I always vote for the lesser evil which is why voting D or R isn’t even a consideration for me. It’s hard for some people to grasp, but if you vote for someone who is pro-genocide, it doesn’t really get any “more evil” so you shouldn’t vote for either.
All libs can do is bleat about is Trump while Biden is doing a genocide. The concept of actually taking responsibility for what people you elected are doing must be completely foreign to you.
OK so, I’ll start this by saying I’m a supporter of Biden and Palestine. Not the biggest fan of him saying he’s a Zionist. But the thing I’ve told a couple friends who haven’t been keeping up as much that even though Isreal is kinda scummy and definitely not going about this the right way right now, but at the end of the day they’re our alli. And without the alliance we don’t have solid roots in the middle east. So it sucks but political fares hardly ever are.
I never said I want to be an alli with them. I immediately said I backed Palestine. I just was saying they’re unfortunately the alliance we have there and not backing them now would cause more harm then good.
I would argue that point, but Isreal has said repeatedly they want to be the ones to do this. We’re just floating there to make sure nobody else joins in.
But if Isreal asked for boots on the ground we should (unfortunately) help because that’s what allis do.
The US doesn’t need solid roots in the middle east, it is literally an entire ocean away, has the top 4 air forces in world(well, officially Russia is #3, but that probably is no longer the case and definitely won’t be by time the Ukraine invasion ends), the 2nd best/possibly the best Navy in the world, the 2nd largest stockpile of Nukes(and likely the largest stockpile of actually functional ones), not to mention a missile defense system that probably puts even the Iron Dome to shame(after all, the I.D was primarily funded by the US).
Literally the only physical foreign threat the US needs to truly worry about is small scale terrorist-attack style operations, and all out MAD nuclear war. Literally no foreign country is touching us in a traditional war.
No, the only reason the US needs solid roots in the middle east is so it can advance it’s imperialist interventionist goals. You’re absolutely right, Israel is the US’s ally. Where you are wrong though is believing we should support them, rather than ending our alliance with them.
Put it this way: An alliance between two countries is basically like a friendship between two people. If you found out your friend, your best friend even, was a remorseless serial killer, how would you react? Would you rightly dump them as a friend and hope they rot in prison, or would you be like “sure, I realize they killed all those innocent people, but they’re my friend! I HAVE to support them no matter what! Besides, they totally killed some bad people too, so it’s justified.”?
That response makes literally no fucking sense. What am I, specifically, supposed to do about this? Call Biden up on his private line that I somehow have and be like “Hey bro this is some fucked up shit. Pretty please stop?”?
I am a private citizen with no money, no political power, no military power, and no real power to influence others. I do what I can, educating myself on these matters and in turn trying to educate those close to me as well. Sorry that I only have the ear of some friends and family and not fucking Congress or the goddamn President, sue me I guess.
Unlike me, the US government is the most powerful entity on the entire planet in ALL of those regards. It has absolutely no good excuse for continuing to support Israel’s genocide.
I'd just add that 'Zionism' means many different things to many different people. To some, it's advocating that all Palestinians be forcefully removed from the region in support of the creation of a kind of Greater Israel. To others, it's the mere acknowledgement that Israel is a thing that exists and that all Jews should not be forcefully removed from the region in support of the creation of a Greater Palestine.
Depending on who's using the term, it's essentially either "thing I like" or "thing I don't like", and I wouldn't read very much into it over examining actual specific policy.
The former definition is being openly stated by the Israeli president, prime minister, and senior government officials as explicit justification for years of illegal settlements and apartheid.
The latter definition is a purely speculative excuse from Euro-American liberals that ignores that Palestinian Jews existed before Zionism in order to pretend that Jews can’t exist as part of a multiethnic society.
It's often used as newspeak. Just like in 1984, complex and often nuanced issues are reduced to simple words, soundbites or phrases which limit critical thinking and the ability to articulate more abstract or balanced opinions.
As you say, you're then forced to make a choice, because the whole thing's framed as a false dilemna.
Because the whole debate's so emotional and angry, any room for nuance is often dead on arrival, and gets buried in the cacaphony of the loudest and often most stupid voices.
You could also just use your head and realize that while it’s useless to vote for third-party candidates in presidential elections in the US and still affect change by actually getting involved with politics. Like… voting is the absolute bare fucking minimum and if that’s what you think is going to cause change I don’t know what to think of you other than you clearly haven’t thought about how to accomplish your goals very much.
I made time to listen. To tend to this Democracy, you should too. Don’t listen to people like me, listen to experts that have studied for years.
Edit: Here’s the show notes of what they cover:
“This is the most important election of our lifetimes.” “Voting for a third-party candidate? Might as well throw away your vote!” “You may not like him, but you’ve just got to hold your nose and vote for him — otherwise, Trump might win.”
We’re sure you’ve heard each of these lines many times — we know that we have. But, at some point you have to ask: how can every election be the most important one? Am I really throwing away my vote by voting for a candidate whose policies I agree with? Can we ever actually affect change if we’re always voting for the “lesser evil” candidate or party? Isn’t that just a race to the bottom — or, as we’re seeing currently, a race towards genocide?
Well, in this conversation, we’re going to tackle all of those questions — and much more — with our guest, August Nimtz, Professor of political science and African American and African studies in the College of Liberal Arts at the University of Minnesota. Professor Nimtz is the author of The Ballot, The Streets, Or Both? published by Haymarket Books.
In this conversation, Professor Nimtz explores the question of electoralism as it relates to revolutionary left politics through a deep dive into the history of the Russian Revolution — examining how Marx, Engels, and Lenin approached electoralism and then applying their analyses and viewpoints to today’s situation.
What is the role of elections for the revolutionary left? How can we engage with electoralism without falling into what Professor Nimtz refers to as “electoral fetishism”? What about the “lesser evil” or “spoiler” phenomenon? How can we build a party for the working and oppressed classes without falling prey to opportunism or bourgeois distraction? What can we learn from the European Revolutions of 1848, the Paris Commune, the Russian Revolution, and other historic attempts at revolution — both successful and unsuccessful? These are just some of the questions and themes we explore in this episode with Professor Nimtz.
Yeah I read the summary that was provided but it provided exactly zero meaningful insight about the importance of preventing far right takeover of US government and did little to acknowledge the terrible foreign policy that Republicans have shown again and again. You really think DeSantis/Trump won’t both support the genocide by Israel?
Even not mentioning that fact, who is this taking voted away from? Because it’s not the most dangerous candidates that will have an outsized impact on our democracy, one of which has literally already attempted a coup, calls his political opposition vermin and other fascie shit.
If you take your head out of your ass you’ll certainly realize that not every election is the most important election of our lives, but if you’ve ever studied history or the rise to power of fascist leaders throughout history, you’d also know that this one is quite fucking important to US democracy.
You can always begin change with local elections and grassroots movements. Actually go make the change you want to see in our political sphere. Start by convincing people in your community and it will start to spread. There’s a reason some blue states actually vote for independents and it’s that they’ve done the work to have that luxury by convincing the people around them not to be obvious racist dickheads.
It all has to start somewhere, but if you think it starts at the ballot box I think you just have a fundamental misunderstanding of how change is actually made, at least in the US.
I identify strongly as a Democrat. I have no ill feelings towards the Jewish community. I hate not calling a spade a spade here. I suspect there are some big Jewish donors on the democratic side. Also, we don’t want to lose access to the Israeli tech stack on the surveillance side. So if those are the reasons we are letting Israel essentially eradicate a group of people, then say that to the American people. Let the people decide if we are morally fine with that.
This conflict is complex. But Palestinians were painted into a corner and they truly waited a long time pleading their case to the West with how Israel has been handling them. We did nothing and now we are surprised they went to extremes to fight for their rights and lives.
No one has the moral high ground here. Hamas did something horrible. The response though is highly disproportional. I can’t come up with another scenario where we would be so accepting of this massacre. Native Americans in the US are still treated poorly. If they kidnapped and killed a bunch of none Native Americans that would not justify eradicating them. Then why are we fine with it when it comes to Israel and Gaza?
Hamas only exists because of Israel. They are only radicalized because of the IDF.
The US did the same thing to the Native Americans and supported the South African apartheid regime, so it’s no surprise they support colonialism and apartheid here.
This is a false narrative, and Norm Finkelstein just did a great interview explaining just how absurd it is to try and use both sides argument here www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeO9jGxnbbs
An opinion piece in what is widely regarded as an outlet for the Muslim Brotherhood and pro-Hamas:
Saudi Arabia has accused MEE of being a news outlet funded by Qatar (both directly and indirectly). On 22 June 2017, during the Qatar diplomatic crisis, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Egypt, and Bahrain, as part of a list of 13 demands, demanded that Qatar close Middle East Eye, which they saw as sympathetic to the Muslim Brotherhood and a Qatari-funded and aligned outlet ... On 20 October 2022, MEE cut ties with Palestinian journalist Shatha Hammad after it was discovered that she made a Facebook post in 2014 which praised Adolf Hitler for "sharing the same ideology" and the Holocaust. ... Commentator Ibrahim Alkhamis writing in the Saudi newspaper Arab News claimed that the MEE of propagating rumours and fabrications regarding the Qatar's state enemies such as Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Egypt, while being silent on the misdeeds of Qatars on the members of its royal family and said MEE functions as an "extension to Al Jazeera" without being accused as a state-owned news outlet
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