Alex Jones is profiting from his new game on Steam — while refusing to pay the Sandy Hook families he defamed

Following his trial for defamation of the families of the children and school staff killed in the Sandy Hook massacre, conspiracy theorist Alex Jones is using Valve Corp.’s Steam, the world’s largest digital distribution platform for PC games, to sell an Infowars-themed video game. Jones claims to have earned hundreds of thousands in revenue from the video game, yet he has refused to pay the Sandy Hook families. Alex Jones: NWO Wars also mirrors and cartoonishly repackages the conspiracy theorist’s regularly violent, hateful rhetoric despite the platform’s policies against hate speech.

yesman,

Look, people need something to play after they’ve finished Hogwarts Legacy.

TomAwsm,

No matter what side you’re on, this is a quality joke.

Kolanaki,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

And unfortunately, that Stormfront Doom mod isn’t on Steam afaik.

Tarquinn2049,

What’s up with Hogwarts legacy? It’s one of the most progressive minded games I’ve ever played, so much so that J.K.Rowling herself tried to taint it by saying money that went to that game supported her views instead of the views in the game. Even though she doesn’t get any residuals from sales. She tried to tank sales to get back at them for making an open minded game instead of one that aligns with her views.

4am,

Lots of TERFs and anti-LGBTQ+ knuckledraggers made it a point to “play wizard game to own the libs” after many people decided not to play it on grounds that, regardless of whether or not it directly supported JK Rowling, it certainly indirectly supports her by spotlighting Harry Potter.

Also, as you said, JK Rowling tried to fuck with it because she’s a pissed off TERF, and some people just want to distance themselves from that whole mess.

In other words, Hogwash Legacy became a virtue signal for the fragile snowflakes on the right to stand cucked in solidarity with their astroterf queen.

Donkter, (edited )

Right… But how is that the games fault if it’s a good game with a very progressive message? If anything you would want people on the right to be tricked into playing a game that supports what they fear.

yesman,

It’s one of the most progressive minded games I’ve ever played

That is such an incredibly low bar. What passes as progressive values in AAA games is just a shoehorned and saccharine checklist progressiveness. I can almost understand why the chuds get annoyed because playing some games can be like bad corporate DEI training.

Right wing ideology meanwhile is baked into gameplay. It doesn’t matter much if the themes are anti-racist so long as every problem can be solved with the right gun. It doesn’t matter if you’re a socialist state in a strategy game who’s economy is straight out of the Chicago school.

A couple games get it right. “This War of Mine” shows you what’s happening in the out of bounds areas of Call of Duty. “Darkest Dungeon” is a microscope on the exploitation of capitalism. But good luck finding something like this in the AAA space.

grue,

It doesn’t matter much if the themes are anti-racist so long as every problem can be solved with the right gun.

Welp, so much for me trying to cite Wolfenstein 3D as a progressive-minded AAA game.

Donkter,

Guns are only for the right. Clutch my pearls and call me a swine if any leftist movement ever used violence, let alone gasp guns to accomplish their goal!

theangryseal,

Leftist here with a gun, but I do not believe in using violence unless someone is using violence against me or mine directly. I wouldn’t dream of using a gun to accomplish any goal other than eating or recreational shooting. I believe that we’re intelligent enough to accomplish political and social goals without violence. Violence is a lazy way to do that and just creates more violence down the road. That’s just, like, my opinion though.

blazeknave,

Can’t they just garnish his shit and empty his bank accounts?

Fades,

If this was a fair and just county, sure

if

blazeknave,

They just hate our freedoms cause they anus

SulaymanF,

They will, but he threw up roadblocks that the court has to move through. He moved his money behind dummy corporations that the court has to investigate first before they can “pierce the corporate veil,” for example.

blazeknave,

Yeah, that makes sense. Thx

Kolanaki,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Surely that could be interpreted as being in contempt of court. Just lock his ass up and throw away the key.

toed,

I’ll stick to playing Broforce

DrPop,

Piracy and possible donating to the game studio is the morally correct choice.

evranch,

So here’s the problem with piracy as a protest… It doesn’t cost the publisher anything. Which has always been kind of the point of piracy.

Unfortunately when you pirate this game you receive an item of negative value, so I would recommend just staying away from the whole thing.

Quoll_Strife,

Why would you donate to the arse clowns who made this for him?

DrPop,

That’s why I said possibly. They could have just been contractors, but now it seems they are an inhouse production.

pastaq,

The game studio only has one game…

DrPop,

Let’s hope it stays that way.

GoodbyeBlueMonday,

Anyone know if it would it be worth reporting this as Defamatory on Steam? There are options for Legal Violation, Harmful, Fraud, Defamatory…without having played it it’s hard to throw it in any of those specific categories, because they mostly have to do with the software itself, though Defamation might work since I’d be surprised if the content doesn’t contain defamatory statements (even if they’re wrapped in attempted irony for legal wiggle room).

makyo,

I flagged it as harmful because it isn’t directly related to the defamation case. But I’m sure either gets your point across, and if Valve gets enough complaints maybe they’ll actually realize they don’t need a man criminally liable for misusing media, to benefit spreading media on their platform.

stratosfear,

I flagged it as Child Exploitation for the simple fact one of the screenshots says Epstein Island…

Grant_M,
@Grant_M@lemmy.ca avatar

I did as well ✌️

CharlesDarwin,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

That’s a good idea.

BobGnarley,

It isnt though wasting a companies resources for false child exploitation accusations ties up those limited resources to investigate actual child endangerment.

maniacalmanicmania,
@maniacalmanicmania@aussie.zone avatar

Followed suit. Cheers.

BobGnarley, (edited )

Please do explain how showing a picture of Epstein Island is child exploitation. I would love to have that make sense. If there was a daycare that hurt children and I had a picture of the outside of the daycare how in the fuck is that Child exploitation? Its a game about conspiracy theories and political events. That dude who ran that island mysteriously died with no cameras on him and some new guards that were asleep. A lot of people know he did not kill himself so that being unprovable makes it a conspiracy theory which is no surprise it would make it to a game about conspiracy theories. Fuck Alex Jones but also fuck a bunch of dumbasses wasting Valves time and reasources reporting shit that isnt happening. God you people are STUPID I dont understand how people can be so out of touch with the reality around them. Also harmful reportings? Go take a look at the top games on steam especially the Hentai ones where the thousand year old characters look like children THATS child exploitation but showing a picture of espstein island is not child exploitation. You can google pictures of Epstein Island right now, pages upon pages should I report Google for child exploitation? Common sense is dead

stratosfear,

M O N E T I Z A T I O N

(And yes Japanese anime pedo culture is gross too but that’s just a red herring regarding this)

Also, “wasting valves time” gtfo… They made a billion dollars off skins in loot crates, they have plenty of fucking “time.”

BobGnarley,

Dont forget to report Google too they have the gall to host this on their servers!1!1 man I bet if any realtor tries to list it for sale we can get them too!! We should never see anything about it existing ever again so people forget about it! /S if it isnt painfully obvious.

www.google.com/search?q=epstein+island&sca_esv=f9…

BobGnarley,

Shit, better report me too! I shared a picture of Epstein Island from google search!!

stratosfear,

I’d report you just for not removing everything after the ? in your dumb link

BobGnarley, (edited )

Jesus you and everyone who commented on this comment is dumb fuck I hate the dude too and he should pay his debts but my god dude how is it anymore harmful than like a million other games that exist? Pirate the shit. But reporting it for child exploitation like that one dude said because it showed Epstein Island is moronic as fuck its a game about conspiracy theories and it isnt any more harmful or defaming than a million other games that exist right now on steam. It doesnt show children being exploited. One thing I notice on Lemmy a lot is people who are like “well I dont like this so other people shouldnt get to like it either.” Fucking christ just pirate the damn game so you dont give him money or dont play it if the courts dont get bought off then their should be no problem with them seizing the money he made off the game. But to report it for child exploitation and defamation is mega fucking stupid my god

GoodbyeBlueMonday,

Jesus you and everyone who commented on this comment is dumb fuck

You said, in your comment to my comment…

Look: you’re putting so many words in my mouth, it’s probably not worth replying, so…

BobGnarley,

You’re reporting a game youve never even played for made up reasons because you dont like the guy who made it. I read your comment and didnt put any words in your mouth

GoodbyeBlueMonday,

Read my comment again then, because I didn’t say I had reported it, or even that i would. I still haven’t.

I was specifically asking if it’s even worth reporting, since it would be mostly because he’s a grifter and this seems shady. Again though, I offer no solid reason why, other than wanting him to just go away.

CharlesDarwin,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

I do find it weird that Steam actually had this as a game pushed to me. Not sure if that was targeted due to other game choices I’ve made, but I saw the ad and laughed and shook my head.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Alex Jones got to his position by gaming the advertisement system for self-promotion. I can’t say I’m shocked to see his video game once again exploiting the Steam store’s algorithm, just like he’d gamed the YouTube and Twitter algorithms before.

You’ll see Ann Coulter do the same thing with book sales. Have someone straw-purchase 10,000 copies of “Smelly: The Liberal Campaign To Fart A Lot And How It Is Destroying America”, and rocket to the top of the Best Seller Lists.

toed,

Don’t under estimate how many conspiracy theorists and conservatives are on Steam. A good portion of my friends list is fractured after 2016 and 2020

CharlesDarwin,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

I think Regnery Press does that last bit all the time…I don’t know if people that maintain such lists take that kind of thing into account or not. And yeah, I have no trouble believing that Lil Alex found some demon willing to help him game the Steam system.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t know if people that maintain such lists take that kind of thing into account or not

It takes more work to find out who is purchasing the books, particularly if the publisher includes straw-purchases as part of its marketing strategy and therefore has an incentive to report their number inaccurately.

I have no trouble believing that Lil Alex found some demon willing to help him game the Steam system.

He’s got enough money to simply do it himself (or outsource the process to professionals). Sort of a priming-the-pump method to marketing. Its very possible that the vig Steam gets from your straw purchases is less than the cost of paying them upfront to advertise your game. Also possible he’s doing both, in which case Steam has a strong economic incentive not to discourage this behavior.

SpaceCowboy,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

At one time the NY Times bestseller list put this dagger (†) icon at the end of the summary when it happened. That way people in the know would get it was because of bulk sales.

But I think NYT changed how they do their best seller list to be a survey of booksellers, and probably just don’t include bulk sales at all anymore. But I don’t know. But if you see a dagger on a bestseller list, it means shenanigans are afoot. (†)

CharlesDarwin,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

The sad thing is that the people most likely to know about the shenanigans are the ones least likely to fall for Regnery schemes in the first place…those least likely to know are the target audience of Regnery, etc…

SpaceCowboy,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Yeah but it’s probably well beyond the scope of making a best seller list to convince the people that have already been fooled by these scammers that these people are scammers.

doctorcrimson, (edited )

I get pushed conservative bullshit all the time in ads, but almost never on steam. Part of it is that I’ve intentionally limited the spread of my personal information and also given out more false information than real, so Google isn’t sure if I’m an 84 year old woman in Montana or a 23 year old man using a VPN from Wales. They end up just pushing targeted ads for those vague locations.

EDIT: Pro Tip, if a signup asks for an address for any reason other than shipping/billing then you can just enter a random church address and it usually works.

ImADifferentBird,
@ImADifferentBird@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I usually just put 123 Main Street, Schenectady, NY 12345. Most places don’t even check to see if it’s a real address.

SpaceCowboy,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

I usually go with 123 Rodeo Drive, Beverly Hills, 90210

CharlesDarwin,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

I think there are some plugins that will autofill things like that? Not sure what the current best one is.

doctorcrimson,

Even the word autofill causes cringe to me, so I’ve definitely never heard of it.

CharlesDarwin,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

What a dirtbag. I just had to explain to someone younger what that “infowars” sticker on someone’s car means.

The TL;DR version is: “avoid that person”.

evranch,

Despite my usual attitude towards free speech, I will put in the effort to peel an “Infowars” sticker off of a pole if it looks like easy prey.

Fuck Alex Jones and all the conspiracist bullshit he stands for

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

Fuck Alex Jones

Agreed. After his Bohemian Grove success he was only in it for the money.

and all the conspiracist bullshit he stands for

Hang on. Are you saying the public should unquestionably believe everything the government and corporations tell us?

evranch,

No, just that you should get your information from verifiable sources and not from people who profit from making up “truth”.

There are plenty of real conspiracies out there and they’re mostly boring - schemes to swindle the last dollars out of the public pocket.

You rarely hear about these from people who deal in “conspiracy theories” though.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

you should get your information from verifiable sources and not from people who profit from making up “truth”.

Totally agree. This definition includes CEO, marketing departments, news outlets and politicians working for lobbyists and corporate sponsors.

CharlesDarwin,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

This was on a car; I won’t mess with someone’s car. But in any case, I don’t think free speech applies to whipping up a mob to harass grieving parents. Some of these people had to move multiple times and the stochastic terrorism still went on. For over a decade. He’s screaming fire in a crowded theater, or worse. He can f right off with that kind of “free speech”.

Back in the 90s, I found Alex to be a rather humorous curiosity in the same realm as high weirdness in other areas like the Discordians or Church of the Subgenius only without the humor; these days I find him and his followers to be a threat to society. I think 9/11 and then, later, the likes of donnie really, really put him into a dark place. That, and the pursuit of filthy lucre.

evranch,

For sure, Jones’ right to free speech should have been curtailed long ago.

I’m more referring to the sticker poster’s speech. I won’t deny people the right to promote their ideology, but when that ideology is having fallen for a con man then it’s not legitimate in any way. Same goes for Scientology or other exploitative crap.

AeonFelis,

This article invests a lot of effort trying to make it look like it’s all Steam’s responsibility.

UnderpantsWeevil,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

It IS their store.

AeonFelis,

Which makes them responsible for enforcing that he pays to the families?

Yerbouti,

No, but still, its a private business, they could have refuse to publish this dirtbag’s game. But yeah it’s capitalist world so as long as it makes money its ok.

ImADifferentBird,
@ImADifferentBird@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

It makes them responsible for giving a platform to a libelous hatemonger.

force,

very cool America

mob,

I’m curious. What would you like “America” to do in this situation?

Syndic,

As in the US justice system? Actually follow his money trail and stop it where ever he hides it until he has payed back every cent of the bill he owns.

force,

Have an actually functioning legal and economic system so people like this can’t be created nor have this sort of power in the first place? When you have criminals running businesses making bank, multi-millionaires even, while not giving his victims the compensation that they’re supposed to be getting, you’ve fucked up. Seize his assets and distribute them to the people who he defamed, take all of his earnings except for the bare minimum he needs to survive until this debt is paid off (which it won’t be since it’s far more than he could ever pay anyways). That’s what he should expect if he disobeys legal orders and refuses to do the bare minimum in paying victims out.

mob,

They already froze his assets and are in the processes of collecting for the families. They already ruled bankruptcy is not an excuse not to pay.

The legal systems seems to agree with what you want the desired outcome to be. I guess the only difference is you want to government to be able to have full control over everything, so they can take it instantly?

Snapz,

America removed the fairness doctrine under Reagan - that action is a direct line to allowing for an Alex Jones. “America” had somewhat functioning structures to prevent unchecked, rampant disinformation on the airwaves, Reagan removed it.

On the brighter side, every time I mention the fairness doctrine I get a brief reminder that Reagan and rush Limbaugh are now both bloated, rotting corpses. The more time passes, history will only remember them as the monsters they were. Their propagandists die off more by the day and eventually only the facts of the damage they did to society will remain

mob,

Did Alex Jones ever hold a broadcast license for the fairness doctorine to be applicable?

Pretty sure he got popped a few years ago for his pirate radio. And then got popped with the biggest defamation fine ever.

Snapz,

An alex jones doesn’t become an alex jones without a rush limbaugh and a fox news. And you don’t get a rush limbaugh or fox news at the scale of influence they had without what reagan did to the Fairness Doctrine.

They would have otherwise stayed on the fringe, where they belong (if anywhere) to make their spurious, wholly unfounded claims about how the children that were shot in the face with an assault rifle weren’t shot in the face with an assault rifle.

rabiddolphin,
@rabiddolphin@lemmy.world avatar

George W. Bush still hasn’t been charged for war crimes

Takios,

Great, so we can just let every other criminal off the hook until that happens? What a wonderful idea.

SphereofWreckening,

Both deserve jail time for the rest of their lives. And even that’s too good for them. What’s your point?

Zealousideal_Fox900,

Lock him up (for life, 0 chance of getting out), Access his bank accounts, pay out the damn families already, forget about him and let him rot in there.

danikpapas,

Ooooo TALKING = LIFE SENTENCE . Maybe you should talk a therapist and let the anger out peacefully. Don’t involve your emotions. Surely a rational person cannot think that is a reasonable punishment.

get_off_the_phone,

Do you like Alex Jones?

charonn0,
@charonn0@startrek.website avatar

Depends on what they’re talking about.

e.g. “Let’s plan a murder” vs. “Let’s plan dinner”

Zealousideal_Fox900,

(Most sane supporter of him)

rabiddolphin,
@rabiddolphin@lemmy.world avatar

Do you think he did the shooting himself?

CharlesDarwin,
@CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world avatar

He is one of the key figures leading a mob that has made the lives of parents a living hell.

Schadrach,

Lock him up (for life, 0 chance of getting out)

Defamation is a civil matter, so there’s no chance of this. There’s really only one case in the US where someone can be locked up for failing to pay what they owe from a civil court decision, and that’s child support.

Zealousideal_Fox900,

:(

K0W4LSK1,

Fun fact the game can be beaten in 45 minutes and steam refund policy allows returns on games played 2 hours or less

thorbot,

That is a fun fact. Here’s an ever funner fact: Don’t give your money to assholes and then take it back. Just like, don’t give it to them in the first place.

superpants,

I’m pretty sure steam has like a 3 month lag time to pay out anyway.

PostaL,

True… But if you buy and return it you can give it a negative review?

CowsLookLikeMaps,

Now we’re talkin’

K0W4LSK1,

I live in the middle of nowhere and rely on amazon sadly just not possible for me

danikpapas,

Doesn’t make sense. You give them money. Enjoy (only some do enjoy) the game. Get money back. Net sum is positive if the game was fun for you.

Subverb,

I’ll take this opportunity to plug a tiny podcast that I stumbled onto called “Some Dare Call it Conspiracy”. It’s hosted by two English guys that were hard-core conspiracy theorists for 15 years.

They now discuss, debunk and interview people around the conspiracy life. It’s really fascinating to learn about Pizzagate, Chemtrails, Hunter Biden’s Laptop and Jeffery Epstein from very knowledgeable people but in an environment of debunking.

Their latest episode is an interview with Rob Jacobson, a former staffer for Alex Jones that worked for him for 12 years. Jacobson ended up testifying against Jones in the Sandy Hook trial. The episode is on their Patreon at the moment but will roll out to the general public in a few days. Fascinating stuff and Jones is every bit as shady as one expects.

stratoscaster,

Thanks for the recommendation! I’m a huge Behind the Bastards fan, anything in that vein is super fascinating to me.

theangryseal,

I love that podcast. I’ve been listening to one that a trucker recommended to me recently. It’s full of inside jokes so it takes a minute to be all in, but it’s really fun. It’s called Timesuck with Dan Cummins. Not every episode is perfect and it’s a bit long, but I love it.

stratosfear,

Ugh, I was so excited for this … And at about 20 minutes into the first chemtrail episode they say contrails are the exhaust fumes coming out of engines :facepalm:

Subverb,

That doesnt square with the fact that these guys were hard-core conspiracy theorists? 😂😂

stratosfear,

Haha good point, at least they are trying 😏

rabiddolphin,
@rabiddolphin@lemmy.world avatar

How do you debunk Epstein? He was convicted

EmptySlime,

Probably meaning the “Epstein Didn’t Kill Himself” theory.

elbarto777,

Did OP say anything about Epstein’s crimes? No. He may be referring to the fact that people think that he didn’t kill himself (I don’t have a specific opinion on the matter.)

Edit: I just looked up the episode’s description: “Welcome to part one of episode 7!! The big question we’re asking today… Did Jeffrey Epstein kill himself?? Everyone has an opinion on this, what’s yours?”

Subverb,

Yes, but did he kill himself? It’s an interesting discussion, especially from the point of view of conspiracy theorists who literally think shape-shifting lizards are involved.

ook_the_librarian, (edited )
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

I’m a huge Knowledge Fight fan. And your recommendation sounds right up my alley.

KF is a podcast done “the dollop style” with the broadcasts of Alex Jones, both modern and years old episodes. Dan Freissen has listened to 1000s of hours infowars, has read None Dare Call It a Conspiracy (which is why the recommendation perked my ears), has read Protocols of the Elders of Zion, “you name it”.

He shows how AJ’s Globalizist conspiracy is just a reskinning of old antisemitic writings.

Dan was flown to Texas to help the lawyers of the Sandy Hook defamation trial. I can’t say enough about how much I respect him.

Btw, by “the dollop style”, I mean comedian Dan Friessen tells his findings to comedian Jordan Holmes who is naïve on the topic.

Edit: Knowledge Fight has zero ads. Never has. No paywalls. They have no interest in sensationalizing. It feels very honest.

I’ll link the episode most inline with this article. with Sandy Hook lead counsel Mark Bankston.

It seems like you folks like Behind the Bastards. They’ve been guests a few times. Here’s one Part One: How The Rich Ate Christianity

Edit: I wanted to clarify the relevance of . That came out in 2021, right after the default judgement was issued in Texas. I believe the lawyers never gave interviews until that ruling. I listened back. It’s a neat little time capsule. Just skip ahead until you hear Mark Bankston speak if it’s your first taste.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

Can you link directly to the pizzagate one. I’ve never heard a good debunk beyond “there is no basement so nothing is true”.

ook_the_librarian,
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

The short answer is no. I can’t think of when tried a pizzagate debunking. (They are going on 900 episodes.) I do distinctly remember an early episode when they analyze an undercover Periscope video inside Comet Ping Pong.

For a hopefully longer, but slower, answer, I made a thread asking the small community on lemmy.world.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

I don’t believe Pizzagate was ever bunked, or debunked. The problem is that there are so many claims made that a rigorous debunk is difficult and time consuming.

The best attempt was NY Times that covered some details but cherry picked the claims it could debunk and completely ignored others.

Rolling Stones made a feeble effort spending most of the article on how the story spread, not it’s veracity.

ook_the_librarian,
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

In the body of the thread a posted on c/knowledgefight, I bring up that I didn’t care about pizzagate because there really no damages. No victims coming forward. No suspicious activity. Nothing.

The only thing interesting about pizzagate is how strongly people can hold on to beliefs with zero backing. I’m sure 99% of posts about pizzagate are LARPing really. (I think the same of Flat Earth. At least, way back when.) But we know how seriously some people belief it.

In fact, I’d go as far as to say, the fact there is no evidence backing it up is precisely why this stuff is so dangerous. If some one is mentally unsteady enough to accept any reason to hate their enemies, they are probably pretty dangerous to be around already. Now use a massive media operation so that person need no other source of news. He (sorry to be sexist, but I’m going to stick with “he” for the easily influenced viewer’s pronoun) knows he’s right. He hears nothing but that he is right. However, out in the dangerous part of the world, no one cares about this. It’s so fucking easy to dismiss this stuff. Why would anyone believe it?

This feels like persecution, gaslighting, and like “they” are all in on it. That’s fucking powder-keg as we saw in this matter.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

the body of the thread a posted on c/knowledgefight,

I’ll take a listen to the podcast, but I think you are right in that it’s only tangentially relevant. Although it’s existence shows the topic won’t die easily.

No victims coming forward.

Such a bad argument. Are you expecting an abused kid to file a police report? Look at Epstein’s Virginia Giuffre who is now 40! At least the guardian’s of the kids in the Instagram photos should have been questioned.

No suspicious activity.

There was enough to send 4chan and reddit into a frenzy. I think you mean that there was no definitive proof.

The only thing interesting about pizzagate is how strongly people can hold on to beliefs with zero backing.

I thought the most interesting thing was how hard the pushback was. Pizza owners on the news, 10 min features on Colbert, NYT and Rolling Stone articles, banning of subreddits and censoring of search results. Try to find the steemit article I linked above. There was a well organised PR campaign against “nothing”.

I suspect some of the conclusions being drawn from highly circumstantial evidence were too close to the truth for some influential people’s comfort.

I’m sure 99% of posts about pizzagate are LARPing really.

Initially all politicians were suspected (e.g. Hastert is republican). It turned into a right wing topic after qanon stoked the fires.

In fact, I’d go as far as to say, the fact there is no evidence backing it up is precisely why this stuff is so dangerous.

True. On the other hand, vigilantism occurs when the police say they’ve investigated but actually haven’t. (Sorry impossible to back this statement in 2024. If you doubt me, find some official DC police reports unrelated to the gunman attack)

However, out in the dangerous part of the world, no one cares about this. It’s so fucking easy to dismiss this stuff. Why would anyone believe it?

It happened in Belgium, UK, France, Portugal etc. People there cared. Why not also in the US?

This feels like persecution, gaslighting, and like “they” are all in on it.

Podesta and Alefantis have certainly been persecuted by the Internet. And probably still are being 8 years later. Their no comment policy certainly backfired.

ook_the_librarian, (edited )
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

While I don’t find it particularly endearing that you are trying to dunk on a guy that is admittedly not engaged in the topic, I’ll bite

the body of the thread a posted on c/knowledgefight,

I’ll take a listen to the podcast, but I think you are right in that it’s only tangentially relevant. Although it’s existence shows the topic won’t die easily.

Personally, I think we should move the conversation there since posting here feels like you’re trying to get more eyeballs on this stuff. I find this stuff dangerous, and it’s usually best discussed in a more focused group.

I don’t recall calling the episode tangentially relevant. It contains the best evidence I’ve heard for Pizzagate.

I’ll be honest, I have no idea what that last sentence (“Although…”) is supposed to mean. These things won’t die easily because there is nothing that will ever stop people like Alex Jones screaming that Democrats drink baby blood. People believe him, and are loud about it. The fact that an idea shows no signs of dying out is not going to get me to believe it. (I’m a Taurus, after all.)

No victims coming forward.

Such a bad argument. Are you expecting an abused kid to file a police report? Look at Epstein’s Virginia Giuffre who is now 40! At least the guardian’s of the kids in the Instagram photos should have been questioned.

Bad argument? At least engage with it. You ask me to look to Epstein’s Virginia Giuffre. Who as you know, was a victim who came forward. This is the kind of evidence I’m asking for.

Please, and I mean it, please I want to see it, show me any pundit that “bunks” pizzagate talking-points that also said anything about Epstein before Giuffre’s public assertions.

There are no victims in pizzagate. What are you doing bringing Epstein into this? He was brought down by victims coming forward. The lack of evidence is no reason to point fingers.

No suspicious activity.

There was enough to send 4chan and reddit into a frenzy. I think you mean that there was no definitive proof.

Oh lordy. Was I dismissive of things that sent 4chan and reddit into a frenzy? I’m sorry. That must sting a bit. That is your best evidence so far.

The only thing interesting about pizzagate is how strongly people can hold on to beliefs with zero backing.

I thought the most interesting thing was how hard the pushback was. Pizza owners on the news, 10 min features on Colbert, NYT and Rolling Stone articles, banning of subreddits and censoring of search results. Try to find the steemit article I linked above. There was a well organised PR campaign against “nothing”.

We’re both just stating our opinions here. But I thought the pushback was perfectly inline. How else do you reach the kind of people who believe things based whatever they hear from pundits claiming to have secret knowledge?

I suspect some of the conclusions being drawn from highly circumstantial evidence were too close to the truth for some influential people’s comfort.

That’s very vague and spooky. Does it have a meaning?

I’m sure 99% of posts about pizzagate are LARPing really.

Initially all politicians were suspected (e.g. Hastert is republican). It turned into a right wing topic after qanon stoked the fires.

Wow. Bold of you to bring up another known pedophile. His downfall was the FBI seeing suspicious cash withdrawls. So who was that money going to? That’s right, a verified victim of molestation by Denny Hastert. You known, one of the (sorry to call them) characters I’d like to see in this pizzagate accusation. You only get to call Hastert a pedophile because a victim came forward.

And qanon stoking fires is another conspiracy point I will simply not engage with. Qanon is too unfounded for me.

In fact, I’d go as far as to say, the fact there is no evidence backing it up is precisely why this stuff is so dangerous.

True. On the other hand, vigilantism occurs when the police say they’ve investigated but actually haven’t. (Sorry impossible to back this statement in 2024. If you doubt me, find some official DC police reports unrelated to the gunman attack)

I live in America. That investigation went as far as it could before violating the rights of a private business owner. Your parry here truly shows how dangerous this is.

However, out in the dangerous part of the world, no one cares about this. It’s so fucking easy to dismiss this stuff. Why would anyone believe it?

It happened in Belgium, UK, France, Portugal etc. People there cared. Why not also in the US?

I’m sorry. I was being metaphorical here. When I said “out in the dangerous part of the world”, I was speaking for the POV of the fictional infowarrior. By the dangerous part of the world, I simply meant reality. Where people do not engage with these fear-mongers who actually proclaim that Democrats drink the blood of babies. Reality is where these baseless ideas and beliefs make one feel isolated. This is last I will engage here as I feel I’m being quoted out of context.

This feels like persecution, gaslighting, and like “they” are all in on it.

Podesta and Alefantis have certainly been persecuted by the Internet. And probably still are being 8 years later. Their no comment policy certainly backfired.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. It sounds like you are bragging about making peoples lives miserable based on nothing.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

Personally, I think we should move the conversation there since posting here feels like you’re trying to get more eyeballs on this stuff.

I’m indifferent. Not trying to grab eyeballs, just trying to find different angles on the topic. Anyone who claims it was debunked is interesting because they may have more knowledge than I (i.e. you and you podcasts). Post a thread and I’ll follow.

I find this stuff dangerous, and it’s usually best discussed in a more focused group.

We are discussing 8 year old emails and Instagram posts. Not planning an insurrection.

It contains the best evidence I’ve heard for Pizzagate.

The link I clicked quickly through was making fun of some Alex Jones contributors ordering pizza.

The fact that an idea shows no signs of dying out is not going to get me to believe it.

Agreed. My point was that continued claims of debunking don’t reduce interest in the subject.

Virginia Giuffre was a victim who came forward.

Only as a middle aged woman. Kids in the Instagram photos would now barely be over 10. You can’t use their silence as evidence.

What are you doing bringing Epstein into this?

I’m showing that sex trafficked people don’t often come forward. In Epstein’s case it took 20+ years.

any pundit that “bunks” pizzagate talking-points that also said anything about Epstein

Sorry. Not a claim or a point I’m defending.

There are no victims in pizzagate.

We have photos of some from Instagram.

That is your best evidence so far.

No, the. Best evidence is the steemit summary above. That made a LOT of people suspicious.

How else do you reach the kind of people who believe things based whatever they hear from pundits claiming to have secret knowledge?

The conspiracy crowd were not the target audience. You certainly don’t go through Colbert. It was pure Streisand effect.

That’s very vague and spooky. Does it have a meaning?

It was my attempt at explaining the massive national media campaign supporting a pizza shop owner against apparently ridiculous allegations. Protesting too much.

Wow. Bold of you to bring up another known pedophile.

Because he was republican and mentioned in friendly terms by Podesta. I’m dismissing the “right wing” tag that gets attached to pizzagate. Often via Qanon.

And qanon stoking fires is another conspiracy point I will simply not engage with. Qanon is too unfounded for me.

I think that is fair. Qanon came later. It should be separate but people often confuse the two.

That investigation went as far as it could before violating the rights of a private business owner

No. There was no investigation (sorry, no supporting evidence). “Private business owner” has nothing to do with suggestive Instagram posts involving children.

Where people do not engage with these fear-mongers who actually proclaim that Democrats drink the blood of babies.

Ah. So you aren’t saying this couldn’t happen. Just that you’d ignore anyone who pointed out if it was happening.

Why introduce "drink the blood of babies. "? Irrelevant hyperbole adds nothing.

I feel I’m being quoted out of context.

Sorry, not my goal. Just trying to make reading easier. Misquoting is pointless here.

It sounds like you are bragging about making peoples lives miserable based on nothing.

I’ve had no interaction with either.

You mentioned persecution and they have both been on the receiving end. However, if they had been investigated by law enforcement, or publicly addressed their accusations then there would be no persecution (or at least much less).

I assume you are in the debunked camp. Can I ask what makes you so sure there was nothing suspicious happening?

ook_the_librarian,
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

You said you’d listen to the podcast. I’m going to hold you to it. It’s a comedy show. And pizzagate is ridiculous. But you offered to argue their points. “they’re mean to my friends” isn’t going to cut it.

The best evidence for your claim is that link? Please read the FIRST paragraph and let’s discuss the reading level of The Emperor’s New Clothes.

I’ve read it pretty deeply now. You better start connecting some dots. There is too much secret sourcing.

I’m not even sure what “claims of debunking” you even mean. What even are the claims of pizzagate? That the emails are boring, but if you squint, you can pretend it’s a conspiracy. It’s the least interesting thing I’ve heard. What’s to engage with? There are no bodies. No victims. The crimes alleged must have victims. What court is going to convict anybody on these charges with no victims? Have the jury squint at instagram pics? Please give your argument some grounding.

I am not afraid of a lack of victims. The existence of victims would blow this wide open.

Please tell me of a historical case (aka in reality) where a pedo ring was busted with no known victims.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In, (edited )

pizzagate is ridiculous.

Depends which particular claim you are talking about.

  • Hillary locking up kids in a basement … ridiculous. This strawman was invented to be debunked.
  • A pizza restaurant owner with an unhealthy interest in kids … not ridiculous.

I’m not even sure what “claims of debunking” you even mean.

It means the claimer is 100% sure that a particular theory is false.

Flat Earth - debunked

Political figures discuss illegal topics over email using codewords - could be true

What even are the claims of pizzagate?

  • Pizza owner distributes CP from his restaurant website.
  • The Podestas talk in code over email.
  • Instagram was used to joke about child abuse.

What’s to engage with? There are no bodies. No victims. The crimes alleged must have victims.

You are 100% sure there are no victims?

Child services have interviewed the guardian’s of the girl taped to a table?

It is impossible that these people were discussing abusing kids?

To debunk a theory, that is what is needed.

What court is going to convict anybody on these charges with no victims? Have the jury squint at instagram pics? Please give your argument some grounding.

OK, this is never claimed. Investigations by law enforcement to find the required level of evidence to present to a court were never conducted. Why not?

Please tell me of a historical case (aka in reality) where a pedo ring was busted with no known victims.

Any where images are traded. Victims are unknown but unfortunately exist.

ook_the_librarian,
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

They interviewed a child that was taped to a table, huh?

You have made NO claims whatsoever. You asked what I thought. I said it was nothing. All you’ve said is everything that I say is wrong. I have no idea what you think pizzagate is.

So now that you FINALLY made a claim. Let’s talk about the girl taped to a table. Does this girl have a name? A picture. Please post the instagram of this poor child taped to a table. I bet the picture will send chills though all the spines of those that see it. POST THE PICTURE! Or I will. You certainly have provided me evidence of a child taped to a table. Can do you have a picture where she isn’t smiling?

Was she interviewed by the FBI? Is that your big, scary evidence? The thing that should open my eyes. Please provide evidence of this child that was taped to table. That’s a pretty BIG claim. Do you have a picture? I mean, I have one that you showed me. It had a warning above it how disturbing the picture is. Would you post so everyone can see how scary it is?

All you’ve said about pizzagate, is that I don’t know what pizzagate is. Is it that a child was taped to a table?

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In, (edited )

They interviewed a child that was taped to a table, huh?

No. Not that I’m aware of. Do you have more information?

You asked what I thought. I said it was nothing.

Are you certain it is nothing or is it probably nothing. If the former then I would like to know why.

Let’s talk about the girl taped to a table. Does this girl have a name?

Yes. The question of interest is, do child services know her name?

Please post the instagram of this poor child taped to a table.

It’s in the steemit summary linked above.

Can do you have a picture where she isn’t smiling?

So it’s not abuse if they enjoy it? Heard of normalisation?

All you’ve said about pizzagate, is that I don’t know what pizzagate is.

I don’t think I’ve said anything of the sort. You seem quite knowledgeable. However, if you are certain it has been debunked then you must be an expert.

ook_the_librarian, (edited )
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

Since knock_knock is too demure to show graphic content here, I will share the photo. These are the words above the photo in the document

Warning: some of these are pretty weird/sexual, probably best not to view at work

We might as well start with this picture of a girl taped to a table, which is probably the most widely referenced one.

spoilerhttps://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/7d9c614c-421b-41aa-b7ef-b59152012b72.png

THIS is the “most widely referenced” picture of all the pizzagate allegations. THIS is why it’s like pulling teeth to get a pizzagater to make ONE real claim. The emperor has no clothes. They are so proud of a mountain of nothing.

There is no one who is credibility alleged to have explicit material of this child. It is at this point where I am expected to appear to ask for this material. This could be a crime. Be careful. Look how fast this reply was locked-and-loaded.

Can do you have a picture where she isn’t smiling?

So it’s not abuse if they enjoy it? Heard of normalisation?

If you think that question is void now due to that retort, you are mistaken. Anyone reading along can see the photo now. You really should have tried to get ahead of that. I bet no one was picturing masking tape with the picture you created in words.

I have showed the only evidence provided that this child exists. Are there alleged to be other materials of this child that are objectionable? Is this a victim?

Virginia Giuffre was a victim who came forward.

Only as a middle aged woman. Kids in the Instagram photos would now barely be over 10. You can’t use their silence as evidence.

“You can’t use their silence as evidence.” What? They sound exactly like nonexistent victims. There must be a difference between real victims and nonexistent victims. Silence is clearly not a good measurement. Are there any other methods to look for them?

any pundit that “bunks” pizzagate talking-points that also said anything about Epstein

Sorry. Not a claim or a point I’m defending.

I know this isn’t a claim. It’s a point worth discussing. There are people in our society whose job is gain the trust of people by showing integrity. They are called journalists. A journalist knows that if a reader catches the whiff of dishonesty, they lose that reader permanently.

So a journalist with a long, track-able career is who is best equipped to make such sensitive accusations. This is usually how rings would get busted. So who is putting their career on the line for this? Is Mike Cernovich the point-person on these matters? These accusations are dangerous. Your dismal of that is sickening, but I’ll come back to that later.

I’m not even sure what “claims of debunking” you even mean.

It means the claimer is 100% sure that a particular theory is false

This is the worst framing of epistemology I’ve seen. You are quite literally turning every argument in a “confidence game”. Surely you see that the world can’t function like that.

But I will give you this, you finally connected the dots in a way that I see how pizzagate is real.

We’ve had too many exchanges before I finally can see what pizzagate actually is.

Pizzagate: The believe that real world damage can be caused simply by never admitting any harmless explanations regardless of plausibility.

The fucked up thing here, is that with this formulation, Pizzagate is true.

1.) The only thing that little girl’s guardians did was upload a photo of the aftermath of child’s play.

2.) Now, 4chan enters the scene. 4chan and reddit simply make up ANYTHING they want to accuse these people of. Consequence free. There is no journalist in the loop. There are no stakes. You get federal authorities to harass strangers. And you are proud of it.

3.) THEN this visit is now “evidence”. You keep pointing to police action, like it’s suspicious, but 4chan did that shit. I don’t know who you are fooling, but it isn’t me.

These three dots are what you connected. You have convinced me it’s real. It’s scary. It’s sick that people would do this.

You can claim it’s about protecting kids, but there have been no rescues or even calls for help.

Here’s from Wikipedia

On December 4, 2016, Edgar Maddison Welch, a 28-year-old man from Salisbury, North Carolina, arrived at Comet Ping Pong and fired three shots from an AR-15 style rifle that struck the restaurant’s walls, a desk, and a door.

Welch was there to liberate victims. Who did he avenge? Who is lucky that Welch was there to listen to the cries of help that 4chan told him exist?

I find this stuff dangerous, and it’s usually best discussed in a more focused group.

We are discussing 8 year old emails and Instagram posts. Not planning an insurrection.

Three bullets are what I’m calling dangerous, sicko. You know what is happening. You know the bullets were real.

You seem very proud that the feds were sent to investigate this. That seems to be a claim of victory. It’s disturbing. There was no foundation. You just hate these people. It’s unpleasant to say the least. You’re proud you can imagine such horrible things happening. You don’t even need proof. And you just want the world to hate these people like you do, and based on as flimsy shit as you accept as proof.

I’m done here. Pizzagate sucks. You can come bother me at /c/knowledgefight.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

THIS is why it’s like pulling teeth to get a pizzagater to make ONE real claim.

I gave you 3 claims, and you picked your own 4th.

It is at this point where I am expected to appear to ask for this material. This could be a crime. Be careful. Look how fast this reply was locked-and-loaded.

Ah, now I see why you were so weirdly desperate for me to post that particular photo. You had a narrative needing to be fulfilled. Sorry to disappoint.

Are there alleged to be other materials of this child that are objectionable?

Yes, and they haven’t been acted upon either.

Is this a victim?

Potentially, yes. How are you imagining this kid “coming forward” to the authorities?

Silence is clearly not a good measurement. Are there any other methods to look for them?

Yep. By photos posted online by their abusers. By having child services interview their guardians.

Theses accusations are dangerous.

And should have been handled by the police. They weren’t.

There is no one who is credibility alleged to have explicit material of this child.

No-one claimed this either. Debunkers love to invent strawmen to attack.

1.) The only thing that little girl’s guardians did was upload a photo of the aftermath of child’s play.

Your favourite picture is far from the only suspicious Instagram post/comment

You get federal authorities to harass strangers.

Literally their job. And they point is they weren’t doing it.

sicko.

You are the one defending the guy with a “members only” file share on his website who makes child abuse jokes on Instagram.

based on as flimsy shit as you accept as proof.

This applies equally to debunkers who think “no basement” is proof that pizzagate is false.

I’m not convinced any part of pizzagate is real, but you (and other debunkers) are convinced it is 100% fake. That’s what is interesting.

Pizzagate debunkers are just as fervently irrational as the unquestioning gun toting believers.

ook_the_librarian, (edited )
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

THIS is why it’s like pulling teeth to get a pizzagater to make ONE real claim.

I gave you 3 claims, and you picked your own 4th.

Would you like me to read one of those 3 claims?

Instagram was used to joke about child abuse.

So let’s see we’re YOU are finding this instagram stuff. Hmm…

No, the. Best evidence is the steemit summary above. That made a LOT of people suspicious

Ok, we know where your BEST evidence is. Let’s figure out this instagram claim.

Here are the times YOU brought up Instagram:

At least the guardian’s of the kids in the Instagram photos should have been questioned.

We are discussing 8 year old emails and Instagram posts.

Virginia Giuffre was a victim who came forward.

Only as a middle aged woman. Kids in the Instagram photos would now barely be over 10.

There are no victims in pizzagate.

We have photos of some from Instagram.

That investigation went as far as it could before violating the rights of a private business owner

No. There was no investigation (sorry, no supporting evidence). “Private business owner” has nothing to do with suggestive Instagram posts involving children.

You talk a lot about instagram for someone who finds the FIRST instagram picture from your GOLDEN source embarrassing. Here, I’ll add context. I’ll expand the crop. And let see what this fear-mongering document says…

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d1022a49-00e8-4299-88ab-4ecc90cd9b3e.png

It’s the “most widely referenced one”. YOU are the one pointing to internet “frenzies” as evidence. An internet frenzy was whipped up about this ONE picture in particular. There are no other pictures related to this child. YOU are claiming the other photos are connected.

Adding more context makes the evidence look WORSE.

Also notice that the simple explanation isn’t good enough: “please let me know if there are more”. They want another explanation because then “see, they’re changing their story”. For some reason they want the reader to be suspicious of only ONE explanation. Reality works in a strange way for people who think like this.

Then every pizzagater ever says, “that’s why you picked THAT photo. Of course the one my opponent chooses one that makes me look silly. They won’t show you the other stuff I sent them. Please read the first paragraph at least, where it says if you don’t see EVERYTHING, you’ll be too ignorant to know the truth.”

They are always saying “look at everything. but don’t look at anything.”

The only claim I made is that I have seen no proof of illegal activity. There are plenty of times in my life where I have seen proof of illegal activity. It’s a pretty common thing to see on the news. I don’t see why I should worry about people who have weird tastes in art. I see a lot of mixing pizza, weird art, and sex in that doc, but not kids. I’m worried about one who see that photo as normalization of child abuse. (Here is where that claim of “I’m not claiming THAT photo is what i’m talking about. don’t you see how vague i’m being. look at everything” This is 30-Rock’s “Homonym Game” www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZLkcFns8Ks )

Seeing a girl smiling with masking tape on her arms does NOT look like normalization [i use US spelling]

Can do you have a picture where she isn’t smiling?

So it’s not abuse if they enjoy it? Heard of normalisation?

You are either being very disingenuous here, or you find that image stirring. I do not want to accuse you of anything, but the reason I want a journalist in the loop is because every pizzagater with any sizable voice is WITHOUT FAIL either (a) trying to convince people (including themselves) that SA material of minors is more common than it is or (b) very homophobic.

The document you provided is teeming with homophobia.

I am implementing a new rule. I will not engage with pizzagate arguments with people unless they pledge: “There is a gay person in my life that I love, and they live a meaningful, fulfilling life.” That’s probably not hard. Honestly, I don’t care if you know them personally.

If you can’t do that, I’d rather deal with a more serious mind virus.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

You talk a lot about instagram

Because that is where Alefantis posted.

There are no other pictures related to this child.

There are more. E.g. wearing a “pizza slut” t-shirt.

YOU are claiming the other photos are connected.

Yes. Alefantis commented on most or is connected via his restaurant.

Also notice that the simple explanation isn’t good enough

If you want to claim a slamdunk debunk then the simple explanation must be the only explanation, or the suspicious explanation is shown to be impossible.

Your “debunk” falls far short.

The only claim I made is that I have seen no proof of illegal activity.

You claimed pizzagate is absolute garbage. That it was debunked.

2 dudes on a street correr and a BMW parked nearby is not proof of illegal activity. But it is suspicious. You want the police to check it out.

I’m worried about one who see that photo as normalization of child abuse.

Dude, you’re the one obsessed with this particular photo.

“There is a gay person in my life that I love, and they live a meaningful, fulfilling life.” Send your gay strawman away.

ook_the_librarian,
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

Please remove the quotation marks. That’s not how words work.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

There is a gay person in my life that I love, and they live a meaningful, fulfilling life. I love gays. Great fun.

What I don’t like seeing them being irrelevantly dragged into arguments in an attempt to distract and score cheap points.

This has nothing to do with showing that the claims made by pizzagate are impossible.

ook_the_librarian,
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

Cool. There are gay people I love too. Wouldn’t change a thing about them.

Dude, you’re the one obsessed with this particular photo.

Sure am. You see someone showed it to me in a document they linked. They called the dossier the best evidence of pizzagate. That dossier has this particular photo. It even said “We might as well start with this picture of a girl taped to a table, which is probably the most widely referenced one.” Of course, that " girl taped to a table" was standing on the floor with her arms affixed to a table with masking tape, and not even a lot of tape.

That photo sure stirred up a frenzy. My claim was that anytime anything that is purported to be concrete evidence is investigated, it sure looks like nothing upon inspection. The pizzagater always plays the Homonym Game. “I was talking about a different photo?” Well, I’m talking about this photo.

So if you argue that frenzies show there must be something happening, I will point to THIS picture. Because it is THIS that picture that by itself caused a frenzy. Read the words around the picture. Then read my proposal of the only definition of pizzagate i can agree with

Pizzagate: The believe that real world damage can be caused simply by never admitting any harmless explanations regardless of plausibility.

So 4chan decides to use Pizzagate as a weapon to sick on this shop owner and his friends and family. It fits just fine.

You act like I’m cherry-picking, because you know most people aren’t going to check, and the kinds of people that do check don’t fall for this shit.

Well, that piece of “evidence” is clearly trash. Anyone trying to sell it to me thinks I’m stupid. Why would I bother?

Do you have a dossier that does NOT include wastes of time?

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

They called the dossier the best evidence of pizzagate.

Did they? It’s not a bad introduction but voat had much better documentation.

That dossier has this particular photo.

Again? Let’s discuss this one instead.

Well, I’m talking about this photo.

The photo is not illegal, but it is suspicious, especially when combined with Alefantis’ other posts.

Because it is THIS that picture that by itself caused a frenzy.

See. You have to add in and highlight “by itself”.

So 4chan decides …

4chan didn’t make him post suggestive comments or host suspicious files on his website.

Well, that piece of “evidence” is clearly trash.

You have failed to make this argument clearly.

Do you have a dossier that does NOT include wastes of time?

So one item labeled a waste of time allows you to disregard the rest. This is a repeat of the “no basement=debunked” argument.

Pizzagate debunkers are just as illogical as Pizzagate true believers.

ook_the_librarian,
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not talking about another photo. You have a mountain of evidence. Please edit out any trash designed to waste time. That picture is a pretty clear litmus test. I’m not stupid enough to be scared of that photo. If you think I am, this will not go anywhere.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

I’m not talking about another photo.

Then you aren’t going to debunk them.

Please edit out any trash designed to waste time.

If you had been able to debunk pizzagate this step would not be necessary.

That picture is a pretty clear litmus test.

Sadly I think I agree.

I’m not stupid enough to be scared of that photo.

I’m not really interested in measuring how stupid you are.

ook_the_librarian,
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not really interested in measuring how stupid you are.

Then what are you even doing here? Honestly. You asked if my favorite podcast had a pizzagate episode.

I said, i don’t think so. I’ll ask others. I don’t like talking about pizzagate because every claim is dumb. I said:

The only thing interesting about pizzagate is how strongly people can hold on to beliefs with zero backing

In fact, I’d go as far as to say, the fact there is no evidence backing it up is precisely why this stuff is so dangerous. If some one is mentally unsteady enough to accept any reason to hate their enemies, they are probably pretty dangerous to be around already. Now use a massive media operation so that person need no other source of news. He (sorry to be sexist, but I’m going to stick with “he” for the easily influenced viewer’s pronoun) knows he’s right. He hears nothing but that he is right. However, out in the dangerous part of the world [to clarify, i mean reality i meant to put quotes], no one cares about this. It’s so fucking easy to dismiss this stuff. Why would anyone believe it?

None of that has changed. The more I say, the more you shift and want me to look elsewhere. It’s clear to me that anyone who could read that doc and not be embarrassed that they are trying to spook you with that picture, is not worth engaging with.

You picked out me saying “no victims coming forward”. You know there’s still not any, right? No matter how many different things you tell me. You called it a “bad argument”. I’m not here to argue. You brought this shit up. It’s not an argument. It’s a fact. You can keep claiming not to make an claims. But facts are facts. Calling them “arguments” makes them sound like they can be “bad”. Nope. I said a fact, and you took personally.

So you link some homophobic shit. i don’t want to read that. There’s some horrible allegations that if some unhinged individual who has a fuzzy notion of epistemology reads, things could get and have gotten ugly.

Your lies are consequence free. Is there anyone (journalist, pundit,…) with a reputation to protect that says anything about this?

If you had been able to debunk pizzagate this step would not be necessary.

Can you show where I had expressed any desire to debunk this? This might be my first use of the word in this thread.

I said it’s not interesting. I haven’t seen any claim attached to anything concrete. Why would I engage? I’m not a witness.

The only document you have has claims that no one can be serious about. I’m asking you to remove those. You’re just wasting my time.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

You asked if my favorite podcast had a pizzagate episode.

Yes. Thanks for that. Sincerely.

I don’t like talking about pizzagate because every claim is dumb.

A lazy, blanket statement leading to this lengthy thread.

The only thing interesting about pizzagate is how strongly people can hold on to beliefs with zero backing

It’s also interesting how claims that it was debunked dissolve when examined.

the fact there is no evidence backing it up

I linked to some evidence. It’s hard to do so now that search engines have been scrubbed and voat has died.

Why would anyone believe it?

Because the claims are not impossible, or even unlikely.

The more I say, the more you shift and want me to look elsewhere.

At the beginning I gave you the NYT and a steemit link with additional evidence. Nothing has shifted.

You link some homophobic shit. It’s clear to me that anyone who could read that doc and not be embarrassed that they are trying to spook you with that picture, is not worth engaging with.

I didn’t write it. There are not a lot of other options that search engines index. Just view the pictures if the text offends you.

Your lies are consequence free.

All the linked evidence is factual. I’ve not drawn any conclusions. Not sure what I could have lied about.

Is there anyone (journalist, pundit,…) with a reputation to protect that says anything about this?

This was the closest

Can you show where I had expressed any desire to debunk this?

Whenever you state that every pizzagate claim is dumb.

The only document you have has claims that no one can be serious about. I’m asking you to remove those.

Ok. I’ll remove everything from that document except for this

ook_the_librarian,
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

Is there anyone (journalist, pundit,…) with a reputation to protect that says anything about this?

This was the closest

No one will touch this with a 10-foot pole. People that the pizzagaters victimized have been hurt, and some of the worst offenders of the conspiracy theory were arrested. No one will put a stake on this.

All the people that used to talk about this have disappeared. There once was a rush when people were talking about that document. Adding new threads. Making connections. This was going to be it. But nothing came.

I believe you may be chasing a high that was at its peak when it looked like pieces were coming together.

Everything fizzled. Now you’re trying to get strangers worried about a list of files. It’s not the same.

The emperor has no clothes here. No one else will put their reputation on the line.

I’m sure you have people in your life that you get along fine with. This is, provide no one brings this up. That has to feel isolating. Most people have moved on.

I was being honest. I’m not interested in pizzagate. But I have heard from so many people describing what it was like to have once believed it. And what it felt like when they were able to reconnect with people who pushed them away.

Obviously, I don’t know you. You’re fine to tell me I’m way off base. We’re strangers here, but it’s just food for irl-thought.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

People that the pizzagaters victimized have been hurt, and some of the worst offenders of the conspiracy theory were arrested.

One crazy person has been jailed. No-one was hurt. All because the police failed to investigate.

All the people that used to talk about this have disappeared.

Because there is nothing new to talk about. Although if someone had done a thorough debunking then that would be new information of interest.

I believe you may be chasing a high that was at its peak when it looked like pieces were coming together.

This may be true for people searching the Internet and finding clues. Crowdsourced Sherlock Holmes. I only got interested when the crackdown happened, subreddits were closed and journalists silenced. Then claims of debunking popped up (usually without logical argument).

Debunking is much more interesting, scientific and rigorous than the actual conspiracies. James Randi, moon landings, aliens, 9/11. You learn a lot from a good debunk (hence my interest in your favourite podcast)

Now you’re trying to get strangers worried about a list of files.

No, I’m trying to establish if it has been debunked. That there is no possibility of truth in the claims.

If you said pizzagate was unlikely, dubious or unconfirmed then I would agree and we wouldn’t be having this exchange.

The emperor has no clothes here.

Neither do the debunkers following behind.

ook_the_librarian,
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

Did you ever used to post at 4chan?

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

No. Too difficult to follow conversations. My exposure has been 2nd hand by reddit or reformed text

ook_the_librarian,
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

i used to post on 4chan all the time. the hard to follow part was a feature. It let’s you see only the good stuff in a way that’s hard to explain, but I’ll try.

The fun of 4chan is that everyone is full of shit. In fact, there posts about how much shit everyone else is full of. It’s fun.

So how do you have fun on 4chan? It’s easy. You lie. You’re anonymous. It’s consequence free.

It’s been said that people like “bad jokes” because jokes split the room into two groups: those that get it and those that don’t. A “bad joke” has a very forced punchline so that everyone gets the joke. There is no split in the room. Everyone hates the joke together.

A lie on 4chan splits the readership. Those that are ready to debunk anything. And those that “yes, and…”

The “bad lies” were no fun. Easy debunk, no one elaborating. The other lies were the fun ones.

The debunking group is the loudest, most numerous, and had tons of fun. There were infographics on how to tell if the user was pretending to be two different people (“samef–”). There were infographics on how to see photoshop artifacts. All kinds of good skeptical reasoning and debunking tools. The debunkers proved the liars lied.

The debunkers would share huge greentext png files of reformated text laying out how full of shit that all the liars are.

The other group had a different kind of fun. They found that if they see an obvious lie, they “yes, and…”. That’s an improv cliche that means you fully accept the OP’s premise and develop it fuller yourself.

Wrestling fans would call it “kayfabe”. Horror fiction on reddit has “nosleep” rules. It’s in general, a willful supension of disbelief. These are “metarules” in a sense. They are rules saying it’s against the rules to mention the rules.

Of course the yes-anders got debunked to hell and back. There are all kinds of greentext proving it.

But, the yes-anders shared greentext too. They had huge pngs full of undebunked truth. It was easy to do. It’s all lies, and they are editing this huge png files. They just leave off an debunking.

Is it really that easy to just cut out the debunking? Wouldn’t it just be easy to check?

HELL NO. That’s the fucking point of 4chan.

Too difficult to follow conversations. My exposure has been 2nd hand by reddit or reformed text

It is IMPOSSIBLE to follow conversations. Everyone is only responding to what they came to see. There’s no “I’ll get back to that”. You got to spew your shit while the shit is flying. Or you miss the fun.

This is where the debunkers always lose. There is just too much shit to debunk.

People reform the text into the png files I was mentioning. Put out a mountain of stuff. IGNORE ALL CONTRAPOINTS. And there are some people that believe them. When I said

I’m sure 99% of posts about pizzagate are LARPing really. (I think the same of Flat Earth. At least, way back when.)

I mean, they are the yes-anders. The people pretending to believe it because its fun to watch people try to debunk things when they never admit other, plausible explanations. I would have to say that the “99%” figure is an uneducated statement, so your guess is as good as mine.

But there are those that see this spread without any debunking because the debunking is lost. And anyone that tried was driven crazy by people pretending not to understand. So it’s now an echo chamber of those that fell for it.

4chan was fun. I’m glad I quit.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

The only time 4chan /pol caught my attention was when FBIanon posted about the Clinton foundation. I thought it was a fun LARP, then Bill Clinton has a clandestine airplane meeting with Loretta Lynch.

But given that nothing has happened to the Clinton foundation I would accept that FBIanon has been debunked.

some_guy,

Omg, you’re one of them! Lol. Take me to your magic kingdom.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

One of who?

some_guy,

Pizzagater.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

You misunderstand.

My position is not that pizzagate is true.

It’s that people claiming it is certainly false are misinformed and illogical.

some_guy,

Oh, you mean you’re a dumbass. Noted.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In,

No. I’m logical.

Dumbasses are people who draw certain conclusions from incomplete data. Like people who claim pizzagate was debunked.

some_guy,

You’re right. Lemme grab my cammo and guns and we’ll go rescue those kids. I’ll meet you on the corner.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In, (edited )

Neither extreme is defensible

Subverb,

Oh, haven’t heard of it. I’ll check it out. The Some Dare guys are pretty informal and raw, but they seem like guys you’d want to have a pint with if you met them in the UK. One if them is a rapper and the other is a death metal guy but they’re both pretty smart.

They talk about that actually. About how they think to get really deep into conspiracy theories it helps to be a creative type because you kind of have to be to get so far up everything’s butt and see such tenuous connections everywhere.

ook_the_librarian,
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

I’m very excited. Thank you. KF plus British accents sounds so fucking good to me.

Jakeroxs,

I’m a policy wonk!

This, Q Anon Anonymous and Behind the Bastards were my favorite podcasts for a while.

some_guy,

QAA is absolutely brilliant reporting. Liv Agar’s ep on superfascism was so great that I had to listen to it three times to make sure I absorbed everything. The interview with Marcus Gilroy-Ware, in which the author makes the case that we live in a fake democracy, was similarly mind-expanding. I tried to listen to Liv’s personal podcast, but she’s too smart for me. It required more active-listening that I want when enjoying a podcast rather than being relaxing. Big brained af.

Jakeroxs,

Sadly I haven’t listened in around 4 years now, I should get back into it. I was relatively early though as I remember talking to friends/family about this crazy thing called q Anon before there was any news coverage.

ook_the_librarian,
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

I’m getting info-dumped by a pizzagater elsewhere in this thread in case you want to join the fun. I bet you’re better equipped.

Carlo,

Just wanted to drop a rec for Oh No, Ross and Carrie! It’s a long-running podcast where the hosts go undercover to investigate all sorts of fringe theories, cults, alternative medicines, etc. They’re very professional; highly recommend it.

ook_the_librarian,
@ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

I love that show. Although I’m admittedly a lapsed fan, I was listening to them on my walks to grad school in 2013 or so.

Incidentally, I love looking for Ross Blocher’s name in Pixar credits.

So digging way back in the memory machine, I can even remember hearing Carrie on the inKredulous podcast from 2012. I think that might be when I started listening to her and Ross’s show.

That show was from what I consider the glorious lo-fi days of podcasting. I’m not even going to listen back to it to see if it holds up before posting.

Carlo,

That is a blast from the past! I actually didn’t start listening to ONRAC regularly until pretty recently—although it feels like longer, since I’ve been hearing their promos on other Maxfun shows for years. Circa late 2016-2020, I had a pretty strict embargo on any entertainment that made me dwell on how god-awful things were–or just seemed like it might—so it took me a good long while to get around to listening.

xc2215x,

He is a shameful human being. Nothing else to say here.

psycho_driver,

I’d classify him as a big fleshbag of bacon grease moreso than a human.

unreasonabro,

Well I’m glad I didn’t buy that, I didn’t know he was actually associated with it financially. Figured it was the right kind of joke, not something tacky, tasteless, and stupid

tocopherol,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

When I was looking through the discussion hub for it there are so many banned accounts lol. It’s a ‘joke’ only as much as people say they were joking when they say ‘jews control the media’ or something, it’s full of racist memes.

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