What is the EU going to do without the US’s approval? UN is out due to permanent security member’s veto power. Going against the USA means loss of a lot of things. Some of them crucial. They literally cannot do a single thing without losing a major thing that directly impacts their citizens.
Not everything is about the US, you know, EU-internal politics regarding Israel are quite complicated.
I don’t think we managed to officially ban products out of settlements yet but I don’t see them anywhere for the simple reason that they have to be labelled as settlement products, not “Made in Israel”. Israel threw a pretty fit over that, usually EU action (besides stern letters) takes the form of annoying the Israeli right by helping Palestinians.
Going against the USA means loss of a lot of things.
…none of which the EU can’t replace. We’ve been in plenty a trade war, you’re welcome to look up how those ended.
Not everything is about trade wars. All it takes is for the US to say they will not follow NATO security agreements and follow through with that, and if you think that is not possible you haven’t paid attention to the shit show over here. It’s a serious problem and we are not fixing the holes that appeared in recent years.
The EU doesn’t need the US to defend itself – who’s going to invade? Russia? With what army?
Power projection is another thing but we don’t really want to do that anyways. And the French would rejoice they’d finally get their EU army project really going.
Much like that UN report classifying Israel’s action against Palestinians as Apartheid (which is criminal in international law), much will be said and very little will be done about this. The state of Israel has been going against international law and agreements for almost its entire existence: see its support for illegal colonies and the walling and ghettoization of the West Bank and Gaza. Israel’s government has confidence that the US and NATO won’t do anything to stop their criminal actions against Palestinians because that is what they’ve been doing for the last half century. They will continue to coddle Israel until it fulfills its goal of completely exterminating or expelling Palestinians from the land between the river and the sea, forging a state with a single ethnicity, culture and religion out of Palestine.
PS: just before anyone claims it: no, I do not support gratuitous acts of terrorism by Hamas, just as I don’t support Israel’s terrorism against Palestinians. All I’m trying to do is point out the historical context of the current conflict, so that nothing is distorted.
The EU may support Israel, but right now they’re calling them out for this bullshit and I’m applauding them for that. Hurting innocent civilians is never a good idea no matter which side of the conflict does it.
It angers me how many people are now permanently displaced. From what I’ve seen, the numbers are going to be extremely high. How do you rehouse an entire city? Families are going to suffer many hardships because of this. I can’t think of a better way to recruit a new generation for an age old cause.
There’s pictures of the Israelis landing in palestine by boat 75 years ago begging for asylum, they never stuck to the border agreements over the years and continuously steal land and kill palestinians, Israelis are scum of the earth lowlife colonisers. End of story.
They never stuck to the border agreements because for starters the surrounding arab countries (can’t say Palestine because it didn’t even exist as a country back then) refuse to acknowledge the borders and instead wanted to eradicate Israel. And for the first 30 years of after Israel was officially founded those same countries kept poking and prodding hoping to force them out in a similar fashion current day Israel does to Palestine. Is it really a wonder then that they treat Palestinians like dirt and ignore border agreements? It’s literally how they were historically treated.
And this isn’t to defend Israel. Current day Israel is the reason Hamas exists and Israeli treatment of Palestinians (not just in Gaza) laid the foundation of the terror attack. What I’m pointing out is that there’s a clear circle of violence that has been perpetuated by generations on both side and this nuanceless “Palestinians / Hamas is evil” or “Israelis are scum” perspectives are perpetuating the same violence by dehumanizing the other side.
Nice work ignoring the decades of conflict. It’s not like Israel has been stealing all the land they agreed to “allow” Palestinians have for the last 50+ years or anything, right?
I mean, if you want to go down that rabbit hole, you certainly can dig into centuries of imperialism and oppression in Africa by outside colonial powers.
That’s called collective punishment, and is a war crime.
They’re not really neighbors. Gaza is more like a prison controlled by Israel. Israel has controlled Gaza’s electricity, food, water, and the movement of its citizens for many years. I believe even before this attack, Israel only allowed Gaza 4 hours of electricity per day.
Also, in 2019, the PM of Israel reportedly laid out a strategy to “bolster” Hamas and provide them funding to oppose the Palestinian Authority. Hamas, in its current form, would not have been possible without Israel creating the perfect conditions for terrorist organizations to thrive. Israel keeps the conditions so bad, the average age in Gaza is 18. So, half of those Palestinian death toll numbers we are seeing are likely children.
The modern state of Israel exists because a bunch of Christian doomsdayers thought that it existing would make Jesus come back and end the world, and post-WWII seemed like the perfect time to redraw some borders with no consideration for the people already living there. That’s the death cult you’re talking about.
And I know Judaism views Israel as its ancestral homeland. It’s not like the Jews have no claim to it whatsoever. Additionally, I understand that post-WWII genuinely was a great time to give the Jewish people some reparations. But you’re acting like they’ve been there the whole time and no one else also has a claim to it, and you’re further acting like after the European Christian death cult moved them in there (again, to try and make Jesus come back and end the world), they didn’t then spend the next 70 years viciously subjugating the Palestinians who’d actually been living there for ages.
MLK Jr. said that a riot is the last voice of the unheard. That’s not true about every riot, but if you have been aware of the geopolitics of this region of the world for more than like a month? and are not being a disingenuous shitbag, then this is the exact type of riot he was talking about. I know you have a lot of trouble with the not being a disingenuous shitbag part, but fortunately it seems like most people here also recognize that.
Blocking neccesities for civiliana like water is a war crime. Encircling enemy state after it lanched offensive to yours is not, otherwise e.g. allies pushing Nazis all the way back to Berlin was also crime.
Israel claims that Hamas is not a legitimate government and definitely not a state. They claim and control the territory of Gaza and consider Hamas a terrorist organization.
So by their own definition, this is a war crime crime against humanity.
Why are you comparing the two? You’re insulting Israel by comparing them to a terrorist organization.
The Israeli Government should be better than criminals, just as the US should be better than the Taliban. But they actually kill more. Like it or not, Palestinians are citizens of Israel and living on their territory. If Israel kills them indiscriminately, they are committing a crime against humanity.
They are defacto subjects of Israel, since the State of Palestine has been under Israeli military occupation since 1967. If you don’t call them full “citizens” it implies they are second class citizens in a apartheid-like state.
Going by the numbers would suggest Israel is 20 times worse than Hamas. But, that was before they started one of the largest scale war crimes in recent history*… I would argue that Israel is, from what seems to me a rather objective point of view, to be much worse
*I’m referring to the war crime on 2.2 million civilians who are being cut off from water, electricity and food, who can do nothing about it, because of, you guessed it, Israel.
Numbers are not the most important moral decider in war. By your logic, the US or Canada would have been the worst major player in WW2. Intent matters and moral values matter.
Nah. My logic is sound, don’t attribute flaws in it based on your inability to understand my point. Let me break it down for you:
Numbers are not the most important moral decider in war
I have not made this claim. I have suggested that numbers can help gain better understanding of a situation, especially when the numbers suggest incorrect portrayal of a situation, one which is extremely prevalent in US media.
Canada … in WW2, as topping the leaderboard as responsible for civilian casualties? Canada is your second place there? I mean, why the fuck do I bother discussing this with people online. And… the US on first place? Sure, the US nuked 2-300 000 people… Man… the dumb arguments I see. Aside from ethnic cleansing, it is one of the worst war crimes committed, but even so, it’s a % of the civilian casualties in USSR, China and Nazi Germany. But, I’m sure that’s part of the copium right. “The animals beheaded 40 babies” => “Let’s do some ethnic cleansing, because intent matters, not numbers!”. (PS: Numbers of beheaded babies: 0, “but I’m sure they intended to!”)
Obviously illegal. Collective punishment is a war crime and makes Israel a monster. Imagine if there was a murderer in your building and the feds blew the entire building up.
Something tells me you still are not getting the point about collective punishment. But hey, you won’t be the first person who can’t see the hypocrisy in all of us.
Hmmm let’s stay on topic. I didn’t say I support collective punishment of Palestine or anyone. I said missiles aren’t the same thing as border restrictions, because they clearly aren’t. Do you actually disagree?
Starving people to death via a siege and not allowing passport holders to visit are worlds apart.
Aside from that, it would be a violation of sovereignty to say which countries other countries had to allow in. Countries can and do block passports all the time.
Please, by all means, inform the class what “collective punishments” Russian Citizens are currently facing that are directly equivalent to what Israel is doing.
Collective punishment IS a war crime. Travel is a privelege, not being able to go on holiday to specific places isn’t punishment. Do you realise most countries aren’t permitted to travel somewhere?
This is not valid in all cases as I know multiple Russians and those living in EU continue to do so with no issue and those living in RU say it doesn’t affect them. You can even find interview with random RU citizens in RU and they all say it doesn’t affect them or that they want to attack UA BC Nato boarder is too close.
I’m ststating that Russians don’t seem to be directly afected aside from having their favorite EU vacation destinations accessible via France or Turkey instead directly from Moscow. It means that so called collective punishment was either ineffective or so mild, that it had almost no effect on dayly lives of citizens.
You compare this with bombing city, being cut out of water, food, medicine and energy.
If anything, Russians collectively punished Ukrainians by shelling,detroying their energy and tradic infrastructure to make winter as bad as possible for UA.
Imagine there was a murderer in your building. But he is not really interested in murdering you, he keeps shooting at some other people you also hate. The feds have tried to go into the building to extract the murderer, but his friends and you lynched the feds when they tried. The murderer has stockpiled his guns in the building and the feds figure that if they can’t get to the murderer at least they can destroy his guns and vantage point from which he is firing at people. They don’t really want to destroy the building but the murderer is actively trying to kill people and the people he is trying to kill demands action.
You receive a text message that the building you are in will be destroyed shortly. You want to leave, but now the murderer says he will kill you if you do.
It is a very silly thing to think that having a “civilian” stay in a legitimate military target ( rocket launcher and or rocket storage ) makes it a place that is untouchable!
Are you telling me there are people being told their building will be blown up who leave the building to go stand just a few meters away on the street it sits on?
Not excatly like that. They were told to evacuate to a particular place were they will be secure because supposedly Isael wouldn’t strike… and then, they strike that place anyway.
There is no helping the clowns in this forum. They’re lost and don’t understand the costs of living in a terrorist society. There has been billions spend on providing aid, proving avenues, providing resources to the gaza strip.
You obviously dont know your history. This all started when Britain made shady deals with a bunch of countries during the first world war. And even before that Israel was on that land before there was ever a Palestine.
Jason Lee, Country Director for Save the Children in the occupied Palestinian territory, said:
“It is unacceptable that there is continued use of lethal force against children. So far, 34 Palestinian children in the West Bank have lost their lives in 2022, in what has become the deadliest year for children in more than 15 years. One Israeli child was reportedly also killed in an attack just this morning. Once again, children are paying the heaviest price for a conflict they have no control over."
Palestinians have been living there for hundreds of years, it is their home. The Isreali settlers started showing up 70 years ago and forced the inhabitants out of their houses. Do you seriously think that Jewish people deserve that land because of the religion of its inhabitants in ancient roman times?
You do know their were always arab jews in tbe region. Just saying from Morroco to Yemen but with Israel’s creation, jews were expelled from every Arab nation. Only Iran let those who wanted to stay in an islamist country.
That surprises me. I thought sharia law demands that you let peaceful infidels stay as long as they don’t practice their infidelity in public and pay the jizyah. I mean, it obviously sucks and is tailored in a manner that infidels are leaving, but there is no forced relocation as in zionism.
The real mistake being made is recognizing their religions at all. Clearly they are psychotic bloodthirsty death cults and should be given ZERO credibility or respect, and their laws utterly ignored.
If you go by the Quran Jews aren’t even called infidels. They are considered People of the Book. But you are thinking that Arabs follow the Quran devoutly. They cherry pick like all the conservative Christian’s in the west. It doesn’t matter which religion they have they will be hateful against “others” regardless.
When were Jews expelled for every Arab nation? I don’t think that’s true. Like you said “there were always Arab Jews in the region” but they were a minority. The modern Israeli citizens are mostly immigrants though.
That was a long time ago, Palestine will NEVER reclaim the land as theirs. Get over it. Just like America took land from native Americans, it is America now. Land is controlled for a period of time by a specific soceity and eventually it transfers to a more powerful society. That is how it works regardless of how you feel.
Being bigger and more powerful doesn’t mean you aren’t a bully. Israel being more powerful and more palatable doesn’t mean they aren’t terrorists. The US is a bad example if you’re trying to say Israel was in the right, because the US certainly wasn’t.
You really wouldn’t gather this by looking at the media churn. It’s pro Israel to with it’s foot to the floor. If you dare voice distention, you are labeled to be an anti Semite. This successful tactic has been a go to for years. For Israel to know true peace, they need to dump its current leadership. I won’t see this happen in my lifetime.
It both is the case. But it should be really obvious to anyone that even a horrific terrorist attack doesn’t just absolve Israel from international law.
Yeah, you may call them terrorist, but you know deep down that you were wrong… Before Saturday, Gaza Strip had power they had a University they had libraries, and they had shit loads of mosques spread around the city. Now they have nothing because they allowed a religious terrorist organization to run their society. War is awful, innocents die, but ultimately there is a result of change. In this case, the change will be the extermination of Hamas Terrorists at any cost, once and for all.
I’m all for open discussions. But… shouldn’t one know the basic facts on a topic before seemingly expressing an opinion on the matter? You clearly need to take an unbiased look at the situation.
You do not kill hundreds of innocent people and blame it on oppression.
Why do you expect an argument? I’m pointing out what seems to me as a flaw in reasoning based on what seems to be a lack of understanding of the situation.
That’s the thing Mann I don’t misunderstand the situation… You do. The atrocities that Hamas is responsible for is only punishable via death with war comes civilian casualties until we can figure out a way to only kill military personnel. This is literally collateral damage that is inevitable… Israel is doing the right thing Hamas is a terrorist organization Land is not owned by any society. It is owned by the power of the society at the time of its being I know you don’t understand what I’m saying and that’s OK let’s just agree to disagree.
I doubt I’m anything like you, and I also doubt I think like you. I’ve spent my life always critical of what I think, always allowing myself to be wrong. So I don’t look at this situation with the gut feeling and emotion you seem to have. I look at humans, and human behavior. I’m skeptical of any news and media, especially if there is reason to suspect an agenda.
This is literally collateral damage that is inevitable… Israel is doing the right thing Hamas is a terrorist organization Land is not owned by any society. It is owned by the power of the society at the time
Each of those sentences combined, paints such a strong picture, that I’m surprised you cannot see it for what it is.
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