years for the polls to open and then complaining that FPTP is still giving you only two choices.
Love this comment! As i commented elsewhere, get outside and make ur local politicians uncomfortable until they pass Rqnked Choice. Plenty of state level measures going around right now, no waiting necessary!
That would be crazy if I was doing that regularly.
I’ll say, five minutes at the Houston Food Bank feels infinitely more productive than an hour waiting for access to the one functional voting machine in my district
What is the problem with Biden? As a non-American, I only notice how regularly Republicans block everything from the Democrats no matter how big the damage is and somehow the population embarrasses the Democrats for it or specifically biden… i.e. the same action against biden as from republicans or trump and that from the beginning. Why was Biden elected in the first place if both Republicans and Democrats use this to destroy democracy?
On the subject of genocide… Republicans and Democrats would apparently also be happier if the genocide took place against Israel, then increasingly against Ukraine and against the West. So that democracy in the West is destroyed further and further, especially by the fragmentation of their own shitty population.
You have no understanding… Republicans and Democrats both support Israel. You’re clearly very ignorant and I have no idea why you’re being upvoted for this nonsense ahh comment
When I talk about Republicans and Democrats, I am talking about the population and not just the politicians who represent them. Within the population there are protests etc. that further contribute to destabilization from both sides.
Well your first post you called me instantly ignorant now comparing with trump… while you ignoring what I wrote first “As a non-American, I only notice” while you ignoring stuff like the campus protest or the whole destabilization etc. But yea call me ignorant…
Yes, you admitted to your ignorance and kept yapping.
Trump literally said both sides caused deaths at Charlottesville even though it was the white supremacists who were the sole cause of violence. You are ignorant.
You are ignorant even on the 2nd repetition to ignore the fact that I reflect the point of view as a non-American (I never said I was familiar with the political system itself, but I can give my view of what my impression of America is.) . Even better you just absolve Republicans and Democrats of racism which apparently doesn’t exist in your opinion… awesome you just solved the racism problem you genius there is simply no racism in Republicans and Democrats… so simple damn.
I get the feeling most of the critics to this post don’t actually live in the US. When it’s you, your family and your friends in danger of being shipped off to the death camps, no amount of philosophical masturbation matters in comparison.
I’m trans and live in the US, I just also have an actual spine.
The way people talk about Palestinians today is the way they’ll talk about trans people tomorrow. Based on the logic of lesser-evilism, if the next election comes down to a democrat who wants to genocide trans people, and a republican who wants to genocide trans people and some other group(s), then you’ll deploy the exact same arguments about supporting “lesser genocide.” No one is safe once we accept this logic, at that point it’s all about trying to shift to target onto another group’s back to protect yourself.
Solidarity isn’t just about doing the right thing, it’s a practical survival strategy. It’s about different groups banding together and recognizing that an attack on one is an attack on all, and that no amount of genocide towards any group is acceptable.
In the long run, if minority groups are being picked off one by one, and Democrats keep following Republicans to the right, then… it’s inevitable that we’ll be targeted sooner or later!
No one who supports genocide for political expediency will ever have my back! How could it be politically advantageous to stick their neck out for such a small minority? There’s only one way: if different minorities band together and treat an attack on one as an attack on all!
Being Complicit with the Genocide of Transfolks IS NOT having Zero Tolerance for Genocide
Furthermore, Its a hell of alot harder for minorities to band together when they are actively being genocided. Voting for the lesser of two evils allows for that Solidarity to form and expand. Voting will never directly bring about Socialism in America, but voting can give the working class time for Class Conciousness to form that will inevitably lead to that outcome.
Voting IS NOT a purity test, it is a dirty tool that must be used until other tools can be put in place to allow the workers to seize the means of production.
Get a clue, buddy. “I’m trans and Biden bad, China good.” So you do support genocide.
The weird part is you think having Donald win will turn the US into communism instead of a capitalist authoritarian hellscape. Or, I suppose you think that will topple America so that “Socialism with Chinese characteristics” can expand across the world?
Protip, genius: the “Chinese characteristics” are capitalism. They still have billionaires.
How many Native Americans had The USA killed? Because they are still regulated to Reservations and have no real Representation in Congress to this day.
I live in the US, born and raised. I am queer and a racial minority as well as very politically active. I and everyone I know will be refusing to vote for Biden. He has made nothing meaningfully better since Trump and in fact has made things worse. Regardless of that, I can’t in good conscience vote for someone aiding a genocide. I think everyone who is voting for Biden in the US must be very privileged and unaware or otherwise removed from the effects of the severe decline in living standards under his administration. But even if that weren’t true… he’s aiding a literal mass-child-murder genocide, and by voting for him, I’d feel like I was giving my approval for such a heinous, despicable thing. I wish the democrats had put forward a decent human being that I could vote for, but they didn’t, and I can’t. The US is sliding towards fascism and if you think that won’t keep happening just because the blue team puts their geriatric genocidal guy at the top, I think you’re painfully naive.
No way! Surely the fella who kicked off his term with a “Muslim ban” would have saved all the Palestinians! It’s not like he wants Israel to “finish the job” or anything like that. Surely the fella who tweeted nuclear threats against Iran would have been the best choice to have in office when they fired their rockets.
I think they genuinely want Trump and for him cause generational suffering (judge appointments) which in their mind will eventually lead to reforms decades down the road. They are perfectly willing to sacrifice people now for that chance later.
This cosplayer doesn’t want no fascism, they want full fascism. They want another “Muslim ban” and they want Israel to “finish the job.”
They also want Repubs to pass more laws like banning anything mentioning LGBT from schools. Force teachers who mention anything of the sort to register as sex offenders.
Biden bros will claim to care about Palestine, and the USs other campaigns of genocidal violence overseas, them they’ll completely give away how dishonest they are by saying shit like this
Comfortable middle class liberals in the imperial core like you are the most insulated against fascist violence. You’re literally whining that people who have already been the target of American fascism - which you have erstwhile been ok with - aren’t sympathetic when you start crying “but now it might happen to meeeeee”
Biden’s lack of action on Israel’s brutal campaign in Palestine is not something I support. And if the public could pressure him to cutting aid and assistance to Israel until they cease and start providing actual care for those displaced and not tent cities I’d be the first in line to support that action.
But allowing the other guy who actually establish actual concentration camps on the border to illegally detain and abuse refugees that fled hundreds of miles for a chance at a better and honest life is totally unacceptable. All the terrible and worst thing Biden had done in office, and there has definitely been a few, amount to nothing that trump did in a typical week. And that was before he really pursued ideas of being a full authoritarian dictator out to wipe his ass with the constitution and make sure he ruled for life. Trump got more people killed during Covid than Israel’s attempt at genocide. So no, its not disingenuous to say Trunp is dangerous for everybody if he somehow gets back into office and instead of a prison cell where he belongs.
Also moving heaven and earth to make sure Israel has the weapons it needs, and actively deploying the USA military to prevent anyone trying to stop them.
Spent all night last night watching student protestors get their heads bashed in and catching facefuls of bear mace from modern day brown shirts, then come here and get told to vote so that doesn’t happen. Bizarro world.
Liberals are terrified of Trump because they think he’ll do to them what they support doing to others. He won’t actually, of course, but I wish he would.
Bro where the fuck were you when unmarked federal agents were going around Portland attacking protestors and arresting people with out charges for protesting npr.org/…/federal-officers-use-unmarked-vehicles-…
You seem sure about that, yet he admits he sent them, despite federal agencies like having no precedent for being called in over protests, especially protests which at the time were peaceful and non destructive when the order to randomly arrest citizens in the area came out.
Oh don’t worry, I’m not pretending anything; I’m well aware that you liberals consider me an enemy to be destroyed, even if it means embracing fascists, so I’m not going to pretend our differences are reconcilable. I’m just here to let you know that I’m happy to see you all freaking out as you realize that the machine you built to crush us is going to crush you as well.
Doesn’t matter. Stopping America continuing into fascism would mean a mass socialist movement, which doesn’t exist after liberals worked to systematically destroy it.
My glorious leader is everything in his power to perpetrate a genocide in Palestine, while also continuing to crush any left opposition and empowering fascism.
Yeah, like… “Biden has been passively or second hand participating in the genocide of people halfway across the world! Biden bad!”
Also “Trump’s pulling out of NATO and saying that Putin should have Ukraine is totally fair!”
And then “Yeah, all the bad stuff Trump will do to actual Americans and others living on the US soil, protected by the US constitution, is perfectly fine especially if he does it to you because you disagree with me!”
If a murderer was in the midst of killing people, and someone comes up and hands them more guns and ammunition… That person would obviously be an accomplice! There’s nothing “passive” about it!
But there’s an even bigger problem with this testimony: if Biden is only “passively” involved in genocide… Then why is he protecting Netanyahu from the ICC?
Every time one of these posts come up there’s a bunch of people who are always like but the republicans are way worse!
And it just seems like it’s a bunch of white people who have never actually been discriminated against and now they’re worried because these policies will finally affect them.
Whereas when black and brown people have been talking about how both parties have fucked us over for decades upon decades, we are told to shut up.
When white nationalists walk down streets with torches and actually kill people, there’s like 3 arrests. When an angry mob tries to overthrow the government, and livestream themselves doing it, and are all caught on camera, we have the slowest reaction of all time, and their jail terms for literal insurrection are just a couple years. When BLM did even more peaceful protests, they’re arrested and smeared.
When students protest genocide, they’re arrested and smeared. But when you send in police or a bunch of pro Israel goons attacks students peacefully sitting on some grass, silence. And that’s the democrats. Sorry, but one side being marginally less genocidal than the other, but still allowing all these corporations who pollute the world and kill people indiscriminately, is not that much better a choice.
Biden has seemingly lost the vote of the youth and of black and brown people in America. Those are THE two groups that put him in the presidency. White people actually voted pretty much for trump. 60% or so, white women even more so.
So people scared about students and brown and black people not voting for biden might want to just stop for a second and wonder why they keep asking us to save them instead of going and actually talking to racist grandpa and grandma in the back and getting them to vote for their own interests.
I’ve voted in every election that I’ve been able to - local, state, and national. It has done fuck all for me while a couple already rich people got ten times richer. Why should I keep voting for that?
Maybe it’s time the democrats realized that they could put plank from ed edd and eddy up there and it would get more votes than biden. It’s not our fault they fucked Bernie in 2016. Biden promised to be a one term president when he ran originally. So he can’t be trusted. He doesn’t care that 34000 brown men, women, and children are being killed by him. So why on earth would I care if he loses? It’s absurd. If white people wouldn’t vote for a fascist cheetoh you wouldn’t have this issue at all.
If people had a moral spine they’d realize that genocide is evil no matter where it is.
I just want people to be more politically active so that they learn from experience. For some reason certain people get angry when I do, even if I do it nicely, even if I say please
So my doubts have been confirmed. Glad you fell on the side of voting anyways.
If you think I’m being ridiculous, I could flip through my history and find a dozen folks who would unironically holdfast to the letter of your original comment.
Look at the other comments on this thread, the incredible hostility my innocuous comment got. So that road goes both ways. If I reacted to the way I got jumped on here, I’d probably set up camp in the not-voting bloc too.
So is your vote contingent on whether people in this thread demonstrate that they have/will “do more than just vote”? If they don’t, will you abstain from voting?
Yeah apparently people took it that way. I was being cheeky. I’m politically active, not as much as some but i volunteer when i can, I vote in elections but I also help out with campaigns. I guess I thought that it would be interpreted as “be politically active beyond voting” but people seemed to take it as “I’m not gonna vote.”
I literally didn’t expect to get this much, um, attention. It was just a throwaway comment that I wrote semi annoyed at this meme. I think people are frustrated with the system and instead of engaging with that there seems to be an overwhelming urge to make sure they do the thing that keeps the same people in power… On the other hand it seems like people who are passionate about voting feel attacked by the no-vote crowd. Its getting nowhere.
The Uncommitted campaign was really successful and sent a clear message to national leadership. But I don’t think they understand the message, or maybe they don’t want to. But maybe we can learn a lesson from it, that there are a lot of people who want an alternative. Idk like I said it was just a throwaway comment.
There’s a serious problem with discourse. Also I came from a server notorious for that kind of behavior, or at least those opinions, but I got banned as a “reactionary” for defending someone who I do political work with that is a Trotskyist. People were bending over backwards to jump all over me, call me names, misinterpret what I was saying – kind of like people were doing here a little while ago. From my perspective I don’t see a big difference between the people who try to bully you into not voting, and the people who try to bully me into voting. I seem to get bullied either way.
I have a lot of different heated discussions about politics all the time in my organizing so maybe I just have a thicker skin. I’m still not really used to it. But perhaps you’re right I should use more care, but I also think I should be able to voice a harmless opinion and not get shunted into one of two camps. We see this “campism” a lot now, more than ever before. I believe that I can work with progressive liberals, who make up the majority of Lemmy servers, as well as other tendencies of leftists because I think we all basically have the same enemies. But instead we just make enemies of each other? It works a little too well for the benefit of the wrong people.
I’m saying that if you mother fuckers didn’t have to be dragged kicking and screaming to fill a piece of paper out every four years, we’d have never gotten this far with.
Forget Hillary, Bernie could have won the primary if y’all spent the energy on voting that y’all bring to whining endlessly about how your privilege blinds you to how much it changes for people who need it the most.
Going to rallies is good, but I’m actually extremely skeptical of online “activism”. I actually don’t have a benchmark for what " counts as more," but I want people to have actual experience doing political work, which looks different for everyone. I find the most value in the discussions that come from regular working people, educating themselves and each other.
Why do you want me to be a hypocrite? Do you actually believe that nothing exists beyond the bare minimum? But I remember feeling this deep dark cynicism about politics at certain times in my life too. So hopefully you are on a road that leads you away from cynical otherizing and you discover the communities of volunteers that hopefully exist very close to you, so you are able to have some of these experiences.
At which point you might look back on these moments of cynicism with disappointment, as I look back on my mine. Its okay though, the system is supposed to instill these feelings of frustration and alienation into people, so it isn’t really your fault. But in order to build a movement we need people doing work they are passionate about and I hope you find work like that and join soon.
Get hooked up with Election Science to switch your elections to approval. Pick-all-you-like voting really helps make people feel like they actually got to voice their opinion at the ballot box.
Nice of you to assume people who vote don’t do anything else to improve things.
How will you look back on whatever you’re doing right now if you, and people like you, don’t vote and lead to Trump winning? All that work for nothing because you refused to do the one thing that could help everything else you’re trying to do.
I didn’t say that, where did I say anything like that? Why are you trying to villainize me? I want other people to get involve as badly as you want me to vote, is the point I’m trying to make. Save your shame and fear. Try talking to me like a person and not, I don’t know, whatever demon you’re trying to make me out to be
That’s an incredibly dim interpretation. I just don’t like being constantly lectured to about voting. It is completely valid to criticize this crappy system and yeah I think its okay to suggest that people do a little more than just vote every 2-4 years.
It seems like people aren’t getting as upset at the idea that I might not vote, as they are at the suggestion that there is some alternative to it, that democracy can be more than voting for one of two deeply corrupt candidates who uphold a deeply corrupt system. I will vote, because its easy.
You have no right to hold this over people’s heads, and even implying a tit for tat arrangement is suggesting that anyone who doesn’t “do more than just vote” isn’t doing their part. Some of us have demanding jobs, kids, family that requires care, or other demands that do not allow time for political activity beyond voting which has already been made extremely difficult in some areas.
In short: get fucked. Go vote. Don’t try to create some kind of one-upsmanship game that predicates your civic responsibility on someone else’s volunteered time.
This is extremely hostile. I was being cheeky. I want people to get more involved as much as other people want me to vote, that’s the point I’m trying to make. I’ll vote, and I don’t need you to try and scare me or shame me about it. Maybe ask yourself why this makes you so upset that you have to swear at a stranger over it. Seems like there’s something else going on that deserves your attention more than my dumb comment
It’s intended to be hostile. Maybe you were “being cheeky” (I doubt it) but it doesn’t read that way in a text format and a lot of people making those same statements are not. What makes me so upset about this situation is people like yourself not taking it seriously. We are, without hyperbole, looking at an honest to God threat to democracy and you are making if/then statements about your willingness to vote. Trying to shame people into being more politically active is the wrong way to do it.
I am tired of people treating this like it’s a game, and I am tired of people being flippant about voting for the lesser of two evils.
What makes you think being intentionally hostile toward someone would persuade them to vote? Wouldn’t it make more sense to try and educate? I said I was being cheeky, but even now you can’t resist calling me a liar. I really wish you wouldn’t, you know, I’m pretty easy to get along with, I tolerate other peoples opinions even when they disagree with me. I vote and I do much more than that.
If anyone is trying to shame, it is this group who descended on me within a 5 minute period with a flurry of down votes and open hostility. I’m genuinely sorry you’re upset about the state of the world, I’m upset too. so why should we try to upset each other more? It doesn’t make sense.
FYI that isn’t me down voting you. I don’t use down votes.
You have no right to hold this over people’s heads, and even implying that someone who does “more than just vote” isn’t doing their part. Some of us have demanding jobs, kids, family that requires care, or other demands that do not allow time for voting instead of attending the occasional local better-timed rally which has already been made extremely difficult in some areas.
In short: get fucked. Go do activism. Don’t try to create some kind of one-upsmanship game that predicates your civic responsibility on someone else’s volunteered time.
Yes, actually, everyone urging for pragmatism at the polls should be willing to take steps other than just voting.
What do you suggest? I’m for this. What are good steps? I want to get from where we are to a voting system that allows me to choose a different candidate without wasting my ballot.
Well, for example, a friend of mine is a big proponent of star voting. He joined DSA, which is an org I’m a member of and how we met, promoted it within the chapter and started holding meetings that actually attract a lot of people inside and outside the group. He networks with other activists around the country who have been successful in implementing voting reforms in their state and municipalities, and Now he is trying to build his own local campaign around Star voting. Its slow, steady political work and it is necessary. Build campaigns and get in front of people, do politics. Not everyone is gonna side with you but if it is a good idea, enough people will.
And in the temporary absence or inability to do that, educating yourself and others is vitally important work. But groups like DSA, WFP, and various local progressive campaigns have a low barrier to entry and participation. People learn so much so quickly when we get involved. Its not always easy, and for example, I don’t really even enjoy politics all that much, not like some people who seem to love to debate and get a charge out of doing political work. But I’ve met amazing people and learned so much and orgs are desperate for volunteers. My primary focus is movement building and education, and also I seem to have a knack for building bridges. So if that electoral voting work is what interests you, just go for it, reach out to people and most importantly be patient!
If genocide is an inevitability, that means that the US is a fascist state which must be overthrown by any means necessary, and any farcical “elections” between two people who support genocide are a joke that should not be legitimized through participation!
phoenix-objection-1phoenix-objection-2 The fact that you’re defending genocide as an inevitability is, in fact, a perfect demonstration of the harm caused by this very participation! The reason that you’ve taken such an abhorrent position is because you’ve centered the US political system as an immovable object. But the real immovable object should be… STOPPING GENOCIDE!
If your political project cannot draw a hard line against endorsing genocide, then it is worthless!
Ok that’s cool and all, so if voting doesn’t matter can you please vote for the option that results in fewer dead children? It’s like 1 day, and then you can go back to working on your glorious revolution the rest of the time.
The explanation for why I won’t has already been presented! Let’s think back to something that was said earlier…
If genocide is an inevitability, that means that the US is a fascist state which must be overthrown by any means necessary, and any farcical “elections” between two people who support genocide are a joke that should not be legitimized through participation!
phoenix-objection-1phoenix-objection-2 The fact that you’re defending genocide as an inevitability is, in fact, a perfect demonstration of the harm caused by this very participation! The reason that you’ve taken such an abhorrent position is because you’ve centered the US political system as an immovable object. But the real immovable object should be… STOPPING GENOCIDE!
If your political project cannot draw a hard line against endorsing genocide, then it is worthless!
Cool cool cool so do you mind doing me a solid and - just humoring me here - casting a ballot for “fewer dead innocents and continuation of Democracy” in this farcical system? I mean sure it’s all a joke and pointless, and yeah let’s get on with the business of destroying the system and whatnot. But like for just a few hours, since it doesn’t matter anyway, can’t hurt to throw a ballot in, right?
Surely the other 365 days and 20 hours of breaking down the system more than offsets this tiny, minor, performative participation in it?
(What can I do? No matter what I try, they’re just ignoring and refusing to engage with anything I say! It’s like I’m not even in this conversation!) phoenix-sweat
Uhh, let’s try this again. Centering the US political system as an immovable object that you must participate in means defending morally abhorrent positions, while also legitimizing it. So no, I will not be voting for anyone who supports genocide, because it’s wrong to do so.
Then it’s complacency. Your protest is not saying you don’t want genocide. Your protest is saying you’re fine with whatever level of genocide we get. Driving transgender Americans to suicide, if not outright hunting them for sport, would just be an added bonus.
As a trans person, don’t hide behind me to defend your support of genocide!
Under no conceivable circumstance does anyone have a moral responsibility to support genocide. Even if a killer had me at gunpoint, I would sooner die than become an accomplice to mass murder!
phoenix-objection-1phoenix-objection-2 I reject your framing of the issue! There comes a point where “lesser evilism” no longer applies. If the election were between Mussolini and Hitler, would you tell me that I have a moral responsibility to vote Mussolini? Would you tell me that refusing to legitimize such an election is “complacency?” This is the logical conclusion of your reasoning!
If you need anything more than “the other candidate is a fascist running openly on a platform of doing fascism” to do everything you can to vote and get others out to the polls too, you may turn your ally badge in and sit at the table with all the other fascists.
Formal proposal that all the grammable marches and rallies post security that check for proof of having voted to get let in, sounds like a club bouncer, but these people are coming hard with “bachelorette party at a gay club” energy anyways.
One of two people are going to win. You can have Joe Biden, or you can gamble that Donald “Israel should finish the job” Trump, who kicked off 2017 with an unconstitutional “Muslim ban,” will do a complete 180 this time.
Protip: it seems to be the lefties who dislike genocide and Trumpanzees have oppositional defiant disorder, so it certainly will not be getting better under Donald.
It’s fucking weird to pretend you dislike genocide while agitating for an openly racist authoritarian insurrectionist to take office. Like were you asleep for the 20th Century portion of history class or have the middle schools not gotten to that part yet?
Mostly agree, but you be saying #2 like scare tactics isn’t the standard practice for mostly all politicians in every party these days (not even just in the USA, but all around the globe). Trying to make that a trait of a specific party feels kinda disingenuous to me.
Dems got stuck on fear-based politics in 2015 and never recovered.
This is of course secondary to their primary strategy of fear-based fundraising. They’re a fundraising organization first and foremost. They forgot how to be actual political representatives long before 2015.
You’re right it’s not specific to them. I’m talking about Dems because the thread is about liberals feeling obligated to vote Dem to stop Trump.
I might argue that using fear to gain/maintain power is a thing that all powerful people/institutions do. It might be a feature of all hierarchical power structures. Anyway, it’s gross every time
rather than doing things that would excite you to vote Blue
You mean like doubling the overtime exemption salary, reinstituting net neutrality, forcing airlines to refund cancelled flights and banning non-compete agreements in nearly all cases? Because those all happened like, last week. Not to mention larger policies like student loan forgiveness, abortion, etc. that are supported nearly exclusively by Democrats.
That shit doesn’t get passed when the dems feel safe. Criticising Biden (including the announcement that you wouldn’t vote for him) is how democracy is supposed to work.
Trust me: If I had the choice, I would gladly never hear a single word about US elections, ever again.
Unfortunately, I not only have to worry about your so-called country on stolen land slipping down into fascism, but you guys actively enable Israel bombing 40000 palestinians and counting.
I’m curious how you’re gonna argue that the inhabitants of central Europe are the direct decendants of settler colonizers. Probably gonna have to attack the catholic curch, then.
That shit doesn’t get passed when the dems feel safe.
The process to properly implement these reforms done via government agencies takes years of public comments (tens of thousands of them, and you have to respond to every one!), review, etc. if you don’t want their effects to just be immediately repealed like many of Trump’s were.
You’re allowed to criticize Biden, and I am allowed to defend him. Nobody’s censoring you.
Taking the asinine position of completely ignoring the realities of our political and electoral system and thinking that complaining misanthropically on the Internet is, somehow, a more effective means of bringing about change…that is not, in my view, how democracy is supposed to work (not saying this is what you’re doing, just that there’s a lot of that in this thread).
With Gaza, I think this is completely accurate (and even then there's a disconnect between the huge level of outrage and the tiny little concessions to humanity that the Democrats have enacted as a result under that pressure).
With most things, it's not. You can't possibly tell me that sweeping climate change legislation, creating a small amount of support in the tiny minority of people in the US who are aware enough of what's going on to care, but incurring the anger of the incredibly powerful fossil fuel lobby, was done because of cold political calculus. I think it's actually borne out of genuine concern (which makes sense -- these politicians' kids and grandkids have to live on the planet in the future too, and they don't have the Republican luxury of living in a pure fantasy-world where they think somehow that it won't impact them.)
Don’t forget the rejoining the Paris climate Agreement, proposal to lower overdraft fees, and the marijuana rescheduling efforts. But yeah literally nothing good from this administration /s
Good for you for being informed enough to know about all those things. They’re all good things. But they don’t move my needle. They’re much too small. Probably nothing could compare to a genocide but these don’t come anywhere near close.
Straight-up student loan forgiveness could’ve been huge. We bailout big companies all the time but Biden fumbled student loan forgiveness by going small. National abortion access would be great but there’s no way they’ll get that passed.
If you need anything more than “the other candidate is a fascist running openly on a platform of doing fascism” to do everything you can to vote and get others out to the polls too, you may turn your ally badge in and sit at the table with all the other fascists.
Formal proposal that all the grammable marches and rallies post security that check for proof of having voted to get let in, sounds like a club bouncer, but these people are coming hard with “bachelorette party at a gay club” energy anyways.
You assume that voting will make a difference but it won’t. Not only because most of us don’t live in swing states but also, because voting doesn’t change American politics. Biden showed us that. Hell, Obama showed us, America is still gonna be it’s ugly self no matter who’s in the oval office.
I refuse to keep pretending that a blue guy in charge is meaningfully better. They just talk nicer and give the people here a couple more things.
I want everyone to demand what they actually want, not settle for the guys who seem better than those other douchebags.
Out of curiosity, let’s say someone wants to make the best possible decision for Palestinians. Meaning using their vote to produce the best possible outcome for Palestinians.
Who should they be voting for? How would it impact the situation? Why would that be the best? What is the risk assessment? In other words, how likely is successful, how good is success and how damaging is failure?
It will make no material difference who you vote for. You cannot say “trump will be worse” when people are being firebombed in Rafah right now and the guy in power is doing nothing to stop it, and in fact actively blocking attempts to make it stop. You’ve got student protests being smeared as antisemitic and being violently broken up by police and zionists. From where I’m standing, it really really seems that my 2020 “harm reduction” vote backfired hard and really just gave cover for all of this horrible shit to happen anyways.
So you believe that voting for trump would have caused a better result? Because otherwise how did it backfire? If it makes no material difference?
If you don’t think voting trump would have been better, who should people have voted for? I don’t want to repeat my question but now I am curious about your answers to both last and next election.
These people don’t have answers to this question because they’re not interested in answers. They just want to feel smug and superior to everyone. Literally nothing would be good enough for them
It is fine that you feel that way but I would like to know their thoughts. If they are right, they will be able to argue their position. If they are just e.g. smug, then they will avoid giving answers and at some point, reflection might kick in and they might actually try to argue with themselves and find the answers that we are all looking for. If they are just smug, that is. I don’t know but maybe they have the answers
This is so much more than just a race issue, its also an LGBTQ and neurodivergence issue, while I may not like Biden, Trump and his crew have both said things and acted in ways that attack basically anyone that isn’t in the in group they deem as worthwhile, republicans have also been pushing forward increasingly hostile anti-trans, anti-abortion laws, and Trump as president would bolster their ability to harm vulnerable groups even more
I really hate Biden’s unquestioning support of Israel but holy fuck under Trump some of my friends might actually die, and others will lose their rights to be themselves!
Lets also not forget Trump and his fans pushing for things that could very well spell the actual end of democracy in the US.
Edit: I didn’t mean to subtract from the race issue, that’s also a big part of it, I simply mean to say that Trump is a massive broad spectrum threat to multiple vulnerable groups across the US
Also edited because apparently this isn’t readily apparent to some people: under Trump, the genocide of Palestinians will continue, I am very very much against this, the “holy fuck” line is not expressing that I think the genocide of Palestinians is secondary, but is expressing exasperation at the people who constantly insist that the only way to protest is to not vote not seeing the problem with Trump getting into power
While I’m at it, pretty much whatever the results of the election are, shit will probably hit the fan, I urge everyone to learn first aid, a good start is www.stopthebleed.org
No, you fuck off with that you selfish lib. I hope Trump treats you with the same lack of consideration you give to foreigners who aren’t “your friends”.
You are a lib, and I’m glad that under trump you might be subject to the same treatment that you have supported against others.
You misunderstand me; I’m not trying to convince you of anything, I know that’s impossible. I just want you to know that, after liberals have done everything in their power to successfully destroy any hope of stopping American fascism, I can at least take some solace in watching you freak out as you realize that the machine you’ve built won’t spare you.
Do you think a political party that actively and willfully prepares an opponent for the current elected head of state that belongs to their party could survive for any length of time?
Of course, it’s worse than that. They clearly want Harris 2028.
I can’t stand my party running a tough on crime prosecutor. Harris is an awful pick for high office and her unremarkable term as VP speaks volumes about how many policy decisions she genuinely has strong feelings about. She’s milquetoast, uninspiring, and would likely cost us another election.
Fuck off with assuming that everyone who disagrees with you does so simply because of gender or race.
Competitive primaries are a feature of any organization democratic enough (in the philosophical sense, not the “Democratic Party” sense). As long as you don’t actively fight for the leadership of the Democratic Party, they are going to continue screwing you and ignore any political demand that isn’t timid enough. Just my two cents as an European.
Because who you can vote for is controlled by wealthy people and corporations that lobby the dominant parties, because the only way to amass that much support to run a campaign is through the Democrats or Republicans. You can’t vote for who you want, you must always pick the lesser of two evils.
America has never really had proper democracy at the federal level if you can’t vote third party, realistically.
so people can vote for the candidate that best represents them, with no spoiler effect because their vote is still counted against the republicans. Democrats believe in democracy right?
Given that both parties are now facing 3rd (4th?) party challenges, it might actually be in their interest to pass RCV. In the short term, it would reduce the spoiler effect, even if has a long term risk of undermining the duopoly.
It has to be passed at the state level, or via Constitutional convention (ie, the ultimate “let’s completely change the structure of government” nuclear option).
Electoral reform has to happen at the state level, and it’s most likely to happen in extreme Democrat strongholds. So yes, if enough people vote Democrat, eventually electoral reform.
Trust me, Republicans are not interested in electoral reform, except maybe to outlaw elections.
We can do this on the state level! Many states currently have measures establishing ranked choice voting that all of us would do well to pressure our state officials to pass. Id love to see protesters camping out in front of state congresspeoples houses with signs about their local measure. No need to wait until after the election!
But yes thatd be excellent after November, as well
Let's take all that "You can't POSSIBLY vote for GENOCIDE-adjacent person even if the alternative is LITERALLY A HUNDRED TIMES WORSE INCLUDING LOTS MORE GENOCIDE" energy
And apply it to "You can't POSSIBLY sit around typing on the internet while the world is falling apart, let's get involved in direct activism to make the US a better place instead of hoping that voting is enough which it definitely isn't"
While also, yes, voting for "not the end of the world"
Hey, Trump was already president for four years, and didn’t do this despite the exact same scaremongering back then. His actions in office were practically identical to Biden’s now.
I would like to stop voting for people who beat me with hammers, personally. I don’t think voting for the guy beating me with a hammer is going to get him to stop beating me with a hammer.
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