After approving blessings for same-sex couples, Pope asks Vatican staff to avoid 'rigid ideologies'

Pope Francis has urged Vatican bureaucrats to avoid “rigid ideological positions” that prevent them from understanding today’s reality

Pope Francis urged Vatican bureaucrats Thursday to avoid “rigid ideological positions” that prevent them from understanding today’s reality, an appeal made days after he formally allowed priests to bless same-sex couples in a radical change of Vatican policy.

Francis used his annual Christmas greeting to the Holy See hierarchy to encourage the cardinals, bishops and laypeople who run the Vatican to listen to one another and to others so they can evolve to truly offer service to the Catholic Church.

Speaking in the Hall of Blessings, Francis told them it was important to keep advancing and growing in their understanding of the truth. Fearfully sticking to rules may give the appearance of avoiding problems but only ends up hurting the service that the Vatican Curia is called to give the church, he said.

“Let us remain vigilant against rigid ideological positions that often, under the guise of good intentions, separate us from reality and prevent us from moving forward,"the pope said. "We are called instead to set out and journey, like the Magi, following the light that always desires to lead us on, at times along unexplored paths and new roads.”

Transporter_Room_3,
@Transporter_Room_3@startrek.website avatar

Recently heard a catholic who once tried to tell me that everything the pope does is ordained by God, and therefore “good”, go on a tangent about how the pope is now corrupted by Satan and “needs to be taken care of” with the clear intention that someone should murder the pope over his “not as negative as it used to be” view of lgbtq.

Weird how their priorities used to be “God church family country” back then and all it took was a little taste of fascism to turn them To “my chosen human replacement for Jesus, the group of people who look and vote the way I do, THEN maybe church, family mixed in there too if they look and vote the same way I do”

Zozano,

What is even the point of religion now? They profess to be a moral compass, but when they catch-up with the times, half of their followers cry “traitor!”.

arken,

Well, the main “point” of religion was never to be anyone’s “moral compass”.

Zozano,

Their main point is to convince people they are, hence, gay pope.

arken,

Still wrong. As you are probably aware, religion (broadly defined) as a phenomenon is present in all known cultures throughout the history of humanity, in a myriad of different shapes and forms. The common thread to all of them is not morality.

Zozano, (edited )

I know they aren’t, I’m saying their claim is that they are.

It’s even common to claim everything God does is just and right. If gay people get killed in a nightclub, it’s because they’ve sinned, and that’s Gods will, therefore, the gunman was doing the right thing.

Then you get the people with cognitive dissonance who claim that slavery was moral because God stipulated rules about how the slaves should be treated and “it was a different time”.

Then you get the people who turn themselves into bombs and believe mass murder is right, and the people that died should thank them, because the psycho took their victims to heaven with them.

Then you get the people who vote against abortion rights because they believe the most ethical thing to do is save babies, even if it risks the mothers life, or guarantees poor life quality (either from poverty or developmental issues).

It’s ALL a moral claim. When your moral foundation is God, nothing you can do in service of what that God supposedly says can be wrong.

arken,

All those things are abhorrent, still not the main point, core or raison d’être of religion in any way. One could perhaps say it’s a recurring theme in certain traditions, particularly of the abrahamic variety. Your perspective is very limited and very west-centric; ironically a very christian worldview.

Zozano,

Well that was condescending and not very constructive.

Can you tell me which modern religion doesn’t profess to provide a moral compass?

PeckerBrown,

Too bad choir boys can’t dodge rigid idealogues.

afraid_of_zombies,

Can he avoid fucking with the US Supreme Court and stopping his legions of priests from fucking small children?

TargaryenTKE,

How exactly is the Vatican fucking with the Supreme Court? (I’m not defending anything, I’m just genuinely curious)

MammyWhammy,

The youngest and least qualified member of the supreme Court who was forced through in the waning days of Trump’s administration, Amy Coney Barrett, was raised as and is still a member of the People of Praise, a para-church organization which consists mostly of Catholic members. People of Praise is a highly conservative organization that touts strong gender roles and is overall highly secretive.

At one point it is believed that Coney Barrett was the highest rank a woman could have in the organization, with the title of “Handmaid”.

During Amy Coney Barret’s confirmation hearings, the people of Praise purged all records of their magazine and member profiles from their website.

The People of Praise organization has been accused of covering up for child abusers on multiple occasions.

Source: Washington Post and the People of Praise Wikipedia article

afraid_of_zombies,

We have the most members on it right now who are Catholic in its history. Which caused an abortion ban and systemic stripping away of the rights of atheists.

TokenBoomer,

Nothing is real anymore

afraid_of_zombies,

Except our outrage

TokenBoomer,

Not sure. Outrage has been commodified with clicks and merchandising. We should have been out in the streets, burning buildings 30 years ago.

Crow,
@Crow@lemmy.world avatar

Is this man actually trying to get into heaven or something?

linearchaos,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

I hate the religion, I hate that there’s even a pope. But this guy, He’s the fucking best.

evranch,

Honestly as Christianity goes the Catholics are fucking moderates these days. Which really is saying something.

Also the Pope has like, the world’s best hat.

We’re a non-religious, casually Christian affiliated family and we’re seriously thinking of sending our daughter to a Catholic school just for the far higher quality of education. (No concerning priests or nuns btw, these are government run schools)

I never would have even considered it as an option 10 years ago. But they really do seem to have their shit together, terrible acts in the past notwithstanding

Godric,

I grew up catholic, and personally don’t know many who could be described as a moderate. 90% of the catholics I know dislike the current pope intensely for his liberal views, so be wary

the16bitgamer,
@the16bitgamer@lemmy.world avatar

Hey internet stranger. Here is another internet strangers 2 cents on Catholic High Schools based on my personal experience.

TL:DR Education is good, but the school might make it so they can’t take the classes they want or need for Religion Class (unless they mess up). And at my school there were cliques that socially isolated me and many others, with unchecked bullying which felt encouraged by the staff. I am happy I completed it, but I’d wouldn’t want my kids to go through the same thing.

This happened over a decade ago, but the school I went to was both good, and very, very bad. The pro was why you are considering it. The education quality is much higher than the local public school. I was prepared for University much better than those I meet at the University I went to, who went to public High School.

The con was two fold. First some education options were denied to other students due to “optional” religion studies class. Technically a school can’t force a high schooler to take religion where I went. But the check box for that course was always checked before I got the class sheet. Which meant that I couldn’t choose what optional courses I wanted if it overlap with that religion course.

On a side note they messed up 3 ways in my last year. They couldn’t get me in a gym class for gr 12, so I had to goto a gr 10 class, then I took a CAD course which I wanted and a coding, but by the time they realized I wasnt taking religion, it was too late. I was given a speal on how I couldn’t get a religion high school diploma, but just the normal one. It was fun especially since.

The second big con. The school was extremely cliquey. Like debilitating so. I was from another community, my bus ride was an hour away. So in Gr 9 I tried to make friends… But the cliques were already made. And I as well as many others were socially isolated. I didn’t find the misfits hiding away at lunch in the media classroom until like gr. 10/11. There was another crowd in the art room. This attitude sadly felt encouraged by some the staff, and bullying was out of control, it often resorted to physical violence more than once. I stayed off of the radar but I hated those 4 years. If it wasn’t for my activities outside of school I would’ve been in a really bad state.

With that said, there was another (3 in total) Catholic high school in my local area, which my extended family went to. Apparently the one they went to was so much better.

Retrospectively, I understood how much of a benefit it was to go there. I am happy I was able to stick it out. But I would do a lot of research before putting my kids into a Catholic high school since I don’t want them to have a repeat of my time.

evranch,

Thanks for sharing your experience, stranger. This is one of the reasons I like Lemmy though I do still hang out on Reddit, more serious discussion, less memes and trolling. Well… unless you count the front page, I guess.

I can see the cliques issue being a big one especially if you were an outsider from a different community, and came in at the middle school level. That sounds brutal, honestly.

My daughter is lucky to be young and already have friends in the school, girls she grew up and went to daycare and earlier grades with. They still hang out on weekends and chat with their kid messenger app all the time, so that’s a foot in the door for sure. In the school she goes to now, there is already bullying and violence so I figure it can’t really be worse. On the upside I guess it’s already made her tough, we put her in Taekwondo after school and she took to it like a fish to water, she’s a little scrapper and her kicks are really mean for a 9yo girl. She already wants to integrate her boxing skills into an MMA style and they’re like no, you can’t spar like that with the other kids as they aren’t expecting a right hook!

The religion class issue sounds odd. It implies that those courses like CAD and coding are only available to those who give up the religious component? But those are premium courses that you would think they want their Catholic students to be able to take. Or am I misunderstanding the way it works?

I grew up with some guys and had some other friends who went to Catholic schools and it seems their opinions were similar to yours. Either they loved it and made friends for life, or they hated it and felt excluded from groups. Nothing in between. However even those who hated it said the same thing looking back, they were glad that they went there for the future opportunities it gave them.

The public school won’t allow an end of semester transfer out (probably because they lose the funding) so there’s plenty of time to confirm this is what I want for her before next school year, and I’m doing a lot of research and talking to a lot of people.

the16bitgamer,
@the16bitgamer@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah I can give more context for that. Memory is hazy, but we had our day split into 4 periods, which our classes were held. 2 in the morning, 2 in the afternoon noon. For half the school year we take 4 classes, like English, Math, Chemistry Religion, and Gym. Then the other half of the school year we take another 4 classes like Civics, Physics, and two of our choice.

In Gr. 9 and Gr. 10 we only had the option to choose 1 extra course, I remember taking music. In Gr. 11 and Gr. 12 it was mostly chosen by us outside of the University track classes or the College track classes.

The issue is Religion was technically a “optional course” that we had to take. I was in Ontario when I was in school. According to the provincial law, you can’t force a student to take religion which is why we were never told. Or the option was selected for us.

The problem is that if a kid wants to take Physics, Chemistry and Biology, but also business and coding, they’d have to choose to not take one of them. Since the school will “encourage” them to take Religion, though I think with the right guidance councillor will help them find a way. Legally they can’t force them, but then why are they there, and you won’t graduate with a catholic school diploma.

I feel a lot of my issues stemmed from more of the staff encouraging the behaviours of cliques, rather than the students being naturally cliquey. Kids and kids and will do terrible things to each other. I feel it’s up to the adults in a situation to give a guiding hand.

Now I was given an out in my last year to back to public school. Not sure what it’s like where you are.

linearchaos,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t pretend to know where you are time vs money. And it could be that private school is your best option. I’m also assuming that you’re in the US but that may not be the case. And what you can throw away everything I’m saying here because I know public and private schools in Europe and many other places are entirely different.

I did private for a few years. The only substantial difference for me was that the private teachers would make sure you do your homework and punish you if you don’t.

YMMV, but I will have to say that probably 40% of those kids in my private school were Grade-A assholes. Zero compassion, every little thing was a do or die competition. The teacher would do the best she could to control social situations but, there’s only so much she can do. She’s not going to fight the other parents for you by kicking little Jimmy out for being a jerk. They bring the two sets of parents together and that’s about the point where you find out why Little Jimmy is the way he is.

The state schools are being pressured pretty hard for testing scores, so it’s not so much that they don’t want to teach your kids or can’t teach your kids, but they’re underfunded and overworked and are going to pick the ones that are easiest to teach to raise that number.

But you can probably get the same outcome from using public school and pulling in a tutor after say middle school. Your school might even provide tutelage, but you’re probably going to have to realize that it needs to happen and ask them for it.

If you have some time, even just getting marginally involved in your kids education you can pull off approximately what the private schools do. Order the common core teacher manuals that your schools use, once a week go over the same things they did in school. Tell your public teachers you want to get on the same page as them they’d probably be delighted no matter how useless the seem.

Again if you’ve got excess cash, The private schools will absolutely get the job done. Just do some due diligence, find some families locally that take their kids there start asking them particular questions that would suit your kids well.

Anything before around 10th grade, just make sure that they’re keeping up grades and knowledge in algebra, calculus, trig, science and english.

All those high school grades and scores are honestly trash as long as they get into the college they want.

evranch,

So here in Canada (at least on the Prairies) we’re lucky enough to have Catholic school as a publicly funded option. There would be no additional cost to me.

The thing is my kid is doing great for now (grade 4) and I’ve taught her a ton of science, engineering and math from my own knowledge. She’s bright and engaged… At home. But the standard school system is trying their best to change that.

In her class at school they are still counting blocks and doing 2-digit addition. And they need to do that, because there are kids in her class who can’t count. And can’t read! In grade 4!

The teachers say she’s top of the class easily, but how do they quantify that, just that she seems smart? There is no scoring, no grades, no discipline. It’s nothing like school when I was young. There’s this little shit in her class that likes to scream so they gave everyone else earmuffs to use when he does. He’s not disabled or anything mind you - just a spoiled disruptive little shit.

It’s a trash environment that’s hard on smart kids. I taught her how to box and also how nice girls only ever hurt someone by accident. So far she’s knocked out a kid who likes to push little girls down the stairs and took another bully’s teeth out. She told me “but they were gonna fall out anyways. It was an accident!” Good job, kid.

More parents have been pulling their smart kids for the Catholic school and she lost 2 of her best friends there this year. Most of the other kids left aren’t really decent company… They are dumb as a load of rocks honestly. The selection pressure to the Catholic system and to private schools has taken its toll.

So I went to visit the Catholic school to see what it was like and it was night and day. The kids were all lean, healthy looking and bright eyed. No fat kids. No scrubs. No screaming brats. No tablets or phones, at recess everyone was playing sports and games and laughing and smiling. Looks like the kind of company I want my daughter to grow up with, honestly.

The principal was horrified to hear my stories from public school and promised that they teach kids individually with extra projects and enrichment for kids who are ahead. Which is great because often my daughter tells me she wants to just stay on the farm with me “Because there’s no point in going to school, I’ll learn more working with you”

They have sports, they have clubs, everything from knitting and choir to lockpicking and hacking. They have a full band program and an entire supply of loaner instruments! A huge and well kept library full of mostly secular books. All the stuff that a school should have, but mostly it’s what it doesn’t have that I’m interested in. Otherwise she’s going to fall off the rails and spend her highschool days like I did - bored to death and getting into drugs, drinking and causing trouble.

My wife teaches at a local college and is very concerned that the quality of incoming students seems to drop every year and yet their attitudes get more and more entitled. The Catholic district has won industry awards for their mentorship and job placement programs, the public district… Well… They don’t even have them.

linearchaos,
@linearchaos@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah I’m out of my depth with your experience, sounds like you’re making a good decision.

evranch,

Yeah it’s… Pretty bad here. I used to be proud to be Canadian but when I look at what I wrote, it drives home how our country is just a shadow of the place I grew up in. The average Canadian is barely getting by, and quality of services is degrading rapidly.

Sounds like you’re in Europe. I’ve often wondered what it would be like, if we could start a new life somewhere civilized.

I’m electrician and electric motor systems technologist by certification, systems integrator, programmer, millwright and machinist by skillset, CTO is my current job title. Wife has degrees in physics and controls technology, used to work oilfield engineering, now teaches science and math at post-secondary level. Daughter is a 9yo Linux desktop user and Python programmer, deserves a better future than this country has to offer. Got her an Arduino robot kit for Christmas.

Any market for people like us over there? I would love to abandon this sinking ship.

felbane,

Your first paragraph: replace Canadian with American and it still works. I’m horrified about the future we’re leaving for our children.

Also while private education isn’t a no-cost option for Americans, the experience is largely similar to what you’ve described. Public school aims for getting the lowest performing students across the state-defined “functional” line at the expense of the average and above average students, and when parents raise the issue we’re expected to defer to the Ed.D on the school board who hasn’t seen the inside of a real classroom in decades.

GbyBE,

If you move to the EU, not only your skillset will determine how easily you can find a decent job, but also how well your diploma translates to the ones we have here. My guess is that for technologically or scientifically oriented degrees, that’s probably not too much of an issue, on the condition that the level of education for the degree you have in your country of origin is good enough.

If you’re seriously considering this, I’d suggest finding some people who made the same decision and talk to them about their experience.

The EU has its own problems of course, but I have the feeling there’s generally less inequality than in a lot of other first world countries. Access to good education and healthcare is generally cheap or at least affordable. Some countries cope with waiting lists for specialized healthcare however, although that differs from country to country.

As a Canadian, the language shouldn’t be an issue. In large parts of Europe, you can get by with French and English. In a larger, multilingual company, people usually default to English. I know a Syrian family who fled the war with their kids (the youngest wasaround the age of yours), and the kids learned the language (Dutch) very quickly and did well in school, moving on to university education. The parents had a harder time adjusting, since their degrees weren’t very compatible, but also the language remained an obstacle for them.

DragonTypeWyvern, (edited )

It’s like he doesn’t even know what being a Christian is about!

Hate and judgemental behavior.

Soleos,

It’s official, the Pope identifies as ideofluid

PatFussy,

I actually dont like this. Im not super religious but hold your fucking ground. If you say something is not allowed then dont get pushed over because thats how society has transformed. He should be saying heathenism is rampant not “lets figure this out together babes, im sure god can come to an understanding”.

duplexsystem,

???

aprnu,

congrats, you just made some nonbelievers, believe again

Siegfried,

Then i saw her face

idiocracy,

if humans would only hold their ground they’d still be stuck in the caves.

critical thinking and changing your mind show strength, not weakness.

NoIWontPickaName,

God forbid that the church that preaches love and forgiveness for all shows love for all right?

TheBlue22,

Sort of like Christianity?

PrincessLeiasCat,

As someone who went to Catholic school for 12 years:

wut?

prole,

Are we gonna end up with an anti-pope?

I really don’t know, I just know the term and it sounds cool.

Lamedonyx,

I mean, there are already plenty, for example, Peter III, who leads a Spanish church that believes they are the rightful Church. (Also, antipope is a subjective word, like heretic. From the perspective of various sects, the Pope Francis is the antipope.)

Nothing stops you from calling yourself Pope and claiming you’re the rightful leader of the Church, hereby making you an antipope to the eyes of the Church.

Now is there going to be a relevant antipope, that’s a lot less likely.

The relevancy of antipopes hinged on the political power of the pope. Having the pope at your beck and call was an extremely powerful tool in the Middle Ages. But nowadays, between the secularization of most Catholic countries, and the massive loss of influence of the Catholic Church, an antipope would only have as much influence as his followers would give him, especially since they wouldn’t have the support of the Holy See or the Church.

prole,

I imagine it’s quite a bit different when an actual pope turns into an anti-pope, compared to just some random dude in Spain claiming to be Pope, no?

Lamedonyx,

For the Pope to turn into an antipope, you’d either need to have a massive schism in the Church that leaves the current pope completely stranded politically and causes the Church to ignore him, or you’d somehow need a higher authority than the Church to show up and name a different pope, and assume the current one wouldn’t yield.

So basically, short of Jesus showing up and naming a new pope that the current one doesn’t agree with, the current pope won’t become an antipope.

misophist,

(Also, antipope is a subjective word, like heretic. From the perspective of various sects, the Pope Francis is the antipope.)

I thought the Church claimed an unbroken line of popes going back to the apostle Peter.

Wouldn’t any competitor only have a legitimate claim if they named their first pope during the brief downtime between popes? Otherwise they’re just another protestant sect.

Lamedonyx, (edited )

Some did (the Spanish church from the example I gave named their first pope after the death of Paul VI in 1976), but nothing stops you from having your own conclave of bishops, and have them say that the current Pope has been judged inept to rule (although that has never happened before in the Holy See).

Which would make the line unbroken, the same way that the line was still unbroken when Benedict XVI resigned and Francis was elected pope.

afraid_of_zombies,

Still I think if you are an anti-pope you kinda know it. You aren’t in the Vatican and people aren’t drooling on your ring.

Bernie_Sandals,
@Bernie_Sandals@lemmy.world avatar

Honestly it’s possible. Certain diocese of the church (looking at you USA) have become far more conservative as the rest of the Church has passed them by. Vatican 2 has fully taken hold, and I really don’t believe the conservatives hold enough power in Rome to elect one of their own when Francis passes.

They very well might just take their ball and go home like the “Old Catholics” did after the reforms of the First Vatican Council.

RIPandTERROR,
@RIPandTERROR@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

GAY POPE GAY POPE GAY POPE

PLS 😭🙏

Siegfried,

Im afraid, he is giving strong hetero vibes with this…

heterodox vibes

nullPointer,

what he really means is avoid “rigid ideological positions” like “don’t rape children”

Corkyskog,

Why did they adopt “magi” for the Wiseman? When historically it has been used to describe a magician, alchemist, witch, etc.

NoIWontPickaName,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi

Corkyskog,

Seems a little too late to try and pivot and get young parishioners back. They gone, people don’t go back to their old religion.

MonkderZweite,

That bit about condoms?

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