@girls_can I think questions are dope. More people should ask them!! They give people the opportunity to elaborate their thoughts rather than feel obligated to defend their position. Same opportunities for learning, less conflict. It's just good manners!
@louie exactly! Sincere questions are a great way to build community. We don’t need to always agree, but with a truly open mind we can better grasp other peoples’ perspective and have more compassion for each other.
Louie, I am amazed to note that you and I seem to have joined Mastodon within a week of one another, in August 2018. So as one old-timer to another ... don't you feel like we have our own problematic posting habits over here? Like, in particular, we are prone, historically speaking, to lecturing people on how to behave. Which newcomers find off-putting. As well they might. Don't you think?
@richardgrant If you don’t like what I have to say, don’t listen. Move on, and don’t reply. There’s nothing more off-putting than a reply like this. Be gone.
@louie@richardgrant What you are basically saying is you want all the free exposure social media provides without the social part. You want to be heard without listening to any other point of view. Writing a blog might be easier than regulating responses here, tbh.
@louie It really is wild over here on Mastodon - the amount of mansplaining and Well Actuallys on this site feels like it dwarfs twitter at times. People will just rock up to tell you why you are wrong/what something ACTUALLY means, or explain to you a joke you made. And like you said, it’s one thing when it’s someone you know, but something entirely don’t when it’s someone you don’t know from Adam popping in like they know you.
@stopthatgirl7 Right. The context of friendship changes it completely. I think some networks like these with one-way follows give people the impression they’re friends when they’re not. So they behave in a way that’s overly close, like they’re your chums.
@louie Which can and has caused communication issues. There are jokes you can make with your friends that you can’t make with strangers, and they assume since they know you, you’re friends. There’s a level of sarcasm/rudeness that’s fine amongst friends but will be taken poorly by a stranger. A lot of folks don’t realize they’re involved in a one-sided, parasocial relationship because the person on the other end isn’t famous or well-known.
@louie Agree all of that - thanks for saying it. May I just comment that this is why I have been particularly joyful when I’ve positively connected with people where the initial link was an online follow. That also explains why leaving Twitter was so hard for me - the real-relationship-loop aspect of things has always been so important.
"Stop offering your opinion to people who don’t even know you. They don’t care."
You're posting this on a social website with the functionality to allow anyone to see it and respond to it. Literally putting your opinion out there to strangers then getting upset someone you don't know responds with a comment. No one is randomly crashing into your discord or dming you.
Maybe have a private chat/posts for just people you know if thats all you want. Maybe find a blog or a platform that allows you to disable comments if you don't like comments.
People are interacting because it's built in functionality of the website and to not really made to be a one way or private thing. It's a product of the features offered by the platform.
@borkcorkedforks you are not entitled to my time or attention, regardless of what UI is presented to you. UI is a tool, not an instruction manual. How you use the tool should adhere to social contracts and personal boundaries.
@louie I feel this so hard!! I didn't use Twitter much because strangers thought arguing & critiquing was harmless conversation & everything was open to it. Thanks for posting this
@louie I was hoping people would learn that if they don't want debate or argument, they shouldn't speak in public places because the world doesn't owe anyone a forum to speak that is free from engagement.
@louie Definitely feeling this with all the FUD that's been making the rounds across the Fediverse lately. Unlearning is very much an uphill battle but I'll get there someday. 😅
@louie
While I broadly agree with your point, I've also seen the other extreme too often on here already: people having their disagreements separately in their own timelines. That not only makes debates incredibly hard to follow. It also leads to the most toxic of their followers harrassing the other person through separate channels, making the harrassment nigh-invisible and creating an overall toxic environment. I'm starting to wonder if this type of platform inherently cultivates bad behavior.
@louie
if you're being civil, what's the issue? raising qualms about little things and constantly questioning and arguing is, in my opinion, a phenomenal way to learn,
@0x5DA I think it’s great to be civil, but sometimes I am frankly not in the mood to debate. Let me give you an example: today I sent out a few posts and it got a lot of attention, relatively speaking. People who disagree voice their comments in the replies.
I uh, have things I would’ve liked to have done today but instead spent it telling people I don’t want to argue with them.
@0x5DA it’s not that I don’t want replies. I just don’t like to use a platform like this to argue. I used Twitter for 15 years, okay? I… have made this decision for my own sanity based on a long experience using things like this.
@0x5DA but as I said with others, arguing can be a great way to learn when you have rapport, a relationship, and respect for the person you’re arguing with. If it’s a total stranger, there’s far too many unknowns about their perspective, life, worldview, circumstances, etc… to even bother engaging with them. Also… like I said… I would like to accomplish other things in a day than dedicate my time to arguing with people I don’t know. Totally different with friends.
@louie
well, there's definitely truth to that. but i also think there's value in arguing with strangers, because it can give you a totally new perspective on the matter.
furthermore, if you have a small group of friends its significantly easy to succumb to the echo chamber effect.
if you don't want to argue, sure! don't reply. but it's an open chat platform for a reason - let people reply and debate oftentimes they'll settle an argument without your intervention.
@0x5DA this has turned into an argument and I am not interested in your perspective on this. I don’t know you. You’ve given me no reason to listen to your perspective.
@louie After more than a decade of acting like a bunch of fools to entertain the tech billionaires who built social media for their own amusement... Well, it's a bit difficult to change, but change we must. We will, in time...
@louie you just set up a post designed so you could tell everyone else to shut up and get in line with your beliefs.
I’m happy to offend your false piety. Intimidating phoneys like you out of your unearned domination of conversations that should rightfully belong to underrepresented groups (especially on this self styled cloud of virtue) is one of the joys of the internet.
Sorry you lack the insights the rest of us are forced to learn through unasked for risk. Fuck off.
@louie
While we're at it, avoid fallacious statements as they are based on faulty logic. HASTY GENERALIZATION is a FALLACY because its conclusion is based on an insufficient or nonrepresentative sample. In other words, when one jumps to a conclusion too quickly based on just a few examples that DON'T NECESSARILY REPRESENT THE WHOLE, IT'S A FLAWED LOGIC.
Fallacies, including HASTY GENERALIZATION, are problematic because they often lead to MISINFORMATION & STEROTYPING.
@walterdunham This reply sounds to me like you're trying to piggyback on my post's popularity to share your own thoughts. Please post these kinds of toots on your own timeline.
@louie Posting on an open forum, in public, is and invitation to discourse in my book.
Meeting strangers and discussing things of mutual interest is why I'm on here; if you're not on here for the same reason, then as you so dismissively put it,
@big_louse If you care to consider the notion, I challenge you to consider whether this reply is better, worse, or about the same as having actually sarcastically argued with me.
@louie well what I'm trying to communicate is that you are totally correct and I agree with your positive and wholesome advice, while also maintaining a level of ironic detachment because I'm afraid of being hurt.
So simply alluding to my aborted intention to ironically argue with you, I think, is an improvement over actually doing so, which would be of greater risk of being misunderstood.
@big_louse Yet the expectation for attention is the same.
Keep in mind, replies end up in kind of an inbox format inside a network like this, in a list of other things I am expected (on some level) to look at, and perhaps address.
Maybe some things are just left unsaid. You can agree or disagree silently. It's worth sharing when you think I need to hear it. Did I need to hear it? That's what I'm asking you to consider.
@louie Trying the yes, and approach… given that this is an open forum and conversation and learning is kind of the of the purpose, how do you imagine a better way? Your statement is quite strong and people might disagree (as they do, I won’t talk about my perspective).
I’m not sure it’s better if we stick to agreeing or being silence. That’s not how anything changes or convergence can be reached.
Have you considered that getting contra might be a good way to learn something?
@b3n It is tedious to repeat myself for a constantly evolving new audience, but— If you wish to discuss or debate with someone, I suggest you ask first. It is important to have consent from someone you expect to receive attention from or engage with.
It is unreasonable to that every person wants to engage with you.
It is the difference between venting and looking for conversation or help. Sometimes it's just best to ask before you offer what the other person isn't looking for.
@b3n@louie Totally agree with you, I wish I could of blocked you before seeing your crappy opinion in my feed, wasting my time. Is there a preemptive “block crappy people button”?
@louie All that said: you stated your opinion and are free to it. You also implicitly ask people who follow you or follow your boosting followers to spend time to read it so I’m not sure your argument is morally sound. (Thanks to the reply button) You’re not entitled to not listen to people who (thanks to the algorithm) “have” to listen to you.
But yeah, we can all block along, this is a free world :)
@b3n I do not like the premise of your last question, "have you considered that getting contra might be a good way to learn something," because it feels passive-aggressive.
This implies that contradictory opinions are not only warranted, but good to hear.
A mere contradiction does not always result in a good learning experience. Someone can contradict me and be dead wrong.
With my friends, people I know, I am more willing to listen. With strangers, I am not.
@b3n As a side note, I notice you do not follow me, which would imply that you saw my toot from someone who boosted it into your timeline.
I would presume (perhaps incorrectly), that it was boosted by someone you follow because they wanted to share it with their followers. And if you follow them, that meant you too.
If you think contradictions are good for learning, then consider how my thoughts here may contradict yours, rather than how your (or anyone else's) replies contradict mine.
@b3n I do not care if you disagree with me or want to argue with me, by the way. And using the term "morally sound" makes me cringe so hard, like you are somehow the arbiter of what is morally sound.
The reply button is a tool, not an explicit invitation for you to shout into anyone's ear.
@b3n Furthermore, I do not think you are in any position to decide what the "purpose" of this network is for anyone but yourself.
Everyone will use this differently, and you are going to have to accept that. I want to use it one way, you want to use it another. Fine. But don't impose your implied rules on me. I don't exist to satisfy your requirements.
@louie You don't have to read comments if you don't like them. It's just nuts to post things publicly then be shocked people have the "audacity" to comment on it. Like what were you actually expecting?
Like I said if you want something to be a private thing and not hear from strangers make it a private thing. If it's public you're going to get comments when it's an option. The only way it's going to be different is if the platform supports the features you want.
@louie I personally enjoy debate so it’s hard to remember people typically don’t like their opinions being challenged. Thanks for the reminder because I needed it.
@johnpeden I love to argue too. http://lmnt.me/post/arguments.html But it's important to remember context. It's less about "being challenged" and more about mutual consent. Did the other person agree to have an argument or debate with you? If not, then... don't engage in one.
@lps I think that's true. I think people need time to adjust when going to a new space. That applies whether it's a digital space, a new city or country, or even something like a work environment. Everywhere has it's own implicit rules, guidelines, vibes.
@kcarruthers Pardon my frankness, but whether or not you think I'm right doesn't matter to me. When you reply, you step into someone's personal space. If you take a moment and realize a reply isn't needed, don't send it, because that's just a notification sitting on someone else's phone. Let's make them more worthwhile, yeah? https://pdx.social/@louie/110624180711730538
@louie I’ll admit, I like the sort of low stakes, low importance arguments/debates that can crop up on occasion, as long as it’s with other people who are looking for it as well. I’ve been trying to make a point of noticing when I actually start treating it as more than that and just stepping away, though.
Add comment