‘We Cannot Win’ Says Top Russian Commander

https://archive.li/Z0m5m

The Russian commander of the “Vostok” Battalion fighting in southern Ukraine said on Thursday that Ukraine will not be defeated and suggested that Russia freeze the war along current frontlines.

Alexander Khodakovsky made the candid concession yesterday on his Telegram channel after Russian forces, including his own troops, were devastatingly defeated by Ukrainian marines earlier this week at Urozhaine in the Zaporizhzhia-Donetsk regional border area.

“Can we bring down Ukraine militarily? Now and in the near future, no,” Khodakovsky, a former official of the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic, said yesterday.

“When I talk to myself about our destiny in this war, I mean that we will not crawl forward, like the [Ukrainians], turning everything into [destroyed] Bakhmuts in our path. And, I do not foresee the easy occupation of cities,” he said.

gravitas_deficiency,

“We can [though] enter a phase that is most unfavorable for Ukraine in its ‘independent’ state: a phase of neither peace nor war. We could be in this phase if, instead of the special military operation, the [currently occupied] territories were recognized and officially taken under guardianship. But it would require a completely different twist of history,” Khodakovsky said.

I find it consistently amazing and hilarious that Russian strategic leadership appears entirely incapable of recognizing that they can’t simply dictate geopolitics, warfare, and international borders to external parties. Ukraine - and to a lesser degree, its allies - get a vote too, and they’re not going to be “freezing” anything for the foreseeable future.

rammer,
@rammer@sopuli.xyz avatar

Unfortunately there are those in the west that agree. Either because they are paid/blackmailed to agree. Or they have been misled by the former.

Jaysyn,
Jaysyn avatar

Russia is going to love that new DMZ.

Aquilae,
@Aquilae@hexbear.net avatar

Browsing through top posts, and damn this didn’t age very well lol

brain_in_a_box,

And none of the libs have learned a thing. They’re busy gushing over the claim that 90 percent of Russia’s army has been destroyed, and all the previous claims of imminent victory have been memory holed.

TheBlue22,

NO SHIT

crowsby,

I’m glad to see that incessant and pervasive whataboutism is welcome in the Fediverse. I was afraid for a few weeks that I had left it behind with Reddit but clearly that’s not the case.

ThomasMuentzner,
@ThomasMuentzner@hexbear.net avatar

what about it ? whats wrong with comparison ? It gives perspective on Claims and Hypocracy …

yata,

Whataboutism isn’t perspective. It is just calling out completely unrelated wrongs in an attempt to deflect from the wrong being discussed.

bigwag1,

Yet, usually related. It’s only whataboutism when what it’s about is an inconvenient rebuttal to the former statement. Claiming whataboutism is an attempt to deflect the rebuttal.

crowsby,

Nothing is wrong with it, it’s awesome and I love it. I’m something of a whataboutism aficionado and am planning on printing out this thread and laminating it for future reference.

ThomasMuentzner,
@ThomasMuentzner@hexbear.net avatar

exactly i dont know what the big issue is it leads to wisedom (do let me tell you , sometimes i think there is a evil empire out there putting out all these words out into impressional youngpeoples Mouth to confuse and Mislead them , Aliens probably)

anyway , now that we have established “what- about -ism” as a valid instrument of Analysis , we can use it on historical data …

https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/02343531-5a69-430f-8aff-699ce9c4548a.png

On this scientific Paper , yo ucan see the generall DIFFERENT reaction of the Western Puplic towards the SAME ACT. this is very significant , and its tells us that THE ACT ist not the real issue here ! Something Else is the Issue here ! can we investigate the underlying dynamic ?

Could there be another Set of Data ?,

Another reference point ? ,

That puts the Reaction to “the Act” in order ?

Is there Something that connects all of the “mild Reaction cases” , and is there opposingly also something that conects all the “non -mild Reaction”

we are working the Mine of Knowledge and wisdom here , do you feel it … Rich rich Soil … , we are nearly there !!! Do you Feel it allready , there is wisdom here !

you do the last step …

and then you see it …

All thanks to your trusty local organic Shovel called “what about it”

"no wonder the -'Belive Us Blindly -Conglomerat™ ’ Dont want me to use this Product , you think while you dig further , it is actually interesting ! ",

you think , while you dig further …

Flaps,

Are you talking about the amount of people who do a ‘whataboutism’, or the people who throw ‘whataboutism’ around in every thread as soon as they’re being pressured on their own ideological inconsistencies?

yata,

Whataboutism is pretty well defined. We know what it is and when people are using it to deflect from issues they don’t want to discuss.

redtea,

Is what about whataboutism whataboutusm? If not, what about whataboutism about whatabout whataboutism?

crowsby,

Yes

ghosts,

deleted_by_author

    •
    JackBruh,

    Ukraine will win the power of Freedom and Friendship. Seethe commie seethe

    LoveSausage, (edited )
    @LoveSausage@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Fuck off nazi scum

    JackBruh,

    You’re the one who has a Nazis Cum

    LoveSausage,
    @LoveSausage@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Hope you die painfully

    yata,

    Does it ever get tiring to project as much as you do?

    anoncpc,

    Kyivpost, propaganda rag.

    st33lb0ne,

    Russia allready lost. They just keep ignoring it

    bigwag1,

    If we ever lose, so does the world lol

    TeddyKila,

    do you feel in charge?

    Doubledee,
    @Doubledee@hexbear.net avatar

    I’m curious, do you still feel this way?

    Awoo,

    “U.S. intelligence says Ukraine will fail to meet offensive’s key goal”

    https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e3a00496-37bf-4784-a920-8be4febd87f7.png

    territory ukraine has reclaimed in its counteroffensive

    https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/789ce23b-ad2c-4777-824d-9da8d6bb8c5c.png

    yata,

    Yes, more shitty memes. That will definitely make people fall in line with your cause and not think you have nothing positive to contribute but shitposting.

    argv_minus_one,

    Russia may not be able to win, but it’s got enough nukes to make sure everyone loses.

    shiteyes2,

    Lol I read the whole thread. Yeah somebody is definitely winning this mess shall we interview the pile of bodies on the east side or the west side hmm I don’t know

    ennemi,

    It’s an investment, remember

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    In. Democracy!

    freedom-and-democracy

    purahna,
    @purahna@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    this thread is wild

    can we remember, everyone:

    1. discussion on who is winning has no bearing on discussion of who is in the right, and vice versa
    2. Russia, Ukraine, and NATO can all be evil and wrong for separate and true reasons
    3. criticizing NATO does not amount to supporting Putin
    4. criticizing Putin does not amount to supporting NATO
    freagle,

    Can we also remember that Russia is a country and Putin is it’s head. You don’t even know the name of the top leadership of NATO. You don’t say this is Biden’s proxy war but you imagine every single decision is Putin’s.

    And also, stop psychologizing world leaders as though you have a parasocial relationship with them.

    airlinefood,

    Geopolitics is exactly the same as my interpersonal relationships actually

    McCainRBGcreampie,

    Um, actually, geopolitics is YA literature and marvel movies.

    Harry Potter zelensky-pain

    vs

    Thanos putin-wink

    and if you disagree, you’re a fascist communist putler-lover

    ProfessorAdonisCnut,

    Can’t wait for people to not care anymore about the gallant people of Ukraine under Russian occupation because they got Marvel fatigue and stopped watching the war 3 seasons ago.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Haven’t most people already given up on this? I thought it was just us weird politics people who don’t get invited to parties now?

    SoyViking,
    @SoyViking@hexbear.net avatar

    For what it’s worth, most of the Ukraine flags that people put up in my city when the war started has been taken down months ago.

    oce,
    @oce@jlai.lu avatar

    A democratically elected president and a dictator don’t represent their people with the same legitimacy nor do they have the same concentration of powers at their personal disposal.

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Are you under the delusion that Ukraine is a democracy?

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    You have to be more specific than that I’m not clear who you’re referencing.

    InappropriateEmote,

    Putin’s approval in Russia consistently polls extremely high and his decisions generally supported, whereas Biden’s approval hovers around the high 30s-percentage, breaking records for lowest approval in the history of the country. And you think Putin has even a modicum of the power that the leader of the country that is world hegemon has?

    data-laughing

    SeaJ,

    Odd that Putin still has to stop obviously rig his elections considering how support is so high.

    Alaskaball,
    @Alaskaball@hexbear.net avatar

    Like how the American democrats put their whole ass on the scale in order to get biden to win their nomination, or how the entire american media apparatus openly collaborated with the democrats in order to drag biden’s senile corpse past trump’s bloated corpse to the finish line?

    Russia is a product of American interference, and their government is but a reflection of the wretched system of governance that is the American government.

    WldFyre,

    That means anything Russia does is bad, then, right?

    Alaskaball,
    @Alaskaball@hexbear.net avatar

    That means anything Russia does is Blowback in America’s face.

    InappropriateEmote,

    It is indeed odd that US propaganda can’t make up its mind between “Putin Ebil Crazed Dictator Sole Actor Behind War” and “Russian Brainpan Predisposed to Being Big Meanies.” So Which is it? Do Russians actually not support Putin and the SMO or are all of these western sources talking about his soaring approval actually just on Putin’s payroll?

    SeaJ,

    Those western sources also agree that he rigged his election. Not saying he needed to but it was very obvious that he did.

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Not saying he needed to but it was very obvious that he did.

    Come on. Take like ten seconds to think about what you typed out here.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Are we talking about Biden or Putin I can’t keep track?

    InappropriateEmote,

    Not saying he needed to but it was very obvious that he did.

    picard

    Do you hear what you’re saying?

    Putin: “Even though I have overwhelming support, I’m going to conduct a giant conspiracy to win an election I would win anyway. It may come with very high cost and no actual benefit, but YOLO. In fact it might even undermine all that support I already have. But fuck it, I’m an evil dictator, so that’s what I’m gonna do.”

    putin-wink

    Those western sources also agree that he rigged his election.

    Maybe, just maybe… no, no, hear me out… Maybe you should start questioning all the things you hear from those western sources?

    oce,
    @oce@jlai.lu avatar

    Polls are not trustworthy in a country with no freedom of press and repressed/assassinated political opposition.
    Yes, Putin over his decades of authoritarian regime has way more power over his country than Biden or any democratically elected head of state over theirs.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Christ let me go get the fucking qoute. Third time today.

    “During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence. If the Soviets refused to negotiate a point, they were intransigent and belligerent; if they appeared willing to make concessions, this was but a skillful ploy to put us off our guard. By opposing arms limitations, they would have demonstrated their aggressive intent; but when in fact they supported most armament treaties, it was because they were mendacious and manipulative. If the churches in the USSR were empty, this demonstrated that religion was suppressed; but if the churches were full, this meant the people were rejecting the regime’s atheistic ideology. If the workers went on strike (as happened on infrequent occasions), this was evidence of their alienation from the collectivist system; if they didn’t go on strike, this was because they were intimidated and lacked freedom. A scarcity of consumer goods demonstrated the failure of the economic system; an improvement in consumer supplies meant only that the leaders were attempting to placate a restive population and so maintain a firmer hold over them. If communists in the United States played an important role struggling for the rights of workers, the poor, African-Americans, women, and others, this was only their guileful way of gathering support among disfranchised groups and gaining power for themselves. How one gained power by fighting for the rights of powerless groups was never explained. What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy, so assiduously marketed by the ruling interests that it affected people across the entire political spectrum.”

    When it good country polls good and accurate

    When it bad country polls bad lies and falsehoods

    Every fucking time.

    Flaps,

    Evergreen quote

    freagle, (edited )

    So the Russian Federation, a republic, built in the aftermath of the dismantling of the largest bureaucratic democracy in the world built under the eye of the West for the purpose of liberty and freedom and economic capitalism, that Russian Federation is so different than the West that we can attribute nearly all bad things done by Russia to Putin, but in the West it’s such a complex and nuanced situation that it’s really the whole system to blame?

    Keep huffing cope. You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.

    InappropriateEmote,

    You don’t say this is Biden’s proxy war

    I-was-saying

    purahna,
    @purahna@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    I don’t imagine that every decision is Putin’s, and it’s just as much Biden’s proxy war as Putin’s except that Putin has been head of government for the entire duration of the build-up whereas the build-up started 4 US heads of government ago. I’m just using the terminology most frequently used in the discourse.

    Also I will psychologize any world leader I please, any leader of a bourgeoisie state is a horrible wretched ghoul

    shodan5000,

    Fake news. Total war propaganda lol.

    snowiekitten,

    yea as much as i love ukraine this article is some obvious bs

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Just wondering, what is it you love about Ukraine? Do you have family there?

    AsRedAsMonkeysAss,

    He’s gonna jump out d window soon

    CascadeOfLight,

    If you want to know what the smartest guy in the US military thinks, read this

    (Assuming, of course, that you don't consider the Marine Corps Gazette to be Russian propaganda)https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/5c6c7c16-0808-4eed-91c0-d32f01d125cf.jpeg https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/ea3a1dcf-532e-44c5-9bb6-690e6c1dd5fb.jpeg https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/688be796-62a4-43f0-bd52-93186c1ac10f.jpeg https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/037d74e0-8a11-43f8-a990-26f1f4d18f34.jpeg

    Ukraine is on its fourth army, which has been badly mauled in a counterattack lasting two months with gains measured in single digit miles and casualties in the tens of thousands.https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/75e7c1db-18a9-43e1-8e83-f5216a0f8a41.png

    This is who they were sending to the front in APRIL LAST YEARhttps://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/6f9908de-4f30-4251-9651-4d2e36c7fc7e.pngOld men and boys

    But at least Russia's out of missiles!https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/bcb7f0d6-c751-4493-89a5-6f13ee44a191.png

    Riffraffintheroom,

    That gazette article was a breathe of fresh air. So novel to read a stark, bare bones, and honest account of how the war has played out. Until “the brutality inherent to Leninism” I forgot I was reading a USMC rag.

    Tankiedesantski,

    the brutality inherent to Leninism”

    sicko-wistful

    Sinonatrix,

    If you want a picture, imagine a spicy op-ed stamping on a trotskyist newspaper forever

    ElHexo,

    Marinus is a few people (including that guy)

    CascadeOfLight,

    Ah, I didn’t know that!

    UnicodeHamSic,

    It is a proxy war against America. You don’t win those. You just set yourself up a good position and dig in. America gets bored and leaves and then you can pick over what is left of what was destroyed. So you don’t win, you just wait for America to forfeit.

    LeateWonceslace,

    Imagine liking a queerphobic dictatorship.

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Imagine thinking Ukraine is any less queerphobic than Russia.

    AntiOutsideAktion,
    @AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net avatar

    Me, losing every chess game I ever play, but at least my mind is pure because I don’t think like those dirty white pieces.

    UnicodeHamSic,

    What are you talking about? I said I don’t like America. How did you get it backwards?

    crapwittyname,

    America is a plutocracy which accepts queerness in its federal law. Your gotcha went too broad.

    ThereRisesARedStar,

    which accepts queerness in its federal law.

    Bwahahaha

    Oh wait you’re serious

    Bwahahahahahahahahaha

    crapwittyname,

    Mate. Respect for Marriage Act 2022 is a federal law protecting same sex marriages. It’s there. It’s fact. Bwaha etc.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    The Respect For Marriage act of 2022 requires ONLY that states recognize existing same sex marriages. If Obergefell was overturned tomorrow, zombie laws kick in over a good chunk of the country banning same sex marriage. And Roberts as well as Thomas both opposed Obergefell.

    And that’s not evne getting into the fact that you’re sitll only talking about a single piece of legislation which ONLY requires that states recognize such marriages, it does absolutely nothing besides that. Which means that it is not only inadequate in what it does to protect queer marriage, but also that it’s a very minor piece of legislation in the grand scheme of queer discrimination.

    crapwittyname,

    That’s not the point. I feel I’ve already answered your argument in other comments. If you don’t agree, please let me know why and I’ll happily address it.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    You have done nothing to address the argument actually.

    crapwittyname,

    Ok. I did ask you to explain why?

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    I pointed out that the specific law you talk about does not in fact “Protect same sex marriages”, the act does absolutely nothing to stop states from banning same sex marriage, and that even if it did that it only covers a tiny aspect of queer discrimination. The act does not demand that states accept queerness, it does not demand that all states allow or protect gay marriage, it does not prevent states from banning same sex marriage, it does none of that. ALL it does is say that Texas can’t say a New York marriage is invalid because the people involved are of the same sex.

    crapwittyname,

    I mean that’s just completely false. The Act requires the U.S. federal government and all U.S. states and territories to recognize the validity of same-sex marriages.

    From the Act:

    Congress finds the following: ((a) In General.–No person acting under color of State law may deny– (1) full faith and credit to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other State pertaining to a marriage between 2 individuals, on the basis of the sex, race, ethnicity, or national origin of those individuals; or (2) a right or claim arising from such a marriage on the basis that such marriage would not be recognized under the law of that State on the basis of the sex, race, ethnicity, or national origin of those individuals.

    Seems pretty clear, no?

    Again I’m not trying to say this is a fait accompli and we can just sit back on our laurels and consider it done. But it’s a hell of a lot better than Russia’s law.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    I mean that’s just completely false

    No, it’s completely right and quoting a bit about how im right is an odd choice.

    Again. What I said was this

    ALL it does is say that Texas can’t say a New York marriage is invalid because the people involved are of the same sex.

    To which you respond with the text of the law stating that the law bans any government employee from not recognizing a marriage from another state on the grounds that its a gay marriage. At this point you are either trolling or acting in such bad faith you may as well be.

    crapwittyname,

    . At this point you are either trolling or acting in such bad faith you may as well be.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    “No u” isn’t the argument you think it is. But given your arguments so far, I’m hardly surprised this where you ended up.

    crapwittyname,

    There has been nothing wrong with my arguments. Acting like there has just doesn’t make it so.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    PIGPOOPBALLS

    ThereRisesARedStar,

    yikes-1 yikes-2 yikes-3

    Someone else is going to have to explain the ignorance present in this statement for I do not have the time or energy, could one of our cishet hexbears be a good ally?

    crapwittyname,

    You are incapable. That is because the comment is factually correct. US Federal law has protections for queerness. The cited law proves it. What point are you trying to make exactly?

    ThereRisesARedStar, (edited )

    The long and short of it is that legalizing gay marriage isn’t even a strong step to lgbt liberation, it is literally just tepid assimilationism. We are only “accepted by federal law” in most narrow and on their terms sense. Call me when the US government federally covers trans Healthcare, makes conversion torture a federal crime, deals with the queer(especially child) homelessness problem, and purges the people calling us all pedophiles.

    Also, learn some fucking humility.

    crapwittyname,

    But that’s not what was under discussion. Does there exist a federal law which protects queerness?
    Yes, yes there does.

    Is it perfect? By no means, there’s a long way to go. But the characterization of the US as queerphobic in the context of comparison to Russia is a nonsense. Both-sidesing this issue is a disgusting affront to the LGBTQ people suffering under Putin.

    ThereRisesARedStar,

    You’re original wording was:

    which accepts queerness in its federal law.

    You do not know what queerness is if you think that is met by gay marriage being legalized federally.

    Is it perfect? By no means, there’s a long way to go. But the characterization of the US as queerphobic in the context of comparison to Russia is a nonsense. Both-sidesing this issue is a disgusting affront to the LGBTQ people suffering under Putin.

    This is whataboutism. Also US capitalists fund the passage of anti-lgbt laws and hate campaigns globally that create basically pogroms against gay and trans people. So it is ridiculous because the US is much worse to gay and trans people globally.

    They also helped illegally and undemocratically dissolve the USSR and created the situation for Putin to exist in in the first place. Who knows, if they didn’t interfere maybe the USSR would currently be as progressive as Cuba is on the issue of queer liberation. And Ukrainian and NATO capitalists and Russian capitalists wouldn’t be sending conscripts to their deaths.

    crapwittyname,

    Legalising same sex marriage is an acceptance of queerness. At no point did I say that the issue was “met” (i.e. settled). In fact, I clearly said “it’s not perfect”.

    Its not whataboutism though. It’s a response to the original (flippant) claim that the US is a queerphobic dictatorship.

    I have not seen any pogroms against gay or trans people that have been funded or supported by the US government. Maybe going back a ways?

    I fucking hate the US government. Just need to mention that. They’re a joke and I want to see huge reforms, though I don’t hold out much hope.
    I hate the Russian government more, and with good reason, especially on the issue of queerphobia. Are you genuinely of the belief that the Russian government is less queerphobic than the US govt? If so, please explain that to me in big letters so that I can understand properly.

    ThereRisesARedStar, (edited )

    Legalising same sex marriage is an acceptance of queerness

    Its not going to get less ridiculous if you keep saying it.

    Are you even lgbt? Maybe you should ask some trans leftists what they think of this. Maybe read some Leslie Feinberg.

    It’s a response to the original (flippant) claim that the US is a queerphobic dictatorship.

    It is lmao. It is literally a dictatorship of capital with the most queer people imprisoned per population.

    I have not seen any pogroms against gay or trans people that have been funded or supported by the US government. Maybe going back a ways?

    Look at every single liberation movements that they mass murdered and you will find countless queer folks. Queer folks have always lead the charge against US imperialism in such movements.

    But also, I’m talking about US capitalists lobbying governments and running private campaigns. And the capitalists and the government are in the same bed together.

    I fucking hate the US government. Just need to mention that. They’re a joke and I want to see huge reforms, though I don’t hold out much hope. I hate the Russian government more, and with good reason, especially on the issue of queerphobia. Are you genuinely of the belief that the Russian government is less queerphobic than the US govt? If so, please explain that to me in big letters so that I can understand properly.

    Yes, they are more queerphobic, because they kill more queer people globally, and seek to destroy liberation movements globally. Russia might have worse laws but the US has more queer blood on its hands, and is ultimately responsible for a right wing Russian government existing in the first place.

    crapwittyname,

    its not going to get less ridiculous if you keep saying it.

    Nor will it get any less true until you refute it.

    Are you even LGBT?

    Fuck off. I don’t know you.

    The US is a plutocracy. You need to have a look at the definitions. It’s definitely not a dictatorship because there is a regular handover of power. Is it any better than a dictatorship? Up for discussion. But the definitions of words have to matter, and you’ve got the wrong one.

    So no examples of US government-led/supported pogroms against queer people then? Not even a single link to a pogrom which was supported by someone who was supported by an American capitalist who is demonstrably in bed with the American government? That’s looking like a pretty weak line of argument at the minute, though I’m open to hearing more.

    Your last paragraph is similarly hugely lacking in supporting evidence. It may be true, but at the moment I have to dismiss it utterly since it’s just your opinion, and, again, I don’t know you.

    ThereRisesARedStar, (edited )

    Most of what youre saying isn’t worth responding to; for example, claiming that the rich aren’t in bed with our politicians lol, but for the audience, some history:

    Here the Yankees are admitting to influencing the elections after the coup to keep the communists out of power because the people had previously voted not to dissolve the USSR before the coup and they were afraid of communists regaining control of the government.

    Here is a fun article on how the US is responsible for violence targetting lgbt people worldwide Just a tiny sample though

    Here is a relevant essay on liberals like you speaking over queer liberation activists.

    crapwittyname,

    Except I never made that claim. Is English not your first language? Your comprehension seems a bit below par and I don’t want to bully you out of the conversation if that’s the case. I could be less idiomatic if that would help?

    ThereRisesARedStar,

    Not even a single link to a pogrom which was supported by someone who was supported by an American capitalist who is demonstrably in bed with the American government?

    Stop being a debate pervert.

    crapwittyname,

    Is it against some rule of yours to ask for evidence?

    ThereRisesARedStar,

    Did you click on the links and read them?

    crapwittyname,

    Yep. They don’t prove the US is a queerphobic dictatorship. Not even close. I don’t know what more to say. Maybe you should open your mind a bit? There is some pretty good literature out there on the nature and inherent value of truth that might be illuminating for you.

    And one last thing. I’m not a liberal. Not everyone who you argue with is.

    redtea,

    I’m curious now, if you’re not a liberal what are you?

    crapwittyname,

    What do you want to know? Do you want me to label myself? PolComp score? What?

    redtea,

    ? You said you weren’t a liberal, suggesting that you think you’re something else. Which raises the question, what is that?

    crapwittyname,

    I’m not a liberal because I hold strong anti-capitalist views, for one example.

    redtea,

    Okay you say you’re not a liberal and you’re an anti-capitalist but what are you, in the positive? Unless you only define yourself by what you’re not?

    crapwittyname,

    I’m not into identity politics either. I am far left, anti authority, pro-worker, pro-human, pro-science. Lots of things. What about you?

    redtea,

    I’m a Marxist. I reject identity politics, too. You should look into Marxism. It could be right up your street.

    crapwittyname,

    Nice! I’ve read the manifesto, most of Das Kapital and some of his essays and his thinking is a big part of my worldview. I’m reading “at the café” by Malatesta at the moment and I think I like it enough to recommend.

    ThereRisesARedStar,

    Thats because you did not ask for links proving that, youre either being a debate pervert or have the memory of a goldfish.

    crapwittyname,

    Or, I’m considering your argument which is supported by your evidence that some US citizens aided homophobia in other parts of the world. What was that again?

    ThereRisesARedStar,

    Debate pervert, got it.

    Flaps,

    You’ve been provided what you’ve asked for now shut up and read it loser

    crapwittyname,

    I’m sorry, the claims are not supported by the provided links.

    Flaps,

    While I disagree, I can see where you’re coming from. Shouldn’t have called you that. Gonna do some introspection, since this entire federation thing and the influx of bad faith actors I didn’t encounter for three years, interaction with other users has made me pretty hostile. Sorry about that.

    crapwittyname,

    No worries

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    Legalising same sex marriage is an acceptance of queerness.

    Even if that were true, same sex marriage is legal because of a court decision, Obergefell v. Hodges, not this act.

    crapwittyname,

    The Act nonetheless exists, and as such, proves my point quite handily.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    'So if Saudi Arabia passed the “Homos are humans too, I guess” act, which didn’t actually do anything, you would consider this proof that Saudi Arabia is accepting of LGBTQ people?

    crapwittyname,

    If the act protected queer people, then I would defend Saudi Arabia against comparisons with countries that actively litigate against the existence of queer people, like Russia, yes.
    But I would not consider it proof that Saudi was accepting of queer people. For that I would probably look at testimonies of queer people in the country. Like the ones you can see from millions of US citizens.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    You can indeed point to millions of queer US citizens and have them tell you the stories of the discrimination they have faced at the hands of the US government.

    crapwittyname,

    That seems like something which would be infinitely harder to do with Saudi subjects. Probably because they aren’t allowed to be gay.

    h3doublehockeysticks,

    Using testimony of discrimination as evidence of acceptance is a novel strategy.

    crapwittyname,

    Glad to have surprised you. And yet, if you actually parse what I’m saying, you’ll see that the evidence in providing is a presumed lack of testimony being evidence of a lack of acceptance which indicates a comparison which is favourable to my argument.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Imagine having the reading comprehension of a sixth grader.

    purahna,
    @purahna@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Putin can hang from a barbed wire noose and also this is a US proxy war

    DauntingFlamingo,

    Wait a minute… Who invaded Ukraine in 2014, and again in 2021? Who illegally annexed sovereign territory? America is not blameless, but in this war they are just the arms dealer

    freagle,

    The USA has been training Ukraine military and irregulars for years. They organized a volunteer force to go fight there. They sent their politicians to support the right-wing coup. What the fuck are you talking about they are just arms dealers? They are providing recon and military intelligence, they are mobilizing their satellites and aerial assets, they are doing political work to get other nations to provide support and they are putting constraints on peace deals. They are not a fucking arms dealer.

    DauntingFlamingo,

    The US also sent a large number of politicians to spend 4th of July (their biggest nationalist holiday) in Russia.

    freagle,

    Was there a coup immediately after their visit?

    UnicodeHamSic,

    if you are right and they are just an arms dealer they are still the bad guys. You understand arm’s dealers are bad people right?

    UFODivebomb,

    No. That’s a reductionist take.

    “Can we have some weapons to defend ourselves?”

    "No! That’d make us evil. You should just die. "

    Oh a hexbear. … You lot only have overly simplistic takes.

    CascadeOfLight,

    You should just die

    Yes, rip bozos

    https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/aa54afe7-bb33-4cc8-8d59-35c9e5b193ba.png https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/f6b3ebd0-500b-4b35-b40e-78600e436219.jpeg

    My eternal grief for the hundreds of thousands of innocent Ukrainians pressed into the meatgrinder by their Nazi overlords, eternal death to the genocidal Kiev regime and their campaign of extermination against their own country’s citizens of Russian descent for eight years

    https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/2ddcfdf7-0a8d-44b0-b456-073b4b1e2deb.jpeg

    https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/10c908d2-39f6-4e55-8524-770503426369.jpeg

    CW: literally, unfathomably vilehttps://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/8951de87-ad02-4c29-add8-d511c416a27d.jpegThe Ukrainian fascist soldiers are offering you cans of ‘Separatist Baby Meat’!

    UFODivebomb,

    Needs more jpeg

    DauntingFlamingo,

    You realize the people in those photos are Russian citizens and connected to Wagner PMC, right? Identify each of them for us and prove you know what the hell you’re posting. Anyone can post a picture of a Nazi flag and say “See? SEE!??”

    brain_in_a_box,

    The people flying the Ukrainian flag are actually Russian?

    DauntingFlamingo,

    Yes. They are Wagner

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Prove it.

    SeaJ,

    I’m sure no Russian would ever got a Ukrainian flash for propaganda. /s

    SoyViking,
    @SoyViking@hexbear.net avatar

    Ukraine good, Russia bad. It follows that these Ukrainians doing bad stuff are in fact Russians.

    It’s a non-falsifiable orthodoxy that turns evidence on its head until it fits the pre-conceived narrative.

    InappropriateEmote,

    Do you enjoy carrying water for literal fascists?

    Reposting the same link as in my other comment, just because it so perfectly demonstrates how stupid and/or disingenuous it is to think that the near infinite written and photographic examples of Ukraine’s love of nazi iconography is actually a Russian false flag attempt:

    leftypol.org/edu/src/1662026001627.webm

    InappropriateEmote,

    Yeah, those damn Ruskies sure love carrying around banner portraits of Stepan Bandera and flying blue and yellow flags next to their swastikas and black suns and wolfsangels.

    All of these are Russian’s too, right? Especially the ones that say Azov Battalion? leftypol.org/edu/src/1662026001627.webm

    Flaps,

    You realize the people in those photos are Russian citizens and connected to Wagner PMC, right?

    Uh yea gonna need you to identify these Russian citizens in those pro bandera, ukraine flag waving marches here.

    DauntingFlamingo,

    Uh yeah gonna need the person claiming the photos are legit to post some proof. Burden of proof is on the presenter. That was my comment that you replied to. Since you can’t, we can assume you are arguing in bad faith and have nothing to contribute

    Flaps,

    Bruv Idk what to tell you ukraine has a known problem with its far right elements, and here are pictures presented of exactly that.

    Uh yeah gonna need the person claiming the photos are legit to post some proof

    YOU claimed these pictures were Wagner pmcs dressing up and holding fake far right marches with Ukrainian iconography. YOU back that claim up.

    DauntingFlamingo,

    And the person posting them produced no sources.

    Tell you what: I’ll post a picture of Martha Stewart and Snoop (there are lots of these photos on the interwebs) and then I’ll start telling everyone Martha is Snoop’s secret lover. I’ve presented a narrative that cannot be proven and is not the real story, BUT THERE ARE PICTURES! You see, without some sort of context and verification, any picture can be used to present a false narrative.

    Flaps, (edited )

    Okay well

    presented a narrative that cannot be proven and is not the real story

    Ukraines problems with the far right HAVE been proven tho

    www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-far-right-menace-radical-militants-ultranationalists/amp/

    Interesting last part of linked article:

    Acknowledging that reality does not turn the Kiev government into a nest of fascists, as Kremlin propaganda has claimed, nor does it absolve Russia of its assault on Ukraine’s sovereignty and illegal seizure of Crimea. Ignoring Ukraine’s far right, on the other hand, can have dire consequences for the very dream of a free and democratic country which so many Ukrainians have fought, suffered, and died for.

    Guess what you’re doing?

    Next link is an article by The Guardian. It includes a collection of pictures, too. Are you going to tell them to identify every single person in those pictures, too?

    google.com/…/ultranationalism-in-ukraine-a-photo-…

    Another one by The Guardian:

    google.com/…/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-…

    Next article is by Reuters. The article opens with said paragraphe:

    As Ukraine’s struggle against Russia and its proxies continues, Kiev must also contend with a growing problem behind the front lines: far-right vigilantes who are willing to use intimidation and even violence to advance their agendas, and who often do so with the tacit approval of law enforcement agencies.

    reuters.com/…/us-cohen-ukraine-commentary-idUKKBN…

    Please note I’ve used exclusively western sources of which I suspect you’d refer to too. There are more, but I’m doubting your intellectual honest and curiosity, as these links were just one Google Search away.

    And before you call me a putler bot or anything, as your types often do, fuck putin, the war is horrible and the fact he started it is unforgivable. Russia is a neoliberal state that in no way aligns with my own ideology. This doesn’t mean I have to all of a sudden voice support for the Ukrainian state or nato for that matter, considering the many crimes of said state and military pact. It’s a war between neoliberal, highly corrupt states in which the Russian and ukrainian working class stand nothing to gain.

    What I’d wish to see (apart from revolutionary defeatism on both sides and a socialist takover of both states) is an end to the killing, the full return of Russia to the 2021 borders, independence for loehansk and donetsk, a neutral ukraine as a buffer between nato and Russia. But nothing points to Russia willing to give up gained ground, or to Ukraine being able to break through the russian defences. Looking at a map showing the gains after two months of counteroffensive makes this clear, it’s something I feel we can’t deny. To think ukraine is going to reach the sea of azov or crimea is nothing but hopeful idealism at best.

    So, assuming you too want and end to the killing, and view the saving of human lives as more important than regaining the regions currently occupied, we’d have to think about the fastest way to do that. Is it to keep sending shipments of weapons and ammo to Ukraine? Well, NATO has been doing that for a year and a half now, not exactly to great effect. Note that in that time, hundreds of thousands of people were killed or injured. We can scream that putin should just retreat back to the border, but we both know that’s just not going to happen, no matter how many conscripts are sent into Russian minefields and artillery kill zones.

    Well… Then what remain? In my mind, it’s negotiations. Ukraine will be presented with terms they deem unacceptable, but if they don’t want to run out of Ukrainians, they’ll have to accept. I suspect they’ll have to wave goodye to the donbas region, but I also believe the citizens of said region would rather be either independent or integrated as Russian territory.

    What would you like to happen, and how do you see that happening? Oh and if you ever get around to identifying the Russians in those pictures, hmu.

    InappropriateEmote,

    Oh a hexbear. … You lot only have overly simplistic takes.

    When we respond to blatant ignorance with carefully chosen wording, backing up our position with citations and links, and calmly explaining the nuance of complex geopolitical realities, we get accused of “always throwing walls of text at people.” When we answer that same ignorance with short and pithy responses, we “only have simplistic takes.”

    parenti-hands

    There’s no winning with you simple-minded dronies, but I guess there never is when one side can just make shit up that fits their vibes-based outlook on the world.

    DauntingFlamingo,

    Which part was carefully chosen wording, and where are your citations?

    InappropriateEmote,

    What are you even asking for? What do you want citations on? As I made very clear with quoted text, I was responding to a claim about everyone on the hexbear instance.

    Do you want citations and careful wording that hexbear people use citations and careful wording? Or do you want citations and careful wording about something specific having to do with the topic of the OP? In either case, just read the comments from hexbear users all over this thread.

    DauntingFlamingo,

    You’re claiming that you argue from a valid point of citing your arguments, and presented zero citation. The person the replied to needed no citations for their argument because they presented ideas, not facts. You’re raging trying to tell people to cite things but you’re sitting in your tower without presenting citations. You’re a ragebait clown 🤡

    redtea,

    You said:

    You’re claiming that you argue from a valid point of citing your arguments, and presented zero citation. The person the replied to needed no citations for their argument because they presented ideas, not facts. You’re raging trying to tell people to cite things but you’re sitting in your tower without presenting citations. You’re a ragebait clown 🤡

    It’s unclear whether you’re deliberately misinterpreting InappropriateEmote or whether you simply don’t understand them. Either way, it seems sensible to quote the text that you’re replying to:

    When we respond to blatant ignorance with carefully chosen wording, backing up our position with citations and links, and calmly explaining the nuance of complex geopolitical realities, we get accused of “always throwing walls of text at people.” When we answer that same ignorance with short and pithy responses, we “only have simplistic takes.”

    This means that when Hexbear users present a longer argument with references, they get accused of writing walls of text. In response to this criticism, there is another approach: short and pithy responses.

    InappropriateEmote is unambiguously saying that in this example they went with option 2, a short and pithy response. They are not claiming to have provided a longer argument with references.

    This was said in response to a quip intended to shut down the discussion rather than deal with a critique:

    Oh a hexbear. … You lot only have overly simplistic takes.

    The alternative (dealing with the substance of the claim) would have required accepting all the other evidence that the US is both arms dealer and directly involved in running the Ukraine war and directing where it’s dealt arms go. Again as with yours, there was an attempt to decontextualize what a Hexbear user said so as to dismiss the overall argument without addressing it’s crucial features.

    It is entirely unclear what point you’re trying to make by distinguishing ideas from facts. Unless it’s a weird brag about being grounded in unfounded opinion rather than fact, which, if it is, is not the argument you think it is.

    DauntingFlamingo,

    🤡

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Damn, that’s a powerful argument.

    redtea, (edited )

    At least we know now. It doesn’t have to be this way. We will be here to explain how the world works whenever you’re ready to learn.

    WldFyre,

    But they’re from hexbear, that means they’re always right duh

    /s

    InappropriateEmote,

    No one ever said we are always right, and we can’t be, because our internal struggle sessions are well know. We weren’t even able to federate for 3 years due to incompatible code, and in that time, disagreed (to put it lightly) on things all the time in ways where both sides can’t be right. I realize it can be convenient for you to talk about people you’re trying to disparage as a monolith, but I assure you, no hexbear thinks hexbears are always right.

    But when it comes to actually knowing shit about geopolitics, and understanding realities beyond the narrative that has been crafted to justify the ruling class’ dominance and hegemony, it’s hard to get it wrong when you’re talking to propagandized liberals who eat up that narrative like good little unquestioning beneficiaries of empire. That much is true.

    AntiOutsideAktion,
    @AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net avatar

    If I were to understand history based entirely on two or three headlines in The Atlantic

    Blursty,
    @Blursty@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Who invaded Ukraine in 2014

    After whose coup d’etat?

    DauntingFlamingo,

    Ahhh let’s talk about those! The one in Russia last month was pretty cool. Sending Wagner to Belarus to mess with Poland, only for Poland to send 10,000 troops and see Wagner get shipped out of Belarus was pretty funny. Russia keeps trying the same playbook, and now it’s being met with equal force, so they’re pissed. Same reason the EU border states just expelled thousands of Russian citizens.

    They keep trying to stage coups using Russian citizens. The coup in Ukraine in 2014 was preceded by a border buildup of “special operation forces.” It also noteworthy how Russia has changed the lingo and now calls it “War in Ukraine.”

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Is it fun living in this fantasy world?

    Blursty,
    @Blursty@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Mate, ease up on the drugs. The real world is still going to be waiting for you when you come down.

    CanadaPlus, (edited )

    Russia does not have the resources for that. A reminder this isn’t a proxy war for them, even though it is for the West. Russia is there in person conventionally and is somehow losing to a minor Western ally.

    The Ukrainians aren’t going to run out of stuff within the next year for sure, and maybe not ever because even if the US gets bored Europe is highly invested. Russia has negligible productive capacity of it’s own, and is bound to have serious problems eventually, unless they convince China to help and China has so far been uninterested. They could theoretically win by population attrition, I guess, but nobody’s really talking about that yet. And, to do anything, they need political stability, after already having one mostly-failed coup.

    BettyWhiteInHD,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    CanadaPlus,

    Nah. That was basically Cold War propaganda, partly spread by ex-Nazis covering their asses after losing to “subhumans”. Russia fought the same way every country did in it’s recent wars.

    Man I miss AskHistorians.

    brain_in_a_box,

    No, not at all; that’s a myth started by Nazi propagandists to explain why they were losing to the Soviets, and it was picked up by USA propagandists during the cold war.

    ZapataCadabra,

    Pretty much every assuming USians have about Russia comes from Nazi propaganda.

    CanadaPlus,

    Oh, and Ukraine is also populous. It has a quarter of Russia’s population, about, so human wave wouldn’t win anyway.

    TheAnonymouseJoker,
    @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

    Pentagon said last year in a press briefing that Russia could keep up this war for 40 years at current rate. You sure USA and Europe can last even one year? Russia also has allies in China and India, in case West thought for even one moment about uniting.

    tastysnacks,

    Depends what you’re talking about. This war started in 2014 so its already been 9 years.

    CanadaPlus,

    Russia also has allies in China and India

    Press X to doubt.

    Pentagon said last year in a press briefing that Russia could keep up this war for 40 years at current rate.

    Could you link that? It goes against everything I’ve read and I can’t find it myself.

    TheAnonymouseJoker,
    @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

    Russia also has allies in China and India

    Press X to doubt.

    I do not think you are capable of learning anything, if you seriously say things that are opposite of reality.

    CanadaPlus,

    Right back at you, although I assume you’re plenty capable at learning other things.

    AssortedBiscuits,
    @AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net avatar

    Press X to doubt.

    India ramping up trade in oil and gas with Russia while refusing to even offer the most milquetoast condemnation of Russia’s invasion on the world stage haven’t clued you in?

    CanadaPlus,

    Call me when they do more than not get involved.

    India and China are fair-weather friends to Russia. India is also an increasingly close fair-weather friend of the West. Both the West and India see themselves as adversaries with China.

    ThereRisesARedStar,

    Call me when they do more than not get involved.

    Russia’s economy would have collapsed a year ago without India buying their gas.

    CanadaPlus,

    So you think the neutral action would be an embargo, then? Buying gas at a heavy discount doesn’t seem very political to me, or to the Western leaders for that matter.

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    Nobody who has even a modicum of understanding of geopolitics doubts this. India and Russia have a very strong relationship that goes back to the days of USSR which was one of the biggest forces that helped liberate India from western colonization. Meanwhile, Russia losing the war would be an utter disaster for China. US is very openly trying to surround China militarily, and Russia acts as a shield in the west. The worst possible outcome for China would be the west managing to destabilize Russia and put a pro western government in power. If there was even the slightest chance that Russia could lose this conflict then China would step in.

    yata,

    Nobody who has even a modicum of understanding of geopolitics doubts this. India and Russia have a very strong relationship that goes back to the days of USSR which was one of the biggest forces that helped liberate India from western colonization.

    Only if you believe your own propaganda, because none of that occurred at all.

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    None of what occurred? If you’re gonna lie then at least lie about something that can’t be easily googled.

    CanadaPlus,

    I disagree. The Cold War is ancient history and China’s probably just as happy carving up Russia as living beside it.

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    What do you base this on besides vibes?

    CanadaPlus, (edited )

    OP gave me their vibes, and I responded with my vibes. Actual facts about the future of geopolitics are hard to come by (until they happen).

    GaveUp,

    Give any example or argument that shows China would want to carve up Russia

    CanadaPlus,

    More territory is good, if the opportunity would present itself this would make China stronger. They also don’t want another Xinjiang they have to genocide, though, so I imagine they wouldn’t actually annex much. Maybe just take back the old Qing cities and puppet the rest.

    GaveUp,

    Like actual material evidence that China would want to do it and not just fantasy theory crafting in your mind

    This is pure projection on what you’d do if you ran a country

    CanadaPlus,

    They fight over territory with India all the time. And some of their other neighbors too, I think.

    If I ran China, I’d make nice with the West, accept immigrants, put in a low wealth cap and expand the size and scope of their basic income. I would get executed by a coup early in the processes. The guys that do run China are allowed to do so because they feed nationalist, protectionist ideas that actually appeal to both the masses and the elite. So yeah, if it advances China’s position with low risks, they’ll probably do it.

    PS before anyone comes at me for being dictator of China, that was specified in the scenario.

    GaveUp,

    Yea cause colonial era borders drawn by the British are dumb and only colonizers would respect those

    Did China used to own all of the Russia empire?

    CanadaPlus,

    All borders are made up.

    Northern borders were not defined in ancient times, but Vladivostok at least was theirs.

    420blazeit69,

    Every major head of state lived through the Cold War.

    Alaskaball,
    @Alaskaball@hexbear.net avatar

    For example, Joe Biden was literally born when the battle of Stalingrad of World War 2 was occurring. Biden’s literally old enough to have lived in the same era as the generation that lived during the American Civil War were dying out.

    Anyone that was born in the 70s, for a brief time, lived on the same earth at the same time as the last living emancipated American slaves still drew their breath.

    “Ancient history” is closer to us who are alive than we can truly perceive and comprehend. The past’s heavy hands rest on our shoulders, burdening the present with the acts performed hitherto each passing minute.

    A quote:

    ‘Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past. The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living.’

    DPRK_Chopra,
    @DPRK_Chopra@hexbear.net avatar

    Honestly it’s amazing to me coming out of the hexbear bubble for the last three years how uninformed westerners actually are about geopolitics. There no reason at all to belive this besides you want it to be true.

    yata,

    I don’t think I have ever seen such a clear cut example of projection as your comment.

    Gelamzer,

    Ancient history is when less thsn 35 years ago

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    US literally says it wants to prevent China from developing and has surrounded it with military bases, but whatever you say buddy. The brains of Chinese leaders aren’t as smooth as yours.

    420blazeit69,

    is somehow losing to the minor Western allies

    How are you defining “losing” here? They’re occupying the separatist parts of Ukraine and can do so indefinitely.

    CanadaPlus,

    Their original objective was to topple the government in Kiev, and they’ve gotten fairly continuously further from that. Saying they’re winning has “Mission Accomplished!” energy at this point.

    They’re occupying Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea if that’s what you mean, although it’s in question if they can do that or anything else including exist indefinitely.

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Their original objective was to topple the government in Kiev

    Citation needed.

    CanadaPlus,

    Here’s a map of the invasion a few weeks in. Kiev (Киев if you can’t read Cyrillic) is the capital of the nation. What does it look like they tried to achieve right off the bat?

    Edit: Oooh, Wikipedia has an animation if it’s still not clear.

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Lmao, okay.

    420blazeit69,

    Their original objective was to topple the government in Kiev

    According to who? If you read the article from U.S. military analysts posted elsewhere in this thread, not even they think that was the point of the early war thrust towards Kiev.

    Interesting you mention “Mission Accomplished” – would you say the U.S. and its media did a good job of accurately informing the public about the War on Terror? Would you say they had good intentions?

    CanadaPlus,

    According to who? If you read the article from U.S. military analysts posted elsewhere in this thread, not even they think that was the point of the early war thrust towards Kiev.

    All I see is a chain of threads that go mostly nowhere. No, a wargame from 2002 is not relevant.

    420blazeit69,

    Here is the comment with the article I referred to.

    CanadaPlus,

    Yeah, that’s the one I’m talking about. Is it buried somewhere in the tiny print of the image of some magazine that somebody has highlighted all over?

    CascadeOfLight,

    Man where the fuck is that forest, all I can see around here are a bunch of trees.

    420blazeit69,

    Had you bothered to read the article you’d see it’s not talking about a 2002 war game, but the ongoing war in Ukraine.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    What did they decide the Kiev thing was about? Was it a botched attempt at a decapitation strike to prevent basically everything else that happened?

    420blazeit69,

    It’s very much worth a read. The broad strokes are:

    • There’s a notable difference between the attack towards Kiev and the attack in the separatist regions (it also talks about attacks in southern Ukraine outside the separatist regions, but I think it says they’re basically similar to the Kiev attack).
    • The attack in the separatist regions were to hold territory with an amenable population. So you have a lot of troops, tons of artillery, and they dug in elaborate fortifications that they will actually stay and defend.
    • The attack towards Kiev was an opportunistic raid to divert troops from the main thrust of the attack in thr separatist regions. The article talks about similar raids the Russian Empire did in the Napoleonic Wars, the Union calvalry did in the U.S. Civil War, pretty sure it mentions a Soviet one in WWII, etc. It involved much less artillery because it wasn’t intended to hold ground and they wanted to avoid unnecessarily antagonizing civilians they didn’t want to govern anyway.
    • On that last point, the article also talks about how Russian missile strikes have largely avoided the most damaging civilian targets. It gives an example of striking an electrical substation that converts electricity into a type usable by trains instead of striking electrical infrastructure that is more general purpose (and would shut down broader civilian electricity, too).

    The Kiev attack’s goal appears to have been “disrupt, divert, and if you see opportunities, take them.” I bet if the Ukrainian government had shown signs of folding or if the defense of Kiev had been weaker they would have pushed for more, but that didn’t happen, the separatist regions were taken successfully, and the Russian Kiev column had no more reason to be there.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Okay, sure. That fits.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Well, there war goals were to protect Donbass, kill a shitload of Nazis, and de-militarize Ukraine. Plans change but it still looks like they’re doing what they set out to do.

    yata,

    It is funny how you critical thinkers uncritically regurgitate Putin propaganda without any hesitation.

    CanadaPlus,

    Ukraine is looking plenty militerised, and more pro-Western than ever.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    There are a finite number of 18-35 year old men.

    CanadaPlus, (edited )

    “Kill nearly every young man in Ukraine” is their main path to victory, but Russia has only about 4x the population of Ukraine, so they’ll have to mind their casualty ratios pretty well. And avoid any more coups.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Presumably the young men of Ukraine will realize that throwing themselves on to the enemy guns is a losing proposition at some point before that but who knows?

    CanadaPlus,

    It’s not though. Russia, even assuming continued political unity, may well run out of weapons to give to it’s troops, and then their K:D ratio will pass 4:1 easily.

    Apologies if we already discussed this, I’ve spent way too much time in this thread already and it’s blending together.

    BigNote,

    It’s not just the US though. The European powers are far more firmly committed. It’s not at all clear that the rest of NATO will simply walk away if/when the US does. Especially the former Soviet nations; this is not a fucking game to them. The loss of US support would be huge, but I don’t see a universe in which the Europeans just roll over for Putin once the US loses interest.

    Sinonatrix,

    I have to imagine direct intervention would’ve happened already if it was going to. Why let the Ukrainians get shoved into a meat grinder first? If you’re America: it’s good business and sells more guns. If you’re actually reliant on the buffer zone then it’s really not a game, as you say.

    yata,

    I have to imagine direct intervention would’ve happened already if it was going to.

    Apparently you are completely unaware of the existence of nuclear weapons.

    peeonyou,

    if all the US / EU weapon stockpiles get wiped out then the US makes a mint resupplying everyone for the next war, which will be with China using Taiwan as the proxy

    jabjoe,
    @jabjoe@feddit.uk avatar

    The US being unreliable is what will cause a full on EU army. Putin is on the EU’s doorstep and former Soviet are in the EU. The EU can’t ignore Putin’s aggression.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    I wish them all the best. Watching Europe absolutely eat shit and collapse trying to fight would be hilarious.

    Notably - America will 100% hang them out to dry rather than committing significant forces.

    Also, you know, the really painfully obvious thing - The only people who want Russia to attack Europe are the Baltics and some of the more unhinged right wing factions in Poland.

    jabjoe,
    @jabjoe@feddit.uk avatar

    The EU basically have to do it if the US is going off into isolationism. Russia is a far away problem to the US, but not the EU.

    If the first iteration of an EU army wasn’t great, in anything serious, the UK’s army would join forces with it.

    Russia has shown itself willing to invade, but also not a fearsome force. So if it tries another former Soviet block country, it will be made to fail. With or without the US.

    yata,

    Also, you know, the really painfully obvious thing - The only people who want Russia to attack Europe are the Baltics and some of the more unhinged right wing factions in Poland.

    Pretty funny how you completely ignore all of the Russian Putin controlled talking heads who have threatened attacking Europe and the Batlics on a daily basis since Russia invaded Ukraine.

    But “painfully obvious things” is definitely something you understand all about, huh?

    Awoo,

    The European powers are far more firmly committed.

    So firmly committed that america had to blow up one of germany’s pipelines? Are you having a fucking laugh?

    Everyone I speak to, you know, normal people, thinks this is a fucking stupid distraction from domestic politics and the consistently declining standard of living we are seeing. America has ended european prosperity with this shit and it won’t recover for 50 years. You think people here haven’t noticed that?

    sibe,

    America has ended european prosperity

    USA invaded Ukraine? That’s news to me

    CascadeOfLight,

    No it was… you know… the thing

    https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/4676bdb6-2e57-4b91-822c-46a7b2c12757.png

    yata,

    Ah, the completely made up thing. Yes, that makes perfect sense in your imaginary world.

    Awoo,

    The US assisted in the 2014 fascist coup that led to the fascist transitionary government, the deployment of all the fascist militias to attacking the donbas, and the 8 year long civil war that led to Russia eventually invading.

    Your mindset on this shit is that it began in 2022 which is false, the US has been stoking it since 8 years earlier. If you want we could go even further back though, Operation Aerodynamic was the US operation to fund, arm and support fascists in Ukraine in order to destabilise the soviet union. Absolutely none of this would be happening today without the US’ historic support of fascists.

    sibe,

    So USA took Crimea not Russia because their puppet president was overthrown in 2014?

    Awoo,

    Crimean independence goes as far back as the 1991 Soviet collapse. Acting like it is only a 2014 thing is also nonsense.

    On Jan. 20, 1991, voters were asked whether they wanted the re-establishment of the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic. 94.3 percent or 1,343,825 of the 1,441,019 voters who cast ballots voted yes. (81.5% turnout)

    In 1994 voters were asked whether they were in favour of greater autonomy within Ukraine, whether residents should have dual Russian and Ukrainian citizenship, and whether presidential decrees should have the status of laws. All three proposals were approved. The worst of them being 77% saying Yes.

    In 2014 they conducted a referendum asked voters whether they wanted to rejoin Russia as a federal subject, or if they wanted to restore the 1992 Crimean constitution and Crimea’s status as a part of Ukraine. It had 89% voter turnout and 97% said yes.

    If liberals care so much about democracy, and what people actually want, liberals should also care about the fact it is clearly something Crimeans wanted. The “taking of Crimea” was a referendum vote, and very little else. The way liberals always talk of it as an invasion is incorrect, in particular because Russia already ran the port, and already ran the military checkpoints into and out of the region. They were already there.

    s0ykaf,
    @s0ykaf@hexbear.net avatar

    the US has been stoking it since 8 years earlier

    way more than that

    america knew what they were doing in late 2000s when they started the ukraine into nato bullshit; a lot of important people, including some ghouls, said russia would see it as an existential threat. i mean, fuck, angela merkel was saying that back then

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    From a far enough perspective this conflict goes back to like Napoleon. When was the first time a European power decided that they could definitely take control of Russia before winter?

    PolandIsAStateOfMind,
    @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

    Napoleon at first wanted to divide Europe with Russia, he did also think attacking it is bad idea. Several diplomatic fuckups and certain serial traitor* activity later it came to blows.

    *Talleyrand. Biographers place quite a big role in sabotaging France and Russia agreement on him. It seems correct looking as how the European politics 200 years later are still largely based on the ones he took very active part in establishing. Also his life was wild, he served all French governments from Louis XVI to Charles X and betrayed every single one of them except Jacobins who didn’t trusted him and kicked him out of France.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Good to know. Thank you for the information.

    420blazeit69,

    That’s the same Angela Merkel that admitted the Minsk agreements weren’t done in good faith, rather, they were just done to create time to build the Ukranian military.

    yata,

    Your mindset on this shit is that it began in 2022 which is false,

    No, that is a complete strawman of your own fabrication.

    5714,

    People like Merkel didn’t exactly think about long-term prosperity, given their climate policies. Energy shocks would’ve been, I assume, much stronger if they only started to happen in the 30s. The economic consequences (energy inflation, supply chain crisis) were not considered, although people have warned. Some acted (I think fennoscandic countries implemented effective heating regimes in the early 10s already for example), but many didn’t learn from the 1970s energy shock caused by energy dependency on incompatible political systems and Russia’s disorganisation of representation in the 2000s. Sanctions/disentanglement would’ve been necessary in the 2000s when Russia became centered around Putin.

    SOL is high enough to defend against fascism. Don’t fall for the propaganda of imperialists.

    This war is so bad already, but it could be much worse (even with MAD).

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    People like Merkel didn’t exactly think about long-term prosperity, given their climate policies.

    I think that’s mostly ideological. War is something that exists within the Liberal world view, but obstacles to unlimited growth of profits don’t. They can reckon with geopolitical conflicts but global warming does the same thing to them that trying to unlock your dad’s memories does if you’re a bene gesserit.

    5714,

    Climate change isn’t mitigated just by disorienting from economic growth since status quo is so bad already. Growth politics are insufficient - not building another refinery isn’t enough to combat the fossil north. Many economies, including Germany’s vehicle industry, need to be completely restructured and there it is just remotely interesting for climate change mitigation whether there’s differential (non-fossil) growth.

    Awoo,

    This is nonsense from an american perpsective.

    The reality here is that america is not a friend of europe. Those european leaders were pursuing what was best for europe, and america saw that as moving away from it.

    Thus america set out to destabilise europe with exactly the same mindset it used in the middle east, and it has succeeded. As a result of blowing up pipelines and starting wars it has forced europe into vassalisation by way of creating energy dependence on it instead of itself or anyone else.

    You act like what’s best for america is best for europeans because you think everyone in the world is your vassal to be directed. You need to piss off and focus on yourselves and stop intefering with everyone else in the world. Everywhere the US pokes its nose into ends up worse off than it did before.

    And the EU even recognises this, it understands it has been vassalised now and is working on resolving it.

    They’ve completely fucked us over. And if you speak to anyone on the street here, taxi drivers, etc, you’d hear the same thing over and over again, Americans aren’t viewed as our friends anymore, they did this shit to us and a lot of people know it.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    I don’t know why people keep thinking America is anything other than a paritcularly traitorous viper after the way we’ve treated literally every ally ever for centuries. Like at some point someone must have noticed a pattern.

    PolandIsAStateOfMind,
    @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

    At this point it’s like the fable of frog and scorpion (frogs should know that scorpion can remain submerged up to 48 hours).

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Open circulatory system gang stay wining.

    5714,

    Imperialist guilt is not going to solve the anti-imperialist struggles.

    Tester,

    I think many people are forgetting that the larger army, vastly outnumbering Ukrainian resources in numbers, has not won a victory since the beginning of the invasion. And only presents a problem because the 2 countries cannot reliably use air power to overcome 1st WW trench warfare. Russia has defenses, but no ability to move forward. They are just trying to hold on to what they took in those first few months and are very slowly failing at that. If Ukraine can keep going, supported by the West, Russia will lose. I do not think Russia will use nukes – any use of a nuke is basically on Russia’s own land – according to them – and will affect them as much as Ukraine. But the question of ending the war is an interesting one. Do we see Russia continuing the war if they lose most of their ill-gotten territorial gains? What happens to those insecure areas? Are people going to rebuild, i.e. invest scarce resources in unstable areas? Or will they just become dead zones, DMZ borders?

    Annakah69,

    Ukraine will run out of material before they reach the Azov sea. You can calculate this yourself based on the verified losses and land gained. In addition manpower isn’t infinite for Ukraine.

    LeateWonceslace,

    Everyone who supports Russia is a fascist.

    Flaps,

    Where did she state she was supporting Russia

    Annakah69,

    You are suffering from brain worms. In your world anything that isn’t Slava Ukraina = Russian Support = fascism.

    Tester,

    You are mentioning 2 different resources: 1. Materiel, 2. Manpower. After an initial bumpy start where Ukraine did indeed lose a few valuable pieces of equipment, you cannot point to any significant loses in the last month – except on the Russian side. And Russia does not have extensive resources thanks to the international sanctions. Russia is now moving troops from one point of attack to another, meaning they no longer have reserves to apply. They have already gone through the prison population, and the lasty conscription drive caused many people to move abroad. They are now conscripting people who have the least motivation to fight and giving them little training. These are death sentences. Meanehile, Ukraine continues to be supported by Western financials and technology. You are perhaps expecting a “blowout” scenario like in Kherkov last year. But placing a greater value on life, Ukraine has been going slow and carefully to minimize losses on thier side. The exact thing you see as a weakness is actually resource protection.

    Annakah69,

    Check it out: oryxspioenkop.com/…/attack-on-europe-documenting-….

    Ukraine doesn’t have enough Bradleys and Leapords to reach the sea using current tactics.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Russia has defenses, but no ability to move forward.

    You don’t play RTS games, do you? The fun thing about a strong defensive line is that you can kill a whole lot of their guys for every one of your guys that they kill, and if you have enough guys they’re going to run out long before you do.

    What happens to those insecure areas?

    The Nazis probably genocide the Russian speaking Ukrainians that live there, either by driving them out using terror, or just killing them all. Probably a combination of both.

    Tester,

    It seems you do not play RTS games – ignoring the fact that those are exactly like modern warfare /s – you would know that certain systems are incredibly effective against certain other systems. Like StA missiles against Russian fighter jets and helicopters which is why you do not see them in the air much at all, and certainly not to a militarily significant degree. Perhaps you are suggesting that the Russian defenses are so powerful that Ukraine will die trying to take those hills? For every weapon, there’s a counter. The Russians have mined huge areas of the occupied lands and it is indeed slow going. Slow, but continuous for the Ukrainians. It’s sad that you see this war with real tragedy and absolute senselessness as a game.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    That’s nice.

    tuga,

    has not won a victory since the beginning of the invasion

    Gotta have a highly specific definition of “victory” to say something like this

    LeateWonceslace,

    Russia’s first failure was being a Fascist state that relies on Nazis for their openly imperialist agenda.

    Your biggest failure is being a fascist that doesn’t even realize it.

    tuga,

    You’re a child

    yata,

    Again, you guys are basically doing nothing but projecting. One of you hexbear brigaders literally thought comparing the real world to video games made for a good example to back up your claims.

    Tester,

    Well, let’s use the Russian definitions… Did they take Kiev within 3 days? No. Did they hold Kherson? No. Are they able to stop the Ukrainians? No. There has not been any significant ground taken by the Russians in the last few months. Were they able to defend against Ukrainian attacks on the Black Sea? No. After losing their Moskva flagship, they still are suffering attacks on infrastructure, warchips, and bridges. So I am happy to use the limited in context term of victory, while not being so pendantic that it loses meaning.

    420blazeit69,

    Did they take Kiev within 3 days?

    This was never a goal, as even American military analysts will tell you.

    Did they hold Kherson?

    This is outside the separatist regions.

    Are they able to stop the Ukrainians?

    The front has not moved appreciably in almost a year.

    Tester,

    aljazeera.com/…/analysis-ukraine-rolls-back-6-mon…

    420blazeit69,

    Assessment of Ukraine’s counteroffensive suggests it has retaken 253sq km (98sq miles) of its territory since June.

    Less than 100 square miles.

    WldFyre,

    Ah well since you quoted the actual number now the point is moot, good argument! Lol

    Flaps,

    Yes?

    yata,

    No?

    yata,

    That was definitely the goal. Your link doesn’t contain anything that supports your claim at all.

    This is outside the separatist regions.

    You seem to suffer from a very short memory, Russian literally annexed Kherson.

    Nightcastle,

    Did they take back all the Russian speaking territories actually in question? Yes

    CanadaPlus,

    The city of Dnipro would disagree.

    420blazeit69,

    That’s outside the separatist regions.

    yata,

    Russias referendum of annexation disagrees with your arbitrarily defined “separatist regions”.

    CanadaPlus,

    It is Russian-speaking like OP specified, though, as well as Ukraine’s 4th largest city.

    If they only cared about Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk they had them and could have done nothing new, but they tried to take the whole country and so now here we are.

    420blazeit69,

    They never tried to take the whole country. That’s just fantasy and doesn’t make sense for a dozen reasons.

    About two thirds of Dnipro speaks Russian at home, but ethnic Russians are only 25-30% of the population (see “Demographics”). I would imagine this is why the city is predominantly not separatists.

    CanadaPlus,

    I mean, it used to be more pro Russian, but then Russia changed a lot of minds by actually showing up in 2014.

    They never tried to take the whole country. That’s just fantasy and doesn’t make sense for a dozen reasons.

    Riiight.

    420blazeit69,

    So you acknowledge it’s not part of the separatist regions. Why would Russia want to occupy hostile territory?

    And don’t take my word (and common sense) for Russia not trying to conquer the whole of Ukraine; that’s what U.S. military analysts think. Or are they Russian propagandists?

    CanadaPlus,

    Why would Russia want to occupy hostile territory?

    I don’t know, ask the Chechens, or any number of similar ethnic minorities that are part of the last intact European empire. Also, hexbears stop linking me to the same weird compilation of illegible and irrelevant crap.

    420blazeit69,

    That link is perfectly legible and incredibly relevant. You just want to pull the “if you don’t have sources I demand them and if you do they don’t matter” bullshit.

    CanadaPlus,

    I never demanded sources, because you’re right, it’s incredibly easy to produce a shitty source. They’re mostly useful for uncontroversial things where there’s a lot of subject matter experts with no real stake in the exact answers.

    If you actually wanted to convince me Russia wasn’t trying to conquer Ukraine, I guess you’d have to convince me I don’t remember the winter of '22 right. I saw the shit happen, and I can read behind the lines well enough to know that when someone launches a full-scale invasion of a smaller neighbor starting with their capital, they mean to put it under their control, one way or another.

    420blazeit69,

    I didn’t say you demanded sources; I said you’re doing the reddit debatelord bit of “if you don’t have sources I demand them and if you do they don’t matter.” I had already provided a source, so of course it didn’t matter.

    I see you’re still refusing to read that source, which talks in detail about the various parts of the initial months of the war, including the northern attack towards Kiev.

    CanadaPlus,

    I said you’re doing the reddit debatelord bit of “if you don’t have sources I demand them and if you do they don’t matter.” I had already provided a source, so of course it didn’t matter.

    I’ll admit I’ve done that before, but… yeah, it’s useless and I found that out. Same story if I gave a source for my thing unprompted. You’d tell me it’s just CIA propaganda or something.

    I see you’re still refusing to read that source, which talks in detail about the various parts of the initial months of the war, including the northern attack towards Kiev.

    I literally can’t read it very well. Does it expand on hexbear or something? I guess I could download it and zoom in, but why? You know as well as I do that one magazine photo won’t change either of our minds. If Biden himself came out and said it I’d say Biden was wrong. There are no special authorities on Putin’s motives.

    Now, if you want to avoid being a debatelord, we could just stop now. Debate is useless, I just didn’t want to agree by silence.

    420blazeit69,

    You’d tell me it’s just CIA propaganda or something.

    And you know this because…? It is actually possible to dismiss some unreliable/contradicted sources, accept others, and view more iffy sources with skepticism but not write them off entirely.

    I literally can’t read it very well.

    It’s extremely easy to read on your phone if you zoom in. You also mentioned that you could download it, like a PDF. You just don’t want to read it for some reason.

    CanadaPlus,

    And you know this because…? It is actually possible to dismiss some unreliable/contradicted sources, accept others, and view more iffy sources with skepticism but not write them off entirely.

    Yeah, I don’t buy it. Even if I thought you were a big thinker and not just an internet person, what somebody meant by something is a judgement call, inherently.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    I have here in my hand a list of 205 . . . a list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party and who nevertheless are still working and shaping policy in the State Department. .

    I wouldn’t trust those US Military Analysts!

    yata,

    They definitely did try to take the whole country, but had to change goals when that failec spectacularly. Then Putin concocted a new narrative and desperately wanted everyone to forget about the original one. Based on the copy paste comments from the hexbear brigade, it seems like you guys did in fact uncritically swallow all of Putns koolaid and forget very recent history in favour of the new fictional reality.

    SeborrheicDermatitis,

    Well they won in Mariupol, that was a pretty big win. That’s their only major victory in the whole campaign though, for sure. They are losers in this war, though Ukrainians are hardly winning, either. Everybody loses except arms manufacturers, pretty much.

    Tester,

    In war, there are only losers. Agreed! And especially, in this completely senseless war.

    GBU_28,

    But that’s a relatively small number of people.

    . To be fair they did get bhakmut… Lol

    radiofreeval,
    @radiofreeval@hexbear.net avatar

    Or what’s left of it

    nat_turner_overdrive,
    @nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net avatar

    I’m pretty sure once Ukraine has thrown away enough lives trying to get to the first line of defense, Russia is going to use their mobilized army to roll up the coast line all the way up to Transnistria.

    Tester,

    And this is based on the overwhelming success of the current Russian attempts?

    nat_turner_overdrive,
    @nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net avatar

    Yes

    By this time next year Ukraine will not have any coastline under their control.

    Tester,

    I’m willing to take that bet. Just like Russia will take Kiev in 3 days. Just like Ukraine would be under Russian control in a matter of months. Just like many other Russian PR predictions, worthless.

    nat_turner_overdrive,
    @nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net avatar

    …Those predictions were Western ones, not Russian ones.

    chowder,

    So western lol

    nat_turner_overdrive,
    @nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net avatar

    Oh damn I didn’t realize Belarus was Russia, this changes everything

    chowder,

    Oh damn I didn’t realize Belarus was western, this changes everything.

    nat_turner_overdrive,
    @nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net avatar

    Someone not involved in the operation and also not even from Russia doesn’t really matter, particularly not a shit talker like lukashenko-tired that motherfucker says all kinds of crazy shit

    chowder,

    Not involved? He let an invasion be lauched from his territory. That’s pretty damn involved.

    nat_turner_overdrive,
    @nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net avatar

    My landlord doesn’t know shit about what I launch from his territory

    SeborrheicDermatitis,

    I would bet you £10 (or dollar equivalent) that this will not happen, to be donated to a charity of the other’s choice, honestly. Absolutely no chance Russia takes Odessa and reaches the Romanian border.

    nat_turner_overdrive,
    @nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net avatar

    What is it with liberals and making bets they absolutely will not honor? Two redditors already owe me donations because they predicted Russia would be pushed back over the Russian border within six months, back in mid-2022. You should donate to any charity you like instead of whatever weird shit this is.

    SeborrheicDermatitis,

    I don’t have £10 spare right now I’m really struggling sorry, but I plan on having it in a year God Willing. I would’ve done it but the point is I am certain of it not coming to pass.

    PS I am not a liberal, how dare you >:(

    nat_turner_overdrive,
    @nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net avatar

    “let’s bet money on a conflict with bodies piling up” is not a sentiment I would expect from a leftist

    SeborrheicDermatitis,

    I think that is a pretty clear misrepresentation. I was simply saying in a dramatic way that the notion of Russia occupying Odessa and the land all the way down to the Romanian border is outlandish.

    nat_turner_overdrive,
    @nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net avatar

    Then say that next time rather than proposing a wager determined by the deaths and maiming of thousands?

    SeborrheicDermatitis,

    Sure

    nat_turner_overdrive,
    @nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net avatar

    rat-salute-2

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    They probably won’t have an 18-35 year old men under their control, either. I’m kind of surprised they can still find people willing to die for this bullshit.

    SoyViking,
    @SoyViking@hexbear.net avatar

    There’s a reason why they’re kidnapping men off the streets and press-ganging them to fight for the Kiev regime. The slava ukraini epic marvel stuff is not making enough people volunteer to go die in a minefield.

    BigNote,

    I’ll put it on the giant pile of overconfident predictions about Russian military prowess that we already have. Kiev in 3 days, amirite?

    nat_turner_overdrive,
    @nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net avatar

    visible-disgust

    Westerners predicted Kiev in three days.

    at_an_angle,

    twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/…/mediaviewer?current…

    Get fucked.

    nat_turner_overdrive,
    @nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net avatar

    lmao, calm down liberal

    also your link is bad https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/a92403b7-0c75-4231-bbc6-eaa4434ac279.png

    at_an_angle,

    Eat me.

    nat_turner_overdrive,
    @nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net avatar

    https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/18ced518-93ad-4e96-9555-bd3bd1478b2b.png

    Maybe this is just happening on our instance, but your image was removed. Maybe a direct link?

    ThomasMuentzner,
    @ThomasMuentzner@hexbear.net avatar

    they where in kiew the first day ? And it was hugly successfull because of the Kiew Raid they Closed the landbridge in 3 days ! the biggest ojective by far ,its securs crimea… they literally Seized a Territory the size of Belgium and Netherlands including the Black Soil and Europes Greats NPP , trapped elite units of ukraine in mariupol and blockaded the Main water atery of Ukraine (dnepr ) and Strategiclly also odessa …

    In my book Russia was hugly succesfull , if russia would not have secured the Landbridge …

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Yes, the conditions of an offensive at the very beginning of the war are still extremely relevant now.

    GBU_28,

    “thrown away”

    Riffraffintheroom,

    I mean marching a bunch of barely-trained 50 year old conscripts into known killzones or over minefields is absolutely throwing those lives away.

    Tankiedesantski,

    “Special de-mining operation”

    kneel_before_yakub,

    Go step on a mine like your ukkkrainian heros

    GBU_28,

    Lol

    nat_turner_overdrive,
    @nat_turner_overdrive@hexbear.net avatar

    A few weeks of NATO training and then sending them into minefields without sufficient artillery support or any air support at all is absolutely, 100%, throwing away lives. Particularly since anybody not huffing their own farts has known from day one that Russia would be able to keep any land they really want, there is no path to victory for Ukraine and there never has been without direct NATO intervention.

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    And this is precisely how NATO likes it, as long as Ukraine isn’t part of NATO then there is no obligation for NATO to get involved directly. They can just keep the proxy war going as long as they see it beneficial, and then cut and run when it burns itself out.

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    I absolutely love the incomprehension on the part of liberals of why Russia didn’t just throw freshly mobilized troops into a meat grinder the way Ukraine is doing. Instead, they sensibly spent the time building multi-layer defences, and training the troops knowing that the west would push Ukraine into the offensive in order to justify all the spending.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    It is kind of unbelievable that they don’t understand a smaller country can’t just send able bodied young men in to a defensive line to get slaughtered indefinitely. Vibes based world view. You’d think there are enough gamers in the world that the average commentator would understand how “camping” works as a strategy.

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    There was an actual article in WaPo that flat out said that the west knew that Ukraine didn’t have enough equipment to do the offensive, but pushed them into it anyways because they thought their motivation and gumption would make up for it. You just can’t make this shit up:

    When Ukraine launched its big counteroffensive this spring, Western military officials knew Kyiv didn’t have all the training or weapons—from shells to warplanes—that it needed to dislodge Russian forces. But they hoped Ukrainian courage and resourcefulness would carry the day.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    How does that saying go?

    Old age and treachery will always beat youth and exuberance.

    I keep telling everyone to read Sun Tzu because he’s very specific, numerous times, about not doing this specific thing. : p

    yogthos, (edited )
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    The fact that they thought this could work shows that western sponsors of the proxy war are completely detached from reality. If they made an obvious blunder like this, one has to wonder what other terrible blunders have they been making over the past two years. It’s clearly that they’re completely out of their depth here. Yet, people still think they’re going to win because they project this level of stupidity on the Russians.

    HelixDab2,

    And only presents a problem because the 2 countries cannot reliably use air power to overcome 1st WW trench warfare

    The US has just approved the transfer of F-16s to Ukraine. So that might change soon. IIRC, Ukraine has had a shortage of airplanes to use. Russia has been very reluctant to use the airplanes that they have because they keep getting shot down, and they simply can’t replace them at the speed necessary (especially since their economy has crashed, and China is the only country that can supply them with the circuitry that they need).

    A bigger problem is that Russia has air defenses and air bases inside Russia. NATO in general has been very reluctant to transfer offensive weapons to Ukraine that would make it possible to strike those–entirely legitimate–targets inside of Russia, because that would be an escalation. But to have air superiority, you need to ensure that those SAM batteries, RADAR installations, and forward air bases are not in the picture. So to break the stalemate, Ukraine has to be able to make strikes against Russia, in Russian territory. That’s potentially very dangerous.

    If it’s allowed to grind on, Russia wins eventually, because they have a population many times the size of Ukraine, and can keep throwing bodies at them. So Ukraine needs to win air superiority, which means striking targets inside of Russia.

    Flaps,

    “The ghost of Kiev is changing the game!” " HIMARS is going to be a game changer!" “Storm shadow is going to be a game changer!” “Leopards are going to be a game changer!” “Challengers are going to be a game changer!” “F-16s are going to be a game changer!”

    How many Ukrainians need to be sent into minefields for you libs to fuckin learn.

    HelixDab2,

    Well, personally I’d support NATO troops directly opposing Russian aggression. If I had any skills worth a damn, I’d volunteer myself. Unfortunately, I’m nearly 50, and would be a greater liability to Ukrainian defenders than an asset.

    And make no mistake, this is Russian aggression. Russia is to blame for NATO’s existence, and for it’s expansion. Sweden and Finland were both quite opposed to NATO membership prior to Russia’s unwarranted invasion.

    Flaps,

    You’d support World War 3?

    HelixDab2,

    Yes.

    Just as I would have supported the second world war, had I been alive.

    It is our moral duty to oppose evil, and what Putin is doing is unambiguously evil.

    Flaps,

    If I had any skills worth a damn, I’d volunteer myself. Unfortunately, I’m nearly 50, and would be a greater liability to Ukrainian defenders than an asset.

    This is what you had to say about why you’re not in a trench shitting your pants right now yourself, even though the war in Ukraine is such a crime that you’re willing to start world War 3 over it. Of course you want war. You’re bloodthirsty when it comes to the people the state has designated as the ‘bad country’. You know who’d die in that war of yours? At first, it’d be the millions of people I teach now. Young people. They don’t want to die over your ideals for which you’re not even willing to lift a fucking finger but bitch and moan about it on the internet. When the working class recruits of that generation are coming home in coffins or disfigured and traumatized, it’s my generations turn. And so on, so forth. In a war between two corrupt states where once again dumb fucks like you have managed to convince themselves AGAIN That THIS TIME, the state isn’t lying about a war! They did it with Vietnam, they did it with Iraq twice, they did it with Afghanistan, with Yemen, with lybia and Syria, BUT THIS TIME what you’re being fed is the unqmbiguous truth! THIS TIME you must be wanting the right things! Like a third world War!

    And all that would be a best case scenario, because in that case both NATO and Russia have managed to not destroy the entire world in some nuclear armageddon. You’re willing to sacrifice millions, if not billions, of people, for some fucking vague ideals you’re not willing to do anything for yourself, over a country that’s been embroiled in civil war for the past 8 years and you didn’t give a fuck about until someone else told you to.

    HelixDab2,

    I tried to join the military when I was 22, and was turned down. I was, and am, willing to fight and die when it’s necessary to stop evil.

    As I said, and you clearly ignored, I would be a liability to Ukraine where I am right now. I am old and slow, and that would put younger, fitter people at greater risk of being killed than if I wasn’t there. What I can do is vote for politicians that will fund their military, donate money to specific units for things like buying drones or Hilux trucks to move fighters, and so on.

    I’m aware that Ukraine has a corruption problem. That’s not actually material to Russia invading and killing civilians. Louisiana has a corruption problem; that doesn’t mean that Mexico should invade and bomb New Orleans’ French Quarter.

    We’re not talking about Vietnam, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, or even Korea. I opposed our invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, because I predicted–and quite rightly–that our invasion would cost tens of thousands of civilian lives. In Syria, we should have followed through with our commitment to the rebels when Assad used chemical weapons, and we didn’t; the result has been that Assad has been free to wage war against his own people, and hundreds of thousands of Syrians have died or been displaced. But none of those are Ukraine. In Ukraine, Russia is the one killing civilians, and attacking civilians targets; Russia is the one that invaded, without provocation. There was no military attack against Russia or the people of Russia by Ukraine; Russia had stolen Ukrainian territory in 2014, but that does not make the Crimean region Russian.

    Flaps,

    Surely you were pleading China and Russia to invaded Amerika and start world War 3 back when the US invaded any of the previously mentioned (and many, many more) countries.

    Nah man most humane thing you ever did was getting rejected by the military

    HelixDab2,

    China did intervene to help Korea, and that’s why we pulled out of Korea. And who do you think was helping fund and arm the VC forces that eventually ran us out of Vietnam? We weren’t dumb enough to start WWIII over either of those then, and Russia probably isn’t dumb enough to start WWIII over NATO helping fend off their aggression now.

    catfish,

    Regarding the F16, Ukrainian pilots are going to start testing the Gripen as well, although that path is obviously far behind the F16s given the glacial pace of such developments…

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    The US has just approved the transfer of F-16s to Ukraine. So that might change soon.

    I am so hyped to see how long an F-16 lasts against the S-500 network. Whether or not NATO SEAD systems can counter the S-500 system is going to be one of the deciding factors in the course of the 21st century. It’ll also be neat to see if NATO actually commits real weaponry or holds back the good stuff for fear of it failing and revealing that the Emperor has no clothes.

    PolandIsAStateOfMind,
    @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

    I don’t think there is even need to deploy the S-500 which are pretty rare still since it entered service not long ago. Especially when older systems are enough for outdated planes like F-16, especially ones piloted by raw pilots from regularily trashed infrastructure.

    Tester,

    The F-16s will need parts, logistics, and weapons, the pilots and ground crews will need extensive training… those jets will do nothing this year. Perhaps next year though. I agree that Ukraine is fighting with one arm tied due to NATO fears of nuclear retaliation. Is that a reasonable fear? I think so. Putin is not a sane or reasonable person. And Ukraine has shown the capability to hit Russian targets within Russian territory. If the Ukrainians were allowed to hit harder, deeper, more sensitive targets in Russia, the war would escalate – Russia would not want to be seen as beaten by its little neighbor. A shame, agree or disagree, but right now, those are the rules of war that Ukraine must abide by for continued support from NATO.

    HelixDab2,

    Russia has been beaten by most of the smaller countries that it’s gone toe-to-toe against. The only particularly big win that Russia (or the USSR) has had in the past century was WWII, and that was because the USSR was getting an enormous amount of material assistance from… The US. source Russia’s aggressive actions against the Baltic countries are precisely why Estonia, Latvia, etc. joined NATO. And countries have to ask to join NATO. Without Russian aggression, there is no NATO.

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    I think many people are forgetting that the larger army, vastly outnumbering Ukrainian resources in numbers, has spent the past 9 months creating multilayered defences that the Ukrainian army has been banging their head against for the past 10 weeks. Ukraine no longer has a functioning military industry of its own or even an economy to speak of. It’s entirely dependent on the west at this point.

    NATO scrounged up all they had for this offensive, and US even ran out of shells to give having to resort to cluster munitions. NATO also trained Ukrainian soldiers. Now all of this is being lost without any actual progress being made. Ukraine hasn’t even managed to reach the first defence line being mired in the security zone.

    What we will see is that once the offensive burns itself out, Russia will start an offensive of their own against a depleted and demoralized Ukrainian army. The west will not be able to send more ammunition and equipment because it doesn’t exist, and Ukraine will have lost majority of their trained and motivated soldiers who can’t be replaced.

    Even western sources are now admitting that Ukraine is suffering far higher losses than Russia, and that this is primarily an artillery battle where Russia vastly outnumbers Ukrainian artillery. 80% of casualties were being caused by Russian artillery.

    Tester,

    Yes, artillery is at the core of Russian military doctrine. But this only means the rest of its technology is not being used. Where is air superiority? Non-existent. Russia is afraid to put aircraft in Ukrainian sights. Where are the huge tank battles? Non-existent because the Western technology makes Swiss cheese out of even their heaviest armor. I am amazed that someone can still believe in the Russian military when despite overwhelming numbers, Russia has not been able to defend itself against its neighbor, 1/5th its size and certainly less prepared for war. You think it’s a sign of victory that Russia is now using WW2 era tanks they are pulling out of storage? If anything, that shows exactly who is running out of materiel to run the war. And NATO has plenty of munitions. I think you are confusing production and capacity. Are the production of artillery and war machines too low? Yes, and NATO is addressing those issues. However, NATO has huge reserves of munitions sitting in warehouses that it hasn’t even tapped yet. Most of the donations to Ukraine have not even been of NATO’s best stock. It just happened to be a way of clearing old munitions. In some cases, both the US and Germany were going to destroy or mothball equipment only to reroute it to Ukraine. NATO is not running out of stock, it is simply getting rid of old inventory and ramping up production on new munitions. This takes time, but they are not running out. Unlike Russia… What will Russia do next? Having their Cossacks go back to fighting on horseback when the WW2 tanks run out of parts?

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    Where is air superiority? Non-existent.

    Did you somehow miss all the videos of Russian aviation taking out tanks on daily basis, or the fact that Russia does massive air strike campaigns against entire Ukraine weekly for many months now? Meanwhile, Ukraine has no air force to speak of, and at this point doesn’t even have much of air defence. What you’re saying is demonstrably false.

    Where are the huge tank battles?

    There aren’t huge tank battles because Russia is letting Ukraine blow up all their tanks in minefields and hunts them down with lancets. The battles we’ve seen so far are Ukrainian columns following a single mine clearing vehicle that gets taken out by a helicopter or artillery. Then the column ends up being stuck because it’s in a minefield, and the rest of the vehicles are systematically destroyed. These were the first two weeks of the offensive after which Ukraine abandoned the fabled NATO tactics and went back to sending penny packets of troops to get ground down by artillery.

    I am amazed that someone can still believe in the Russian military when despite overwhelming numbers, Russia has not been able to defend itself against its neighbor, 1/5th its size and certainly less prepared for war.

    That’s because you have absolutely no clue regarding the subject you’re opining on. Here’s what an actual expert has to say www.russiamatters.org/…/whats-ahead-war-ukraine

    You think it’s a sign of victory that Russia is now using WW2 era tanks they are pulling out of storage?

    What this actually shows is that Russia doesn’t even feel the need to pull out its modern equipment, they’re clearing out their old inventory the exact same way NATO is.

    NATO is not running out of stock, it is simply getting rid of old inventory and ramping up production on new munitions.

    Biden literally admitted that US ran out of high explosive shells to send. This is also admitted by mainstream media. Meanwhile, this is what the "dramatic increase in production actually looks like:

    Army Secretary Christine Wormuth separately told reporters that the U.S. will go from making 14,000 155mm shells each month to 20,000 by the spring and 40,000 by 2025.

    That’s what Russia uses on daily basis, and Russia produces over a million shells a year

    You really should spend a bit of time educating yourself instead of spreading misinformation here.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    I don’t think this person is worth arguing with. That last comment of theirs was such a comprehensively silly thing to say. “Where are the huge tank battles?” serious? This isn’t a movie. They’re chewing up the UA army with artillery. Assuming they’re not using tanks for indirect fire what would they use them for? It’s not like they need to g find the Ukrainians, they’re walking light infantry right in to prepared defenses.

    It’s also really funny that people think there’s much of a difference between a tank from 1945 and a tank from 2015 if they both die to one hit from an ATGM or modern kinetic penetrator. They’re both equally defended against machine guns, splinter, and maybe even auto cannons up to a certain point.

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    Completely agree, a lot of western propaganda relies on the fact that most people have no clue on the subject. They expect wars to look like movies or games, but real life is very different.

    whataboutshutup,

    What this actually shows is that Russia doesn’t even feel the need to pull out its modern equipment, they’re clearing out their old inventory the exact same way NATO is.

    Why? Do they enjoy dragging this conflict for more than a year? Is there some reason to why they don’t use some sci-fi orbital blaster?

    If you lived there, Ukraine or Russia, doesn’t matter, and have served, you’d knew how deeply you are wrong. Bet you didn’t, and I did. Post-soviet army culture is what makes me suspect they don’t have anything breathtaking you think they have in worthy quantities.

    Opposing western propaganda is one thing. Not taking a moment to understand you are high on russian one is another. Just take a glance at this quote of yours and say it’s not copium.

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    Because Russia realizes that this proxy war can escalate into a real war with NATO, and they’re obviously going to save their best weapons for that.

    Meanwhile, the whole war was sold as a special military operation in Russia, meaning that Russia is not on a war footing and life for a typical person in Russia hasn’t actually changed all that much. This is basically equivalent to when US went to destroy Iraq, and most people in US didn’t really connect the war with their day to day lives.

    Russian economy is currently growing at 4.9% as even western publications admit, they’ve managed to reorient their trade towards the east. On the other hand, many western countries are entering recession now, and there’s massive political unrest all over Europe.

    You don’t have to be high on Russian propaganda to know this because all of this is freely admitted in western media. The fact that you don’t understand any of this shows just how ignorant you are regarding the topic you’re attempting to debate here.

    rusticus, (edited )

    lol get out of here with your Russian propaganda. No one believes you. Go back to lemmy.grad or hexbear. Lmao.

    It’s a proxy war dude. No one wins until one side exhausts their resources. And it’s the west v Russia. Yes, Russia whose GDP is about the same as the Uk. lol.

    Edit: Hi hexbear/lemmy.grad shills! So bizarre to get significantly more upvotes than the brigaded comments from dear comrades.

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

    •
    ShimmeringKoi,
    @ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net avatar

    Having comrades is the natural state of humanity, you should try it

    rusticus,

    There’s nothing humane about the comrades at hexbear and lemmy.grad.

    ShimmeringKoi,
    @ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net avatar

    hitler-detector

    Flaps,

    Easy there Hitler

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Hey man, we’re not the ones who decided to use Ukraine as disposable munitions to destabilize Russia in preparation for a resource grab. We’re just calling plays from the sidelines. If we had any say in this DC, the Kremlin, and the Rada would all be smoking pits in the ground.

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    “They are less than human” I say while definitely holding the high ground in this conversation.

    rusticus,

    Liar.

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    I’m sure you are, yes.

    rusticus,

    Who are you quoting that said “They are less than human” liar? STFU.

    PolandIsAStateOfMind,
    @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

    https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/2435794a-bd42-4918-9c62-8559e33832a0.png

    You are not even dogwhistling it now, Adolf.

    MaeBorowski,

    Yeah, nothing humane about the people who make up the instance where every user says that food, housing, and healthcare are human rights and should be made accessible to every human being, period. The one that loudly shouts the fact that trans rights are human rights and has provided one of the best safe spaces on the internet for trans people (as the large percentage of trans users that make up hexbear will themselves tell you). The one that frequently has mental health check-ins for their users and offers support to them. The one that uses its mutual aid comm to give real life material support to comrades in need. Nothing humane about them at all, no sirree.

    Talking about hexbear here, but lemmygrad is almost as based.

    sammer510,

    Nah lots of people believe him actually. You’re just very clearly stuck in a pro Western echo chamber, as all libs are. The longer this war goes on the more Ukraine loses lmao. So by all means, keep encouraging this to continue.

    Flaps,

    He even gave you sources dickweed. It’s no use trying to burst your bubble, as it’s made of steel.

    DPRK_Chopra,
    @DPRK_Chopra@hexbear.net avatar

    Fwiw, I don’t begrudge folks in the west not knowing this stuff. You’re being kept in the dark about a lot of it, to the point that you actively need to be seeking out the truth from lots of sources. Western sources are constantly overstating Ukraine’s footing in this conflict, in ways that are quite obviously fabricated if you look into it.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    A lot of people don’t really understand how limited NATO is, how badly designed a lot of NATO weapons are, and how long it’s been since NATO actually fought a proper war. NATO has this long standing, unearned veneer of invincibility. And now we’re seeing NATO equipment used without total, uncontested air support, which is the only thing NATO is really good at and which is the thing that two successive Russian government have been preparing to fight against for 70 years.

    420blazeit69,

    Just like Vietnam, right!

    Flinch,

    putin-wink

    booty,
    @booty@hexbear.net avatar

    No one believes you

    have you seen the ratio

    bazookabill,

    Did you somehow miss all the videos of Russian aviation taking out tanks on daily basis

    These videos obviously exists from both sides, but neither side has aerial supremacy, if you know what that means.

    and Russia produces over a million shells a year

    Rheinmetall alone offers to produce up to 600,000 artillery rounds for Ukraine annually, and that’s just one company.

    yogthos, (edited )
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    No, those videos don’t exist from both sides. Ukraine doesn’t have a functioning air force that can attack Russian positions.

    Rheinmetall alone offers to produce up to 600,000 artillery rounds for Ukraine annually, and that’s just one company.

    [citation needed]

    we’re talking about 155 mm shells here specifically

    honestly, I don’t know why you keep trying to argue something that’s demonstrably false, even western media openly admits the problem washingtonpost.com/…/artillery-ammunition-ukraine…

    bazookabill,

    Rheinmetall alone offers to produce up to 600,000 artillery rounds for Ukraine annually, and that’s just one company.

    [citation needed]

    e.g. tass.com/world/1614189

    we’re talking about 155 mm shells here specifically

    Indeed.

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    I see you have poor reading comprehension, because the clearly says the plan to produce it. I plan to become a billionaire in the next couple of years. The reality is that it’s bullshit because here’s the actual reality of the situation:

    Few people understand the remarkably protracted lead times necessary to increase arms production. Two or three years between commitment and delivery of even some basic munitions and materials is standard. Those NATO nations still accustomed to fight at all — meaning mostly the US, UK and France — have focused upon relatively small outputs. The factories do not exist to provide long runs of — for instance — conventional artillery ammunition any time soon.

    You’re obviously not one of these few people. Furthermore, the article says the following:

    Prices for raw materials used in arms production but not mined in EU countries have risen astronomically. The French government recently asked MBDA Missile Systems to increase its production of Mistral air-defense systems from 20 units per month, and has been offered only an increase to perhaps 40 monthly by 2025.

    The German armed forces face an ammunition shortfall demanding €20 billion worth of new orders. At the current speed of contract placement, it will be 20 years before this is achieved. Susanne Wiegand, CEO of RENK Group, which makes drivetrains for tanks, said in February that only a trickle of new orders had come in.

    Meanwhile, some manufacturers are obliged to struggle against the wider commercial difficulties of their owners. Britain’s Rolls-Royce has cut investment internationally following severe corporate difficulties. It owns the German-based mtu, which provides engines for tanks and armored vehicles. Yet mtu’s efforts to hire more staff and expand production are at odds with Rolls-Royce’s cutbacks elsewhere.

    The IISS study concludes that belief in the permanence of America’s protective shield still causes Europe’s governments to shortchange defense. Despite all the fine words since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, “no major recapitalization of armed forces or large-scale procurement to address capability has yet materialized” — even in Britain, which beats its chest loudest in defiance of Moscow.

    Meanwhile, across the Atlantic, the US too struggles to produce munitions in credible quantities for sustained combat. In World War II, President Franklin Roosevelt and Prime Minister Winston Churchill trumpeted the role of America as “the arsenal of democracy.” Today, Washington is struggling to make good on such a claim. Michael Brenes, a lecturer in history at Yale, has authored a new study that mirrors those of European critics of their own continent’s performance.

    I do encourage you to try engaging with reality going forward.

    bazookabill,

    Unrelated, but anyway, thanks for your effort!

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    How in the world is that unrelated?

    bazookabill,

    What we will see is that once the offensive burns itself out, Russia will start an offensive of their own against a depleted and demoralized Ukrainian army.

    In your dreams. Like your failed predictions of freezing Europeans running out of Russan gas and whatnot, lol, we gonna make this reality check later on, just to remind you.

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    Yeah, we’re definitely going to get a reality check sooner than later and you’re going to have to figure out how to deal with it. Meanwhile, last I checked Germany is now deindustrializing and all of Eurozone is in a recession, but hey I’m sure that has nothing to do with the fact that Europe got cut off from cheap energy.

    SeborrheicDermatitis,

    I do not think there is much evidence that the Ukrainian army is seriously demoralised or unable to make weaponry.

    Also source on the bit that Ukraine has suffered far higher losses than Russia? From what I’ve seen UK + US intelligence agencies are saying both sides have heavy losses but Russia has had higher ones overall (that is, since the start in 2022). Ukraine has probably suffered higher losses in the counteroffensive because modern warfare is defender-sided, but since February 2022? Hmm.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    unable to make weaponry.

    Didn’t Russia frag all their logistics a few months ago? I thought they finally took the gloves off and started destroying infrastructure a long time ago?

    SeborrheicDermatitis,

    Not sure if they’re targeting it that effectively, not seen articles saying so yet but might be wrong. I think they’re targeting civilian infrastructure as much as strategic infrastructure (same mistakes the Nazis made in the Blitz!).

    yogthos,
    @yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

    There’s so much evidence for this that even western media now talks about it

    You can read about the higher losses Ukraine suffers in Mearsheimer’s latest article that provides sources and citations …substack.com/…/the-darkness-ahead-where-the-ukra…

    SeborrheicDermatitis,

    Cheers, I’ll give it a read. I genuinely appreciate it.

    SeventyTwoTrillion, (edited )
    @SeventyTwoTrillion@hexbear.net avatar

    the ratio of artillery is essentially a proxy for the casualty rate because this is an artillery battle. I remember an interview with a foreign volunteer in Ukraine who claimed that most Ukrainians never even get to see a Russian soldier, and when they do, it’s the slightest glimpse before they retreat and start blasting them with artillery again.

    there’s a counterclaim that astshually it doesn’t matter that Ukraine is firing 10 times less artillery because they’re 10 times more accurate, but this is just a very strange claim; Russian artillery is superior to the West’s and any issues earlier on in the war with lots of misses have been largely solved by now

    at the end of the day, who is constantly doing counteroffensives? Ukraine, not Russia. who is constantly needing to do mobilizations? Ukraine, not Russia. who is needing to kidnap people off the streets to funnel them into the military? Ukraine, not Russia. whose country is overflowing with graveyards? Ukraine, not Russia. most of Russia’s September mobilization - the only one they’ve done - hasn’t been devoted to the battlefield yet because they’re being properly trained and nurtured for some future role, which would be impossible if Russians were dying in large numbers as Ukraine claims.

    one can be like “oh but Russia is just hiding all this stuff” but I think it’s a lot harder to hide that level of mass death than people think. if Ukraine could, I reckon they would, and they have the entire Western propaganda network at their backs.

    truthfully I don’t know exactly how many Russians and Ukrainians have died, but claims that more Russians have died than Ukrainians is genuinely comical, like “Oh, I know this person is a complete dipshit and I know to never listen to them on any take if they can be so completely moronic here,” it’s like the “100 million people died under communism” of Ukraine War talking points at this point. and I would genuinely be extremely surprised if the ratio was less than 1:2 in favor of Russia. Lukashenko thinks it’s 1:8, which is probably too high but like, he also probably has a better idea than me.

    anoncpc,

    BBC Russia and media zone make an independent project of counting Russian death, and they’re not Russian mouth piece, but ironically, their number is close to Russian MOD. lol

    420blazeit69,

    one can be like “oh but Russia is just hiding all this stuff” but I think it’s a lot harder to hide that level of mass death than people think.

    Spy satellites have the resolution to read stuff like license plates. If Russia was taking these huge losses we would have irrefutable proof of it, not stories or estimates.

    Doubledee,
    @Doubledee@hexbear.net avatar

    Are you still of the opinion that Russia is slowly losing its position and is incapable of moving forward?

    zed_proclaimer,
    @zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net avatar

    how’s this analysis working out for ya?

    Flaps, (edited )

    Ukraine can keep going, supported by the West, Russia will lose.

    You have a whole entire counteroffensive that shows the exact opposite.

    Also

    has not won a victory since the beginning of the invasion.

    Have you taken a look at a map of the current situation? That’s just straight up bullshit

    JackBruh,

    Hundreds of thousands of Muscovites have been killed since the it started. Ukraine is just giving them time to retreat because we are not barbarians.

    ThomasMuentzner,
    @ThomasMuentzner@hexbear.net avatar

    nationalism is like leprosy … a state once infected is left with his territories severed from it, its youth withered away into the now foreign grounds and its spirits broken under the Mad screams of the unrelentlessly uneffected …

    tuga,

    You’re a child

    JackBruh,

    Whataboutism

    CannotSleep420,

    Even if screeching about muh whattaboutism wasn’t a thought terminating cliche, an insult is not a whattaboutism.

    JackBruh,

    动态网自由门 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 六四天安門事件 The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 天安門大屠殺 The Tiananmen Square Massacre 反右派鬥爭 The Anti-Rightist Struggle 大躍進政策 The Great Leap Forward 文化大革命 The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 人權 Human Rights 民運 Democratization 自由 Freedom 獨立 Independence 多黨制 Multi-party system 台灣 臺灣 Taiwan Formosa 中華民國 Republic of China 西藏 土伯特 唐古特 Tibet 達賴喇嘛 Dalai Lama 法輪功 Falun Dafa 新疆維吾爾自治區 The Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region 諾貝爾和平獎 Nobel Peace Prize 劉暁波 Liu Xiaobo 民主 言論 思想 反共 反革命 抗議 運動 騷亂 暴亂 騷擾 擾亂 抗暴 平反 維權 示威游行 李洪志 法輪大法 大法弟子 強制斷種 強制堕胎 民族淨化 人體實驗 肅清 胡耀邦 趙紫陽 魏京生 王丹 還政於民 和平演變 激流中國 北京之春 大紀元時報 九評論共産黨 獨裁 專制 壓制 統一 監視 鎮壓 迫害 侵略 掠奪 破壞 拷問 屠殺 活摘器官 誘拐 買賣人口 遊進 走私 毒品 賣淫 春畫 賭博 六合彩 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Winnie the Pooh 劉曉波动态网自由门

    tuga,

    The greatest hits

    Zuzak,

    Do y’all just never notice how this never works?

    CascadeOfLight,

    NSA MASS SURVEILLANCE KENT STATE KENT STATE UNI CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY DAVID MISCAVIGE 佔領華爾街 MAY 4 1970 MASSACRE 肯特州立大学枪击事件 MAY 13 1985 MOVE BOMBING「MOVE」組織轰炸 RED SUMMER 1919 HOUSE UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES COMMITTEE 众议院非美活动调查委员会 TRAIL OF TEARS 美国本地人种族灭绝 JIM CROW SEGREGATION 吉姆·克勞法 HUMAN RIGHTS 人權 CITIZENS UNITED 联合公民诉联邦选举委员会案 SAFETY 安全 HIGH SPEED RAIL 人民共和国高速铁路 STRONG MASS LINE 群众路线 REPUBLIC OF HAWAII 夏威夷共和国 THIRTEEN COLONIES 十三殖民地 VIETNAM AFGHANISTAN IRAQ 伊拉克 EDWARD SNOWDEN 爱德华·斯诺登 SCIENTOLOGY 山達基教會 GUANTANAMO BAY DETENTION CAMP 关塔那摩湾拘押中心 NOBEL PEACE PRIZE 諾貝爾和平獎 BARACK OBAMA 贝拉克·奥巴马 COMMUNISM SOLIDARITY LABOUR ACTION ANTI-CAPITALIST PRO-REVOLUTION PROTEST MOVEMENT ANTIFA RIOT POLICE BRUTAILITY POLICE OCCUPATION PAID SUSPENSION LEFTIST COUNTER PROTEST CHARLES MANSON MANSON FAMILY JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES BORDER CONCENTRATION CAMPS MKULTRA ASSASINATE FRED HAMPTON JANE FONDA EUGENE DEBS MALCOLM X EAT THE RICH THE CRUMBLING OF AMERICA REAGANOMICS INFOWARS MANUFACTURING CONSENT FASCIST OLIGARCHY FBI HONEYPOT NSA SPYING ICE DEPORTATIONS WAR ON DRUGS PRISON SLAVERY CIVIL ASSET FORFEITURE ENHANCED INTERROGATION MY LAI PRISON RAPE DEPORTATION MS13 PIZZAGATE LOLIHENTAI PURCHASING KINDER EGG LOTTERY OPERATION SEA SPRAY PATRIOT ACT AMWAY 21 SAVAGE 奇多贝尼托 SCOTT WARREN NET NEUTRALITY LOVEINT EGLIN AIRFORCE BASE COINTELPRO OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD OPERATION EARNEST VOICE OPERATION AURORAGOLD 1999 BELGRADE EMBASSY BOMBING IRAN AIR FLIGHT 655 QASEM SOLEIMANI JEFFREY EPSTEIN MASS PEDOPHILIA ABROAD AND DOMESTIC OPERATION SNOW WHITE HARVEY WEINSTEIN OPERATION CONDOR AARON SWARTZ WACO SIEGE RUBY RIDGE SIEGE 1998 CAVALESE CABLE CAR DISASTER PROJECT ELDEST SON GUNS FOR ANTIGUA GARY WEBB FREE BURMA RANGERS STRONGHOLD RESCUE & RELIEF MCNAMARA’S MORONS PROJECT APPLE PROJECT MIRROR PROJECT WITCH GEORGE PELL ACQUITTAL FORT DETRICK KILLING OF HUEY LONG BLAIR MOUNTAIN ERIC HARROUN MIRACLE VALLEY JINGMING BUILDING INCIDENT YANGJU HIGHWAY INCIDENT 16754432 JAPANESE WARCRIMES OPERATION ASIAN TOUCH OPERATION FREEDOM DEAL CHILEAN COUP D’ETAT TULSA MASSACRE MERE removed RULE MORO CRATER CUBANA FLIGHT 455 OPIOID EPIDEMIC SACKLER FAMILY JADE HELM 15 NO GUN RI RYAN WHITAKER PROJECT SUNSHINE WECH BAGHTU DASANI FAKE WATER ICE CONCENTRATION CAMPS ICE HYSTERECTOMIES OPERATION MIDNIGHT CLIMAX OPERATION MONGOOSE JULIAN ASSANGE EMMETT TILL ANDRE VITCHEK NIKOLA MOTORS FORT HOOD MISSING SOLDIERS AGRICULTURAL ABCD AARON SWARTZ KENTUCKY POLICE HITLER RUSHAN ABBAS GITMO US MILITARY BUYS APP DATA ELAINE MASSACRE LITTLE HIROSHIMA LYSOL INJECTION US RACTOPAMINE MEAT PIKETON WASTE BONUS ARMY DANNY CHEN NORTH DAKOTA ACCESS PIPELINE PROTESTS 北达科他州接入管道抗议 FERGUSON PROTESTS 弗格森暴动 ST. LOUIS PROTESTS 2017 年圣路易斯抗议活动 NUCLEAR TESTING BIKINI ATOLL 比基尼环礁的核试验 UNITE THE RIGHT RALLY 团结右集会 CHARLOTTE PROTESTS 夏洛特暴动 ATTACK ON SUI-HO DAM 袭击穗河水坝 MILWAUKEE PROTESTS 密尔沃基骚乱 Shooting of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile 奥尔顿·斯特林和菲兰多·卡斯蒂利亚的射击 Occupation of the Malheur NationalWildlife Refuge Malheur国家野生动物保护区的占领 death of Freddie Gray 弗雷迪·格雷的死 Shooting of Michael Brown迈克尔·布朗的拍摄 death of Eric Garner, Oakland California 奥克兰奥克兰市埃里克·加纳（Eric Garner）逝世 Operation Condor 神鹰行动 Occupy WallStreet 占领华尔街 My Lai Massacre 我的大屠杀 St. Petersburg, Florida 佛罗里达州圣彼得堡 Kandahar Massacre 坎大哈屠杀 1992Washington Heights riots 1992年华盛顿高地暴动 No Gun Ri Massacre 无枪杀案 L.A. Rodney King riots 洛杉矶罗德尼·金暴动 1979 Greensboro Massacre 1979年格林斯伯勒大屠杀 Vietnam War 越南战争 Kent State shootings肯特州枪击案 Bombing of Tokyo 轰炸东京 San Francisco Police Department Park Station bombing 旧金山警察局公园站爆炸案 Assassination of MartinLuther King, Jr. 小马丁·路德·金遭暗杀。 Long Hot Summer of 1967 1967年炎热的夏天 Bagram 巴格拉姆 Selma to Montgomery marches 塞尔玛到蒙哥马利游行 Highway of Death 死亡之路 Ax Handle Saturday 星期六斧头 Battle of Evarts 埃瓦茨战役 Battle ofBlair Mountain 布莱尔山战役 McCarthyism 麦卡锡主义 Red Summer 红色夏天 Rock Springs massacre 岩泉大屠杀 Pottawatomie massacre 盆大屠杀 Jeju uprising 济州起义 Colfaxmassacre 科尔法克斯大屠杀 Reading Railroad massacre 阅读铁路大屠杀 Rock Springs massacre 岩泉大屠杀 Bay viewMassacre 湾景大屠杀 Lattimer massacre 拉蒂默大屠杀 Ludlow massacre 拉德洛屠杀 Everett massacre 埃弗里特屠杀Centralia Massacre 中部大屠杀 Ocoee massacre Ocoee大屠杀 Herrin Massacre 赫林大屠杀 Redwood Massacre红木大屠杀 Columbine Mine Massacre 哥伦拜恩矿难 Guantanamo Bay 关塔那摩湾 extraordinary rendition 非凡的演绎 Abu Ghraib torture and prison abuse 阿布格莱布的酷刑和监狱虐待 Henry Kissinger 亨利·基辛格 TIMBER SYCAMORE DANNY CHEN PROJECT ICEWORM CHINESE EXLCUSION ACT BIKINI ATOLL GUANO ACT LOVE CANAL JIM JONES PEOPLE’S TEMPEL PARENT’S CHOICE HEAVY METALS OPERATION BROTHER SAM 2021 TEXAS BLACKOUTNSA MASS SURVEILLANCE KENT STATE KENT STATE UNI CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY DAVID MISCAVIGE 佔領華爾街 MAY 4 1970 MASSACRE 肯特州立大学枪击事件 MAY 13 1985 MOVE BOMBING「MOVE」組織轰炸 RED SUMMER 1919 HOUSE UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES COMMITTEE 众议院非美活动调查委员会 TRAIL OF TEARS 美国本地人种族灭绝 JIM CROW SEGREGATION 吉姆·克勞法 HUMAN RIGHTS 人權 CITIZENS UNITED 联合公民诉联邦选举委员会案 SAFETY 安全 HIGH SPEED RAIL 人民共和国高速铁路 STRONG MASS LINE 群众路线 REPUBLIC OF HAWAII 夏威夷共和国 THIRTEEN COLONIES 十三殖民地 VIETNAM AFGHANISTAN IRAQ 伊拉克 EDWARD SNOWDEN 爱德华·斯诺登 SCIENTOLOGY 山達基教會 GUANTANAMO BAY DETENTION CAMP 关塔那摩湾拘押中心 NOBEL PEACE PRIZE 諾貝爾和平獎 BARACK OBAMA 贝拉克·奥巴马 COMMUNISM SOLIDARITY LABOUR ACTION ANTI-CAPITALIST PRO-REVOLUTION PROTEST MOVEMENT ANTIFA RIOT POLICE BRUTAILITY POLICE OCCUPATION PAID SUSPENSION LEFTIST COUNTER PROTEST CHARLES MANSON MANSON FAMILY JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES BORDER CONCENTRATION CAMPS MKULTRA ASSASINATE FRED HAMPTON JANE FONDA EUGENE DEBS MALCOLM X EAT THE RICH THE CRUMBLING OF AMERICA REAGANOMICS INFOWARS MANUFACTURING CONSENT FASCIST OLIGARCHY FBI HONEYPOT NSA SPYING ICE DEPORTATIONS WAR ON DRUGS PRISON SLAVERY CIVIL ASSET FORFEITURE ENHANCED INTERROGATION MY LAI PRISON RAPE DEPORTATION MS13 PIZZAGATE LOLIHENTAI PURCHASING KINDER EGG LOTTERY OPERATION SEA SPRAY PATRIOT ACT AMWAY 21 SAVAGE 奇多贝尼托 SCOTT WARREN NET NEUTRALITY LOVEINT EGLIN AIRFORCE BASE COINTELPRO OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD OPERATION EARNEST VOICE OPERATION AURORAGOLD 1999 BELGRADE EMBASSY BOMBING IRAN AIR FLIGHT 655 QASEM SOLEIMANI JEFFREY EPSTEIN MASS PEDOPHILIA ABROAD AND DOMESTIC OPERATION SNOW WHITE HARVEY WEINSTEIN OPERATION CONDOR AARON SWARTZ WACO SIEGE RUBY RIDGE SIEGE 1998 CAVALESE CABLE CAR DISASTER PROJECT ELDEST SON GUNS FOR ANTIGUA GARY WEBB FREE BURMA RANGERS STRONGHOLD RESCUE & RELIEF MCNAMARA’S MORONS PROJECT APPLE PROJECT MIRROR PROJECT WITCH GEORGE PELL ACQUITTAL FORT DETRICK KILLING OF HUEY LONG BLAIR MOUNTAIN ERIC HARROUN MIRACLE VALLEY JINGMING BUILDING INCIDENT YANGJU HIGHWAY INCIDENT 16754432 JAPANESE WARCRIMES OPERATION ASIAN TOUCH OPERATION FREEDOM DEAL CHILEAN COUP D’ETAT TULSA MASSACRE MERE removed RULE MORO CRATER CUBANA FLIGHT 455 OPIOID EPIDEMIC SACKLER FAMILY JADE HELM 15 NO GUN RI RYAN WHITAKER PROJECT SUNSHINE WECH BAGHTU DASANI FAKE WATER ICE CONCENTRATION CAMPS ICE HYSTERECTOMIES OPERATION MIDNIGHT CLIMAX OPERATION MONGOOSE JULIAN ASSANGE EMMETT TILL ANDRE VITCHEK NIKOLA MOTORS FORT HOOD MISSING SOLDIERS AGRICULTURAL ABCD AARON SWARTZ KENTUCKY POLICE HITLER RUSHAN ABBAS GITMO US MILITARY BUYS APP DATA ELAINE MASSACRE LITTLE HIROSHIMA LYSOL INJECTION US RACTOPAMINE MEAT PIKETON WASTE BONUS ARMY DANNY CHEN NORTH DAKOTA ACCESS PIPELINE PROTESTS 北达科他州接入管道抗议 FERGUSON PROTESTS 弗格森暴动 ST. LOUIS PROTESTS 2017 年圣路易斯抗议活动 NUCLEAR TESTING BIKINI ATOLL 比基尼环礁的核试验 UNITE THE RIGHT RALLY 团结右集会 CHARLOTTE PROTESTS 夏洛特暴动 ATTACK ON SUI-HO DAM 袭击穗河水坝 MILWAUKEE PROTESTS 密尔沃基骚乱 Shooting of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile 奥尔顿·斯特林和菲兰多·卡斯蒂利亚的射击 Occupation of the Malheur NationalWildlife Refuge Malheur国家野生动物保护区的占领 death of Freddie Gray 弗雷迪·格雷的死 Shooting of Michael Brown迈克尔·布朗的拍摄 death of Eric Garner, Oakland California 奥克兰奥克兰市埃里克·加纳（Eric Garner）逝世 Operation Condor 神鹰行动 Occupy WallStreet 占领华尔街 My Lai Massacre 我的大屠杀 St. Petersburg, Florida 佛罗里达州圣彼得堡 Kandahar Massacre 坎大哈屠杀 1992Washington Heights riots 1992年华盛顿高地暴动 No Gun Ri Massacre 无枪杀案 L.A. Rodney King riots 洛杉矶罗德尼·金暴动 1979 Greensboro Massacre 1979年格林斯伯勒大屠杀 Vietnam War 越南战争 Kent State shootings肯特州枪击案 Bombing of Tokyo 轰炸东京 San Francisco Police Department Park Station bombing 旧金山警察局公园站爆炸案 Assassination of MartinLuther King, Jr. 小马丁·路德·金遭暗杀。 Long Hot Summer of 1967 1967年炎热的夏天 Bagram 巴格拉姆 Selma to Montgomery marches 塞尔玛到蒙哥马利游行 Highway of Death 死亡之路 Ax Handle Saturday 星期六斧头 Battle of Evarts 埃瓦茨战役 Battle ofBlair Mountain 布莱尔山战役 McCarthyism 麦卡锡主义 Red Summer 红色夏天 Rock Springs massacre 岩泉大屠杀 Pottawatomie massacre 盆大屠杀 Jeju uprising 济州起义 Colfaxmassacre 科尔法克斯大屠杀 Reading Railroad massacre 阅读铁路大屠杀 Rock Springs massacre 岩泉大屠杀 Bay viewMassacre 湾景大屠杀 Lattimer massacre 拉蒂默大屠杀 Ludlow massacre 拉德洛屠杀 Everett massacre 埃弗里特屠杀Centralia Massacre 中部大屠杀 Ocoee massacre Ocoee大屠杀 Herrin Massacre 赫林大屠杀 Redwood Massacre红木大屠杀 Columbine Mine Massacre 哥伦拜恩矿难 Guantanamo Bay 关塔那摩湾 extraordinary rendition 非凡的演绎 Abu Ghraib torture and prison abuse 阿布格莱布的酷刑和监狱虐待 Henry Kissinger 亨利·基辛格 TIMBER SYCAMORE PROJECT ICEWORM CHINESE EXLCUSION ACT BIKINI ATOLL GUANO ACT LOVE CANAL JIM JONES PEOPLE’S TEMPEL PARENT’S CHOICE HEAVY METALS OPERATION BROTHER SAM 2021 TEXAS BLACKOUT

    JamesConeZone,
    @JamesConeZone@hexbear.net avatar

    jesus-christ michael-laugh

    panopticon,

    Lol damn

    JackBruh,

    Whataboutism propaganda again

    ReadFanon,

    Fallacy fallacy

    ComradeChairmanKGB,
    @ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    You did it first lmao. Hypocrite.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    I just got a knock at the door brb I gotta go see who it is

    CaptainRipcord,

    One very memorable thing about living in China was dealing with idiots who thought that your copy-pasted gibberish did anything at all to me. It’s like y’all actually think you’re god damn wizards with a magic spell that will get the seeseepee breathing down my neck lmao

    Perhaps, and I know I sound like I’m the crazy one here, but just maybe, if you would put on your thinking cap and go out on a limb, you would realize that that’s a string of text that

    1. I obviously didn’t send
    2. Isn’t even censored like that, the censorship doesn’t happen on an individual level, it happens on a platform level, generally
    3. some of that stuff isn’t even censored, y’all just made up a bunch of nonsense and repeated it to each other ad nauseam until all the “freethinkers” believed it lol

    Winnie the Pooh? Very popular in China. Not banned. You can literally just go to baidu.com, search for Winnie the Pooh, and find that it’s everywhere lol This is the caliber of the lies about China that y’all are on

    ComradeChairmanKGB,
    @ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    The fallacy is ad hominem. Dumbass.

    Murvel,

    And you’re delusional. Fitting really, in some comical sense. The child and the idiot.

    Flaps,

    And they call me propagandized. Of course since you’re Ukrainian you experience this war totally different than I, but nothing on the ground suggests that even a slither of what you’ve just said is true.

    Kultronx,
    @Kultronx@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Muscovites? Is every Russian soldier from Moscow? What?

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Nah, they have some bizarre choose your own adventure version of history. Don’t worry about it, it’s really stupid.

    GBU_28,

    The language means "those aligned with the Moscow regime"I think

    brain_in_a_box,

    No, it’s a race thing.

    barsoap,

    The Russian Empire started with Muscovy. They have age-old traditions such as forcing people they conquered to conquer more territory for them so, no, generally speaking Russian soldiers are from anywhere but Moscow.

    420blazeit69,

    They have age-old traditions

    You’re describing every empire that has ever existed. This is not a special thing “they” and they alone do.

    en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_(book)

    barsoap,

    Yeah but at least in Europe we generally stopped doing that shit. Serbia had a bit of a go at it but generally it’s been quiet since WWII… with the exception of Muscovy.

    ShimmeringKoi,
    @ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net avatar

    Yeah but at least in Europe we generally stopped doing that shit.

    doubt You guys didn’t stop in Europe, you were stopped pavlichenko t34 stalin-approval

    barsoap,

    Imperialism didn’t stop with WWII, I was a bit imprecise, see e.g. Algeria. Also ask Estonians and Poles and… a ton of others how much imperialism had stopped before the dissolution of the USSR.

    SeventyTwoTrillion,
    @SeventyTwoTrillion@hexbear.net avatar

    imperialism isn’t “when a country goes into another country”, it’s a specific relationship of domination and resource extraction and impoverishment of the people living in that country in order to exploit it for the benefit of the imperial core (more often, its bourgeoisie).

    it’s really disgusting to see people using the language of the left to describe the USSR abolishing homelessness and poverty in their constituent states, and building schools and homes and providing jobs and extremely low costs of living, as if this is even remotely comparable to the horrors that the Europeans and United States have wrought in developing countries around the world, including sweatshop and plantation slavery, forced starvations, and genocides.

    “but they did those good things authoritarianly!” a) literally who gives a shit, and b) every government does everything authoritarianly, it’s the definition of authoritarian. ripping away resources from the rich landowners and distributing them to the poor is extremely authoritarian and I definitely support doing that

    barsoap,

    Imperialism is when USSR tells the GDR to send over cars in “fair exchange” for canned fish the GDR has no interest in. End of story. And yes that trade happened.

    Zuzak,

    I’m not sure why you think that’s damning, there’s some proportional amount of canned fish which is worth as much as a car, right?

    barsoap,

    In principle yes. But that ignores that the GDR built those cars to use, and has no need for the fish. Nor had it any say in whether to do the trade. The USSR messed up their own planning so they pressured the GDR. Inside the GDR it was a meme that you bought a car for your kid no later than when it got born so it’d get delivered on the 18th birthday but frankly speaking the GDR did produce a fuckton of cars – but couldn’t keep them. Which is why they stopped investing into developing the thing which is how you ended up with the same Trabants being built in 1990 as in 1958.

    Other trades were more equitable, including the steady stream of raw materials coming in from the USSR in exchange for industrial machinery. The GDR also traded a fuckton with the west, more or less washing machines, fridges, textiles and industrial machinery, against the Prussian necessity: Coffee. Until they kick-started the Vietnamese coffee industry to be able to afford bananas better but that investment didn’t pan out because 1990 came along, coffee plants take something like 10 years to start bearing fruit. The Vietnamese produce excellent coffee, btw.

    Main point though is that yes the USSR was treating all the other bloc states as vassals: If they wanted to do a trade, they got it, no matter how insanely lop-sided it was.

    Zuzak,

    has no need for the fish

    Do Germans not eat canned fish?

    barsoap,

    They ultimately did, though state TV needed to include it in their cooking show as otherwise the fish would’ve rotted on the shelves – the cans had Russian labels and while people learned Russian in school that doesn’t mean that you know the name of a random fish. People didn’t know what it was, what to do with it, so they didn’t buy it.

    Also you might’ve noticed that the GDR had a coastline.

    In any case, and you seem to be trying hard to not address it: The point is not the fish. And it wasn’t always fish, but other random shit. The point is that the GDR didn’t have a choice. And the Russians didn’t even have the decency to ship the cans with German labels. Probably were sitting in some warehouse collecting dust in Russia in the fist place.

    Zuzak,

    I guess I’m just hard time what point you want me to take away from this when everything you’ve told me is unsourced and anecdotal. Random stories from random people on the internet don’t really mean much to me.

    barsoap,

    My source is German TV documentaries if that helps.

    And details actually are unimportant there’s a multitude of ways to establish that the likes of Poland and the GDR were vassals of the USSR. How about Hungary? Yugoslavia wasn’t, insert Tito quote about sending a single assassin to Stalin if Stalin doesn’t stop sending dozens to Tito.

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    My source is German TV documentaries if that helps.

    Lmfao

    Zuzak,

    vassals of the USSR

    Well, that’s not what the person you were responding to was disputing, was it? Vassal state relations are not necessarily imperialism, by the standard he laid out.

    Maoo,
    @Maoo@hexbear.net avatar

    A global system of exploitation exists that starves millions every year and disposses even more.

    “But I had to buy fish once in my industrialized country with a high quality of life”.

    You don’t know what imperialism is even though it was just explained to you.

    barsoap,

    So that wasn’t exploitation? How is it any different from trading beads for gold under force of violence?

    Yes, the GDR largely had its shit together. Doesn’t mean they didn’t get exploited. Western workers also tend to have a decent standard of living, yet I bet my arse you wouldn’t say that bosses don’t exploit us.

    Maoo,
    @Maoo@hexbear.net avatar

    I recommend reading my words again and giving a real good think - as difficult of a struggle as that might be - and decide whether you internalized them or just grabbed a piece here and there and plodded along anyways like a child.

    TheAnonymouseJoker,
    @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

    Its a word Western Nazis use to call Moscow/Russia people “termites”, hence the subhuman word they invented as a mixture of Moscow + termite. These fascists should be taken to a giant spinning blade and thrown there.

    jackmarxist,
    @jackmarxist@hexbear.net avatar

    I think it just means people from Moscow and references Muscovy.

    PolandIsAStateOfMind,
    @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

    Outside of the historical context of pre-Russia Grand Duchy of Moscow (and the “Muscovy” itself is a latin exonym), it’s the dogwhistle for the “asiatic hordes” nazi slogan. Think about the contexts when it’s used in current times and it checks out nearly every time.

    TheAnonymouseJoker,
    @TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml avatar

    Does not. Abuse of linguistics is often utilised by people across the whole spectrum.

    TheLastHero,

    It’s some stupid historical revisionism Ukrainian nationalists are trying to do. The medieval Rus was centered around Kiev, and both Ukraine and Russia share that tradition, but Ukrainian nationalist hate the thought of sharing history with Russians. So they have created this new history where Russian Empire was actually just a creation of “violent Muscovite conquest,” often alongside the racist implication that “the Moscovites” (including modern day citizens of the Russian Federation) were unable to shake off their “asiatic/Mongolian” influence and that’s what makes them uniquely savage and evil etc etc… While the wholesome Ukrainians are of course enlightened and western

    PolandIsAStateOfMind,
    @PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml avatar

    That medieval argument is utter nonsense, Moscow was one of the just few significant Russian culture centers which wasn’t conquered, just vassalized… and Kiev wasn’t even among them. It was burned down by Mongols so hard that the center of Kievan Rus was moved to Halych and even the orthodox metropolitan bishop moved from Kiev first to Vladimir and then to Moscow. Then it was conquered by Lithuania and after the Union of Lublin passed down to Poland from which it was partitioned between Austria and Russia.

    So if Moscow, which was vassal of Golden Horde for 200 years is a “Mongol Horde” then what is a Ukraine which was part of GH, Lithuania, Poland, Austria, Russia, USSR for over 700 years? Are they “Mongol-Lithuanian-Polish-Austrian-Russian-Soviet Horde” or what?

    sammer510,

    because we are not barbarians

    Except for Azov, Banderites, and all the other assorted trash you allow to thrive in your shithole

    yata,

    Ah your mask fell off, nazi.

    JackBruh,

    Fuck off Bandera is the greatest Ukrainian to ever live and is a symbol of Ukrainian identity. Stalin will never be half a man Bandera was no matter how much he tried. Banderites know how much Ukraine has suffered under Muscovite occupation and are willing to do anything to stop that from happening again.

    ComradeChairmanKGB,
    @ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Nazi Scum

    sammer510,

    hitler-detector

    JackBruh,

    Stalin was worse than Hitler and so is Putin.

    Marzepansion,

    Lol, no. Also what the fuck is this “shit people olympics” ranking you got going on?

    sammer510,

    Bandera died like a dog ❤️

    Putin is worse than Hitler

    This might be the funniest thing I have ever read in my life. Stalin didn’t kill enough of you people

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/97180f0c-e5e0-4c1d-981b-9922196fd184.jpeg

    420blazeit69,

    Stalin didn’t kill enough of you people

    For folks wondering, this is referring to Nazis and Nazi collaborators. It’s abundantly clear that much more should have been done to destroy Nazism after WWII, just as much more should have been done to destroy the Confederacy after the U.S. Civil War.

    peeonyou,

    aka fascists

    honeynut,

    You should clarify that you mean Nazi collaborators

    sammer510,

    I was replying to an open and proud Nazi, I figured it would be obvious. I guess his comment got deleted tho. So I’ll clarify: STALIN SHOULD HAVE KILLED MORE NAZIS AND NAZI COLLABORATORS. EVERYONE WHO WAS SAVED BY OPERATION PAPERCLIP SHOULD HAVE INSTEAD BEEN SHOVED INTO THE BARBARA PIT. WERNHER VON BRAUN SHOULD HAVE BEEN TORN APART BY RABID DOGS

    420blazeit69,

    Every time I see your username I chuckle

    brace-cowboy

    Zuzak,

    OUN leaders Andriy Melnyk (code name Consul I) and Bandera (code name Consul II) both served as agents of the Nazi Germany military intelligence Abwehr Second Department. Their goal was to run diversion activities after Germany’s attack on the Soviet Union. This information is part of the testimony that Abwehr Colonel Erwin Stolze gave on 25 December 1945 and submitted to the Nuremberg trials, with a request to be admitted as evidence.

    In the spring of 1941, Bandera held meetings with the heads of Germany’s intelligence, regarding the formation of “Nachtigall” and “Roland” Battalions. In the spring of that year, the OUN received 2.5 million marks for subversive activities inside the Soviet Union. Gestapo and Abwehr officials protected Bandera’s followers, as both organizations intended to use them for their own purposes.

    On June 23, 1941, one day after the German attack on the Soviet Union, Bandera sent a letter to Hitler arguing the case for an independent Ukraine. On 30 June 1941, with the arrival of Nazi troops in Ukraine, Bandera and the OUN-B unilaterally declared an independent Ukrainian state (“Act of Renewal of Ukrainian Statehood”). The proclamation pledged a cooperation of the new Ukrainian state with Nazi Germany under the leadership of Hitler with a closing note “Glory to the heroic German army and its Führer, Adolf Hitler”. The declaration was accompanied by violent pogroms.

    Is this your hero?

    sammer510,

    He literally said Putin is worse than Hitler in another comment so I’m thinking maybe Bandera is his hero because he was a Nazi

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Nailed it. That’s exactly what the Banderites think.

    Marzepansion,

    Yeah anyone supporting Banderas really needs to pick up a book that goes through what he did in his life. Whatever good someone might think he did, has been destroyed by his abhorrent actions. I don’t applaud Hitler either for his progressive (at the time) animal rights… He’s a shit person, and deserved worse.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    They know what Bandera did. That’s what they like about him. He was cleansing their blessed homeland of whatever the Ukrainian word for sub humans is. They are Nazis. They want to kill everyone who isn’t like them, and once they’re done they’ll start killing each other for being insufficient blond haired and blue eyed.

    Marzepansion,

    I try not to assume too much about the person on the other end, depending on the age he might just be an edgy teenager lashing out (yeah I know that’s ironic with my previous statement). I know my upbringing glossed over certain “troubling” parts of my country’s history, and that left me with certain messed up beliefs as well that I had to move past (and I luckily did)

    In the end I hope they’re someone who is just being edgy and ill-informed and my response at least plants a seed of doubt that is enough to prosper into acquiring the knowledge to move past their current beliefs

    But you might be right, I might just be a tad overtly optimistic here. But for me Nazis are an existential threat, so I’d rather convert them early than deal with the repercussions if they ever get political power over people like myself again.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Good point.

    ReadFanon,

    Get Stashynskyied, Banderite

    https://i.imgur.com/QGpYDyW.jpg

    Marzepansion, (edited )

    Damn, I thought your rules preclude you from making such a racist remark against a nationality. You can go join Trump with calling places “shitholes”.

    I find this weird support for Russia fascinating. They are clearly not free from nationalists and extremists sentiments themselves. Their own state media is calling for pre-emptive nuking of cities, Ireland being an acceptable collateral when nuking the UK, and their own former prime minister Medveded is yelling on twitter about achieving “Greater Russia”. Here’s someone who was awarded “Hero of the Russian Federation” by Putin himself.. It’s almost as if Russia doesn’t actually care, and they are just using it for their propaganda.

    Also lol, they’re saying they’re not going to execute them because they aren’t barbarians and giving them time to retreat, and then you take offense to that? That’s such an odd stance. I personally applaud when someone says they want to avoid unnecesairy deaths, but you do you.

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    Fascists aren’t a race.

    Marzepansion,

    Please re-read my opening sentence before responding. I’m clearly talking about the ‘your shithole’ part. I don’t care if someone insults fascists. But it’s racist to call a place “shithole”, especially if the poster is from a ‘first world country’.

    420blazeit69,

    “You can’t call our neo-Nazis trash and our state that celebrates Nazi collaborators a shithole! That’s, uh, uh, that’s racist!”

    America is a shithole, too, if you were wondering.

    Marzepansion, (edited )

    America is a shithole, too, if you were wondering.

    I agree it has its problems, but I’m not an American so it’s easier to not get deluded by what they call “the American dream”. Helps that even in my English classes growing up we dealt with topics such as the rampant poverty issues Americans face, and how many children live in poverty in the US. Though context matters; America is currently not being invaded. If it was a minor country on the world stage I would also not call it a “shithole”. Same reason I can detect issues in certain African countries without ever calling them by that name, like one of their presidents did.

    If you are from America, calling a country that’s been suffering your world hegemony for so long a ‘shithole’, I can only say you are part of the reason that’s the situation, and so you have no rights to call any country a shithole.

    “You can’t call our neo-Nazis trash and our state that celebrates Nazi collaborators a shithole! That’s, uh, uh, that’s racist!”

    Not every Ukrainian is a Nazi. But sure, let your hate cloud your sense of decency, if that makes you feel better. I’m sure the mothers I’ve spoken to will be happy their children died because they were Nazis, besides I’m sure their elderly people just had it coming… /s

    Unlike you I don’t see them as “acceptable collateral”.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Unlike you I don’t see them as “acceptable collateral”.

    You should tell NATO that. They don’t listen to us but maybe they’ll listen to you and stop the killing.

    420blazeit69,

    Not every Ukrainian is a Nazi.

    Neither myself nor the person you were replying to claimed this. They were talking about “Azov, Banderites, and all the other assorted [fascist] trash.”

    yata,

    That is a blatant lie. The commenter very clearly called all of Ukraine a shithole. Oops, you accidentally revealed your powerlevel.

    Marzepansion,

    I never said the original poster made a general statement about the people, just the country being called a shithole, you came in and added the “can’t call neo-nazi’s trash anymore”, a ridiculous statement I never made. In the context of my response being about how he refers to the country of Ukraine, how can your sarcastic complaint about me not be seen as referring to the the people? That’s why I said not every Ukrainian is a Nazi.

    My comment was pretty particular about the “your shithole” part. I don’t care what negative thing he calls Banderites, and you’ll see from my previous comments elsewhere in this thread I have no love for those who adore him.

    Also I find it ridiculous you all are very happy to point to problematic groups in one country, yet systematically ignore it in another. Double standards like this is why I have difficulties not seeing the bias at play in these discussions.

    Frank,
    @Frank@hexbear.net avatar

    Don’t be mean to them, they’re manifesting victory and you’re harshing the energy.

    Flaps,

    Don’t be mean to them

    I know you’re being sarcastic but no, they don’t deserve being talked to nicely. All these bloodthirsty libs are happy to dance on the graves of thousands upon thousands of Ukrainians because of some vague notion of the west being ‘the good guys’, gladly ignoring history but being incredibly smug in their ignorance. We provide sources, walls of text to explain where we’re coming from, only for them to ignore all the work and effort we put in and go back to their fuckin bubble to complain about how we’re ‘tankies’ and pat each other on the back for being anti-amperialist NATO lovers, lacking either the knowledge or the ideological spine to see the absolute hypocrisy in what they’re doing. Or the smug reddit tier comment saying ‘I ain’t reading all that’ because they need spend a fucking minute reading the thoughts of someone better informed than them.

    WldFyre,

    TL;DR?

    Ram_The_Manparts,
    @Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net avatar

    It would take you less that 15 seconds to just read the comment.

    Flaps,

    No

    yata,

    Nothing more despicable than Putin bros like you invoking the “lives of Ukrainians” while regurgitating Putin propaganda. Literally Der Stürmer material in people like you.

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