@markfoden Agree, just thinking is not a solution. However, I am really happy when my students are able to see and think about the systems. As it helps with explaining the bigger system, open boundaries, ripple effects in the system, etcetera. It also gives a language for discussing patterns. As a start…
Maybe that is also why some people also use the term ‘systems doing’, but that could also be a matter of semantics?? 🤷♀️ @antlerboy
@DanielleVossebeld Yes, understanding complexity and having language to talk about it is vital. You might be interested in what Eric Wenzel has to say about systems thinking in this podcast...
@markfoden I just listened to the podcast. It confuses me, because the systems thinkers you talk about sound theoretical with a limited view? Confining the label SystemThinkers to just them is similar to grouping humans as one actor. 😉
By the way, your discussion about diversity of humans vs social groups is also explained more extensively in Reassembling the Social by Latour. Also interesting reading material. @antlerboy
@DanielleVossebeld@markfoden ah yes - I enjoyed the clock and the cat podcast!
Lots could be said and I will try to relisten and say more - but can't now - but if you think that systems thinking is / necessarily is / should in a mechanistic metaphor, then that's a very limited view of systems.
I do agree that Senge school / weak Systems Dynamics and that CAS school / flocking etc often get trapped in that - not an uncommon human failing of course!
@DanielleVossebeld@markfoden but if you want to have space to say "paradoxically from many local interactions there emerges a global pattern, a global regularity that nobody planned for" as I understand Eric to be saying - even with human freedom and important factor - you're still in the domain of pattern and nebulosity which characterises systems | cybernetics | complexity - and complex adaptive processes - at a deep level.
@antlerboy@markfoden I don’t disagree with the ideas described in the podcast. I was mainly confused by the description of systems thinkers, as I consider myself one and found the description too small.
What is funny, by the way: I was just reading a book on networks 👇🏼 and something stood out.
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