There are more women with incel beliefs than men and nobody cares/labels them

I have so many friends who would 100% be labeled as an incel if they were men. They hold men to impossibly high standards while meeting none of those standards themselves.

For example, women living with parents while expecting men to have their own place, women who are obese but are only interested in fit men, working part time while expecting a man who has a career, refusing to drive and expecting men to chauffeur them around, expecting men to have a variety of friends and interests while doing nothing but watching TV all day, etc.

The worst part is, calling out this inequality will 100% get any man labeled as an incel. We’re expected to either deal with it or be alone forever.

This is NOT to undermine the very real issues women have to deal with, for example the loss of bodily autonomy in the US. But this is still an issue worth discussing and nobody is talking about it.

Gigan,
@Gigan@lemmy.world avatar

The term “incel” was actually created by a woman and she was referring to herself. I guess social media and/or MSM liked it more as a derogatory term for men. But women can definitely fall into the same toxic mentality that men can.

AbsoluteChicagoDog,

It’s generally safer to hate on men it seems

some_guy,

Men are more likely to commit acts of violence, so…

I’m a man, for context. I despise violence.

bioemerl,

"despite making up thirteen percent of the population...."

assaultpotato,

That’s immaterial to the statement you’re replying to - Women are more likely to cheat in relationships, so I guess it’s fair game now?

some_guy,

How the fuck does cheating compare to violence? If women incels talk shit and men incels shoot people, one is clearly worse than the other. I have no stats to back this up because I’m not terribly interested in this topic. However, I do defend my position that men are more likely to commit violence based on my own passive observations of news articles / headlines.

assaultpotato,

You’re batting 1 for 4 in sentences there bud.

How the fuck does cheating compare to violence?

Where did I say that?

If women incels talk shit and men incels shoot people, one is clearly worse than the other.

Yeah I agree, but that doesn’t mean that either are relevant to the conversation.

I have no stats to back this up because I’m not terribly interested in this topic

Your apathy is apparent.

However, I do defend my position that men are more likely to commit violence based on my own passive observations of news articles / headlines.

Correct, men are more likely to commit acts of violence. Would love to know where I disagreed with this.

Let me give you a quick recap of the thread so far:

  1. “incel” was invented by a woman for herself
  2. it’s safer to say negative things about men
  3. men commit more acts of violence, so that’s fair
  4. those two things (2 and 3) are unrelated, I can cherry pick some immoral statistic where women are worse than men, so using “immorality” as an argument is not material to the discussion
  5. yeah but men commit more violence. Also, I don’t care about this at all which is why I instantly became disrespectful and started swearing.

You see the problem here? Black people in the US commit more acts of violence than white people in the US. That doesn’t mean we should use that as justification for being needlessly derogatory towards Black people. Also, you should probably reflect on that whole “I don’t care about this” thing. Have a good one, I’m muting replies.

cRazi_man,

Derogatory term? I thought people who considered themselves painfully involuntary celibate used it as a self descriptor and formed harmless communities initially. It has now become affiliated with an extreme ideology a certain violent offshoot that has overtaken the use of the term.

Moira_Mayhem,

alt-right 4chan shitdicks co-opted ‘incel’ and ruined a lot of actually supportive communities with their BS, just like every other fucking thing they co-op.

RBWells,

Having taken some time to consider this, I do think it’s both unpopular and wrong.

Yes, some women have ridiculous standards that make no sense, as do some men. I do agree women may be more likely to have hypocritical standards, because (at least for casual relationships) men do seem to have fewer standards.

But that doesn’t mean they are involuntarily celibate. It means they are voluntarily celibate. They aren’t saying that guys/women they want are rejecting them, they are saying they have standards that can’t be met.

Treczoks,

expecting men to have a variety of friends and interests while doing nothing but watching TV all day

Those are the worst, they hope to catch a man that they can pull down to their level.

Overarch3784,
Overarch3784 avatar

Well, I don't read that the woman you know hate men and constantly complain about them not living up to their standards. So I guess there are some steps missing to an Incel. Right now it just seems they have, although very specific, standards on who they wan't to date. If that's not realistic it's their problem and they have to deal with it.

By the way, I'm pretty out of the loop on this Incel thing. I try to keep out of the social media circles who constantly blame the other gender for the things they should do better or have done. Generalizations help nobody

catreadingabook, (edited )
catreadingabook avatar

I think the discussion would be clearer if you defined what you think incel beliefs are? The typical description I know of is, "Members of my preferred gender refuse to have sex with me because there is something wrong with them, and it's their fault that I'm lonely." It looks like here the assumed definition is, "I'm happy being alone unless someone extremely desirable comes along," which imo is the opposite of incel behavior.

The reason you are getting called an incel here is likely because, by characterizing the latter opinion as something wrong with "so many" women when it is merely a lack of interest in dating most men, you start to come dangerously close to expressing the former opinion yourself.

AbsoluteChicagoDog,

An incel believes they are owed sex/love without putting effort in themselves

catreadingabook, (edited )
catreadingabook avatar

That isn't the defining characteristic, though [ETA: under the conventional understanding of the word, at least - apologies for appearing to ask you for clarification only to then argue with you about it]. There is already a word for that and it's called entitlement. What distinguishes an incel is the added belief that there is something wrong with people who have romantic or sexual preferences that the incel disagrees with (as long as the preference is limited to consenting adults).

Personally my main gripe is with the implication that a person, who simply wants someone with traits that the person doesn't have him/herself, is therefore entitled in a way that puts them in the wrong. To hopefully illustrate why that's weird: I tend to be romantically interested in those bleeding-heart optimist types even though my own philosophy is relatively pragmatic. I admire that characteristic in others but have no intention of adopting it myself. It isn't obvious that this fact, on its own, makes me an incel, even if optimism is more rare, desirable, or difficult to maintain.

harmonea,
harmonea avatar

Are there some women who have higher standards than they, themselves, live up to - sure. But that's not what makes an incel.

An incel is someone who believes:

  1. People of my preferred gender kind of suck, mostly
  2. Despite mostly sucking, people of my preferred gender tend to have high standards <-- you are here
  3. Those high standards exclude me, and I think that's unfair; it makes me angry that they won't give me the chance I deserve.
  4. I'm tired of playing nice when none of them will give me the chance I deserve. I've written their entire gender off as trash, and my new hobby is constantly berating them.

People rarely say #3 and #4 out loud, so once you're at #2 -- which you are -- people are going to start making some assumptions.

And yes, there are some women past #3 and #4 themselves, sure. We've all heard the occasional "men are pigs," and that kind of intolerance shouldn't be accepted no matter who it comes from. But it's absolutely not many/most of us, and if you think so, you're either being overly critical or surrounding yourself with the wrong kinds of friends - both of which are on you and show you need to de-incel your thinking before you go off the deep end.

AbsoluteChicagoDog,

This actually worries me a little because I don’t disagree with all of those points. #1 I think most people suck regardless of gender. #2 yes I think women tend to have higher standards than men even when it’s unfair. #3 I don’t think I deserve other people’s time but it does frustrate me how difficult it is just to find a woman willing to talk to me. Tinder sucks for men and hitting on women in public is creepy. #4 not at all.

FoundTheVegan,
FoundTheVegan avatar

Sweetie. Honey. Dear...

calling out this inequality will 100% get any man labeled as an incel. We’re expected to either deal with it or be alone forever.

There is a reason you keep hearing this phrase, this entire line of thinking is incely as heck. Having standards is not an incel trait, but being angry at women and thinking you are "forever alone" because of those standards sure as heck is! You are making a giant stra-woman just so you can be angry at it. People can have whatever standards they like and their "hypocrisy" is not your concern, but being upset at those standards is just wishing women would settle for less.

For example, women living with parents while expecting men to have their own place, women who are obese but are only interested in fit men, working part time while expecting a man who has a career, refusing to drive and expecting men to chauffeur them around, expecting men to have a variety of friends and interests while doing nothing but watching TV all day, etc.

Acknowledging the right to bodily autonomy doesn't automatically make you a feminist. Thinking women want to be chauffeured around, waited on, contribute nothing and be obese is boiler plate misogyny. This post sounds like it was wrote in the 50's, back in the good 'ole days before women wanted too much!

AbsoluteChicagoDog,

You are assuming my opinions are not based on my experiences with women. You are incorrect.

520,

Is that really your experience with women though?

To ask the question more precisely, is this really what women are thinking, or are you taking everything at face value? Because with social interactions, there is always something unsaid also going on.

A lot of these women with hard rules will overlook them when dealing with someone they're genuinely attracted to, and the rules for that are almost never hard and fast. Generally, it happens when they develop really strong positive associations with someone, like they're fun, they're exciting, they're good listeners, etc.

The rules are arbitrary. The real filter is how you make people feel.

FoundTheVegan, (edited )
FoundTheVegan avatar

Well, A) You already said this is based on people you know....

I have so many friends who would 100% be labeled as an incel if they were men

And B) If not that, then what are they based on? What other people say? Because you need to consider those biases when you take those opinions as your own. Label yourself however you like, but the thoughts in your post was that of an incel. Blame it on others if you wish, but you were the one who posted it. You are the one repeating it. You are the one saying and thinking these things.

You didn't respond to anything I was saying, just labeled it as wrong. Feels more like a defense mechanism than actual engagement. You are the one who brought these ideas here today. You're right that I don't know you, but what metric am I supposed to understand your ideas other than engage with the things you choose to write/say?

BraveSirZaphod,
BraveSirZaphod avatar

Well, I'll give it to you. This is actually a suitable post for this community.

Album,
@Album@lemmy.ca avatar

while expecting a man who has a career, refusing to drive and expecting men to chauffeur them around, expecting men to have a variety of friends and interests while doing nothing but watching TV all day, etc.

This is the most incel thing i’ve read in a while. I don’t know a single woman like this. If you do, you’re hanging around with the wrong crowd and that’s on you. If you don’t then you’re just eating up incel bullshit to feel better about your own lackings.

captainlezbian,

Yeah I’m a woman who dates women and the closest thing I’ve ever seen to that with even a little frequency is disabled women and stay at home moms who try to get out and spend basically all day in household labor. And honestly they’ve all had reasonable standards for partners.

Like I’m sure some women like this exist, and I’ve seen FDS over on Reddit. But just don’t date them. The FDS folks are frequently mocked and condemned. And I think their expectations of partners are ludicrous and that they have a lot of the same beliefs as incels, but they aren’t complaining about no men wanting to fuck them last I saw, mostly they were talking about how women need their insane standards and shouldn’t date without them. Which like, whatever if that’s what it takes for a relationship with you have fun, it sure sounds like you don’t actually want a relationship though, just money and status.

Incels were a joke until they started spreading far right bullshit and raping and shooting people. FDS is a joke now, if they break containment or start engaging in mass shootings then we can start comparing them.

AbsoluteChicagoDog,

I’ve never needed an abortion, does that mean I should disregard other people’s experiences and not want them to have access to abortions?

It may shock you to learn this. But different people have different experiences. And just because you personally haven’t experienced something doesn’t mean it’s not real.

Album,
@Album@lemmy.ca avatar

How are those things even remotely comparable?

Are you saying that by my identification of your general attitude towards women - generalizing them all as do-nothing, expect everything - somehow is the same as denying that people need abortions?

The problem with incels is their lack of self introspection and the assignment of all their problems to an external cause - a small percentage of society with unrealistically high standards - which is not something even specific to women.

A well adjusted person just thinks - “Gee i don’t want to associate with that type of person and I understand that it’s a small subset of the total population of women. Let me work towards finding women who have realistic expectations which is the majority while simultaneously looking at myself to understand why women with realistic expectations might still not be interested in me”

Vs the incel who gets on the internet to rage that all women are staceys and are only interested in chads. The problem isn’t me it’s everyone else!

ElleChaise,

your general attitude towards women - generalizing them all as do-nothing, expect everything -

Album, breathe. You're the only one who's making this post about that. What you're doing is exactly like when incels get mad and brigade the feminist forums to say "not all men".

Album,
@Album@lemmy.ca avatar

For example, women living with parents while expecting men to have their own place, women who are obese but are only interested in fit men, working part time while expecting a man who has a career, refusing to drive and expecting men to chauffeur them around, expecting men to have a variety of friends and interests while doing nothing but watching TV all day, etc.

OP’s words verbatim.

unoriginalsin,

The worst part is, calling out this inequality will 100% get any man labeled as an incel. We’re expected to either deal with it or be alone forever.

There’s a reason your “opinion” is being labeled as that of an incel. It’s because it’s 100% Pure Grade A Incel Bullshit^tm

systemglitch,

I think you just confirmed what he said and not how you think you did. lol

unoriginalsin,

What he said was stupid incel bullshit. “Proving” it is meaningless. If course an incel will think he’ll get called an incel for spring stupid incel bullshit. That’s literally what an incel is.

What’s next? Red paint is red?

sailingbythelee,

Harsh

AbsoluteChicagoDog,

Thanks for proving my point.

unoriginalsin,

You can have it. Your point is stupid. All you’ve done is act like an incel and claim that people will call you an incel for it. Congratulations. Will your next “unpopular opinion” be that water is wet?

Album,
@Album@lemmy.ca avatar

“Women have unrealistic standards” is essentially the incel ethos for existence. OP is just one sentence short of calling them “Stacey”.

VulKendov,
@VulKendov@reddthat.com avatar

Simply having impossible, hypocritical standards does not make an incel.

AbsoluteChicagoDog,

I 100% guarantee if I had those standards I would be labeled an incel. You’re just flat wrong.

BruceTwarzen,

I'm dating a girl right now, and we talked a bit about ex partners and whatever. At some point ahe said she was dating a guy with a actual micro penis and how he was useless to her. She kinda expected me to laugh there but i just felt bad for the guy. She also told me that she likes about me that i'm really handy, she would never date a guy that works on a computer and couldn't fix (her) stuff. I just said that's a pretty weird thing to say. But when i thought about it later i realised how weird that is. She specifically said that "that kind of man would be useless to her."
Never in my life have i even thought something like: "what does this woman bring to the table? She's cute but she's a bartender. That's not very useful."
The thing that i have learned from online dating the past few years is that women get away with way more than men because they can. This is not some incel manifesto, i don't hate women at all, i always liked hanging out with women more than men, and if i'd get away with the shit they could, i probably would.

Nollij,

While you certainly have a point, I think that approach is one-sided. We, as a society, absolutely have similar expectations of women. It’s shallow of her (and a bit odd to hear someone admit to) to be so dismissive of her ex’s penis, but we absolutely dismiss the value of women that have small tits or ass, or their lack of willingness to do certain sexual acts. You wouldn’t dismiss a cute bartender for being useless, but you would absolutely dismiss a bar-owner (and thus, very useful) for being ugly.

HelixDab2,

See, no one would give a shit about incels if they quietly kept to themselves.

Unfortunately, incels tend to commit and encourage rape and murder.

Are the women you know murdering or raping men?

No?

Then it’s a them problem.

FMT99,

I’ve seen actual femcel communities on Reddit and they certainly don’t keep quietly to themselves. But whether there are more of them or if they are equally violent… No idea. Don’t really want to compare or know more to be honest.

HelixDab2,

They are not as violent, no. The raw numbers speak for themselves; the overwhelming majority of murders are committed by men. The overwhelming majority of men that are sexually assaulted are sexually assaulted by men. There are certainly women that complain about men, and say that ‘all men want it’, and such. But the raw numbers of women that commit murders or sexually assault men, are very low.

520,

Okay, but there's 'not keeping quietly to thenselves' and then there's the litany of literal crimes that male incels are known for.

AbsoluteChicagoDog,

I don’t know anyone who has raped or murdered, men or women. Do you have a source for your claim?

HelixDab2,

Source one

Source two

Source three

Seriously, try harder.

AbsoluteChicagoDog, (edited )

So a dozen attacks? Not really the mass scale violence you claimed is it? Seriously, try harder.

HelixDab2,

Ooooh, nice moving of the goalposts! First, it hasn’t happened, and then when I give you three results from a quick Google search, now it’s not on a mass scale.

Oh, but here’s a report from the US Secret Service about the growing security threat from incel men.

“Women are the real incels!” Huh. And I guess that goes right along with, “Antifa are the real fascists!”.

But here’s a better question: what evidence would you accept?

AbsoluteChicagoDog,

If by “moving the goalposts” you mean holding you to your original claim then sure I guess

HelixDab2,

I said, “Unfortunately, incels tend to commit and encourage rape and murder.”

You said:

I don’t know anyone who has raped or murdered, men or women. Do you have a source for your claim?

I provided three sources from a very brief Google search for “incel murder”; they were literally the top 3 results for me. So know you know of at least 3 incels that have committed mass shootings and/or mass murder due explicitly to their ideology. You then moved the goal posts by claiming that it wasn’t on a mass scale. And yet, all three of the cases I cited were people that committed mass shootings, so I’m not sure what you mean by “mass scale”; do you meant that every person that’s been black-pilled needs to be committing mass murders before you will agree that it’s a problem? What percentage of people need to commit murders, or attempt to, based on incel beliefs, before you would agree that male incels are a bigger problem than femcels are?

So, again: what evidence will you accept?

520,

Elliot Rodgers
Jake Davison
Unnamed Toronto mass murderer
All of these from Wikipedia

AbsoluteChicagoDog,

So a dozen incidents? Not exactly the constant attacks you claimed exist

520,

A dozen high profile incidents. Mass shootings and the like. There are many, many more that outright go unreported, often because they don't look that different from standard DV cases, of which there are simply too many to put in the news.

AbsoluteChicagoDog,

I’m not defending the monsters that commit these acts. But again you’re making claims about the motivation for these crimes without a source.

520,

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/26/large-rise-in-men-referred-to-prevent-over-women-hating-incel-ideology

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/30/global-incel-culture-terrorism-misogyny-violent-action-forums

https://www.mccaininstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/incel-and-misogynist-violent-extremism-read-ahead-materials-august-2.pdf

Here are some sources

Outtatime,
@Outtatime@sh.itjust.works avatar

You were doing good until you threw that last paragraph in there.

hypnicjerk,

gb2/b/

AbsoluteChicagoDog,

Fuck off

Outtatime,
@Outtatime@sh.itjust.works avatar

Ok

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