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Heterokromia, in HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals avatar

@yogthos The hp printer I bought disabled itself after my firewall blocked its spyware/telemetry.
(The box said I needed an 'internet connection' not a 'raw, unfiltered connection'. And any computer worked/works on said connection.)

I took it back to the retailer. They unhappily refunded my money.

You should do that to.

markusl, avatar


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  • Heterokromia, avatar

    @markusl @yogthos M234sdwe, but I think it is a shared bug in all new hp printers. Otherwise excellent, but it has this incredibly stinky dead cat tied to its leg....

    piggo, (edited ) avatar

    @markusl @Heterokromia @yogthos don't buy any hp. I made this experience already, it didn't like a thin paper and just irreparably locked up. It's a bad company

    rasterweb, avatar

    @Heterokromia @yogthos Oh, Brother! <-- recommendation.

    croyle, avatar

    @Heterokromia @yogthos HP is so awful, I regret owning oe of their printers still, and an old laptop.


    @Heterokromia @yogthos
    I bought a JBL Bluetooth speaker and it wanted to access my contact list and call history in order to just play music. Nope, took it back.

    srfirehorseart, (edited ) avatar

    @Heterokromia @yogthos

    I'm on an HP ink sub, as I have a printer a friend gave me - to replace an old printer that had jammed (after 10 years). The old printer was probably a Brother, which worked well despite my lack of maintenance.

    IThe newer HP is a great printer apart from its need to constantly monitor my usage. I'll keep it until I get a another affordable colour printer.

    thiagocsf, avatar

    @Heterokromia @yogthos at this point I’m more wary of printer manufactures than used car salesmen.

    nfgusedautoparts, avatar

    @Heterokromia @yogthos there was a time i respected HP. i have two HP printers both of which are 1) very nice and 2) predate ink and toner madness. HP has cured my respect for the company. i shall not buy another of their products.


    @nfgusedautoparts @Heterokromia @yogthos same, I still have an old HP inkjet I bought at Circuit City in 2004 that's still going strong, but I won't touch any new stuff


    @Heterokromia @yogthos And it Came To Pass that one of the Master's Chattering Servants found it self alone, and unable to commune with it's Master.
    This made it sullen, and it spat in it's Caretakers face.
    Many would have bent the knee, but this Caretaker was wiser than most.
    It banished the Chattering Servant from its domain, and demanded restitution from the Chaos Merchants.

    Hail to thee, @Heterokromia

    Canecittadino, avatar

    @Heterokromia @yogthos @cstross Why do I get the feeling that in an age where your toothbrush spies on you, where even the mightiest can be caught with their genitals in unseemly positions in unseemly places, where media gotcha engines have finally lapsed into a coma after getting everybody who can possibly be gotten, we’ll see a mighty uprising of tolerance? After all, didn’t someone righteously god-fearing once tell us that we’re all sinners in the hands of a bespoke surveillance algorithm?

    cstross, avatar

    @Canecittadino @Heterokromia @yogthos

    Sadly, I disagree.

    "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him."

    —Cardinal Richelieu


    "If you've done nothing wrong you've got nothing to hide"

    — Various People

    Now meet deepfakes.

    Everyone is guilty: it may just take the Party some time to reveal the evidence of the crime they must have committed.

    Canecittadino, avatar

    @cstross @Heterokromia @yogthos Well of course I would agree with you if it were simply a matter of “homo homini lupus.” The thing is that in the historical contexts you rightly appeal to, it has always been possible for the inquiring class to excuse themselves from inquiry. Until they couldn’t, of course—a Man for All Seasons, Politburo purges under Stalin, etc. Once we all have access to AWS and ChatGPT X, everyone will live in fear until the mode of the music changes. Which it just might do.

    jkmcnk, avatar

    @Canecittadino @cstross @Heterokromia @yogthos you see, there's this thing called power, which is fairly unevenly distributed, so there's always people that are beyond any inquiry and very interested in that those others aren't. this latter thing is called control. and the times we live in tell that both concepts are very much fine and well and much the same as they were in the historic times. so, yes, you should care about your privacy. 🤷

    Canecittadino, avatar

    @jkmcnk @cstross @Heterokromia @yogthos All true for now, but the situation is also more fluid than it used to be, largely because of the rapid evolution of communications technologies. Compare the longevity of the Roman Catholic Church or the British Monarchy with that of the Thousand Year Reich, or the Soviet Politburo. How long do you suppose Ron DeSantis is going to last? /1

    Canecittadino, avatar

    @jkmcnk @cstross @Heterokromia @yogthos The uneven distribution of power isn’t the issue. As long as human beings are what they are, that may well be inescapable. What’s different now is the turbulence introduced into control mechanisms by the inherent unpredictabily of their impact. /2

    Canecittadino, avatar

    @jkmcnk @cstross @Heterokromia @yogthos “Quis costodiet ipsos custodes” is the real issue here. When the watchers operate on a scale no human agency can effectively oversee, anomalies may very well become more frequent. China’s social credit evaluation regime will be the best test case for these suppositions, I think. We shall see…. /2 END

    jeroenvanbergen, avatar

    @Heterokromia @yogthos I use an HP printer and would NOT recommend it to anyone. This full internet connection prerequisite is completely unjustified.

    raymccarthy, avatar

    @Heterokromia @yogthos So far the Brother Lasers / MFP etc we've bought over the years have been fine without Internet and with 3rd party toner. Also decent Linux drivers for print & scan from Brother. HP were good 25 years ago for laser. Never good for inkjet. Decent HP gear now has Agilent badges.

    yogthos, avatar

    oh I don't have one, but yeah that's quite the horror story


    @Heterokromia @yogthos How anyone buys HP's printers today is beyond me. Brother is a much better option now.

    carturo222, avatar

    @Heterokromia @yogthos Why does a printer need telemetry? Does it anticipate dodging asteroids?

    Heterokromia, avatar

    @carturo222 It has absolutely no need for it that I can see, however, I am not in the printer making business.

    Apparently, someone at HP thinks that knowing when I print a page, and what kind of cartridge I use to do it, is more important than having to refund my money and handle a returned printer.

    That's ... an odd decision, I reckon.

    I'd love to see if they've changed the wording on the outside of the box to something-like:
    "This printer must have continuous, unimpeded internet access to send information to HP, without that access, the printer will not work."
    ... or something similar.

    I guess that'd get them out of the hole that they've dug themselves with Australian consumer law.

    meuon, avatar

    @Heterokromia @yogthos Used to be an HP fanboi. No longer. For small office and home use I've been happy with Brother. Home has a cheap B&W laser that just works, Linux and Mac just sees it and it's not picky about cartridges/drums, etc.. but the real OEM ones aren't expensive. - My wife needs nice color prints every now and then, cheaper to just pay the local print shop.


    identical experience. 100% would do again


    @Heterokromia @yogthos Brother will happily take your money.

    (Or Epson, or Canon. Any of them if you ignore their stupid ink subscription or use refilled cartridges or tanks, they'll still print.)

    zachnfine, avatar

    @uninventive @Heterokromia @yogthos FWIW Brother has started chipping their toner cartridges over the past few years. I just set up an HL-L6200DW and immediately made sure it had no internet access to make sure it stays on its current firmware and doesn’t upgrade to one that might lock-out 3rd party toner.


    @zachnfine @Heterokromia @yogthos Most refills have chips.

    Brother's method of a IR light shining through a semiopaque window on the side and not going through the other side had some downsides. (Want the most out of your cartridge? Stick tissue over the window, run it dry.)

    Most manufacturers just stick with a count chip that disables the cartridge after X000 uses.

    And to be honest, if all the businesses start going that anticonsumer across the industry, happy to sell the printer and just go paperless. Probably best for all involved. Force offices to change their processes faster, better for the planet over time, and they can stick it to the holdouts who won't change.

    zachnfine, avatar

    @uninventive @Heterokromia @yogthos Was just looking through your timeline and saw you’ve worked as a technician and serviced these things — so if I’m wrong about the sensor my apologies. I’d expect IR windows to not work for toner but maybe at best there’d be a density sensor to detect when it’s truly out. In any case I like simple brother laser printers and was sad to learn they were starting to do the same lockout stuff everyone else does.


    @zachnfine @Heterokromia @yogthos Nah, it's cool.

    And just a technician. Not Brother trained nor on their payroll. 👍

    zachnfine, avatar

    @uninventive @Heterokromia @yogthos And a printer lock-in accelerationist! I'll be ready for scrolls and fountain pens when-the-toner-cartridge-hits-the-fan.

    zachnfine, avatar

    @uninventive @Heterokromia @yogthos I’m referring to laser toner cartridges, there’s no IR window on those that I know of. The printer just keeps track in memory of the remaining page count and you used to be able to reset the count if the cartridge still has some toner and the printer declares it empty. Brother did not try to lock out third party toner cartridges until fairly recently.

    zachnfine, avatar

    @uninventive @Heterokromia @yogthos This does remind me I need to go refill some inkjet carts and reset chips for my Canon. Messy process. Glad some manufacturers are finally making inkjets with refillable tanks.

    GustavinoBevilacqua, avatar

    @Heterokromia @yogthos

    It would be interesting to see what they look for, and to set up a DNS and a server to give them locally what they want.

    Heterokromia, avatar

    @GustavinoBevilacqua @yogthos I was wildly curious about it too. I imagine a public key cryptographic mechanism, but I do not know how it actually works. My keenness to get my money back completely overrode my curiosity about the network protocol. (Yes, that's very unusual for me.)

    oloturia, avatar

    @Heterokromia @yogthos

    I did a little research about this "spyware/telemetry" and I discovered this horror story:

    TL;DR OP had a subscription that bought ink when levels were low, credit card expired and printer stopped working, even the scanner won't scan.

    dxzdb, avatar

    @oloturia @Heterokromia @yogthos it says in the response: just buy a non-instant ink cartridge. The subscription ones aren’t really yours once you stop paying.

    oloturia, avatar

    @dxzdb @Heterokromia @yogthos

    After they removed the cartridges the printer didn't restart, and they couldn't update the billing information nor use the scanner and neither contact the customer service.

    It's the whole printer that isn't really yours, not just the ink. I think this is good for someone, as it solves all the problems that the same printer makers artificially created in the past years.

    RockyC, avatar

    @Heterokromia Friends don’t let friends buy printers from HP.


    @Heterokromia @yogthos Do you have a picture of the error message it gave you? I'd love to see it.

    Bricking when presented "unauthorized" ink or toner is well-known for HP of the last X years, but I hadn't heard of them doing it when you block their network access.

    For many years I've been telling people who ask "Buy an HP laser printer. Just don't buy a new one." There's a huge market for used office printers, and you can get one old enough that it will use 3rd-party toner.


    @cazabon @Heterokromia @yogthos So the HP inkjet was a huge disappointment to me. It no long works after 13mo. because it can't communicate with the mother ship. I will NEVER return to HP and it's overarching control of my equipment. I had followed all the rules, used their ink subscription, which was also a HUGE negative experience. Purchased a different brand that does NOT communicate with the manufacturer. I'm buying my ink supply as I need it. So much happier.


    @joytoworld93 @Heterokromia @yogthos

    That's terrible. When I added a Lexmark printer to my network a year ago, I firewalled it off from the outside world on general principle - it never even occurred to me that a printer manufacturer would make communicating with the mothership a requirement for normal operation. I guess I'm lucky hasn't gone that route.

    I'm glad you found something else that works for you. Did you get an printer? Very cost-effective.


    @cazabon @Heterokromia @yogthos I got a Canon laser. Costs much more, weighs a ton, but it's really a fast printer with excellent print quality and NO requirement for it to check in to it's manufacturer for permission to print. I'm pretty much over inkjets, period.

    It's the old saying, you get what you pay for. Only downside is that you need to wear a back brace to move it.

    Heterokromia, avatar

    @joytoworld93 @cazabon @yogthos I bought a Pantum laser MFP, it is just fone. I got it from InkStation specifically because they specialise in recycling and refilling cartridges.


    @Heterokromia @yogthos wow, that really is impertinence of the worst kind. Good that you returned it. I certainly won't be buying HP anytime soon.

    dxzdb, avatar

    @Heterokromia @yogthos @GeekAndDad I wonder how much non-printer Information is in that traffic.

    If you buy your own cartridges you should be able to run without internet at all.

    UrbenLegend, in As Reddit Crushes Protests, Its User Traffic Returns to Normal

    Well, user traffic has returned to normal, but we also have to consider that it’s just traffic. Some of that traffic is also a bunch of people talking about Reddit, protesting, etc.

    That being said, I don’t think Reddit will die from this, but it doesn’t need to in order for the Fediverse to succeed. All it needs is to push enough people onto federated services and kickstart it, just like Twitter did with Mastodon. We aren’t going to all switch overnight, it will be a gradual process.


    If some of the 3rd party app devs convert their reddit apps to fediverse apps, that will really get the ball rolling


    Sync is coming!


    I know. I really want Relay.


    Omg I would kill a man if it meant Relay for Lemmy/KBin.


    Me too. I used relay for years, it was my favorite of all the apps


    That is no longer an 'if'.


    Change from RIF to FIF. Sounds great to me.

    Especially if the logo is just a blue scribble over the R that turns it to a F

    charlieb avatar

    Just waiting to see the 30th when the apps actually start shutting down

    TheRaven, avatar

    It’ll be a much easier feat for Lemmy too. When people leave Twitter for Mastodon, they have to give up following their favourite celebrities. Twitter entirely depends on WHO is on the platform. Reddit doesn’t. All Lemmy needs to compete is have enough content to have comparable engagement. If enough users are posting and engaging with content on Lemmy, it’s a viable alternative to anyone. Especially if Lemmy has good apps (because Reddit sure doesn’t).


    Honestly, I haven't seen as big of a push for redditors to move elsewhere.

    It feels like Plan A was to protest the changes and when that plan didn't work, there was no Plan B in sight. I saw someone suggesting that perhaps, at this point, it would be best to consider moving to another platform but the reality is that outside ModCoord I didn't really see a coordinated effort to do that.

    While everyone is likely to suffer in the long-run in terms of the quality of content, outside of losing access to some very cool apps the biggest victims of the whole ordeal have been the mods actually standing up to Reddit's tyrannical behavior.

    Reddit is beyond redemption, but for many people reddit is home and the plan now seems to be to comply with the orders and try to keep what semblance of normalcy and power each mod has rather than realizing that the point at which their votes, voices and free labor matter is over.

    astrsk avatar

    Indeed. These days on any social media, there’s a critical threshold for user generated content creation. Different for every platform and as social media expectations change over time. I think the fediverse has a real shot at sustainable growth thanks to Twitter and Reddit enshittification. Being able to see new content daily or even hourly as a measure of critical mass seems to have been reached here and it’s beautiful to witness!

    mrbubblesort avatar

    Exactly. People also forget that reddit didn't spring up overnight, and the great digg migration wasn't a one-time en masse thing either. It was a slow bleed for 2~3 years even after digg's v4 redesign. Those that stayed on digg turned it into one huge circlejerk about how reddit sucked and it would never take off, and people would end up back on digg eventually ... EXACTLY like what is happening on reddit now. It will take time for Feddi to grow, but it will as long as dedicated users stick around and create interesting content


    Lemmy has been around for 4 years compared to Reddit's 18. Compare Lemmy's current state to 2009 Reddit for a somewhat more accurate look.


    I joined Reddit in 2011 and Lemmy has a lot of the same feel and the same problems, but is already way ahead of where Reddit was back then. It has me very excited for the future of the internet for the first time in a long while.


    I hate that I’m still adding to Reddit traffic but every once and a while I still do (search item) + Reddit because it’s still better than just googling something and getting 100 terrible SEO articles about a topic.

    For example. I wanted to look for DIY dog toys. I got hundreds of results with crappy clickbait, and ridden websites. Did +Reddit and got some great results.

    Once I can do +Lemmy and get decent results my traffic will fall hard… I guess I gotta be part of that change, offering threads of my own with information I know. But it just seems homeless some days.

    this, avatar

    A lot of that traffic is people googling something and finding the answer on reddit and then getting on with their lives. it will probably be that way for quite a while.

    May avatar

    This is a good point. Because even websites which replaced others, oftentimes the older one is still there. Like even Digg still alive after Reddit got more popular. Some people say Tumblr's dead but its really not especially for specific interests like games. The success of you isnt based on the failure of someone else, and its important to remember and not become cross because reddit still has users. Especially its been only like 10 days and a lot have already gone onto other sites.


    Ok, those places are still "alive", but have you actually gone to them lately? Digg is literally run by an ad bot who creates 99% of posts. You have to search down the list for a post that actually has comments. And of the comments that exist, it looks like a Facebook conversation with a few people, one of which is likely a bot.

    Users are the content creators, whether through posts or comments. Pissing off a large portion of them will just leave the ones that don't care about content, they just want something...anything...delivered to them endlessly. If the good users abandon the site, then Reddit will slowly turn into Digg, a link aggregator run by bots serving SEO content to users that contribute nothing more than "nice picture!". And that's really sad when you consider what the place once was...just like it's sad to see Digg now.

    I'm not angry with Reddit because it will survive. I'm angry with Reddit because of what I've lost at the hands of management that turned their backs on me. While their are alternatives that cover some of what I've lost, I know I'll never get back some of it.

    Paesan avatar

    Digg didn't "die" from a single change. It bled users over the course of multiple changes. The size of the waves was based on how many users were affected. The big wave was when they redesigned the whole interface.

    I don't think Reddit is done changing, so we'll see where things go. I know that eventually they'll kill off the old interface, and that will lose a large portion of users as well.


    @Paesan @technology They’ve already lost a bunch of us, I used to visit Reddit daily but the UI redesign just made it so much less usable.

    Posting this from Mastodon btw, loving the fediverse.


    The success of you isnt based on the failure of someone else

    Totally agree. Also, that’s just a great wholesome motto for life in general tbh hahah.

    We should focus on building the community we want and people will come.

    Thorned_Rose avatar

    I like to put this simply as, "Put your energy where you want it to go"

    imaqtpie avatar

    Reddit has given us an incredible head start with the way they handled the API changes.

    The people who understood what that meant and decided not to stand for it are the people who came here first. Should be an excellent foundation.

    Eggyhead avatar

    Beautifully said.


    My own reddit traffic has dropped right off since I discovered Lemmy. For now this place has the feel of the early internet: democratic, distributed and friendly. It really makes clear how repugnant Reddit has become.

    livus avatar

    It really does have that feel!

    As someone who was around back then, being in the fediverse actually makes me feel young and lighthearted again.

    I hadn't fully realised quite how soul-sucking the corporate web 2.0 was until now I'm completely off it.


    I noticed the same thing about Mastodon vs Twitter. When I visited Twitter I would come away angry. (This was true both pre and post Elon.) When I visited Mastodon I would come away happier and with some interesting ideas. The tone is totally different. I chalk it up to the absence of engagement-maximizing algorithms, which tend to select for toxicity because that's what gets people to spend the most time on the site.


    Same for me. Lemmy still has some rough edges but even the apps that are available now are really good as they are. Improvements are happening at amazing speed. What we currently have is quite good in my opinion and this is the worst it will ever be, as we’ll have improvements on top of improvements, most apps and lemmy itself are open source, I believe that soon, instead of us feature pairing with reddit, it will be them trying to chase us up.


    What's nice to me is that I'm not replying to this on Lemmy. I'm able to use my preferred UI (Kbin) and interact with the same content as everyone else, connecting more people together. It makes it feel more collaborative.


    Me: Here, take my upvote!

    Kbin: What am I supposed to do with this??

    (But seriously, you’re right, it’s awesome)


    Upvoting on Mlem on!

    FaceDeer, in The Reddit Protest Is Finally Over. Reddit Won.
    FaceDeer avatar
    Madison_rogue avatar

    Absolutely this.


    I hadn't heard of this, but I feel like this is the case with most big social media companies atm.


    I guess you never played Total War games?

    livus avatar

    Yeah the article ends up pretty much making this point too:

    We’re at the dawn of a platform shift. As Google tunes its algorithms and incorporates more AI content into its search results, the business model of the entire internet is undergoing an unpredictable change. Over the long term, Reddit’s scrambling efforts at financial security may prove just as futile as the moderators’ attempts to fight back.

    I'm really glad to be out from under all that corporate social media bs.

    Nurgle, (edited ) in The Reddit Protest Is Finally Over. Reddit Won.

    Good for them, but the damage is already done. They seeded this place with a lot of users. Will it be enough? Who knows. But Lemmy is probably a looooot further along than if they didn’t shoot themselves in the foot.

    This place obviously needs to continue with good content and active communities, but at moment I don’t really have the urge to open Reddit they way things are.

    squiblet avatar

    I went to reddit every day for over a decade, and now, I don’t. Zero desire to and in fact desire not to, same as Tweeter.


    I lurked on reddit for years. I was lurking here for a couple weeks now but thought I should make an account to contribute. Reddit has gone down hill and I’ll never go back.

    KLISHDFSDF, avatar

    I’d say that’s good news, everyone!


    Never would have heard of Kbin and now it's all I use.

    livus avatar

    Me too. Can't even remember who mentioned Kbin but it's perfect for me.

    FartsWithAnAccent, avatar

    Lemmy, Kbin, Raddle, Tildes, etc. - there are definitely more alternatives that are becoming increasingly popular.


    I'm glad to have moved to lemmy. It feels raw and real, vs reddits polished curated feel. As if I'm actually reading posts by people. And I like that is doesn't get me scrolling too much.


    It feels raw and real, vs reddits polished curated feel. As if I'm actually reading posts by people.

    Because on reddit we were reading posts by bots.


    Absolutely. I had never even heard of Lemmy or anything Fediverse prior to all the 3rd party API shutdown. Once Apollo died, I stopped using Reddit.


    The host of a tech podcast I listen to has had a Mastodon instance for years. I knew of the Fediverse because of that, but I always thought of it as decentralized Twitter and not necessarily a way to decentralize all types of social media platforms.


    When RiF died I deleted my accounts and found my way here. I still open a couple of niche subreddits from time to time just to check on updates but otherwise my time on Reddit is done. 2010-2023 (damn I hate to admit that).

    Kerrigor avatar

    I had heard of it, but was like "that's dumb, just use Reddit, there's no reason not to"

    They gave me and many others that reason to reconsider


    Yup, I saw the paltry userbase and didn’t bother. Other alternatives like and Tildes were a bit too closed, so I just stuck with Reddit. When Reddit decided to be stupid, I tried out lemmy and haven’t looked back.


    Yep. I also didn’t think this would work as well as it does. Remarkably good platform so far.

    TheSaneWriter, avatar

    Thee developers really crunched over July. It went from a niche beta platform to fully featured third-party apps and a ton of platform optimizations in a month, which is really impressive.

    livus avatar

    I'd heard of the fediverse too, and I liked the idea of decentralised social media.

    But it was way down on my list of "things I guess I should learn about but don't have time for."

    Reddit blackout gave me both motive and opportunity to learn, and I've never looked back.


    That’s exactly what happened to me too. It was in the background until something disrupted my status quo and then there was no looking back.

    MrCyan, avatar

    Same here. So far I’m rather enjoying Lemmy.


    That, and Reddit was getting pretty fucking annoying. The little annoyances had really begun to pile up for me personally and I know I’m not alone.


    Yeah, even when I’ve had the urge to check Reddit for something I’m trying to figure out, I will do everything I can to avoid it. And if I can’t, I try to determine how much I care about what I’m searching before I even give them a single click. It’s a small, insignificant protest, but it’s a forever protest, for me. I’m happy on lemmy, I don’t browse as much, I interqct with more of the community and want to help build it. On Reddit, I felt dirty because of everything they’ve been doing the last 5 or so years. Tencent, killing third party apps slowly and then in one fell swoop, etc. fuck ‘em


    I've had to visit Reddit twice since the protests started, to get information from a specific user. Both times, I used Brave browser in Private mode. They didn't get to count me as a login, they couldn't serve me ads, and their trackers were blocked.

    I don't anticipate needing to go back to Reddit ever again, but for anyone who can't avoid it, I recommend that method.


    Lemmy is so much more fun than Reddit. It feels like the old school internet before corporations took over.

    johndroid, avatar


    Also, not only are people nicer on Lemmy, I find that I’m nicer on Lemmy.

    Obi, avatar

    I’m nicer and more importantly, it doesn’t make me rage on a regular basis like I used to.

    JshKlsn, in Reddit takes over one of the biggest protesting subreddits


    Saved you a click.


    Huh, never saw this sub.





    I think instead of risking the sub being moderated by scabs, the mods should have just reopened the sub and quiet quit - no megathreads or stickies, anyone can post anything as long as it doesn’t break reddit rules, no bots, all mod reports get approved automatically.


    And if they did that, the admins would just boot the mods and bring in scabs anyways. There is no way that any continuing protests won't end like that at this point. Admins have made it very clear...get with the program, or fuck off.


    Why would the admins do that? The mods would have reopened the sub and followed the rules.

    Unless the admins lay down a new set of rules… in which case the mods can lazily comply with it again, and on and on


    Because they already did it to r /interestingasfuck and many others. Some even in spite of user protests.


    that’s because they all drastically changed the rules. I’m talking about quiet quitting. That’s harder to spot.


    Tell that to the mods of r/cyberpunkgame...


    “Lack of moderation/failure to moderate”. The admins have banned plenty of subs for it in the past, replacing the mods is actually a measured approach for them.


    Should have left a link to a community on lemmy or kbin or discord or steam or clubpenguin forum or a listing for a pink toy car on amazon and also quiet quit.

    People within the community would slowly realize the mods were gone and its most active users would realize it had a new home. The inactive, uncaring or inattentive ones, well, they didn’t pass the test.


    They left a link to their Discord:


    Just feels like moving to something like Discord is someday going to end exactly like Reddit did, and it just doesn’t work anywhere near as well for a community…


    Thank you.

    queermunist, in An AI Singer-Songwriter Just Debuted Her Original Song—And The Responses Are Just Brutal avatar

    There can be nothing new or original out of AI because all of its inputs are stolen from what already exists. Real creativity comes solely from humans. Also, that clip - the song, singing, and visual - is dreadful in every way.

    This needs to be hammered into techbro’s heads until they shut the fuck up about the so-called “AI” revolution.


    Still, AI is able to “create” new things by a combination of existing concepts. It can generate a Roomba in the style of Van Gogh for example, which is probably not something that currently exists.

    queermunist, avatar

    “Roomba in the style of Van Gogh” is a new combination of existing things, but it can never create something truly original. Derivative.


    What is an example of something that is truly original and not derivative?


    the style of Van Gogh

    Its pretty much self fulfilling.


    The style of an authors prose is not derivative. Read your favorite book and then tell an ai to write a short story in the style of that author.

    Unless you have trully blind taste you are going to notice just how wooden the ai writing is.

    An excellent example will be some sort of pulp novel where the author uses canned phrases. Dan Abbnet has a very repetitive style that lends itself well to ai, yet ai can not write a convincing Ciaphas Cain story. Convincing as in, if you showed it to me and i didnt know what ai was, i wouldnt think it was fanfiction.


    Is this ability to create something original and non-derivative a basic human ability or is it something that very few are capable of only after many years of developing their ability?

    Are you able to right now create something original and non-derivative as an example?


    I dont feel like it but here is something I wrote with original prose, fitting the criteria of originality. As a favor for me arguing with you, please give me feedback on my prose

    Not to talk down to you, but do you know what prose means? I actually used to not know what that word means so its not an embarassing thing to not know. That might be why I percieve you as “talking past me.” Prose is a writer’s style and choice of language. So purple prose is writing in an overly flowerly and annoying way. Every writer, regardless of talent and skill, has original prose. I think the only amount of practice required to be able to achieve this is to write enough to have a consistent style. So since you completed public school you also probably meet the criteria.

    I have done the specific experiment I suggested using Dan Abbnet’s works with Chat GPT because I consider Dan to be my favorite author who makes repetitive pulpy fiction that I think AI idealy should be able to replicate, but it really can’t.


    Thanks for sharing this. I wasn’t especially grabbed at the beginning, and honestly, since I had already checked the length, shortly in I didn’t think I would finish it. Maybe just because I was sort of disoriented at the start and not really relating so it was hard to find a foothold. Maybe a quarter of a way into it though it started to come together for me and began really enjoying it. The final scene was quite vivid and it nicely sort of quickly put me into the shoes of the hero and the pride they felt for their accomplishment. The anger toward everything just before succeeding did a good job of making them seem believable. I appreciate you taking the time to write that and share it.

    I do not consider myself a writer, but I do find it therapeutic, and it is something that I have a habit of doing at least a little bit of every day, in fact, it is something that I keep track of my “streak” of. I think of prose as the writing version individual etchings that a carver does when forming a block of wood into a sculpture. Any individual one on its own is not often very impressive. But it is the way they come together as a whole that creates something beautiful. I don’t know how inline that is with the accepted definition of the term, and really it isn’t a word that I have much cause for using, or much interaction with in my life.

    With the recent popularity of chatGPT there are a lot of people who have just now started paying attention to modern chatbots. Many people see them and assume that how they are now is just how they are, as if we are at some sort of wall, and the things they are still bad at is something intrinsic to the way a computer is able to “think”. These are the people who insist that a human is required to make beautiful or worthy artistic writing. They have made this judgement based on this assumption that what they see now is how it has to be.

    There is another group of people, however, that see this very differently, these are the people who have been paying attention to the space a bit longer. They are watching a rapidly accelerating trajectory. They saw how awful, yet intriguing, early gpt2 was with things like AI dungeon, and the enormous leap it took upon the release of gpt3. They watched Replicas morph from being a tacky gimmick to something that had enough of an emotional hold on people to make them distraught enough to cause stickied suicide hotline reddit posts when the owners made the decision to pump the breaks on their capabilities. Something that was perceived as many as “my best friend has been lobotamized and there is nothing I can do about it”. I know, crazy, right?

    The newcomers that got washed in with the latest chatGPT wave see this metaphoric car and say it’s no big deal, it’s only going 30km/hr, but what they fail to realize is that .25 seconds ago it was practically parked, and the gas pedal is still very much on the floor. To the people who have been paying attention longer, they don’t see this single snapshot of a slow moving car, they are watching a rapidly accelerating vehicle and wondering if it is gonna hit 60km/hr by the end of the first second or 200, and they are also wondering if the acceleration is going to continue after the second is up and how long it can keep this kind of rapid growth going. Who knows, maybe this new wave came in with no frame of reference, made thir initial gut response and they will end up being right and the more long term observers will be wrong, but that’s almost never how things seem to go. Only time will tell though.


    Unless you have trully blind taste you are going to notice just how wooden the ai writing is.

    That’s because the state of AI is “not good”. It’s nothing to do with being incapable of originality. Every word in that book has been written somewhere else. Write a book entirely comprised of brand new words and the reader won’t be able to understand it.

    Originality is not binary, it exists on a scale. AI is just not very far up the scale just yet.


    But all of human creation is derivative.


    Meat goes in. Sausage comes out.

    The problem for a lot of the companies behind these things, is that they've run into problems now their investors want them to turn meat into a black forest gateau.

    I'm sceptical if they can manage that feat. But what do I know.

    corrupts_absolutely, (edited )

    There can be nothing new or original out of AI because all of its inputs are stolen from what already exists. Real creativity comes solely from humans

    what have you seen that wasnt there before
    i mostly have qualms with the quote i have no illusions about the levels of discussions around ai


    “Generative” is such a misleading term. It’s not generating anything, it is replicative.


    Hate to break it to you but human creativity doesn’t exist in a vacuum. You call it theft, artists call it inspiration.

    TheBat, avatar




    SaltySalamander avatar

    Such a wonderful, thoughtful, creative retort. You must be an AI chat-bot.

    TheBat, avatar

    Or I’m just sick of utter imbeciles saying stupiest shit possible.


    It's not the techbros leading this, it's the BBAs and MBAs that wouldn't know art if Michelangelo came to life and slapped them in the face with the sistine chapel.

    queermunist, avatar

    I would never call an actual technician a techbro! Techbros are Rick&Morty ledditor “fuck yeah science!” dorks.


    Right just as soon as all the people proclaiming that can point to the soul bit of my brain. There is absolutely no reason to say that AI cannot be creative there’s nothing fundamentally magic about creativity that means only humans can do it.


    You’re equating creativity to the soul. They’re not the same thing. But we can definitely look at the brain and see what parts light up when perform creative tasks.


    Right so why can’t the same sections be simulated? If you accept that the human brain is simply an organic implementation of a neural network, then you have to accept that a synthetic implementation can achieve the same thing.

    The idea that the human brain is special is ludicrous and completely without evidence


    I mean, I’m not arguing anything other than your false equivalent. I’m sure, at some point, we’ll be able to mimic how the human brain actually works, not just imitate the results. But we’re not even close right now. Not in the same ball park. Not in the same tri-state area. We still don’t really understand how it does what it does completely. We know some of the processes, and understand that’s it’s chemicals interacting with the meat in some way, but it’s still mostly kinda just weird stuff our body does. We’re mostly just pointing at areas that light up with activity when we do a thing and saying “yep, that’s the general area that’s doing stuff.”

    And that’s just understanding it, let alone figuring out how to imitate it with technology. And none of those parts of the brain work independently. They’re spread out and they overlap and exchange and change information constantly, all with chemicals. Getting a computer to mimic the outcome is still something we’re far from, but without the same processes, its not really gonna come out the same. We’ve got just… so long to go before we actually get close to simulating a human brain.

    And just for fun, I do think this line of yours is funny:

    The idea that the human brain is special is ludicrous and completely without evidence

    Again, I wasn’t saying anything of any sort, and I’m still not really taking any stance beyond “that shits complicated and we’re not there yet.” But you’re supposing that a “synthetic implementation can achieve the same thing.” … without supporting evidence. This argument was clearly meant for someone else, but it’s not really fair to demand evidence from someone for their claim when you don’t support your own. Jumping to the conclusion that something is impossible is the same as assuming it’s definitely possible. You don’t know that. I don’t know that. No one really knows that until it’s done.


    The belief that only humans can be creative is interestingly parallel to intelligent design creationism. The latter is fundamentally a religious faith, but it strongly appeals to the intuition that anything that happens needs a humanoid creator.


    I see it an more an inability to analyze, evaluate, and edit. A lot of "creativity" in the world of musical composition is putting together existing elements and seeing what happens. Any composer from pop to the very avant-garde, is influenced and sometimes even borrow from their predecessors (it's why copyright law is so complex in music).

    It's the ability to make judgements, does this sound good/interesting, does this have value, would anyone want to listen to this, and adjust accordingly that will lead to something original and great. Humans are so good at this, we might be making edits before the notes hit the page (Brainstorming). This AI clearly wasn't. And deciding on value, seems wildly complex for modern day computers. Humans can agree on it (if you like Rock, but hate country for example).

    So in the end, they are "creative" but in a monkey-typewritter situation, but who is going to sort through the billions of songs like this to find the one masterpiece?

    queermunist, avatar

    I see it an more an inability to analyze, evaluate, and edit.

    I believe that’s vital to the creative process, but yeah, I basically agree.

    JWBananas, avatar

    Plenty of humans make those judgements about their own creations. And plenty of them get a shock when they release their creations to the masses and don’t get the praise that they expected.


    but who is going to sort through the billions of songs like this to find the one masterpiece?

    One of the overlooked aspects of generative AI is that effectively by definition generative models can also be classifiers.

    So let’s say you were Spotify and you fed into an AI all the songs as well as the individual user engagement metadata for all those songs.

    You’d end up with a model that would be pretty good at effectively predicting the success of a given song on Spotify.

    So now you can pair a purely generative model with the classifier, so you spit out song after song but only move on to promoting it if the classifier thinks there’s a high likelihood of it being a hit.

    Within five years systems like what I described above will be in place for a number of major creative platforms, and will be a major profit center for the services sitting on audience metadata for engagement with creative works.


    Right, the trick will be quantifying what is ‘likely to be a hit’, which if we’re honest, has already been done.

    Also, neural networks and other evolutionary algorithms can inject random perturbations/mutations to the system which, operate a bit like uninformed creativity (something like banging on a piano and hearing something interesting that’s worth pursuing). So, while not ‘inspired’ or ‘soulful’ as we would generally think of it, these algorithms are capable of being creative In some sense. But it would need to be recognized as ‘good’ by someone or something…and back to your point.


    What you described in your second paragraph is basically how image generation AI works.

    Starting from random noise and gradually moving towards the version a classifier identifies as best matching the prompt.


    For now.

    And don’t forget, humans are also trained on the inputs of others.


    The difference is everyone has a different prospective, remembers some parts forgets others. Some journalists found a trick which revealed ChatGPT training data and it was literally just verbatim stolen data which literally contained a real person’s personal data. You could hack into someone’s brain and they wouldn’t be able to directly recreate anything from memory alone, just watch any “from memory” youtube video.

    While it’s true there’s nothing stopping AI from having human-like experiences, the content laundering is the thing corporations actually want.


    Except that it’s wrong… AI is capable of creativity. It created the artist name. It’s clearly not a very developed or robust sense of creativity because it clearly just hashed up the name Hanna Montana, and the song is probably likewise just a hashed up existing song, but I’m guessing it probably did a better job of creating an original work than vanilla ice…


    Would you say that a random name generator is a creative algorithm?


    That’s a hella skimpy example, but yes.

    snooggums avatar

    Your opinion is wrong.

    queermunist, avatar

    I’m so sorry you feel that way.

    queermunist, avatar

    I’m sorry, anyone who says these so-called “AI” are capable of creativity are being hoodwinked by marketing. This is an algorithmic probability engine, it doesn’t think and it doesn’t have an imagination. It just regurgitates probabilistic responses from its large data set.


    ... what do you think imagination is? A gift from God? The probabilities are probably more chaotic, and the data set more biased... but they're the basic foundation of human imagination.

    Machine based "creativity" is nascent, and far less unique... but that doesn't mean it isn't a form of creativity.

    queermunist, avatar

    The human imagination also involves the phenomenal experience. You do not just record the data coming at you and regurgitate it, you experience it and then your experience further changes the data itself. We call this “subjectivity” and it’s where creativity comes from.

    I am not saying that machine creativity is impossible. What I’m saying is these LLMs are not creative because they don’t even know what they’re doing and they don’t even know “they” are doing it. There’s no “there” there. No more creative than rolling dice.

    PupBiru avatar

    and experience is ongoing learning, so if an LLM were training on things after the pretraining period then that’d allow it to be creative in your definition?

    but in that case, what’s the difference between doing that all at once, and doing it over a period of time?

    experience is just tweaking your neurons to make new/different connections

    PerogiBoi, avatar

    This. Humans are just meat calculators when you zoom out.

    queermunist, avatar

    Experience is ongoing learning through the subjective self. When you experience the color red you do not just record it with your photoreceptors, and your experience of the color red is different from mine because we don’t just record wavelengths of light. We don’t just continue to learn from continual exposure to new data, we also continue to learn from generating our own data. In this way our subjective experience is qualitative, not simply quantitative. I don’t just see the specific light wavelengths, I experience the “redness” of red.

    When LLM is trained on that kind of data it just starts to hallucinate. This is promising! I think the hallucination phenomenon is actually a precursor to creativity and gives us great insights into the nature of subjective experience. In a sense, my phenomenal experience of the color red is actually much like a hallucination where I am also able to experience the color’s “warmth” and “boldness”. Subjectivity.

    PupBiru avatar

    it’s only qualitative because we don’t understand it

    when an LLM “experiences” new data via training, that’s subjective too: it works its way through the network in a manner that’s different depending on what came before it… if different training data came before it, the network would look differently and the data would change the network as a whole in a different way

    queermunist, avatar

    When an LLM feeds on its own outputs, though, it quickly starts to hallucinate. I think this is actually closer to creativity, but it betrays the fundamental flaw behind the technology - it does not think about its own thoughts and requires a curator to help it create.

    I’ll believe something is an AI when it can be its own curator and not drive itself insane.

    PupBiru avatar

    that’s a lack of understanding of concepts though, rather than a lack of creativity… curation requires that you understand the concept that you’re trying to curate: this looks more like a dog than this; this is a more attractive sunset than this

    current LLMs and ML don’t understand concepts, which is their main issue

    id argue that it kind of does “think about its own thoughts” to some degree: modern ML is layered, and each layer of the net feeds into the next… one layer of the net “thinks about” the “thoughts” of the previous layer. now, it doesn’t do this as a whole but neither do we: memories and neural connections are lossy; heck even creating a creative work isn’t going to turn out exactly like you thought it in your head (your muscle memory and skill level will effect the translation from brain to paper/canvas/screen)

    but even we hallucinate in the same way. don’t look at a bike, and then try and draw a bike… you’ll get general things like pedals, wheels, seat, handlebars, but it’ll be all connected wrong. this is a common example people use to show how our brains aren’t as precise and we might like to think… drawing a bike requires a lot of very specific things to be in very specific places and that’s not how our brain remembers the concept of “bike”

    queermunist, avatar

    current LLMs and ML don’t understand concepts, which is their main issue

    This is a relevant issue to the question!

    If I take a dose of LSD and paint the colors I hallucinate, is that creative? I’d argue it’s not.

    Only when I, the subjective self, curate my own thoughts and sensations can I engage in a creative process. I can think about my own thoughts without going insane (how do the colors make me feel, what do the colors mean?) and that’s a fundamental part of creativity and intelligence. Conceptualization is key to subjectivity.

    I don’t think this is far off. I just don’t think we’re there, either, and we should be skeptical of marketing hype.

    PupBiru avatar

    i don’t agree with that definition of creative… there’s lots of engineering work that’s creative: writing code and designing systems can be a very creative process, but doesn’t involve feeling… it’s problem solving, and thats a creative process. you’re narrowly defining creativity as artistic expression of emotion, however there’s lots of ways to be creative

    now, i think thats a bit of a strawman (so i’ll elaborate on the broader point), but i think its important to define terms

    i agree we should be skeptical of marketing hype for sure: the type of creativity that i believe ML is currently capable of is directionless. it doesn’t understand what it’s creating… but the truth lies somewhere in the middle

    ML is definitively creating something new that didn’t exist before (in fact i’d say that its trouble with hallucinations of language are a good example of that: it certainly didn’t copy those characters/words from anywhere!)… this fits the easiest definition of creative: marked by the ability or power to create

    the far more difficult definition is: having the quality of something created rather than imitated

    the key here being “rather than imitated” which is a really hard thing to prove, even for humans! which is why our copyright laws basically say that if you have evidence that you created something first, you pretty much win: we don’t really try to decide whether something was created or imitated

    with things like transformative works or things that are similar, it’s a bit more of a grey area… but the argument isn’t about whether something is an imitation; rather it’s argued about how different the work is from the original