There is a decent argument historically that communism and other left movements are extremist, racist, and anti-lgbtq. When you start banning concepts, you open your communities up to several things.
Group think
Banning of other radical ideologies that you may agree with
You alienate those people from exposure to better concepts
You jump start compaction cycles for large scale propaganda organizations that could lead to actual violence
I provided four reasons why this was relevant and you jumped from communism to whataboutism? Talk about being intellectually lazy (Or a state-sponsored account)
Left-leaning radical ideologies are banned all the time and usually use the same laws set up to ban far-right movements. I am not begging the question but feel free to continue spouting off the names of logical fallacies. I almost have a bingo.
I deal with propaganda and strategic messaging professionally, so by all means attempt to lecture.
There is a decent argument historically that communism and other left movements are extremist, racist, and anti-lgbtq.
We’re talking about today. On a relatively new community. Frankly, I see no reason to tolerate the bigots you’re so keen on coddling until they take over and make this another version of reddit’s the_donald, complete with organizing nazi rallies. Particularly not with the vague and spurious “there is a decent argument” hand wavy FUD that you didn’t explain as a justification. Are a lot of people saying it?
Moving onto your 4 points, let’s look at how they worked so well over at reddit, with all the virtuous acceptance of intolerance and nazi-coddling they’ve done, shall we?
Group think
No, reddit has never had groupthink. Not for an instant. Thank god they let the bigots in otherwise they’d have groupthink!
Banning of other radical ideologies that you may agree with
Post anything on conservative even slightly counter to their bigoted orthodoxy and see how that goes. Hell, suggest that fascism is not amenable to reason and must be opposed with force anywhere on reddit and see how that goes.
You alienate those people from exposure to better concepts
They had abundant exposure to better concepts on reddit. Look how well that’s worked so far. Clearly the answer is to let them spread their shit all over lemmy.
You jump start compaction cycles for large scale propaganda organizations that could lead to actual violence
the_donald literally promoted and helped organize a nazi rally where Heather Heyer was run over and killed by a nazi’s car. On lovely ol’ bigot-coddling reddit. The sub was not banned for years afterwards. I do not want that for lemmy. I left reddit the instant an alternative that didn’t welcome bigotry got enough users.
Not everywhere has to entertain bigots. There’s already too many places that do. A community that welcomes bigots is unwelcoming to everyone but bigots. But holy shit, does it ever drive engagement.
Yes, I started with the reasons why left-leaning movements have been restricted historically right out of the gate. It is not coddling bigots. It is providing context on why any form of radical idea is restricted, including ideas that we tend to celebrate in these communities. Communist propaganda has historically put fourth that anything that is not communist is inherently fascist. Is that your definition of fascism? Are folks allowed to talk about the French protests? To many they are based in fascism.
In my opinion, you are literally promoting groupthink and closing yourself off to ideas by attempting to ban content that you disagree with based on your own definitions. Life is a little more nuanced when you are not talking about specific issues by which you know the full context.
Also, is it a relatively new community or is it an established one that you want to preserve the culture of? I am getting very mixed messages from you.
Asking for proof of this is like asking for proof that the Constitution exists. It’s a very common thing I referenced. Western anarchism has a more positive history but largely linked to furtherment of the cause over actual progression of liberties.
My point in bringing it up is that it’s extremely easy to craft a narrative that starts including relatively positive forms of speech in with the banning. That includes these little forums and your approach is exactly what happened on Reddit eventually leading to the current influx of members here now. The second you start restricting speech is when the forum starts consolidating power.
Donald Trump was elected president primarily because he could control his messaging and direct different narratives to different demographics. He was unable to do that as president so he lost the next election. By encouraging the siloing of information sources, you enable that behavior.
I don’t want Nazis but the best way to turn them is not by sending them into a forum where they are left unchecked.
Asking for proof of this is like asking for proof that the Constitution exists. It’s a very common thing I referenced. Western anarchism has a more positive history but largely linked to furtherment of the cause over actual progression of liberties.
So you’re using historical examples of dictatorial communist regimes to tar the entire modern left as permanently and irredeemably bigoted. Got what you meant from the very beginning in its entirety in perfect crystal clarity. Meanwhile, the bigots are talking about eradicating trans people right now.
My point in bringing it up is that it’s extremely easy to craft a narrative that starts including relatively positive forms of speech in with the banning.
Your point is that because some communist dictatorships were bigoted, we should tolerate bigotry from fascists right now in new communities. No. For starters, bigots are still perfectly welcome on reddit and twitter and facebook and 4chan and stormfront and so on. Not everywhere has to be welcoming to bigots. Not everywhere has to be a high minded polyannish naive community where no one locks their doors and if we just engage with bigots on their terms everything will be hunky dory and they’ll stop wanting to genocide my friends. Not everywhere needs to be a complicit platform for hate.
your approach is exactly what happened on Reddit eventually leading to the current influx of members here now
reddit welcomed bigots since day one. Lemmy needn’t.
I don’t want Nazis but the best way to turn them is not by sending them into a forum where they are left unchecked.
Do they not already have enough recruiting grounds already for your liking? Why let them have this one too? Why should people on lemmy have to deal with all the hate against minorities? Why must bigots be welcome just to make others unwelcome?
My point here is not that I am. My point is that others would. The fact that you still do not understand that after reiterating it repeatedly in every single reply indicates to me that you are either not reading my replies or not in this discussion in good faith. You are what this community should leave behind. There was way too much of this on Reddit.
This is my #1 also. So many people "just asking questions"
I also hate the circlejerk of people going "I cannot possibly comprehend being gay/trans/disabled/whatever but I let them do what they want!" They're not aliens, you can listen to them explain what they are going through and have empathy. It's not very complicated.
Oh don’t get me started on the sealioning from the bigots! “But we need to have more Valuable Discussion™ about my horseshit that’s been debunked a million times already!”
I think it’s a good attitude to serve as a stepping stone away from bigotry, it appeals to the bigots by offering some common ground while giving them a path to becoming less outwardly bigoted. Social progress takes time, especially with attitudes engrained as much as homophobia used to be.
Agreed, I grew up in a very conservative area and was pretty homophobic when I started college.
"They can do whatever they want, just don't ask me to like it" was an important stepping stone towards "oh shit, love is love" and finally actually listening to the experience of gay people.
Ultimately "live and let live" is all we can ask of anyone. If that is their attitude then they aren't a bigot. People are expecting too much of other people now - not embracing someone does not make someone a bigot.
Your starting position to me is honestly enough but unfortunately many people are way away from that. As a gay guy, I'd be happy with people just saying "do whatever you want want, just don't ask me to like it". The problem is too many people claim that with words but then actually act differently.
Don't understand why you stereotyped people and basically insulted them and then wondered why people are offended? Yea? No one wants to see your fucking junk either. No, just because you're not gay doesn't make you any more or less likely to do what you are accusing them of.
reddit never functioned as a stepping stone away from bigotry. A lot of mods were content to offer their subs and users to serve as stepping stones for bigots to walk all over, though.
Their moderation policy basically allowed any abhorrent view as long as it was expressed in a “civil” manner.
Trolls and racists could say things like “well, in my humble opinion, black people are just inherently violent and unintelligent” and anyone who got irate and called them out would get a warning and/or banned.
To be fair to the /s we do live in a world with flat-earthers and antivaxxers. These days it can be exceedingly difficult to tell between the smartasses and dumbasses
It depends how obvious, but honestly I don’t think it’s that bad. Some non-native English speakers might not get sarcasm, and it also depends a bit on culture. British people are a fair bit more sarcastic than Americans and it’s not always obvious in text.
To be fair, that stemmed from an inability to sense tone through text. It doesn’t matter if something seems obviously sarcastic to you, other people don’t know you, or your sense of humor, and are more likely just to think you’re an asshole or blatantly wrong
I used to be a big proponent of “/s”. My rationale was that reddit was a worldwide site, and it wasn’t fair to exclude people who weren’t fluent in English. Plus, I didn’t want to live up to the stereotype of the selfish, arrogant American.
Now, I just don’t worry about it. Over time, I realized I could say something obvious and seemingly non-controversial, like “the sky is blue”, and people will disagree anyway. If somebody a thousand miles away takes a sarcastic statement literally, and decides that I’m an asshole, then so be it.
I don’t care too much whether people mark their sarcasm or not.
I usually do because I’ve seen enough fucked-up takes back at the other site (that I confirm they truly believe from their profile) that I don’t want people misunderstanding me, especially when my comment would begin with a sarcastic tone.
No, they can’t. The fediverse doesn’t work like that, it isn’t controlled by one entity, the most individual instances could do is defederate from Reddit.
When someone would ask a good question that you also wanna know the answer to, but then all the "answers" were just jokes bc everyone wanna get upvotes. I dont really mind jokes but those times it was a bit sad, then sometimes no one would answer for real bc i guess they see 10 replies and assume surely one of them is real already.
Also repost bots.
And apple vs samsung feuds.
And sometimes looked like whenever some people try to organize action or protests, comments just spamming that "protests do nothing" or "voting does nothing," or "what is this gonna do," not suggesting any other solution either, almost like trying to encourage apathy? Or discourage action. Sometimes i wondered if those were bots.
Also the r/wooosh when someone didn't understand a joke. .-.
Comprehension skills are severely lacking in a significant number of Americans. We know it based on the typical adult American reading level being so pathetically low. We know it from the interactions we see and have online with other Americans.
I firmly believe that comprehension gap is why people go hunting for perceived slights. Everywhere they turn is an opportunity for a new fight.
And it seems even worse with teens if we take Tiktok into account. The adults there aren’t much better. It is all really an indictment of the American education system.
Lemmy’s few hurdles are seemingly enough to keep these people out (for the most part). There also isn’t the critical mass of people to spark that mob mentality, at least that’s how I feel about it. People here are mostly chill overall and it truly reminds me of Reddit 15+ years ago.
That is inevitably going to change, for the worse, as apps refine the sign up and usage processes. That is inevitably going to change as bad actors, like Meta, are allowed to federate and push their low quality into our spaces along with advertisements disguised as posts and comments. We all know this is going to happen; threads will be used to run influence campaigns. That’s what happens with all of their properties, and with Reddit.
And people influential in Lemmy are signing NDAs with bad actors to allow it to happen.
Holy hell I absolutely hated seeing an interesting post or something an expert could chime in on to explain only for the entire comment section to be flooded with YouTube comments tier jokes
The Apple vs Android feuding has been done to death but man did Redditors love it and having used both extensively, I can say most of them are arguing over absolutely nothing.
They’re a different means to the same end result. No, dog piling on someone with a personal preference doesn’t make you “correct” just because the hive-mind resonates with your insults and rage.
Now I’m seeing the same shit with new Linux users buying Steam Decks. On the subreddit it’s basically asking for mass downvotes to say anything positive about Windows.
Just let people enjoy things however they want to, damn.
Nothing enrages me more when you have a very specific problem and the only result is a reddit thread that’s filled with jokes, irrelevant information, and no solution.
I remember the days when on reddit, the most insightful and genuine answers would get upvoted, because an upvote was related to the quality of the post, and not the “Meme”.
Or pics being grounds for sob stories and creative writing prompts to get more upvotes on theur shitty pictures. That’s why I unsubbed from r/pics and subbed to /r/nocontextpics. Cool photos, no sob stories.
Oh man, this is something I definitely hope to never see again. I’m so tired of the unbelievable TIFUs, AITAs, and/or OffMyChests with thousands of upvotes that had obviously-fake stories.
The worst one (in recent history) was that TIFU with the student who slept with their professor’s daughter.
Fucking A they were. No one can convince me otherwise. There was a style of writing that became obvious with the writers idiosyncrasies seeping through all the time with some very uncommon phrases and words being used that normal peons simply do not use.
And then there were the writing themes that would create engagement over a week-long period to boot by these same writers.
This may be an unpopular option since I’ve already seen it across lemmy, but the ____porn communities. I’d like to browse pictures of nice landscapes or exotic cars without worry about someone around me noticing “PORN” on my screen.
At this point it seems very old internet, something that made sense when those communities were established, but now is unnecessary gratuitous and not socially acceptable.
Couldn't agree more. It sucks to try to bring someone to a new platform and go "you love decorating right? Then check /r/roomporn! No no, it's not porn I swear... Sigh"
Damn, I had forgotten how obnoxious that was on Reddit. Blocked all of those years ago because it was just unnecessary and a gross way to qualify otherwise unremarkable photos.
I agree, but I also think that porn should still be welcome here. The issue is there needs to be better control over it entering the feeds, not that the communities themselves should be abolished.
I don't think porn should be welcome here. In far too many cases, porn equals abuse and/or human trafficking. I haven't got anything against looking at nekkid people, but there's way too much shittiness going on in the porn industry.
Oh duh I always hated the names of those subs. The only thing worse are subs like InterestingAsFuck and NextFuckingLevel which always gave the same vibes as a Watchmojo video.
Nothing like someone peaking over your shoulder and seeing you’re browsing r/AnimalPorn…
I totally agree with you. Hopefully lemmy can be a little more mature with community names. (Yeah, yeah… I know the hypocrisy of my username… It’s my gamertag)
Indeed. I like ‘Earthporn’ too, but I think it should be all nature pictures that look like genitalia and suchlike. Rocks or trees that look like penises for example.
What a wild site that was, some real loons were on it, but I did appreciate the fact it wasn’t so overly moderated. At the end though it just felt like a sanctuary of hate that had driven out most of the sane people.
If only Reddit would do the same thing that FB does. I would gladly take a month ban from time to time to stay on Reddit. But, they got me and like lots of other people, I didn’t say anything bad. Oh well, hopefully Reddit will go down in flames in 10 years or so.
Least original post: the dumbass comments parroting the same joke from 2018. It’s not even bots, it’s the zeitgeist and it’s only gonna get worse. Insert ‘old_man_shouts_at_sky.gif’
Political compass memes is the first place I ran into a tankie, followed by latestagecapitalism. Too bad they are already here. At least they keep to their own instance.
Dehumanisation. I feel as though people are increasingly becoming ok with other people being punished for their involvement in something that is genuinely wrong/evil/bad. But the people experiencing the steepest punishments are almost never the people with significant culpability for the wrong/evil/bad decisions.
"Just following orders" might not be a great excuse, but punishing pawns for a king's choices isn't an effective deterrent or remedy either.
This is (mostly) only in car subreddits, but actual car owners getting insulted and ridiculed for their new car choice by teenagers. I’ve seen this before on Reddit and this triggers me to no end.
Eh if you get a crossover SUV instead of a more practical and cheaper station wagon, hatchback or sedan that gives you more space and features for less money, I will still ridicule you.
Gonna be honest here, I believe crossover SUVs are actually more practical than sedans/hatchbacks for the average user. Higher ground clearance makes it easier to enter/exit for the average Joe, better visibility for new drivers, and the feeling of a more spacious interior; and more ride height helps with potholes/bumper scraping too. This may not be a issue in America I presume, but it is a daily problem in developing countries like India.
I get that it’s popular to hate on crossovers online, but really not every car buyers care about driving dynamics, or suitability for track days, or whatever. Do what you want, but people mostly won’t care and some will not like it regardless.
Taller vehicles have a higher center of mass and ar thus more prone to tipping over. They are also less fuel efficent and more dangerous to pedestrians in the event of an accident. Them being taller also makes it harder for people using lower riding cars to see by both impairing forward vision or by shining their headlights into the cabin.
I own an accord and I can’t tell you how many times someone in an SUV behind me blinded me at night by making my cabin as bright as the sun.
I never really was on reddit and I am beginning to miss the lemmy that existed a few days ago, it felt a bit cozier , less hectic and friendlier overall. Now all the same old reddit posts have migrated over and it seems I see a lot more low effort mean spirited cheap ‘jokes’ everywhere
I’ve been in the fediverse for a long time and and I’ve seen what a nightmare reddit is. So I can confidently say regardless of how long I’ve been in this community that I do not want to be a part of some kind of reddit 2.0 for all the reasons listed above.
Communities with videos of violence and assault, justice porn etc. I hate those, this is honey for conservatives and fascists, they love it and it disgusts me.
I watch fight videos to remind myself that the world is dangerous.
You’re right that it has to do with me becoming conservative.
I was liberal until one night I was attacked by a drunk rando. Traumatized me. Woke me up. Made me realize how fucking deeply horrifying violence is. Armed myself, because I’m worth it.
I didn’t make any conscious decision to switch, but I remember the exact moment I realized how fundamental the second amendment is. It was when I tried to buy pepper spray and was told I needed a permit. This was a homeless guy who’d just been attacked, being told he needed government paperwork to get a weapon.
I would explain more except this wef wef app doesn’t scroll correctly so I can’t see what I’m typing.
But yeah. I’m fascinated by violence now. And now that it’s been a decade since that attack, I find myself starting to feel safe again. Which is a very bad thing, because the world is NOT safe and falsely believing it was nearly ended my life. So I watch videos of guys getting slammed into concrete, despite the fact I hate it, to remind myself how fragile I am.
(scrolling seems to be fixed now?)
So that’s why I watch videos depicting street violence. And that’s how it’s related to my conservativism. Definitely not a coincidence.
Long story short, I’d say my being leftist ended the day I discovered how scary reality actually is, in a visceral and real way that no video or description of violence ever could show me. Once I realized what was at stake, I started thinking clearly about problems like violence (I couldn’t afford to pick ideas based on their level of pleasantness anymore), and realized that being ready for it is the only way to prevent it.
You cannot simultaneously prepare for and prevent war
Just throwing this out there, but while this is the direction you went to deal with the trauma you experienced, do you feel like it’s the healthiest path? I have a loved one with PTSD from trauma. There are many ways to deal with it, but I dare guess that therapy (with the right therapist for you) may give you better, healthier tools.
I’ve done plenty of therapy. The weapon is not to deal with the trauma, but to deal with the real possibility that someone bigger than me might decide I deserve a beating. If I disagree with that person, the only way to stop them is the weapon.
I don’t want to be traumatized again. I’m taking steps to arm myself because I now see what my naive non-exposure to violence allowed me to ignore: that the world is a place of danger where my body can be hurt by another human who decides to hurt my body.
The guy was only slightly bigger than me, but the fight was over in less than five seconds. After the fight was over, the beating began. A beating I was powerless to stop.
I carry a weapon for the purpose of being in charge of whether that ever happens to me.
The trauma I am dealing with through things that are effective with trauma.
The weapon is not a trauma treatment. It is a rational response to the danger of being around other people, just as a seat belt is a rational response to the danger of driving.
The difference between the danger of driving and the danger of being around people is that the danger of being around other people is horrifying. Not scary, not terrifying, but horrifying. It is deeply horrible to acknowledge that the people around you can turn into monsters, that they can become as deadly as a cobra or a spider.
We don’t feel this horror when contemplating the danger of cars, because we have no evolved instincts about cars. They’re mega dangerous, but we easily ignore that danger on a visceral level because we didn’t evolve in an environment where a toyota corolla might kill you.
We easily ignore the danger of people, ie we know it in our heads but not in our guts, just like with cars, but for a different reason. With humans the reason is that it’s horrifying knowledge. It’s dark, it’s ugly. It’s not something want to look at.
But once you are forced to look at it, eg like when you experience the violence yourself, you are forced to think about it. And if you think about it, it’s just as foolish and negligent to be around strangers without being armed, as it is to drive and not wear a seatbelt.
Before the encounter with violence, I was on the fence. I could see arguments both ways. Like “well, the weapon could stop an attacker but it could also be an unhealthy attachment …”.
But it’s no longer balanced for me. I’ve realized the danger of grievous injury or death is orders of magnitude more important than the potential I might get weird about the weapon.
Like, would you recommend a person avoid seat belts in order to avoid unhealthy coping with their trauma from a car accident?
The misconception with weapons is that they enable violence. But this guy was unarmed. All he had was some shoes. Other than that it was all just his body and his decision to hurt me.
Mods need to be regulated somehow. The r/SanDiego mod was a crazy power trip who lived in freaking Arizona and banned whatever and whenever he wanted. There’s gotta be done kind of checks and balances
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