Its a spectrum that exists on the left running from libertarian to authoritarian. Not from capitalist to socialist. Democrats, Democratic socialist, social Democrats are not the same thing or part of a spectrum of Democrats. They are distinct and different ideologies that share a term but disagree on many other things. There are no left wing Republicans despite authoritarians existing on both the left and the right.
Libertarianism is a left wing ideology born of the 19th century. The concept of a right-wing libertarian was not widely accepted before the red scare of the 1950s and '60s. Nearly a century later. Because it is quite literally impossible to be a capitalist and favor that kind of freedom. When your concept of freedom is the freedom of capital. If capital is free we are all slaves to it. And therefore not free.
Deeper than that be very basic concept of capitalism is authoritarian in nature. It’s concept of private property as opposed to personal property requires a strong authority to enforce it and protect it. Being absolutely incompatible with actual libertarianism. Or the concept of public property as as envisioned by Actual libertarianism.
Further it is a gross misrepresentation to saying that Libertarians or even anarchists are anti-government, or anti-economic redistribution. Strictly speaking that’s just capitalists. All Libertarians or anarchists want is small, more granular, and accountable government. Said government to collecting funds via taxing for robust public housing is not anti libertarian or even anti-anarchist. It’s just anti-capitalist.
And just to finish off. Wikipedia isn’t necessarily authorative. And political Compass despite being wildly more accurate than the political Spectrum as often portrayed in Western Nations is still a misrepresentation.
Socially liberal fiscally conservative is the most meaningless label/platitude in American politics for sure. Even some Republicans will classified themselves that way. As well as Larp-atarians and democrats. Truly meaningless. Of the three groups Democrats probably come closest to actually being that. While still falling well far of it. Literally everyone is conservative with their resources, but wants everyone to believe they aren’t anti social.
Homeless as an example. Everyone treats it like some complex unsolvable problem. When everybody knows the solution. Give them actual housing. The kind that allows them to have stability and security in their life. Not just access to a shower, and overnight use of a random cott in a roach/rat infested building that they’re forcefully turned out of every morning. With no regular access to actual meals. If we just “gave actual housing” to them. That would take care of 60 to 80% of homeless. The few that would remain don’t have homeless as a primary problem.
A libertarian might debate whether we should do this at the town/city, county, state or national level. They wouldn’t argue that we shouldn’t, or already are doing too much to address it. As many larp-atarians do. Larp-atarians can’t even agree on a basic concept of freedom beyond capital/capitalism.
Many, but not all support legalization of marijuana. Many but not all even support equal rights. Whether it’s about racial, gender, or sexual lines. The term that best describes Larp-atarians, is selfish. Their views on freedoms etc don’t really extend much beyond themselves. And worse. Many will vote Republican if there isn’t a Larp-atarian on the ballot. Which considering how anti free speech etc they’ve been for decades. Makes them an extremely anti libertarian group to vote for whether you consider yourself right or left.
Fascist. Because they only support that with the expectation of being given deference or increasing their power at the cost of everyone who rejects or refuses them. Not to compare them literally to Hitler or the nazis. But Hitler offered social support to his chosen people as well. That doesn’t make him a good person. Or even right.
Take the proselytization out. Give it unconditionally like the Samaritan did. It’s one of the biggest parables in Christian teaching. So It’s oddly suspicious they all ignore it. Either they’re not really Christian. Or they could use to read their book.
There’s no arrogance or redefinition of beliefs involved anywhere here. It’s all facts and history. You are welcome to believe anything you want. Because belief specifically does not require truth facts or knowledge. Often it’s the opposite.
Also note when I use the term fascist to describe them I made a point of specifically not comparing them directly to Hitler or the nazis. Just because someone’s a fascist does not necessarily mean they are a monster. Fascism however always leads to monsters.
And just to finish since I sense that you’re getting emotional and defensive here. I see you around quite a bit and generally upvote your posts. Because you seem generally pretty on the ball and have a reasonable understanding. I simply disagree with you on this point. And have pointed out factually, philosophically, and historically why. I just hope at some point you take the time to read and consider. You are more than welcome to disagree after that. Just consider that because something is written, no matter where it is written. Does not inherently make it true.
How is the origin and basis of libertarianism subjective. And again how are Western political Scholars authoritative. Capitalism literally existed back when libertarianism was created. They specifically chose to create an ideology outside it.
Calling unfettered capitalism libertarianism in no way reflects libertarianism as it was created. Claiming that the freedom of capital is equivalent to actual freedom is an absurdity. If you have access to a freedom that others do not. Due to anything like capital or resources that’s not a freedom. That’s a privilege and should not be protected.
Likewise, the non aggression principle. Capitalists or any other group claiming to abide it’s definition of private property can’t also unhypocritically claim to abide the non-aggression principle. Private property demands aggression and violence to enforce it.
If a homeless starving man walked into or broke into a wealthy person’s second, third house, or yacht. Knowing that this season or time of year they would not be there. And took a tchotchke in order to be able to afford to feed themselves. What would the response be? Would it be understanding and assistance? Or would they be chased down by armed men and most likely locked up and deprived of freedom for a considerable amount of time? Better yet would a wealthy person face remotely the same response stealing from poorer people?
Remember post ex parte appeals to Authority can always be overridden by just pointing to the origins of the ideology and the fact that for a century there were no accepted right wing Libertarians.
In its day the remotely closest thing to what we would consider a modern libertarian were those like Friedrich Hayek. Who was then considered an outsider and Fringe group to what was recognized libertarianism. Not to mention if I’m not mistaken came along well after the establishment of the ideology. Simply seeking to repurpose it. If he was considered Fringe and outside the mainstream. How then can his viewpoints be considered what was always intended for libertarianism? Not revisionism but main stream. Clearly it wasn’t. But maybe you have some writing and evidence from the ideologies origins. Writings that aren’t Hayek’s or his acolytes Rothbard or Friedman.
Rothbard considered the modern founder of rightwing libertarianism. Again almost a century after the ideologies founding. Openly just rebranded classic liberalism. Which again, wasn’t libertarianism. But a separate incompatible ideology. Though claiming to have similar goals via different policy. The claims have never been proven however.
So if were gonna debate let’s debate. What actual support for your claims do you have?
Any place that has large dedicated fan bases can come off toxic. Open source, Linux and politicd aren’t any different. There will always be those that feel you aren’t the “right kind” of fan etc. Just do your best to be introspective and understanding. It’s the best any of us can often do.
It’s definitely a shock for example to slip from the shallow pool of “left” in western, especially American politics. Into a system originally started by leninists/stalinists. And I’ve seen plenty of toxicity to non conforming lefties from that group. Though to be fair, as an anti authoritarian lefty. I know I have issues when dealing with authoritarians. Including leninists /stalinists. Which I’m trying to moderate. Seeing as many of them are very young naive and impressionable. As well as much less likely to listen when someone is hostile.
Lemmy was literally started by ML. Who misidentify as Communists. Giving communists a bad name. There are literally people here who regularly defend lenin, stalin, Mao, Soviet russia, china, North korea, Etc. He’s not wrong. And if you feel attacked I think that says more perhaps about you than anyone else.
I Trend left libertarian/ anarcho communist. Yet I regularly get called a neoliberal by many of the Marxist leninists around here for not playing Simon Says group think. Far more often than I get called a tanky by right Wingers who visit. Which is saying something because being anti authoritarian I critique both pretty regularly.
Quick EditI don’t stand behind everything PJ posts. Some I think is in bad taste as is much of Ozma’s. But they’re definitely not wrong in this case.
Sad to say, you aren’t really wrong. We all actually need each other and have a lot to offer. It’s just too easy for ignorance and pride to get in the way.
I think the exact term use was neoliberal. But they do treat them as synonymous. You’re not wrong about that.
It’s like calling all ML tankies. They’d be up in arms banding together if you did that to them. Yet they think it’s fine to do it to others. They know what they’re doing. And they’re not endearing themselves to anyone else that is for sure.
I think more democracy is better. Which post 2016 the Democrats did make the primary more democratic. Sanders still lost fair and square both times. Even in 2016 Sanders didn’t face anything substantially different than Obama did in 2008. By rights the Democrat party doesn’t have to let anyone run as a Democrat either. If they feared him they didn’t have to let him run. Hell, till the 1970s they didn’t even hold primaries as we recognize them. So your claims don’t really make sense.
They’re still tracking and harassing Chinese expats that were involved with Tienanmen. Expats as in left the country. Even in the US and UK. It’s not out of the question.
Yep it’s got Biden over a barrel figuratively and literally. I think he would like nothing more than to wash his hands of Bibi the butcher. Which would at best neutralize a century of foreign policy in the region. For Better or For Worse. Most likely worse.
If we abandon israel. Those in Gaza may or may not be safer. It’s not even guaranteed. Then plenty of the region would then go after Israel and more innocent people would still end up getting killed. It’s a literal no win situation.
For what it’s worth though I would cut off ties with BB’s Israel and offer Asylum to all those there who wish to get out of that situation
Hitler was inspiring. So that makes him a good leader right? Truth is I’d heard that he was largely lucky and highly incompetent overall.
Quite frankly plenty of people Inspire others to commit atrocities. I don’t view that as a good leadership skill. Good leadership skills are the ones who get things done for people who need it done. Even if it’s not perfect or 100% adequate.
The ability to inspire others isn’t necessarily A negative. But I wouldn’t hold that it is a vital or necessary quality of leadership either. More a weakness of people needing someone to lie to them and lead them along more often than not.
Not just that. They’ve never primaried any incumbent president ever. You can blame Biden for not stepping down possibly for age and health reasons on his own. But seeing as they’re likely wasn’t an actual better candidate I can’t necessarily blame him for staying in either. If there really were a better candidate for everyone to get behind they’d be doing it. But there’s been no serious candidates. Not even talk of serious candidates.
It’s perfectly reflects how f***** up our society is right now. So many people having to work into their 70s or eighties whether or not they want to.
It isn’t. Biden has done far too much, in the name of diplomacy to enable it. That’s true. But also different from cheering it on and wanting to accelerate it. I don’t want anyone to die anywhere prematurely. But if I attack everyone who can’t promise that. And refuse to work with those making smaller, more achievable progress. I’d be a part of the problem.
In the near future if more progressive people in Congress come up with sanctions against Likud and related groups in Israel that are causing the problem. Who’s desk would you want that to go to? Biden may or may not sign it. Trump would absolutely sic his fans against anyone that voted for it. One is better than the other. And over 2 centuries of data tells us it will be one of the two.
Wow you guys are just as bad as the trumpers are with those illogical whacked out conspiracy theories. No the system isn’t working as designed. It’s been broken a long time and we all know this. The other thing we all should know however. Is that it’s infinitely harder to fix things than it is to break them or break them more.
The problem is it takes a solid unified front on our part to fix it. But they’ve found it so easy to break you all. To peel you off and turn you against anything like that. Solidarity is what will defeat them. They just laughed to themselves when they watch people like yourself attributing to them far more power than they’ve ever or will ever have. They don’t need absolute power they just need enough people like yourself who can be easily turned to fight against their own interests. While thinking they’re fighting for their interests.
The LP in concept and reality has barely been tangential to libertarianism. Especially post 1950 when the ideology was hijacked as a smokescreen for some of the most vile capitalist Austrian economist in modern history.
The one where we win by making allies and fighting together? Yes. It’s so much easier to behave childish and alienate everyone while getting nothing accomplished. Actually working to help people is a nice fantasy.
I didn’t say he was a nonviolent pacifist. I asked how you thought that machine killed fascists. I know what Guthrie thought should happen to fascists. I also know he applied the term much more selectively than people here.
No I wouldn’t. It’s not like I’m basing everything I know off of him off of that one song that he was universally famous for. He’s got quite a catalog and I’ve listened to most of it . But I wouldn’t expect a ML to be honest about it either. So there’s that. When your answer to everything is Revolution or acceleration. Good things don’t happen.
I generally do. But the disingenuous propagandist posting this edited image I always down vote. So neutral is best I got.
Oooh I hit their fragile nerves!
The image macro is especially ironic considering the way it’s been edited and who it’s targeted at. Generally going against Guthrie’s own message and wishes. Do any of you know how his machine killed fascists? He didn’t remove the guitar strings to garotte them. I’ll tell you that much.
Libertarianism goes back to the 19th century. Not the 1970s. The ideology etc lost it’s way post red scare. When actual libertarian groups and all leftist in general largely laid low. Groups effectively hollowed out, their corpse was reanimated with fash friendly right wing ideologues and ignorant young men. The party at large has ALWAYS been net negative.
The best way to find out if someone is a serious libertarian, is to find out if they’re a member of the libertarian party. If they are you should always doubt their claims. Another tell of false libertarians is that they constantly publicly identity as such.
RFK Jr Rejected by Libertarians After They Loudly Booed, Heckled Trump (www.commondreams.org)
Lemmy can feel unwelcoming at times
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