Someone is holding that bag, though. Unfortunately for us, the people holding that bag have the kind of money to make our lives hell just for a fraction of a percentage point of value for their bottom line.
The really bad news is the one left holding the bag is the commercial real estate market, which if it goes under due to remote work reducing demand for office space theb it’s likely to heavily impact bank stability. So there is reason to be concerned as individuals low on the chain
This is also really bad news for all the small businesses that rely on the office workers who work from home now. I’m all for shoving it to the billionaires and mega corps but it seems like everyone’s forgotten about all the small(er) businesses they deal with on a daily basis and all the people who work for them.
There’s also the tax revenue streaming from the offices, small businesses, and the people who work there. Less people taking public transportation makes them less safe and slows progress on improvements. It’s not difficult to imagine city coffers shrinking, leaving room for more abandoned store fronts and an increase in crime.
I mean, if there’s enough people who are no longer going to work everyday, there’s a potentially devastating outcome on the horizon. Let’s not get distracted by our elation of the wealthy (possibly) suffering. This is bad news for everyone who lives in a city.
well my hope is it pushes investment back.into leisure and third space usage, to encourage people back into cities for fun reasons rather than just to operate a keyboard which I can do from anywhere
I agree and actually if the commercial areas of the cities become more residencial. In my experience they become safer because some massive commercial areas when the sun goes down they are not nice to walk.
I’ve been wondering why this isn’t talked about more.
All those commercial mortgages are intertwined with banks, and retirement accounts, and all sorts of “stable” investments.
Plus it’s not just the offices directly affected by pandemic remote work that aren’t renewing their leases. New companies wont lease a building since it’s not expected anymore, and big companies will be counting the beans to see how much they can save by reducing office space.
This is a phase shift in commercial real estate that I don’t think banks have budgeted for.
I’m sure everyone on wall street knows it’s coming, but if they can act surprised and get another bailout in a major crash, that’s just going to cost you and me our futures, again.
To clarify (what I think you’re talking about), CMBS ie commercial mortgage backed securities is eerily similar to the bullshit that kicked off the '80 ‘great recession’, which was speculation / shorting on MBS. I remember reading an economist at the time of '08 saying this is very bad, but he predicts we’ll just about scrape through it, followed by a long period of stagnating growth, zero lessons learned, then a crash which will make '08 look like a fender bender.
I always hoped he was wrong but day by day, month by month, I saw his prediction coming true.
And there it is. This is the reason why so many companies are insisting on RTO. The C-level bosses are being pressured by their ultra rich friends who own the land to justify their high real estate valuations and rent so they can continue to make more money. They’re happy to do it too… No compromise for them… Most of them are old conservative fucks that are probably angry at all the technology disconnecting them from their ability to interrupt their workers whenever they feel like it, so they can dump their stress, anger and frustration on their subordinates by reprimanding them without just cause.
It’s the same old story, rich folks screwing over the common poors for their own selfish reasons to their own self-serving ends. Progress? No problem, as long as it makes them more money, costs them less in expenses, and gives them more power over the rest of us.
The guy above definitely could have left the politics out of that comment, since there’s nothing more bipartisan than rich people fucking the working class.
Yes they do, that’s freedom of speech ole chum. And you’re free to ignore them. You’re free to say what you want but you’re not free of the consequences of your speech; if one of those consequences is that people think you’re a bumbum living a bumbum life, and treat you accordingly, well that’s just life I’m afraid.
You seem very fixated on left vs right. What do you want from life? A fair go, right? You want to be paid fairly for the work you do, and have the opportunity to rent or buy housing that doesn’t leave you with no disposable income? You want to be treated with respect?
Many of us whether on the left or the right want exactly the same thing. Many on the right have been gaslit into thinking a) they don’t want the above b) the ‘left’ are their enemy. We’re all just people, and most of us want the same things, when you dig down. Respect, fair pay, housing that doesn’t leave us destitute. It shouldn’t be a big ask imo.
I can’t remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you’re saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it’s not literally illegal to express.
Trump can be whatever he wants, but logically that doesn’t define where his opposition stands. Biden could be moderate left or extreme left, unless you think everything is 1 and 0…? I’m confused
I mean this in the friendliest, most non-confrontational way; It sounds as though you’ve been fed quite a bit of misinformation, Biden is most definitely not Far Left. If you’d like me to elaborate I am willing.
I’m not the OP, but I know exactly what you’re saying. To elaborate a slight bit on what you’ve said here: most of what we call “the left” is actually fairly centerist; it’s left-leaning at most. The far left is far more authoritarian than anything. To see authoritarianism in action, look no further than your current employer - they’re all the same. Politically, they’re typically very far right leaning, but when they’re put in a position of control, they tend to lean hard into authoritarianism.
The US isn’t anywhere near far left. We have a center right party and a far right party. Look at healthcare. The left wing position is single payer. The centrist position is an insurance market with a public option to keep prices competitive. The right wing position is no public option and an oligopoly to price gouge people. Even the centrist option is considered too far left for Dems.
Communities / local governments are also pressuring people to return to office work so small businesses and their employees don’t continue to struggle in a post-covid economy. Less people going to work means more vacant store fronts, less people on public transit, less tax revenue, and more crime. By all means, press your frustration with the old conservative fucks, just don’t let the media and personal grievances distract us from what’s happening on the ground in our communities.
There is no need to imply it is a “right wing” exclusive issue. Many people on centre and left exist to leech off society as corporate bourgeois, in the form of C suite, managers, HR, and what not. It is a capitalism issue, which is fundamentally economically right wing. When you say “conservative”, try to make the distinction between social, economical, diplomatic and civil leanings.
Captialism is more conservative/right than liberal/left. Most of the left-leaning people I’ve met are more communial/“communist” (to the dictionary definition of communism, which, if you’re unaware, is: “Communism is a left-wing to far-left sociopolitical, philosophical, and economic ideology within the socialist movement, whose goal is the creation of a communist society, a socioeconomic order centered around common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange that allocates products to everyone in the society based on need.”); whereas conservative/right tends to be more authoritarian/capitalistic usually believing in a universal justice system, where if you do good things, you will be rewarded in kind, therefore, being successful = doing things right and being just in your actions.
I’m not sure what you believe, honestly your comment is rather confusing to me, but the fact of the matter is that communism and communal services are generally good for everyone, especially the lower-class, and capitalism only rewards those with money/power/influence to gain more, at the expense of everyone else. Yet, conservatives fly this banner of communism is bad and capitalism will react to the market (whatever that means); economically speaking, a healthy, well educated public is a more productive public; regardless of what system you subscribe to, more productivity is better for humanity overall; to have a healthy, well-educated public, you need communal resources that people can leverage to be healthy, and well educated (like highschool, and healthcare). To tie personal responsibility for healthcare or education (financially) to your own productivity is a net-negative to all, as many will need to decide between survival day-to-day and being healthy and/or educated. A large driving force for people dropping out of school is to make money to take care of elderly/sick relatives/family; pushing those that cannot afford such things, even those that might be the next albert einstein or nikola tesla, into poverty and working at slave wages, never seeing their full potential and their full benefit to society as a whole. There may be an underprivileged, poor kid living in rural massachusetts who can’t get educated enough to get a job where they can make the society changing breakthrough they could all because their parent needs them to work at mc.donalds to make ends meet to feed themselves and their family, and cover their medical bill payments. Since we don’t know who, or where the next genius is that will change society with the things they invent, condemning them to a life of incremental payments on an unfathomably large, life-long debt may stunt the ability for society to reach the next level of development for decades or more.
meanwhile in a communal/communist society where everyone can get the medical coverage they need, free, or at least at a deep discount, nobody worries about food or housing security, the cost of education, etc. then each person can live up to their full potential, given the freedom to do so. The main problem with all communist systems of government to date has been that someone, namely a human, has to decide what each person is able to receive under that system, which, since that human is a human and in being so, they are inherently flawed, greedy, and self-serving, the system fails; since they will prioritize themselves and the people they think are worthy, instead of the society as a whole. Communism is a good system, putting the control in the hands of the public, the problem is that someone has to represent that public interest, and nobody is capable of doing that without having their decision tainted by their own selfishness and greed.
Bringing this back to the point: the capitalistic c-suite and their views are deciding everyone’s worth, and dictating rules and stipulations on how you should function for and at work, including work from home. It’s interesting because it’s a microcosm of authoritarian socialism inside of a capitalistic society. Each organization is, unto itself an authoritarian socialistic governance which is itself governed by capitalism. The c-suite decides what each worker can and cannot have, how much they are compensated for their efforts, what resources are available, etc, often without any input (or at least very little input) from workers, and when a decision is made, there is no method for appeal by the workers. Modern businesses are authoritarian communism, while society is a capitalist paradise of shitfuckary.
Personally, I support things like universal healthcare, and universal basic income, as well as several other communistic/communal supports, whether I would personally need those supports or not; including for post-secondary education, which I believe should be fully compensated by the society in which we live, so that society can benefit from a younger generation that is highly educated; despite the fact that I paid for my education (100% paid off), and would see no benefit from it. Giving people the freedom and security of always having access to healthcare, and always having access to education, and always having food on the table (by proxy of UBI), and a roof over their head (again by proxy of UBI), is a good starting point IMO.
We the people (the workers in this case) have no say in how, where, and what we’re working on, we’re essentially slaves to our authoritarian masters, who are the c-suite. They say jump, we have the choice of jumping, or quitting. that’s it. Our ability to protest or enact changes that would help with safety, wages, workload, etc, is basically null. We can voice our opinions to our superiors, who are free to ignore anything we say/want, and do whatever they please, and either we play ball, or we quit or get fired. That’s not capitalist, that’s authoritarian; which, if I may point out, is exactly what the problem with communism has always been… some person in the position of ultimate authority dictating what you can or cannot do, and what you get in return for your efforts.
Yet, here you are apparently defending such people, under the guise of “capitalism”. incredible.
Captialism is more conservative/right than liberal/left. Most of the left-leaning people I’ve met are more communial/“communist”
Yet, here you are apparently defending such people, under the guise of “capitalism”. incredible.
Unsure how you even manage to extract the essence of me defending right wing capitalists here. I am making the abstractions you indulged in clear for everyone as a monologue. It is a fact that capitalism is littered with liberal left, centrist and even anarchist bourgeois apologists. The moment you subscribe to individualism/imperialism/monarchism is the moment you subscribe to capitalism, which is what a lot of people do economically.
Most people only hate capitalism when they cannot buy something when shopping, or more tolerant ones if they struggle to buy their essentials. They have no moral or ideological conscience when claiming to unsubscribe from capitalism.
Money as the capital makes this economic leaning more dominant than social, diplomatic or civil preferences, which is why capitalism holds such a nice grip on society, no matter which political faction people come from outside of socialists.
Edit: now that I reread your rant, I think you popped off for a nothingburger. I was and am still trying to correct you on how social and economical leanings can be different for everyone, and your critique is misworded which can come off as being misplaced. I think you should check out 8values. My score = 8values.github.io/results.html?e=84.0&d=69.4&g=58…
just as many others, my views are also tainted by my own personal situation and experience, and all I want to say about that right now is that I’m presently fighting with my management staff about WFH vs RTO; I don’t think I have to say this, but I’m largely in favor of WFH, and they’re largely pushing RTO. The problem is that it’s “their way or the highway” more-or-less and I’m frustrated in this situation. A friend of mine is so strong in that opinion that he left his high paying position when they announced mandatory RTO, and I think he did the right thing. There’s many others that feel the same.
Fact is, this translates directly to the authoritarian viewpoint of business owners; there’s a lot of people who want WFH to be permanent, and many business owners that want RTO to be mandatory. The more I view this issue, the more the scientific data shows that WFH is often more productive, and yet articles I keep seeing lately, seem to be alleging that “WFH doesn’t work” usually citing management’s FEELINGS or OPINIONS on the matter, with no hard proof, studies or scientific analysis of whether those statements are in any way accurate beyond how managers feel. I’m very much in support of optimizing progress, and I want people to be the best they can be, and work as productively as they can, yet, we’re often pushed into situation where we would rather do it another way, one that improves employee morale and productivity, yet for no good reason beyond some manager’s feelings we end up having to do it the way they want us to, and often our work and productivity suffer for it.
I don’t hate capitalism or consumerism or conservatives, regardless; I’m very much in favor of personal freedom, as long as that freedom doesn’t restrict the freedoms of others; you can think/feel/believe/whatever anything you want, just don’t force me to do it your way or get financially ruined in the process of seeking my own freedom. Don’t get me wrong, there are jobs that are incapable of being WFH, but as the last few years has taught us, that number is far smaller than what the management would like us to believe. Often, not only can those jobs be done remotely, but they are often done more efficiently and productively than if you’re forced to work in a place you would rather not need to be. Every person is different, so WFH vs office work should be a personal choice; in many cases, it is not, simply on the whim of some manager’s say-so.
In the end, my belief is that everyone should be allowed to choose their own way through this life; to be productive on their terms and decide what they can handle and what they cannot. I’m no stranger to work, nor working for little to no compensation, provided I have my basic needs met, then I couldn’t care less what I’m being paid. The fact is, I’m forced to push further into my career, in a direction I don’t want to go, simply to gain more pay, I don’t want to be management, I don’t want to be a business owner, I want to be in the weeds of a problem and actively work towards fixing it, in my line of work, that can be done entirely at a computer, and 99% of the time, it is entirely done at a computer screen. The geographical placement of that computer and screen are 99% of the time, irrelevant. Regardless of these facts of my job, my employer, under threat of financially ruining me with unemployment, is forcing full-time in-office work.
Turn the page and just about every workplace is doing the same, regardless of what’s required. It doesn’t matter what their justification is, if it’s not a safety concern, or a proven more productive way to do something, then employees should be free to work in their own way with very few exceptions. The part I’m most offended by is the fact that every individual worker is required as condition of being employed, to pay for their own transportation to attend a workplace, whether that attendance is required or not. So you have to contribute freely, your time and effort to satisfy their requirement for you to be there, under the threat of unemployment and potential financial ruin as a result. The argument being that they didn’t tell you to, nor are they responsible for, where you live, or how long you have to travel, nor what mode of transportation you choose to utilize; fact is, I didn’t choose to have to be in office, and I should be compensated for the time, effort and money I’ve spent to be there to satisfy their requirement for my physical presence; regardless of how long of a trip it is, by which mode of transport and whatever amount of money I had to spend to get there.
but it applies to more than just travel to the workplace. The list is long, and not worth going over every point, I’m just selecting a few highlights from my own recent struggles and frustrations. There’s a lot more to my story, obviously, but I’ve already typed several hundred words on the topic expressing my point of view. I may not be the most articulate speaker or the most refined, as my mind is often spinning on all the different frustrations I’m dealing with instead of typing a coherent and focused point, but the concerns I have are valid for my situation and I imagine, many other people’s as well.
We speak of freedom, but I’m not sure we really know what that means; right now, to me, it seems that I’m free to choose my employer from a slew of bad and worse options; none of which will meet my requirements for employment, so ether I choose to work for terrible pay to get what I want and struggle to make ends meet, or I compromise my freedoms in order to achieve a higher wage, where I won’t struggle nearly as much to make things work. The whole thing is a mess. When it comes to employment, you don’t have freedom, the companies hold the cards, and you either play their game, or go find another table with similar hardships placed against you, and the deck stacked in their favor.
Now I can see why you popped off, and want to tell about your situation. WFH vs RTO is such an asinine thing, because of how the world is in control of “factory owners”. The ones that hold a grip on you are corporate hierarchy top dogs, one type of “factory owner”. I think your friend either explored his options beforehand, and/or had enough saved in his bank to take the gamble.
I don’t hate capitalism or consumerism or conservatives, regardless; I’m very much in favor of personal freedom, as long as that freedom doesn’t restrict the freedoms of others;
my belief is that everyone should be allowed to choose their own way through this life; to be productive on their terms and decide what they can handle and what they cannot.
For the parasitic managers, HR and other heads, you are trampling on the “office culture” and their parasitic job pay. When you have no socialism or trade unionist politics, and when corporate/government capitalist nexus grows beyond strong, this is where you and millions of others end up with. There is no freedom in a “free” society whose foundations lay in capitalism. USA sells the “freedom in a free society” hotdog to everyone, and people happily eat it up thinking its a free treat.
You either have to suck it up to corporates eternally, or temporarily leech the leeches for a while to be able to make the least risky gambles to lessen your suffering in the future. There is no other way in this system, where capitalism has loaded decks when you have barely any aces to pull. This is why dismantling of Western individualist capitalism is so critical for all of global society.
I live in a family that loves its capitalism and “authority” bootlicking and that frowns on unions. I am from India. I am a mindhacker that feels far too isolated away from this kind of kowtowing, uncritical, slacking society, and have always lived a life trying to help people through the internet. Even gave a chunk of my life everyday the past 3 years to help make Lemmy what it is now, to help dismantle Reddit away (even got few big subs migrated like piracy), and build Fediverse, while doing a lot of other stuff.
I’m very pro-union, but in my line of work, creating a union is nearly impossible, even in a company very heavily focused on my job; I work in I.T. and often we’re the last to be included. Most workers are happy to omit IT workers from unions, and legislation usually omits us from some worker protections, like how many hours you can work in a row, or how many hours you have on the books per week, etc. The factory owners (as you call them) see IT as a cost center, not as the critical resource it is. Even in very large companies, IT workers are usually a vast minority and often, at least from what I can tell, we’re lumped in with middle management, to be excluded from the workers. There’s usually very small teams of IT folk, usually far fewer than are required, and we’re treated like garbage from both sides; despite every effort we make being for the good of everyone, either management or worker, we’re trying to help. IMO, we’re far closer to the workers than we are the management, but people don’t seem to see it that way.
So my hopes for a union are effectively pointless, since even if I get in with a company that has a union, it’s very likely that the union will specifically omit my job as one covered by them. So I’m left to struggling against the ruling class in the organization, alone, since all my IT coworkers are too fearful of their own job security to present a unified front against anything. I seem to be unique in that I will forcefully make myself heard; I will speak up about it, and I’m not afraid of it. I’m not in a position to remain unemployed for any length of time, but I do it anyways.
My friend has a rather significant financial cushion to land on. He has long since paid off his debts and has been putting away any money he didn’t otherwise need to spend, whether on food, or rent or whatever… so with few expenses (mainly internet, phone and rent for him), and significant income ( six-figures CAD/yr), he was able to make substantial savings; so he was in a privileged position to relieve himself from his employer based on that, and live comfortably on savings for many months before acquiring new work. That was a few weeks ago for him, so he’s taking the time to de-stress and relax before getting back into the job market - an opportunity that he has, which I do not.
Luckily for me (and I recognise the privilege here) I’m in Canada, and we have several social structures that can support someone through unemployment; in my case, I’m able to leverage our healthcare system, specifically with my general practitioner (family doctor), who has put me on a medical leave due to stress. He may use a different diagnosis, but his specific justification to the business/government doesn’t matter as much as the purpose of my leave, which is to alleviate stress and improve my mental well-being. The government supports in place (here it is called “employment insurance” or EI), provide enough that I should be able to coast along with few compromises without work until I am either ready to return to the workplace, or I am ready to find a new job (the choice is up to me at this point). It is very fortunate for me that my GP is on my side in all this, and he’s willing to facilitate what I need for my well-being. Not everyone has this luxury, but since I have it, I’m going to leverage it to keep myself from going off a cliff, either metaphorically, or literally.
there’s a lot more that can be said, but I’ll keep it as brief as I can: I understand what you’re saying and I agree, it’s not a great situation to need to deal with, but with capitalism as strongly situated as it is, it’s difficult to fight against it for something better. I appreciate you and all you’ve said and tried to understand, and I wish you all the best.
My new COO invited a few of us out individually to get a grasp on why people are leaving and how we can retain people. He really did suggest a ping-pong table. I think all of us set him straight that we couldn’t care less about that. I broke my personal record last month for hours worked in a week. It was over 75. If I leave, it will be because of that. Not because we don’t go to baseball games as a team, or don’t have a Foosball table.
This is so frustratingly common. I worked for a company I loved and it got bought out by a company I hated. When people (including me) started quitting, the CTO said “but why? We have video games in the break room.”
Large companies are often run by crazy people, I guess.
Oh no! The company is going to miss so many important aha moments that only happen spontaneously on coffee corner chit chat among the “how was your weekend with the kids and the wife”. To think of how many technological breakthroughs we’re going to miss…
when my shit gets wiped out its “a market correction”. let’s see if this is “a market correction” or a “crisis” that requires federal intervention (read: a bunch of your money stolen at gunpoint and given to the people who made bad investments)
Well after I wrote it I thought, dancing-and-intoxicants clubs are meaningful to me and my friends, but I bet there’s all sorts of other clubs that would benefit from a dedicated, affordable space to flourish. Your chess club DOES deserve a nice building.
YOU get a building! And YOU get a building… and YOU get a building!
I love when cities have the small business + apartment layout.
Especially when the ground level has something useful like a bodega, so people can just go downstairs for food and necessities instead of driving somewhere.
I work remote twice a week, which is nice, but I seriously wonder why I even have to go to the office the other three days.
Most of who I communicate with to do my job is not even in my location, so I’m regularly using Microsoft teams and WebEx. Also all the programs are accessible on my work laptop from home.
A lot of the investments by big companies were made in 2018-2019 with low near 0% interest. now a lot of those loans are coming due which will impact their total assets. they want workers in the office to keep Corp real estate in demand so their investments don’t tank. most likely will result in massive layoffs or bail outs as they will try to protect the shareholders for eternal growth.
Yea that’s true. You still can’t design and build an iphone, or near any physical product, remotely. But this is what people want to do. I work for a manufacturing company and there are engineers who want to stay at home and never see the prototypes and never colloborate on them in person. They aren’t going to last much longer. Good riddance. I’m pointing this out because there is a comment below me that says this is “all about control”. There’s a ton of jobs that should not be done remotely. There are a ton of jobs that can be done remotely too. The world is complicated.
I work in engineering, for 3 years we haven’t gone into office. There are in person things when needed, but the majority of design and engineering time is a solitary task.
Programming and fields like it can be done remotely. Manufacturing cannot be done remotely (like you said). I work in a semiconductor fab and my job is most definitely not compatible with remote work. I would like to transition to a job where I can be remote though, at some point.
I seriously wonder why I even have to go to the office the other three days.
You don’t; and you know this already.
I quit my union job when the new hotshot manager started mandating RTO into a newly compressed, hot, bright, loud environment; being able to actually see asses in chairs was his jam, despite the work impact. What a tool.
Found a job with another unionized IT shop, paid for it with a 3% pay cut but got an extra week of vacation (net loss: 3 days pay/yr) and a really great crew and 100% remote written into the contract. Thanks, ya tool.
They are starting the force people back to work at my company. Apparently a location had a fight break out and police called because of an argument over a spot. There isn’t enough room at these places so they were trying to make people go to an office an hour away instead.
If I were to go into the office I wouldn’t have anyone else on my team with me. And if someone were to ask me to do work, I could have easily done it if they sent a message instead of walking by. I also don’t eat lunch, so I would just work with headphones in. So I wouldn’t contribute to the collaboration that is claimed to take place.
The only reason they want people back in the office is for that control. They don’t want people having a good work/life balance. They want you to waste money on gas, time away from your family, and to eat out more often. It would be great if some states would prevent companies from forcing back to office.
This right here! My commute is rather long. I spend about 2 hrs total of my day commuting to and from work. I could save so much time and money on gas if I was full time remote.
I quit a job that was trying to force RTO to a new office that was half an hour away from the old one, had paid parking instead of free and then only had enough office space to house 2/3 of employees at any given moment. They literally told us that for all-hands meetings people were expected to come in and sit on the floor. Then I quit a different job that was trying to force RTO when they owned the nearest parking garage to the office. You might think “Well at least you won’t have to pay to park” but nope, they expected to juice every employee for $12-$18/day in parking.
work with headphones in. So I wouldn’t contribute to the collaboration that is claimed to take place.
In the new cramped environment with low visual privacy and especially no audio privacy, we all just end up with earpods in. We need the noise isolation to f’n THINK!
So the boss oozes his way over and ‘hums’ and ‘haws’ trying to get our attention before waving and doing that “hey pull out your earbuds so I can talk” gesture that resembles yokels trying to pick up someone in an elevator or on the bus and not.getting.it .
Because he doesn’t.
So that is the life of people I left at the old job, and it’s repeated a thousand times over.
Learn to also say on the phone “this environment has no audio privacy. Can you book meeting and a conference room? Thanks”, if you get too many desk calls.
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