ia42

ia42, 7 months ago

@SamTheGeek @Alon
I do hope there's a strategic logic behind it.
I wish they would declare it more clearly that the target is Hamas and not the entire population, and in fact ask for their cooperation to save lives and give Intel on their oppressors so our strikes can be more surgical.

I am no diplomat or strategist, but I feel Israel would benefit from making clear this campaign is against Hamas, not a genocide, not against the PA. I worry they have no declared endgame plans.

ia42, 7 months ago

@appassionato @palestine

there are so many facts twisted or ommited in each of these slides, debunking them will be like proving evolution to a young earth creationist. this is not a 2 side conflict, there are at least 10 sides and a lot of rashomons. this "explainer" is so mindlessly simplistic it's insulting to everyone involved, even to Hamas and civilian Palestinians.

ia42, 7 months ago

@oatmeal @appassionato @palestine Thanks for the lesson.

Want to help explain why the UN has separate and very different definitions of "refugee" and "Palestinian refugee", and two different UN agencies to address them?

The Arab countries exiling Jews is also quite false.

Pulling in skin colours and stuff isn't helping either.

I'd hand out history books around but I feel my time is more valuably spent elsewhere. we have lives to save here.

ia42, 7 months ago

@seachanger @Alon
Sadly, not everyone. There are demonstrations across the world cheering Hamas' attack, supposedly I guess they are cheering rape and beheaded babies.

Israel has the right (backed by international leaders), the obligation (to citizens' future) and the strategic inevitability (lest hizballa attacks as well) to strike back at Hamas.

Note what I wrote: not the entire Arab world, not Palestinians in the west bank, just Hamas and at the moment just in Gaza.

ia42, 7 months ago

@seachanger @Alon
Can we do it without hitting civilians? I wish we could, but Hamas is hiding in and under schools, residential neighborhoods and even hospitals. If anyone in the western world knows how to solve this in a clean, ethical, effective way, do share.

ia42, 7 months ago

@seachanger @Alon
I'm a humanist, and of course I believe the Palestinians deserve a state. Sadly this opinion is held by less than 40% of the Israelis, at times it feels like 10%. I have a full belly on the netanyahu policies and indeed most governments' policies on the matter for the last 50+ years, but I am in the minority left.

ia42, 7 months ago

@seachanger @Alon However if the choice is between that state being lead by Hamas or the PA, I'll go with the PA every time. Yes, the PLO was a secular/socialist terror group in the beginning, but they developed governing bodies and an assembly and tried to run an election (mixed results), and I can see them running a country.

ia42, 7 months ago

@seachanger @Alon Hamas had a bloody coup in 2006, killed thousands of PA civil servants and ruled Gaza by terror ever since, they are the enemies of Israel and the PA thus enemies of the Palestinian future state. Their violence caused the siege and their violence is hurting the Palestinian cause. Their behavior is so abhorrent that the Arab world don't like helping Gaza as much as the PA and the West Bank, that they had to cooperate with Oran, no less.

ia42, 7 months ago

@seachanger @Alon now if you know anything about the Islamic world, there is no bigger hate than between Sounies and Shiites, but for the goal of killing Jews they did the impossible. That's how hate driven they are.

It's not a freedom fight, it's a genocidal cult and it's hurting the Palestinian cause.

ia42, 7 months ago

@seachanger @Alon

Fine, say I am the PM of Israel. I recognize Palestine as an independent state. Who do I give over control to?

Hint 1: the hams is homicidal, cares for no human rights, has murdered thousands of Palestinians.

Hint 2: the PA is more than a little weak, generally disliked by most Palestinians because they are said to be too happy to cooperate with Israel.

So, the Islamic Jihad? Muslim brotherhood? Do I get to pick? Do the Palestinians? And how?

ia42, 7 months ago

@seachanger @Alon
That's a tall order from a people that is barely cohesive around a joint ethos or even clear choice of a democracy at all. It's a bloody tribal society, and it will likely fall apart and let Hamas into power like the us got in Afghanistan.

And no, I don't pretend I have a solution either. Leaving it to the pa will fail and leaving it to Hamas will be much worse.

ia42, 7 months ago

@seachanger @Alon

Oh dear. You got me there. I am prejudiced towards democracy and love and yet I was born in this shithole surrounded by racists and religious fundamentalists. You have no clue how things are really working do you?

You must think all the people understand or want democracy, they all understand and want to be civilized "like the west", and if you only moved a bump or two from the road, peace and democracy will pop out of thin air?

ia42, 7 months ago

@seachanger @Alon
Ok, the word tribal has a different meaning to you, I could have chosen better words. Still I stand by my assessment. Nothing racial, just sociologic facts and recent history. Muslim culture and native American culture are very very different.

The Palestinian should and will have a state, but they have to stabilize from a society of gangs and militias to be trusted with control of the land, or they will be a threat to us and themselves.

ia42, 7 months ago

@Alon @charlesgastil @seachanger and kept promising to end Hamas once and for all...

No, Israel won't be installing democracies, we've learned from US mistakes and there are really no interest in that from our extremist right wing coalition. The best we can hope for is helping the PA regain control, and even then there will be huge trust issues to bridge because nobody is talking realpolitik, it's all a bunch of macho egos and historical pathos.

ia42, 7 months ago

@FinchHaven @Sherifazuhur Hamas is not "the Palestinians". in the ~20 years they have controlled Gaza, they terrorized and killed more palestinian Gazans than Israel ever did. Hamas is a common enemy of both Israel and the Palestinians.

ia42, 7 months ago

@Sherifazuhur @FinchHaven well, they oppose the PA and executed some 1000-1500 of its employees when they took over Gaza in a very bloody coup, and they are the main reason there is a blockade around Gaza for the last 17 years. They are not a lawful bunch, and not even very Muslim, the way they slaughtered and kidnapped defenceless babies, children and the elderly.

ia42, 7 months ago (edited 7 months ago)

@Alon yup. The word "kabarnit" in Hebrew comes from kubernetes, all things related to guiding, driving, setting direction, controlling. The word cybernetics ( or kibernetica in older Hebrew translation and possibly German and Russian) is about controlling machines. In sci-fi they used it for direct brain-machine interfaces, or cyborgs, and that caught on in mainstream culture too.

ia42, 7 months ago

@Alon Hamas is a persona non grata on the Arab world. If them giving us trouble actually sends their empathy our way, it's not a bad thing. I just hope Bibi uses this for good.

ia42, 7 months ago

@Alon when the size of the event was coming to light, the Egyptian government decided to give Israeli groups policemen to guard them, it was one of those guards who shot the tourists. This was not an arrest gone wrong, this is investigated as an assassination.

Feels like a replay of Ras Burka.

ia42, 7 months ago

@Alon @cstross @timnitGebru bingo.

Bibi loves provoking "incidents" on borders to justify a military campaign to cover up dirty shit he's done. It's never clearly his neglect that causes it, and it's never been as devestating as this, but it sure fits the pattern. Only this time he needs to divert everyone's attention from so much crap that he needed a full out war. It's mad that his top ranks cooperated and just handed this opportunity to Hamas, but here we are.

ia42, 7 months ago

@kcarruthers @timnitGebru nope. Iranian money and supplies.

ia42, 7 months ago

@Alon @cstross @timnitGebru
No contradiction here. Bibi's hubris was either intentional or a bit overstretched, but this was definitely also a very unprepared military response with people staying trapped for 8-14 hours in safe rooms while terrorists are raveging the kibbutz outside, and no soldiers or police arriving. It was simply a massacre, hundreds of bodies are still unidentified in the yards of their homes, and an unknown number of people abducted. This has been an all-level clusterfuck.

ia42, 7 months ago

@EyalL @RoeyAngel אני לא מרגיש צורך או רצון לעודד את הצבא הכי מוסרי בעולם לצאת עכשיו למלחמת דת.

ia42, 7 months ago

@fulelo nobody thinks it's a silver bullet other than extremists bent on violence.

Personally if I was the PM, I would promote the narrative that the Hamas is the enemy of both the Palestinians and the Israelis, and try to get cooperation to do this surgically.