What happens in November is up to Biden – it will not be the fault of the protest voter if Trump is elected. The questions remain: does the Democratic party fear Trump as much as we do? And does it value its voters enough to shift away from an approach to the onslaught in Gaza that a majority of Democratic voters are against?
But not the people who chose someone supporting genocidal actions instead of the people demanding better.
It’s this simple, if all of y’all who spend your time trying to convince those of us who don’t want to support sending Israel all the weaponry they want, while defending them against the consequences of their own actions, while using our money to do so, and having Israel use $13b a year of our money to do so, would instead work with us, we could actually make a change:
And if at the end of the day that causes us to lose, it means that America is full of people who support this and they should get their way.
At least we find out where we really stand.
You guys spend all day trying to drag us to the side of “ Okay with sending bombs to kill more children.”, maybe you could drag people to the side of “Let’s not send more bombs to kill kids:”
I know which side I am staying on, and if we get outvoted, such is democracy.
People demanding better is not a side, and thus cannot win. The let’s not bomb kids side has zero power. Your choice is between bombing kids and bombing more kids. Enabling the bombing more kids side means your fake morals outweigh the sloppy real-world political situation that actually exists.
Your house is on fire. You are standing equidistant from a full petrol can and a bucket of water, and you’re deciding not to act because neither is the perfect solution.
Would it be the most American fucking thing to do, to stand up for what is right instead of easy, to protect those who need it most, to take the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free, and to stand shield for them? Yes
Fuck Nationalism in all its evilness, instead let’s be what we said we would be and start fucking actually working towards it.
Let’s live up to that, instead of aiming for mediocrity.
Not if y’all would just work with us!!! All we are asking is that you stand up and say “This is too far”, if he actually changed we could talk about keeping him around, right now we could be preparing his replacement in case he doesn’t.
If he does good enough then we still have him, if not he says I’m out and then we push the new one.
Let’s be real, most people are idiots who will vote whatever name has a D next to it
Apparently not, world would be a better place if they did.
The primary was your chance to put up a better candidate. You didn’t. You don’t have the numbers to beat Biden in the primary, but you do have the numbers to give us Trump.
Leftists are a small percentage of Democrats. You don’t have the numbers to sway the moderates. But you do have the numbers to give Trump a win. Are you okay with that outcome?
If the case is that more people are OK with supporting him and his genocidal supporting actions than are against them, then we deserve whatever the fuck we get.
In the short term, your position is justifiable. But in the long term, it’s anti-democratic. The reasoning you’ve provided here has been used for many elections in the past and can be used forever into the future. But if we’re forced to choose between two bad parties, and there’s never a chance of a third party accomplishing anything good, then nobody will ever represent us.
And if we’re stuck in a non-democracy forever, then it makes sense for people to pursue other more radical solutions. Is that what you want? It’s the natural implication of your message.
Your desire to support the two-party system above all else is what leads to alienation, on the right and on the left. It’s you who is pushing the country towards a grand revolution, not me.
The two party system is, it doesn’t need my support and your abstaining from participation will not harm it. The two party system will chug merrily along until Republicans end democracy.
It’s only pointless if you don’t care who wins. Voting won’t change the two party system, at least not directly and not any time soon. It will change who wins this November, and that’s a very important thing.
it will not be the fault of the protest voter if Trump is elected. The questions remain: does the Democratic party fear Trump as much as we do?
If you fear him, why would you not assist in preventing his rise?
If you give a shit about Palestine, why would you not support the better candidate for them? You think Trump will do anything to make this situation better?
The logical fallacy at play here is so glaring I can’t believe these journalists are willing to put their name to it.
You’re out to sea if you think it would be any better under Trump. It would be the same. Palestine is fucked, but we don’t have to let Dems get away with genocide with zero consequences.
You’re deluded if you think Trump would be worse for Palestine. It would be the same. Palestine is fucked, but we don’t have to let the Dems get away with genocide with zero consequences.
They’re being leveled now, soooo, what really changes? Tbh I’m not even convinced biden will make it stop in his second term, it’ll be back to business as usual.
Fair enough, but I think we’re borderline splitting hairs.
A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.
The word can be used in mental health contexts, but it’s in common usage as a synonym for “profoundly mistaken.” I can see the argument for calling it ableist, but it’s tenuous.
Hello! I was curious, was this post going to be restored and the actual reported uncivil comment removed? From what I’m seeing, this reported comment is still up and active.
If we’re talking countries that are being attacked without cause, should we talk about how Trump doesn’t want to support Ukraine’s defense? You literally only care about one issue, don’t you? This whole election is riding on one point in a thousand possible issues to consider.
Biden somewhat dances around the idea of helping Palestinians, while Trump avoids referring to them as people. Both are terrible by any metric, but one is miles ahead.
If genocide costs the Dems the election, they will be forced to reevaluate their relationship with Israel, and they will think twice before doing something else similarly morally outrageous in the future. We need the Democratic Party to stand for human decency or this country is irredeemable because the Republicans certainly won’t. We must discipline the party, and if it doesn’t learn the lesson, it needs to be destroyed and replaced.
When a government outspends every other military in the world by a factor of 3, it’s crucial that it have a conscience. Dissent voters are that conscience.
I’m just tryna vote for the lesser, by far, of two evils. It’s a fucking binary system, you can stomp your feet all you want and still get a genocide and possibly much worse, or you can at least preserve hope for a better future.
Hope for whom? A better future for whom? If personal selfishness outweighs the value of humanity, then we’ve already lost, and the outcome of the election is irrelevant.
It’s entirely possible that there are multiple points of view concerning this conflict and the upcoming election. Please, look at my post history, it might be inciteful.
Lesser of two evils works when we’re talking about blocking universal healthcare or police reform. When you use that bullshit to justify pulling the lever for genocide, you just don’t care that much about genocide.
You’re standing in a room with two levers. If you pull the left one, five people die. If you pull the right one, ten people die. If you don’t pull one, it’s random, either five or ten people die.
So if you choose not to pull, and ten people die, would you feel guilty for the five additional people? You could have prevented their deaths.
Ooh, I love thought experiments! You’re in an auditorium. There are three stages. On one stage, a man is guilotining one child every ten minutes. He cries into his handkerchief. On another stage, a man is gleefully guilotining one child every ten minutes and periodically kicking a dog. Both men get loud applause from different sides of the auditorium. On the third stage, almost completely unnoticed by the crowd, Jill Stein juggles bowling pins while tossing candy to kids. A vote will be taken to see who stays on stage.
The train is barreling down a track with five people tied to the rails. It crushes them. You hear the screams and watch the blood spurt and then dribble. Ahead are another group of five people on the rails. You can let the train continue on its murderous path, throw a switch that will shift it onto a different track but cause another train to run over the people, or you can go call 911 because the people are going to be crushed no matter what.
And when you use that justification to enable someone who’s going to increase support of that genocide what does that make you? Sure sounds like you’re supporting more genocide than a Biden voter is.
You’re not wrong, but it beats the GOP’s playbook, and it’ll buy us some time to do the actual work of building a viable third party that might have a chance after 20 years of constant support from local elections on up.
Not voting sends no message other than you’re fine with how things are so you can’t be bothered. Threatening a comfy 2-party system with a solid alternative will make them sweat.
Which is exactly why you shouldn’t be just tuning in every 4 years. Local elections, primaries, etc. People only pay attention every 4 years. That’s part of the reason why we’re here.
Sounds like you’re perfectly capable of understanding how participation is beneficial. Maybe you could advocate more people participate and the resulting benefits vs cynical bullshit designed to turn people off entirely?
@juicy : that’s a slippery slope moving the goal posts ad hom begging the question false equivalency fallacy.
I love when people start throwing in debate bro terms at random without expanding. It tells everything you need to know that you’re talking to a 12 year old.
Oh suck rocks. There’s one party that does try to pass legislation that helps people, that is better for the environment, better allocations of spending priorities, and generally aren’t fucking cartoon villains.
And it ain’t the Republicans.
Being mad that things weren’t done the way we Think They Should Be™ and dismissing the realization that geopolitics is an extremely complex system is childish. Throwing temper tantrums, threatening to take your toys and go home because you didn’t get your way is childish.
There are many factions to appease in the US electorate, particularly on the left. And while I personally feel like Israel should have been cut off decades ago which may have saved hundreds of thousands of lives, there are a lot more who feel differently. Am I going to hold that against the group that aligns with the majority of my aspirations even if they are stymied by christofacists at every turn?FUCK NO.
It’s like people forgot how many Americans died during the height of the pandemic because T**** is a fucking idiot.
Anyone who is even remotely near the crosshairs of the Christofascists needs to pull their head out of their ass and vote Democrat this election.
The Republicunts don’t care if you think “both sides are bad” if you’re LGBTQ+, atheist, non-Christian, think abortion should be freely available, etc.
Ideals and principles don’t stop bullets or beatings.
Same but in the mean time I’m going to continue to donate and help push for progressives and those who keep fighting to get rid of the bullshit first past the post voting system and electoral college bullshit.
Voting Biden in gives us time to take all this energy we’re mustering up and using it to promote broader, more significant changes. We don’t stop at the election and instead use the next four years to push toward a better tomorrow.
Too many people are stopping at Trump v. Biden. Too many more are stopping at Them v “The System”.
Change takes time. When you vote for Biden, you vote to reset the clock, and then it’s time for all of us to get to work.
Can you explain how you expect to push for a better tomorrow after Biden is re-elected?
The reason I am reluctant to vote for Biden is that he is supporting genocide. If Biden continues to give away large quantities of child-exploding bombs, and he is still rewarded with reelection, then what leverage will the anti-genocide movement have left?
It seems like if Biden can ignore the anti-genocide movement and still win, then we can expect Biden to keep ignoring for 4 more years.
It has everything to do with your question. Biden has already proven he is willing to roll over on many issues. Biden has gotten a lot done these last four years, far more than most of us expected. Meanwhile, and I am NOT downplaying the severity of the genocide, people like you are using that in exactly the same way you accuse people like me of using Trump. Thing is your reluctance to help Biden get into office, and acknowledgement of the likely atrocities Trump would attempt, does you no favors. You can’t see past your own anger to the bigger picture, and it’s a damn shame. Because where Biden buys us time to continue coming together and push for change, Trump will attempt to lock us, and the very many minorities, LGPTQ+ communities, and any person not white and certainly anyone who stands against him, possibly and quite literally behind bars. He is so damned bad that the ENTIRE WORLD was pushing back against his Presidency and are terrified of him winning again. Except Russia.
Either we step the fuck up and stop being bitches and work together for a change over the next few years, or all this shit, every single part of it, will occur again in 2028. Including, as happens nearly every god damn fucking time, a serious situation that splits our attention and our support while the Right looks on and smirks. Every. Time. And we keep falling for it because we care.
Not just Gaza. You’re stuck. Broader change. Biden is already showing he is willing to make changes and roll over on many issues. So we do what has always worked: We stand as a united voice. We come together to vote in more progressive local and State representatives while also collectively looking Biden in the eye and saying what we want.
None of this “If you won’t then I won’t.” bullshit. Literally one issue at a time.
The reason I’m angry is because this is actually incredibly simple. We live in an age where we can organize so god. damned. easily. Yet we keep finding ourselves at each other’s throats. Gaza IS a situation that is causing us to split. Yet not reelecting Biden is the wrong way to go right now because we don’t have a reasonable alternative. Not this time. This time it is truly binary.
So take that energy and carry it past the election and into further elections and further actions. Elevate our voice. We can still make that difference, though I feel we are slowly running out of time courtesy of the Republican party’s actions, and our own party’s inability to come to consensus. Both inside and outside the Chamber. Say what you will about Republicans: When it comes time to act, they often do so single-mindedly, even if it hurts them too.
The Gaza liberation movement is collectively looking Biden in the eye and saying what we want. We are standing with a united voice. You should join us instead of creating all this needless division and conflict.
Then I implore you: Push the movement to change course once the situation in Gaza is taken care of. Don’t let it dissolve. Restructure to focus on other issues here at home. That’s literally all I have sought for years. To build a movement in the U.S. that seeks to push for positive change through a collective, unified, voice. One where everybody on the same side comes on board. Where we do not turn others away out of spite or malice and instead teach patience to change minds.
After Gaza. After we get Biden in. Just continue that energy and don’t break apart in apathy and individual discourse once again.
Gaza getting “taken care of” means them getting wiped out to Biden and most democrats. He had made it abundantly clear he will not budge on this issue, there is nothing that can stop the flow of weapons into Israel, and that he is straight up ignoring the protestors because “disorder isn’t the answer” (besides the disorder Israel is generating in Gaza ofc). What is your solution to this? Just ignore it and fall in line? Biden will never unaffix his lips from bibi’s asshole, so what are we supposed to do other than accept the genocide and accept Biden helping the IDF wipe Gaza off the map? How about you pressure biden to stop committing genocide instead of telling people with empathy to shut up and take it?
I expect Trump to continue being a boogeyman so people like you can keep saying this instead of working for any real change that makes people’s lives better. ‘Just push Biden left’ turned into ‘Well you have no other choice’ real quick.
Where did I say that? Putins using Ukrainian Nazis as his boogeyman, do you think that implies Nazis aren’t harmful too? Bibi is using Hamas as his, same question.
Tell me: What do you expect democrats to do when they can just point to the next election and claim that democrats are owed votes for not being the other guy? Do you honestly think democrats will listen to voters? They’re already not listening when the vote matters most.
I wish the democrats would make the four years matter. Somehow obama made little difference in eight years while trump drove us to the edge of armageddon in only four. So far biden doesn’t inspire much confidence.
The Right tends to come together against something. The rest of us banter and point fingers at one another. Bluntly speaking, I’m disappointed with the majority of people who aren’t on the right. We quite literally need to shut up, stop arguing constantly, and work together, while collectively standing in voice and action.
Good luck. The Left has been made up of everyone who couldn’t form their own parties because they lacked the resources, and so the Democratic Party became the “Big Tent” Party. And so, the Left has become beset by decades of infighting and a mountain of conflicting interests. Getting everyone to unite is hard. If a Democratic candidate at any level takes a stance that one or more factions disagree with, on any issue, it breaks the coalition.
Exactly. If Trump wins, he will outright BAN the Democratic Party, at worst. We will all either be Republicans, or we will be prisoners. And if that happens, the only group with the means to oppose him and the GOP Fascists is gone. And yes, the DNC absolutely has the means. They have all the tools they need. Now, I will admit that they lack the will to use those tools, but if Trump wins they’ll never get the chance to use them.
Honest question, has speaking respectfully and calmly helped a single Palestinian person? It’s not like the US was listening until the uncommitted votes and the college protests.
Which specific real world protestors are acting as unhinged as this person was? From what I have seen, this behavior is exclusively among online communists, not actual pro-palestine protestors.
Why do you assume I’m defending them? All I’m saying is you’re wrong too, nothing about talking nice got us anywhere, and you must know this implicitly because you refuse to answer my questions with anything but your own detracting questions. Reread my first comment, and try answering it instead of making the conversation about something else.
If you guys can’t even be respectful to the people you are in the movement with, than when the movement fails, its probably because of the splintering you guys did.
Why oppose voting uncommitted other than because you support genocide? Legit give me one reason in the entire world to oppose voting uncommitted other than because you want to send the message to Biden that Palestinian genocide doesn’t matter/is good
Hey look, it’s a liberal genocide supporter deflecting rather than owning their shit views!
Why bother being quiet about it? Why not say it? Or deny it if it’s not the case? Because you know that everyone else will know you’re a piece of shit if you’re too honest about it. Fuck off zionist, know that you’re not at all sly about how much you love dead Palestinian children
Again, I advise psychiatry because nothing you have stated towards me is based in reality.
You aren’t helping Palestinians, you haven’t helped them and in truth, I don’t think you are capable of helping them, which explains the impotent rage directed at random people on the internet.
I think your uncommitted temper tantrum is doing nothing but putting gay and trans children within the crosshairs of Republicans and I think when you get your way, you’re going to experience genocide closer to home than you realized.
And your impotent rage will be even more useless than that is now.
Where’s the logic there? XD I can’t tell Biden I don’t want him to support genocide in Gaza bc somehow a vote in a primary that Trump isn’t running in will get him elected? I take it back, maybe you are really stupid and you think voting uncommitted will make Trump win, but I’m still betting that you know this and you’re just genocidal garbage. Have a shit night, from the river to the sea 🇵🇸💖
You are poisoning the well against a person you are going to vote for in the general?
I don’t believe that. Nobody believes that.
You’re just a stooge who thinks impotent rage will get you your way. You say your way is to save Palestinian lives, yet by your own admission you have done nothing to help Palestinians.
From top to bottom you are a fraud, and even your psychiatrist hasn’t been able to help you learn to hide that fact.
Maybe you hadn’t thought about it that way before is because you put yourself in a bubble where anybody who disagrees with you is actively engaged in genocide.
I really hope you get yourself out of whatever you are going through. You probably could be a good ally if you work past this emotional shit.
At least I’m not actively angling for them to get mass murdered like you. I’ve got a psychiatrist, I bet you’d benefit from one who can help you feel even the tiniest shred of empathy towards genocide victims and not want to kill even more
You’re such a coward omg xD hey at least you’re not stupid, you’ve done a great job at not saying the quiet part out loud. I don’t have what it takes to get you to slip up and admit to your bloodlust, so ig there’s no more point to replying after this. Free Palestine, fuck off zionist trash 💖🇵🇸
What other reason is there to not vote uncommitted? These are democratic primaries, trump gets nothing here. Give me one good reason not to take this free opportunity to let biden know genocide isn’t ok
First past the post voting, two party system means that mathematically, you are placing half a vote on Biden and half a vote on Trump by abstaining democracy doesn’t exist in the United States. Sorry you had to learn it this way. It’s also on its way out over here in Canada, don’t worry we’re catching up :(
Alternatively you could vote for whoever has the best platform LOCALLY in YOUR country, whoever that may be, and send angry letters letting them know that while you support some of their policies, you are uncomfortable with the president’s lack of support for a cause you consider just.
How can that lead to failure? He’s literally the incumbent, there’s basically no chance of him losing, and if he does that’s a clear sign someone else would have more support. Tf is your point? Rhetorical question, I know your point: you want more Palestinians to die but you’re too smart to say it out loud. Vote uncommitted motherfucker, there’s no reason not to other than to be complicit in genocide
Are you talking about the time Trump said the genocide is a bad look? Trump might not have a moral conscience, but at least he is has a political self-preservation instinct. Biden is blind-walking over a cliff in his genocidal determination.
Glad to see the goldfish memory of voters who missed what happened the last 4 times this has happened. I’m sure it’ll fix it this time and isn’t just a recurring right-wing strategy to alienate voters on the left with propaganda.
… completely ignoring the only other option was “even more genocide than that”. We didn’t get genocide because we elected Joe Biden. We got genocide because right wingers in Israel want to conduct a genocide. Removing Biden from the equation and replacing him with Trump does not improve the situation. Doing that would be the actual foolish move.
We got genocide because Biden refuses to hold Israel accountable for its actions like even Ronald Reagan did. Don’t pretend that he doesn’t have blood on his hands.
Because the incumbency advantage is incredibly powerful, Biden has beaten Trump before, and no other viable Democrats have indicated they want to run this election. I too would prefer someone else but it’s not like Biden there aren’t solid strategic reasons to run him again.
That, by definition, is “doing what I like”. If you’re holding out for your perfect candidate you may as well throw away your voter registration or admit you’re a troll farm employee.
No one is telling you that. We’re telling you that neither candidate is good on this issue and that the other candidate is significantly worse for the Palestinians.
We should protest and demand changes from the Biden administration for sure, but refusing to pull the lever for them in November based on this issue makes no sense whatsoever.
“We should protest and demand changes from the Biden administration for sure” and yet look at you shutting people down for doing exactly that xD you know normal people don’t buy liberals’ bullshit anymore right?
It won’t be the protest voters fault of Trump is elected but it would be something they could have prevented. Four more years of radical conservative judge appointments would create generations of degradation of women and minority group rights.
If that happens, protest voters could have prevented it, the DNC could have prevented it, Biden himself could have prevented it, all of the state governors and state legislators who didn’t fix gerrymandering and voter suppression efforts could have prevented it. You and I could have prevented it if we had gone door-to-door to get more people to the polling places. And so on.
It’s easy to say that any one group could have prevented it, but how do you choose who to target when doing so?
It’s not a binary issue. Both left wing protest voters and the dems are wrong IMO. (obvs in some states your vote doesn’t make a difference so have at it, protest away)
If you vote blue or left no matter what then you minimize your reach and power. When the elected officials have to work for your vote is when your vote matters. Biden or trump palestine issue isnt gonna change just like foreign policy hasnt changed blue or red. At the very least youd punish biden and set precedence moving forward. We clearly also need reform so we dont end up with two terrible human beings.
Welcome to Dumbass City, population: everyone itt saying that not voting biden in the primaries will somehow get trump elected xD yall are legit just as stupid as trump supporters, you straight up have no idea how primaries work but you’re too proud and too blindly, unshakably loyal to admit it cx vote uncommitted or vote for genocide, those are your options and you’ve made your opinions very clear on the matter. Have a shit day! Hope you trip and fall into a thorny bush :3
Democrats demand party unity but will unify only to the center while the republicans keep moving the center further to the right. They like to claim that the left is doing purity testing, but democrats are the biggest purity testers, where you have to do things their way or they say you’re being unreasonable and unrealistic and they will probably label you a republican in secret or a russian asset for daring to hold a different opinion.
No it’s going to be their fault. If we lose Social Security, Medicare, public schooling, basically every social safety net, any regulatory power the government has, and a right to free and fair elections then that will absolutely be on them. They’ve said that those things don’t matter to them in this scenario. If you’re for the destruction of all that then fuck you. It’s pretty simple.
US democracy is weak. With first past the post voting, a two party system is inevitable. But not voting Biden because he is “genocidal” is the dumbest excuse ever.
Fight to change the voting system, but don’t fight it by getting a literal fascist elected. Because that’s what you are responsible for if you don’t vote.
What’s dumb is putting “genocidal” in scare quotes and acting like genocide is not actually that big of a deal. I won’t vote for Biden or Trump because I value my vote too much to give it to an evil scumbag, red or blue. I’ll vote for Jill Stein or Cornel West.
“Fake news.” – used to negate the sources of an argument, often while providing alternate or misleading information to push an individual’s own interpretation of a subject; popularized by politicians in the US in 2016.
I guess if you live in an already decided stronghold state then go vote for whatever you want. Otherwise, don’t let a fantasy get in the way of the only obvious option if you like democracy.
The most salient fact for me is that they are both against genocide, so no, I don’t know. I might flip a coin. I could even vote for De La Cruz. I guess I’m just a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma!
You could equally argue I’m helping Biden by not voting for Trump. So tell me Professor Logic, what does it mean if the same reasoning can be used to argue that I’m helping both Biden and Trump?
Look, the humanitarian situation in Gaza is indisputably horrible and it’s absolutely the fault of Israel’s government. It may very well be genocide. International investigations will show.
Right now, it’s a war zone and it’s very hard to gather reliable evidence. That’s why I put it in quotes.
Not voting for Biden on this single issue is insane. It directly benefits Trump who, other than Biden, won’t try to ease the situation. He will actively make the conflict worse. He’ll also do his best to dismantle what is left of US democracy and worsen the lives of millions of people.
Fight for a better voting system. Protest against Biden’s foreign policy. But please don’t throw away your vote and give the world another term of Trump.
Anyone against voting uncommitted supports genocide, plain and simple. There’s no other explanation, Biden doesn’t even lose anything from those votes, it just let’s him know that his base is pissed about him supporting genocide. Vote uncommitted or for a less zionist candidate, if you don’t or you’re against this then your position on Gaza is clear. What other reason would there be to oppose that?
Your can’t vote uncommitted in generals, only primaries. You literally have no idea what you’re talking about cx why tf why don’t you quit while you’re only a few hundred miles behind
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