Of course it would have been impossible. One in four climbers on K2 does not make it back. This is a non-story, as tragic as the loss of life may be. 25% mortality rate. You have better odds rolling a die for your life. Punintended.
(I’m not saying they shouldn’t have stopped to help; only that the likelihood of him surviving was near-zero.)
DEATHS ON K2
K2 is considered one of the most difficult climbs. For every four climbers attempting to summit K2, one climber dies. In comparison one in every 20 attempting to climb Mount Everest dies. As of June 2018, only 367 people have completed the ascent of K2 and 86 had died trying. As of 1995 113 people reached the summit of K2 and 48 died. In 1995 seven people were killed in brutal storm that raged for nine days. Thirty kilometers away a rock climber froze to death in a hanging tent. In August 2008, eleven climbers died over two days (See Below), In a 1953 attempt, Art Gilkey was killed, either in an avalanche or in a deliberate attempt to avoid burdening his companions.
If it somehow guaranteed your success it would be safer to play a round of russian roulette at the base camp before you begin your climb as that has only one in six chance of killing you. That's how crazy your odds of success on the climb sound like.
Yet they all know the statistics and the risks, and go do it anyway. Are they mental, suicidal, or do they truly believe they are so awesome and everyone who died clearly was their inferior?
Also I can understand taking that risk for yourself. Certainly it's way outside my comfort zone, but I'm not going to tell someone else they can't do something dangerous. But how can you go out and hire people to help you knowing there's a 25% chance they'll be giving their lives for you?
Yes, that's obviously taking the lifetime K2 deaths and dividing by the summit attempts - though actually I get 19% in that situation. However we really dont have enough data to form a good confidence interval there - it's possible we've had a lucky few years or maybe we've got better at deciding when to make the summit attempts.
But it doesn't really change my point. There's some threshold where it seems fundamentally immoral to hire someone for a job that has a good chance of killing them. Mountain porter on k2 or everest is a higher risk job than "astronaut" without the same glory that comes with the space faring job title. Even if the chance of death is 1 in 200, I still think its immoral to take advantage of someone who's so desperate for work that they'll overlook it.
Definitely. I may not agree with your stats but I agree that it's immoral to take advantage of people's poverty - in this case he was motivated by his mother's medical bills - to make them risk their lives, especially given it's in order to help do a recreational activity that has no use.
wouldn’t it be cool if the took all the drive and energy they have for climbing a rock into making a world where people don’t have to hire out and risk their lives just to feed their family?
I think it would be better if everyone climbing a mountain does so out of their own free will and because they want to, and not out of financial necessity.
But that is something for the local governments to fix and not the responsibility of mountaineers.
But most mountaineers get by without having to hire people to carry their shit for them. Certainly people here in Colorado use guides from time to time, but i've never heard of anyone using a porter. Maybe i'm ignorant, but it seems like mountaineers only use porters in the himalayas because they are cheap and disposable.
Perhaps if you can't summit a mountain without another human to carry your equipment then it should be ok to not summit that mountain.
If we’re talking about high altitude peaks, like the 14 peaks, most people that summit do it “expediation style”, which always includes sherpas and porters. Only very few people have accomplished climbing one of the 14 peaks “alpine style”.
Thanks for the terminology - that makes it easier!
Only very few people have accomplished climbing one of the 14 peaks “alpine style”.
I'm quite ok with that.
If the rockies were 28k instead of 14k then I still don't think there'd be a situation where we hire poor villagers from the outskirts of Denver to put their lives on the line. I really believe the high peaks are summited expedition-style because the poverty makes that practical, which in turn allows many more people to reach the top
But climbing with an expedition is much more safe. There is nothing wrong with that inherently.
The real porblem starts when mountaineering just becomes a sick kind of tourism. Where people that are totally unprepared hire companies that will figurativly just carry you up a mountain like everest. I mean idiots like this..
I think I take more exception with the uneven make-up of the expedition team. If 4 americans want to form a expedition to summit K2 then I applaud that, all of them are committed to what they are doing and are choosing to take an extreme risk with no coercion. But when half the team makers are living in literal poverty and are only choosing to take the risk because they have few other options, that seems kinda messed up.
Sure - and i'm sure I could find people who'd play a game of russian roulette for $1M but it'd be massively unethical to hire people to do that.
So there's obviously some line - as a society we consider it ethical to hire forestry workers or deep sea fishermen even though they have a significantly higher risk of death that most other professions. I think a 25% death rate is just unethical in the extreme, even Everest is something like 1%.
I have no idea, but hiring someone for a job that has a 1 in 20 chance of killing them seems fundamentally immoral - especially given the massive financial imbalance.
It's certainly a good philosophical question though
Yeah, taking it to the extreme, the same logic applies to delivery guys on scooters and motorcycles. There’s definitely no good answer, except maybe that they accepted the risk
Looking at it more, there seems to be an entire field of Risk Ethics associated with this.
Still the most dangerous job in the US is a Commercial Fisherman with a risk of death of 132 per 100,000. That's a very long way from the risk of dying on Everest or K2.
Yeah I don’t understand the clamour. This sort of situation has happened many, many times. I remember reading about a guy dying in a cave near the Everest summit. Other climbers sat with him and shared water, comfort, but from that location, if he couldn’t move on his own, there was no way he was getting down. Also the numerous “landmark” bodies that the climbers pass right off the trail… there’s no safe way to remove them.
I think people assume that you can just carry someone out on a stretcher or arrange a helicopter—but people are literally operating on bleeding edge of oxygenation and helicopters can’t get up their for the same reasons… you aren’t going to be able to remove an incapacitated person who needs total physical support from others to move.
You could say, well it’s fucked up that people are paid to support these climbs, because they need the money, and there’s some validity to that, but in that case it’s not that different from something like deep sea welding or being in a combat unit of a military, etc.
I consume Norwegian news, so my sources is wildly biased, but for what it’s worth:
The pakistani climber was extremely undergeared, not wearing even what has been called a “bare minimum” jacket and insufficient oxygen supplies. Even though Norwegian sources don’t deny that Kristin should have a trial for her inactions, they are leaning heavily towards making a case against the organization which was in charge of gearing up and preparing the pakistani.
I am torn. And as I stated, my sources is extremely biased, as Norwegians have a huge thing for lifting up our own people, but this case is not a great look.
Serious question? If so, I’m guessing that the simple answer is people spending a lot of money on very selfish and otherwise meaningless endeavors, which occasionally results in accidents that get a disproportionate amount of attention and vested interest by media. Something along those lines.
There’s something to be said for doing it yourself. The issue comes in when other people are required for you to make that achievement happen.
Don’t get me wrong, both sides of the argument have their merit. On one hand, these people are adults and they agree to go. On the other, would they agree to go at all if they were financially well off themselves?
Unfortunately the fediverse is very appealing to doomers and people who are jealous of those who have more than them. you can see how some of them call for the assassination of wealthy people in other threads.
One the one hand, it sounds like they DID try to save the guy for hours. And this is an incredibly dangerous thing to attempt with a shockingly high number of people dying an attempt every year. I also think everyone that attempts one of these climbs knows exactly what they are doing. The porter that died might not have been well paid by Norwegian standards, but I have little doubt that he was paid quite well for Pakistan…
… but on the other hand, this is completely unnecessary. These people are dying - whether they are a hired sherpa or a Western climber - for totally no good reason. They aren’t really exploring new lands anymore. They aren’t discovering new sources of X mineral or sailing unknown seas. Everything about this is just rich-person’s adrenaline vacation, and not something particularly important.
And that freedom is only possible if they would otherwise be financially stable and have good options for work.
We don’t know why this porter did what he did. Was because he loved pushing rich foreigners up a mountain? Or was it because he needed the money and had the skill?
I can’t remember if it was a documentary or a book where there was a jam getting to the summit of everest because basically the people in front of the line were struggling to keep walking up. The expert mountaineer said, paraphrasing : Out of shape, under prepared, whatever the cause, every minute not moving at pace means someone behind them is more likely to die. He explained they were a moving road block and gave them a 50/50 chance to make it down, IF they had paid for help. He decided 30 minutes later to give up his ascent and telling guides and others on the way down that there people struggling and to turn back. At that elevation, walking is a struggle even with oxygen. Helping someone out whether by giving them your oxygen or helping them down could mean both die. I personally wouldn’t do it, but I hope whatever people go up the mountain know exactly that, if they can’t carry their own weight, they’ll be left to die.
Everything about this is just rich-person’s adrenaline vacation
I don’t imagine I would disagree if you characterized Everest in that manner, but K2 is a much more dangerous and challenging climb than Everest. 6,871 people have summitted Everest and 310 have died climbing the mountain. Only 377 people have summitted K2 and 91 people have died climbing the mountain. People don’t attempt K2 just to have an impressive story to tell at dinner parties.
I’m not sure what more to expect from these people. They arent breaking new ground, they arent contributing to science and exploration, they are just trying to get their “world record” for their own selfish reasons. They absolutely would step over a westerner if it it’s corpse stood in their way.They use the bodies as milestones…
I’m not gonna stop them trying, but I’m certainly not impressed with their “achievement”. I do feel bad for the sherpa, who is just trying to feed his family. Hopefully more of them realise that their lives are not worth the risk.
Good point. Seems like the Turkish team tried to save him and everyone else ignored him..
Also, arguing against my point, I noticed some other teams have spoken out eg
Said Lukas Furtenbach, owner of Furtenbach Adventures: “We would have stopped our summit push and helped, no matter what it takes. Even if it means we have to give up our oxygen supplies and even if it means no summit for all our clients. This is a fundamental part of the pre-summit push briefing I do with all clients. I always prepare them so that if we come across a situation like that, we help. Period.” Source.
There have been several incidents on Everest in recent years which have highlighted Sherpas feeling bad about how they are treated, though.
Who the FUCK cares. Shoulda spent thay money on a sick insurance plan and paid it in full for the rest of his long Pakistani life. Instead he chose to do something that could be deadly and didn't bring any friends it seems. Maybe he shoulda saved up more to afford passage up the mountain for a friend. Other strangers are not responsible for your life or well-being if they are not trained and sworn to do so. And even then. Sometimes you're just not worth the risk of saying, doubly true if I don't give a fuck about you.
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