Israelis critical of the government

“…there came a point, a few weeks ago, when I realized, the government isn’t going to end the war, isn’t bringing the hostages back, and isn’t helping the evacuees.”

" Increasingly, Netanyahu’s many opponents are questioning his handling of the war. Others are questioning the prime minister’s motives, suggesting his political interest lies in the continuation of the fighting, which inevitably delays his political demise. Netanyahu is currently under trial on various charges of corruption.”

Blamemeta,

Half the problem from a western civilian perspective is we just dont know the truth. We know Hamas massacres civilians, sets up torture rooms in hospitals, pretend to be noncombatants, and has a quality propaganda network. We know the IDF has at a very minimum killed civilians, and invaded homes, and maybe a lot more, but how much is propaganda and how much is truth?

We just dont know, and frankly Im frustrated that we dont know.

wintermute_oregon,

Since most the information out of Gaza is from Hamas, we know most of it is false.

Israel tries to minimize the amount of civilians killed. Hamas tries to maximize the amount of civilians killed.

Hamas needs to go.

BobaFuttbucker,

Are you suggesting Hamas is bombing Palestinians? Because I would love a source for that.

wintermute_oregon,

Hamas uses the civilian population as shields and fights in populated areas.

BobaFuttbucker,

Hamas doesn’t force Israel to bomb them, and Israel is capable of choosing not to bomb innocent civilians.

Blamemeta,

All the killing didnt force anything?

BobaFuttbucker,

What killing exactly? Forgive me it’s just that your comment is so vague.

Blamemeta,

Hamas killing innocent people. Oct 7th being the most well known example

BobaFuttbucker,

And the Israeli government killing people since November doesn’t factor in because……?

Blamemeta,

What about all the people Hamas killed since November? You keep focusing on the IDF, and completely ignore Hamas committing warcrimes

BobaFuttbucker,

Yeah the problem with conservatives is your only argument hinges on your conflation of hamas with the citizens of Palestine innocent in all this getting bombed by Israel.

I do not condone Hamas’ actions. Fuck em all to death. But that does not excuse Israel’s actions.

How about we just both agree that both governments suck ass and it’s the civilians paying the real price and that sucks?

wintermute_oregon, (edited )

What I find interesting is they try to separate Hamas from the Palestinians but link idf to the Israelis.

wintermute_oregon,

That is a silly thing to say.

BobaFuttbucker,

That’s your opinion.

wintermute_oregon,

You think Israel should just get killed and do nothing about it.

BobaFuttbucker,

Nope. That’s your conclusion-jumping at work.

We don’t all see things in extremes.

wintermute_oregon,

Then let’s hear your solution.

BobaFuttbucker,

Only if you promise to agree with it like you expect me to with yours.

Blamemeta,

Okay, here.

…wikipedia.org/…/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital_explosion

BobaFuttbucker,

Wait, so your argument is that an explosion in October (the cause of which - by your own source - is not yet known) justifies a 7 month killing spree by the Israeli government? Cool cool.

realcaseyrollins,
@realcaseyrollins@noauthority.social avatar

@BobaFuttbucker @Blamemeta IIRC all intelligence indicates that this was a misfire, the rocket was one in a set of rockets that was targeting civilians in . did not intentionally strike the hopsital.

BobaFuttbucker,

Try convincing Netanyahu of that.

Blamemeta,

When you start a war and refuse to sign ceasefires, yes. That justifies Hamas getting removed.

BobaFuttbucker,

You’re confusing Hamas with innocent citizens of Palestine.

Are the children in the line of fire Hamas?

Blamemeta,

And youre confusing Israel with the IDF. And we dont even know if IDF’s killings were on accident or on purpose. Hamas meant to slaughter thousands.

Edit: And yes, children are in the line of fire of Hamas. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_war_crimes en.wikipedia.org/…/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_b…

BobaFuttbucker,

We don’t know if the 7 months of attacks on Palestinians by the Israeli government is on purpose???

Blamemeta,

The fact is we dont have video. Hell, its unclear if it was IDF that did the killing, and if they did, what circumstances. Wouldnt be the first time we got lied to about who did what amd how.

BobaFuttbucker,

So if you know there’s a chance we’re being lied to, do you concede there’s a chance you’re on the wrong side of it?

Blamemeta,

Yes, I concede I might be wrong. Do you concede that we know that Hamas commits warcrimes?

BobaFuttbucker,

Yes, I’ve never once tried to justify the actions of Hamas.

I just don’t like that innocent civilians are being targeted by either side, or that Netanyahu is using Hamas’ attacks from 8 months ago to justify the continued killing of innocents.

Blamemeta,

You seem to focus a hell of a lot on the IDF, and not the guys who attacked first, and continued attacking. Hell, you act like Oct 7th were the only attacks.

BobaFuttbucker,

I’d like to focus on all the wrongdoings but you’re picking up on a focus that’s directly related to sentiment here in this community.

If it sounds like I’m focusing more on IDF than Hamas, it’s because the conservative viewpoint is so strongly focused on the inverse. I’m simply here reminding y’all that IDF isn’t exactly worth our support either.

I don’t really care how internet anons think I’m acting, honestly.

https://reddthat.com/pictrs/image/1adf974d-7c3b-4aac-b340-63ab9c86e9c0.jpeg

Blamemeta,

What thousands of children?

BobaFuttbucker,

You’re right, it’s tens of thousands of children.

Blamemeta,

Source? Also, state media from states that actively fund and support Hamas aren’t credible, so no Al-Jazeera.

amerika,
@amerika@annihilation.social avatar

@Blamemeta @Bongo_Stryker

This is typical of wars

realcaseyrollins,
@realcaseyrollins@noauthority.social avatar

@Blamemeta @Bongo_Stryker I'm pro , and support their side of the conflict, but there are some small (but significant) cases in which the very likely violated international law/the ; using , and the siege on , as well as potentially the targeting of the truck. Targeting probably looks like a genocidal tactic, but to be fair militants are likely there.

wintermute_oregon,

White Phosphorus is legal to use. Not sure why people keep repeating it isn’t.

White Phosphorus is used to create a smoke screen to allow your troops to move around. It is only illegal when used as a weapon and you don’t try to minimize civilian casualties.

Israel goes beyond their responsibility to minimize civilians casualties.

realcaseyrollins,
@realcaseyrollins@noauthority.social avatar

@wintermute_oregon Hmm. I never saw any clear confirmation as to why it was used during the war in the one case it was discovered.

wintermute_oregon,

Smoke. In an urban environment you need lots of smoke to move around. Otherwise you have to use more force which can risk civilians.

BobaFuttbucker,

Yeah cause we all know Israel values the lives of Palestine civilians 🙄

wintermute_oregon,

hudson.org/…/hamas-strategy-depends-maximizing-pa…

BobaFuttbucker,

Why are you using an opinion article from a conservative think tank? This has no value in proving your argument, it’s just a webpage that confirms your beliefs.

wintermute_oregon,

You mean why would I use a conservative source on a consecutive forum? Aka the truth.

BobaFuttbucker,

Oh geez so you really are just using this community to self-confirm your bias and assert your correctness, rather than actually have any kind of real discussion with other users. Cause if it were the second thing you wouldn’t have just called an op piece “the truth”.

Cringey af my guy.

wintermute_oregon,

You’re not having a discussion. You’re crying about the source.

BobaFuttbucker,

Interesting that rather than simply admit “yeah you know what? My source is an opinion article and not necessarily fact” you have to frame it as me crying about it so you can avoid admitting to yourself that maybe you made a bad call.

Say whatever you want to say to make yourself feel superior, I’m simply happy knowing I’m right about this and you have no substantial response, like the other countless threads you’ve dipped out of throughout the week.

wintermute_oregon,

You didn’t offer a counter. You offered whining about it.

I can’t have a conversation about crying. Offer a counter cite.

BobaFuttbucker,

It’s not my job to do the arguing for you, which is basically the same thing you said to me last week when the inverse happened in another thread. You gave a bad reference, it’s that simple.

I guess that means you’re welcome to cry about it.

In the meantime I welcome anything that’s not just some conservative think tank dude’s published thoughts.

wintermute_oregon,

No, the reference is good, but you want to whine about it.

It is well known Hamas uses people as human shields. You have yet to counter that.

stratcomcoe.org/publications/…/87

washingtonpost.com/…/amnesty-international-says-h…

NATO States it, and Amnesty International states it, yet you don’t offer a counterpoint other than but why is a conservative posting a conservative source in a conservative forum.

BobaFuttbucker,

Hahaha you can’t provide a good source to save your life and rather than actually try you’re just making it other people’s problem 🤣

Even Amnesty International has been found by the US Government of being one-sided and biased.

Washington post article is another opinion article, AND it’s paywalled.

Stratcomcoe just 404’s.

Now I’m starting to think you’re straight up incapable of finding a credible source for your arguments. Maybe that just means your arguments aren’t credible? You should read Rule 2.

wintermute_oregon,

Hahaha you can’t provide a good source to save your life and rather than actually try you’re just making it other people’s problem 🤣

Rule 2 - my source is a reliable conservative source.

You’re free to counter cite when you’ve refused to do because you know I’m right.

I just cited you nato and amnesty international Both are reliable sources.

BobaFuttbucker,

Well it’s reliably conservative, I’ll give you that. The problem is when you’re only paying attention to conservative sources you keep yourself in a little echo chamber and never actually know what’s going on.

theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

wintermute_oregon,

It isn’t my job to seek out other sources. I seek out the truth. I just cited three serious to your zero.

BobaFuttbucker,

It’s also not my job to seek out other sources just because yours are bad, so where is this thread going?

wintermute_oregon,

Sounds you are arguing in bad faith. That’s where the argument is going

BobaFuttbucker,

lol for what, not being convinced by a biased news source? If you’re correct then your argument should hold up to basic scrutiny, and should be available in information sources other than conservative opinion articles.

A conservative saying “I’m right because I found a conservative person on the internet that says the same thing” isn’t a good faith argument either. It’s textbook confirmation bias. It also convinces literally nobody, which is probably why most of the activity on this community is from people with dissenting opinions.

But feel free to continue deluding yourself with even more groupthink, it’s your community.

wintermute_oregon,

You think amnesty internal is conservative ? That’s trolling.

BobaFuttbucker,

I didn’t say conservative, I said one-sided.

Bold of you to assume that’s the side.

I also didn’t say I believed they were, they’ve just been found to have been previously by entities such as the US Government, which you’ve previously aligned with on issues like Israel/Palestine.

I guess you only believe government entities when they say what you want to hear.

realcaseyrollins, (edited )
@realcaseyrollins@noauthority.social avatar

@Blamemeta @Bongo_Stryker Thing is, violating international law and the rules of war are not the same as committing a genocide. Genocide is a very specific claim that does not meet the standard for. It's interesting to note as well that despite the (albeit minority) amount of American more mad at than , has done far, far worse in the war than the has.

Has the raped civilians? I think not.

realcaseyrollins,
@realcaseyrollins@noauthority.social avatar

@Blamemeta @Bongo_Stryker *I think not

amerika,
@amerika@annihilation.social avatar

@realcaseyrollins @Blamemeta @Bongo_Stryker

Good summary. The worst we have IDF on is hitting the wrong targets while the Palestinians used them as human shields.

wintermute_oregon,

Has the IDF raped civilians? Shit questions. Most likely yes, some soldiers have but the IDF as a whole does not.

American soldiers have raped women. That doesn’t mean the US supports it. We punish those who do.

realcaseyrollins,
@realcaseyrollins@noauthority.social avatar

@wintermute_oregon No no no not soldiers; the , as a military group, as part of a militant campaign. People tend to do whatever when they're off duty, that doesn't exactly count.

Bongo_Stryker,

For months, any criticism of Israel’s government was met with accusations of antisemitism, accusations of being “pro-hamas”. Now that I am pointing out there is criticism of Israel’s government coming from Israeli citizens inside Israel, the discussion I see generated avoids the actual topic and goes like: Well Hamas is very bad and has committed terrible atrocities and the IDF may have made a few regrettable mistakes but ackchyually white phosphorus is not illegal…

Why is it so hard for anyone to admit there could be valid reasons to be unhappy with Israel’s government - reasons that are not antisemitic or pro-hamas, neither marxist nor nazi, but practical reasons relating to good governance not only for Palestine but Israel itself?

Bongo_Stryker,

Foolish Bongo, you will never receive any admission of wrongdoing by Israel from those who adore her. They demand to hear the condemnation of hamas.

Therefore, yes ok, I condemn Hamas. Fuck hamas! Let them all be separated from this world and sent for divine judgment.

But this isn’t enough. You must also agree that Israel should expand her borders.

You must also agree that there is no such thing as a Palestinian, it is a media invention.

You must agree that a two state solution is unthinkable, can never happen, at any cost.

You must agree that the lives of any non-jewish person in east Jerusalem, in the west bank, in Gaza are worthless.

You must agree they should all be killed, men women and children because they are all hamas.

You must agree that anyone who does not accept these prepositions as absolute truth and fact is antisemitic, is a nazi, is also hamas.

Well that’s going too far for me and I can’t agree with that.

Bongo_Stryker, (edited )

Well what could be going on in Israel, if people are unhappy with Netanyahu’s handling of the war (killing Israeli hostages, for example) and unhappy with Israel’s extremist right wing government in general? Do you suppose this criticism is coming from hippie leftist antisemitic hamas supporters? My conservative friends tell me any criticism of Israel’s a government is certainly hippie leftist nazi antisemitic hamas-loving woke transgender propaganda.

If I understand the timeline correctly, in September, Netanyahu was unpopular, in trouble for corruption, and people were demonstrating in the streets. Suddenly, there was an attack and all dissatisfaction with Likud and Netanyahu vanished.

How could Israel’s security forces have blundered so badly to allow such an attack, resulting in a long war agsinst a shadowy guerrilla enemy that you can never be completely sure you’ve defeated? A war that seems to keep Netanyahu in power. I’m just asking questions.

Lynthe,

The problem with your assessment is here:

“Suddenly, there was an attack and all dissatisfaction with Likud and Netanyahu vanished.”

Very much this is not the case. The removal of Netanyahu is a slow process but his lasting support primarily was based on his promise of domestic security for Israelis and that has obviously disappeared. Democracy is a slow process.

Bongo_Stryker,

Ok, I will admit to some hyperbole.

But what about this: I have read here and there that Netanyahu has for years supported hamas. There were accusations of leaked secret military plans and suitcases of cash being delivered to hamas. Of efforts to curb the activities of the palestine authority but no such effort to disrupt hamas. Of course I don’t know if any of these accusations are true or not. This is the kind of stuff one reads in Haaretz, which admittedly, as all media, has a bias.

Still, could these allegations be true? And, if so, how striking that when Netanyahu was in both political and legal trouble, the pogrom of Oct 7 preserved his position. The suspicious and conspiratorial minded among us might try to make something there, however I don’t want to make any suggestions like that.

BobaFuttbucker,

So glad to see this here.

It’s one thing to defend yourself and your country from a group of terrorists.

It’s another thing entirely to use it as justification to seemingly wipe out that entire country’s population.

Netanyahu is power tripping super hard rn. Why anyone would agree with that is beyond me.

EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY.

Bongo_Stryker,

EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY

Best advice in the whole thread.

SatansMaggotyCumFart,

Netanyahu shouldn’t be afraid of an election if what he is doing is popular.

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