Di4na,
@Di4na@hachyderm.io avatar

For everyone that calls for ways to make open source more secure, or for all their magical solutions that will provide money and resources to FOSS maintainers, please read this.

This is a rare account of the reality of maintainers, things that are hard, but also how much knowledge and niche expertise you need for anything in there.

That is why just giving money to experts will not help that much. It is too hard to train experts in this. But we may make it easier

http://rhaas.blogspot.com/2024/05/hacking-on-postgresql-is-really-hard.html

ljs,
@ljs@social.kernel.org avatar

@Di4na A very thoughtful piece, another factor I think that is often downplayed is the role of talent - the author of this piece is clearly very talented, but the number of people with enough talent in the world to work on highly complicated software like this is limited, so that adds YET ANOTHER filter on the number of people who can end up working on these things.

I think society as a whole tends to like to act as if anybody if they only want it hard enough could do these things whereas the reality is only a small fraction could.

Di4na,
@Di4na@hachyderm.io avatar

@ljs we have yet to find anything supporting that "talent" view, at least that hold to scrutiny

Paxxi,
@Paxxi@hachyderm.io avatar

@Di4na I agree with you but also, money buys time* and time is required to make new experts. One issue I see is getting non-experts funded so they can one day become experts

  • if the money allows maintainers to go from part time to work full time on the project.
Di4na,
@Di4na@hachyderm.io avatar

@Paxxi I mean maybe, but the problem is that once you do the maths on how much money you need to get there, the sustainability become... Surprisingly hard.

Paxxi,
@Paxxi@hachyderm.io avatar

@Di4na yep, it will be very hard for projects that require more than a couple of maintainers

Di4na,
@Di4na@hachyderm.io avatar

@Paxxi that is all of them?

Paxxi,
@Paxxi@hachyderm.io avatar

@Di4na not really? Openssl is two main maintainers afaik, curl is a couple.

Di4na,
@Di4na@hachyderm.io avatar

@Paxxi yes. And it is not enough by any mean. Openssl is well known to be a nightmare of a codebase

Paxxi,
@Paxxi@hachyderm.io avatar

@Di4na rethinking the structure might also make things easier. Instead of funding two+ maintainers for every project, a team of 5 could probably maintain many critical libraries that don't have a need for lots of new development

Di4na,
@Di4na@hachyderm.io avatar

@Paxxi reread the post. Realise what you just said.

We cannot. The job is so hard that a single commit can be months of full time fixing after.

Maintaining multiple cannot be squared with that

Paxxi,
@Paxxi@hachyderm.io avatar

@Di4na I'm thinking of things like xz, zlib, iconv and libraries of that sort.

I've already agreed that it doesn't work for larger and incredibly complex things like postgresql

Paxxi,
@Paxxi@hachyderm.io avatar

@Di4na I realize I've completely derailed the conversation so I'll stop here 😀

nicemicro,
@nicemicro@fosstodon.org avatar

@Di4na but money would help with the training, though. if someone would be paid a full salary just to immerse themselves into the codebase of a project, that would motivate people more to be able to participate, wouldn't it?

Di4na,
@Di4na@hachyderm.io avatar

@nicemicro I mean possibly, but then are you sure we would keep paying for the 9 months of fixing mistakes?

Also once you do the maths on the amount of money needed to get there, will we still be able to get that money sustainably?

bynkii,
@bynkii@mastodon.social avatar

@nicemicro @Di4na there is a massive difference between training and what you’re describing.

What you’re describing has a really high dropout rate.

Di4na,
@Di4na@hachyderm.io avatar

Like, whatever your scheme is, it needs to take something like this into account
"There's one particular patch I remember committing - I won't mention which one - where I spent weeks and weeks of time reviewing the patch before committing it, and after committing it, I lost most of the next six to nine months fixing things I hadn't caught during review"

stevel,
@stevel@hachyderm.io avatar

@Di4na scalability of reviewing is a real problem: I could probably go full time review code -but at the expense of my own work. But the barrier to giving people the commit bit is not just the ability the write great code -it’s to rigorously review other code and be ruthless about the quality of product and test code, even from colleagues
I’m pleased that none of my colleagues trust my code and treat it as a threat to the happiness their weeks being on call: ultimately they are correct.

Di4na,
@Di4na@hachyderm.io avatar

@stevel and even with lot of really rigorous reviews, it is still massively demanding to stabilize features.

We cannot consider reviews enough, it demands too much of the humans

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